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00:00:43,173\n委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波\n\n3\n00:00:49,005 --> 00:01:01,975\n不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大\n\n4\n00:01:11,467 --> 00:01:29,289\n這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多\n\n5\n00:01:31,297 --> 00:01:54,492\n我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過\n\n6\n00:01:56,073 --> 00:02:23,744\n我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被\n\n7\n00:02:24,504 --> 00:02:41,849\n整個離岸風電產業大家認為是923之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對\n\n8\n00:02:44,224 --> 00:02:44,924\n報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的\n\n9\n00:03:13,539 --> 00:03:38,226\n那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎\n\n10\n00:03:39,226 --> 00:04:05,837\n對這個就是有很多包括菲律賓我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的嘛所以那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的\n\n11\n00:04:06,477 --> 00:04:26,938\n中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能\n\n12\n00:04:27,918 --> 00:04:42,048\n報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你\n\n13\n00:04:42,768 --> 00:05:08,159\n你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來最後溝通就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候你就覺得說台灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項狀態那你今天也特別提到了非核不是神主牌那針對這個部分因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論\n\n14\n00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:11,900\n目前有在努力嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:40,274 --> 00:05:52,735\n我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在明天應該都有在討論\n\n16\n00:05:54,124 --> 00:06:22,478\nOK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是指說民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買\n\n17\n00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:27,381\n報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜\n\n18\n00:06:39,229 --> 00:06:39,429\n好的\n\n19\n00:07:02,998 --> 00:07:27,810\n好那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之13之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明\n\n20\n00:07:29,056 --> 00:07:50,961\n報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些\n\n21\n00:07:56,414 --> 00:08:21,741\n得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣子\n\n22\n00:08:22,321 --> 00:08:22,541\n沒有,我們是協助他\n\n23\n00:08:40,945 --> 00:08:51,708\n針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標其實能夠達到\n\n24\n00:08:54,352 --> 00:08:54,973\n執行委員．\n\n25\n00:09:24,212 --> 00:09:27,414\n政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場\n\n26\n00:09:46,266 --> 00:10:05,506\n我們希望增加國內的競爭力三之二算不算未來的暗場還是算已經發生的暗場?三之三三之三之後才算未來的暗場嘛對不對?ok好很清楚所以三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是ok好\n\n27\n00:10:06,547 --> 00:10:29,676\n謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠\n\n28\n00:10:32,359 --> 00:10:35,693\n所以我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的一個說明是謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10174\t12330\t謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長\n20186\t43173\t委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波\n49005\t61975\t不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大\n71467\t89289\t這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多\n91297\t114492\t我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過\n116073\t143744\t我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被\n144504\t161849\t整個離岸風電產業大家認為是923之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對\n164224\t164924\t報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的\n193539\t218226\t那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎\n219226\t245837\t對 這個就是有很多包括菲律賓 我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的嘛所以 那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的\n246477\t266938\t中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能\n267918\t282048\t報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你\n282768\t308159\t你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來最後溝通就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候你就覺得說台灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項狀態那你今天也特別提到了非核不是神主牌那針對這個部分因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論\n311240\t311900\t目前有在努力嗎?\n340274\t352735\t我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在明天應該都有在討論\n354124\t382478\tOK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是指說民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買\n384439\t387381\t報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜\n399229\t399429\t好的\n422998\t447810\t好 那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之1 3之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明\n449056\t470961\t報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些\n476414\t501741\t得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣子\n502321\t502541\t沒有,我們是協助他\n520945\t531708\t針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標其實能夠達到\n534352\t534973\t執行委員．\n564212\t567414\t政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場\n586266\t605506\t我們希望增加國內的競爭力三之二算不算未來的暗場還是算已經發生的暗場?三之三三之三之後才算未來的暗場嘛對不對?ok好很清楚所以三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是ok好\n606547\t629676\t謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠\n632359\t635693\t所以我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的一個說明是 謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長\n委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波\n不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大\n這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多\n我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過\n我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被\n整個離岸風電產業大家認為是923之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對\n報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的\n那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎\n對 這個就是有很多包括菲律賓 我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的嘛所以 那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的\n中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能\n報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你\n你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來最後溝通就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候你就覺得說台灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項狀態那你今天也特別提到了非核不是神主牌那針對這個部分因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論\n目前有在努力嗎?\n我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在明天應該都有在討論\nOK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是指說民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買\n報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜\n好的\n好 那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之1 3之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明\n報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些\n得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣子\n沒有,我們是協助他\n針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標其實能夠達到\n執行委員．\n政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場\n我們希望增加國內的競爭力三之二算不算未來的暗場還是算已經發生的暗場?三之三三之三之後才算未來的暗場嘛對不對?ok好很清楚所以三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是ok好\n謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠\n所以我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的一個說明是 謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.174 --> 00:12.330\n謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長\n\n00:20.186 --> 00:43.173\n委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波\n\n00:49.005 --> 01:01.975\n不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大\n\n01:11.467 --> 01:29.289\n這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多\n\n01:31.297 --> 01:54.492\n我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過\n\n01:56.073 --> 02:23.744\n我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被\n\n02:24.504 --> 02:41.849\n整個離岸風電產業大家認為是923之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對\n\n02:44.224 --> 02:44.924\n報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的\n\n03:13.539 --> 03:38.226\n那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎\n\n03:39.226 --> 04:05.837\n對這個就是有很多包括菲律賓我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的嘛所以那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的\n\n04:06.477 --> 04:26.938\n中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能\n\n04:27.918 --> 04:42.048\n報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你\n\n04:42.768 --> 05:08.159\n你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來最後溝通就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候你就覺得說台灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項狀態那你今天也特別提到了非核不是神主牌那針對這個部分因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論\n\n05:11.240 --> 05:11.900\n目前有在努力嗎?\n\n05:40.274 --> 05:52.735\n我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在明天應該都有在討論\n\n05:54.124 --> 06:22.478\nOK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是指說民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買\n\n06:24.439 --> 06:27.381\n報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜\n\n06:39.229 --> 06:39.429\n好的\n\n07:02.998 --> 07:27.810\n好那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之13之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明\n\n07:29.056 --> 07:50.961\n報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些\n\n07:56.414 --> 08:21.741\n得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣子\n\n08:22.321 --> 08:22.541\n沒有,我們是協助他\n\n08:40.945 --> 08:51.708\n針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標其實能夠達到\n\n08:54.352 --> 08:54.973\n執行委員．\n\n09:24.212 --> 09:27.414\n政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場\n\n09:46.266 --> 10:05.506\n我們希望增加國內的競爭力三之二算不算未來的暗場還是算已經發生的暗場?三之三三之三之後才算未來的暗場嘛對不對?ok好很清楚所以三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是ok好\n\n10:06.547 --> 10:29.676\n謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠\n\n10:32.359 --> 10:35.693\n所以我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的一個說明是謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.174,"end":12.33,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":20.186,"end":43.173,"text":"委員好部長好我想說今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比的現行的執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心而且今天開始漲電價我想部長你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在我們的電費漲了多少你知道嗎包含這一波"},{"start":49.005,"end":61.975,"text":"不知道我直接跟你講因為時間有限從蔡英文上來之後她是說這10年內都不會漲電價不會大漲電價可是我們平均起來整個平均漲電價已經35.43%產業用電漲了52.36%部長你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大"},{"start":71.467,"end":89.289,"text":"這個部分我想這個我們還是考慮到了就是說在整個競爭的要件上面我們讓我們國內的這個用電負責他可以承受的範圍裡面你簡單就是說你覺得這長途算不算大簡單回應就可以因為今天要問的問題很多"},{"start":91.297,"end":114.492,"text":"我們的漲幅跟日本韓國比還是低的所以你覺得還不算大所以之後還可能會漲更多是這個潛在的語言的意思是這樣子嗎報告委員沒有這個意思那我覺得沒關係基本上已經漲了52點多%對產業界來講那你覺得漲的還不算比日韓還沒有他們那麼高那聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲不過"},{"start":116.073,"end":143.744,"text":"我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講只是我們擔心那我在想說我今天要講三個主要的問題都跟您是從企業界轉到經濟部長其實有點關係第一個就是針對旅送經濟走廊這個部分在菲律賓發電的問題這第一個第二個是你在我們的專報當中今天的專報當中你直接提到了一個非和不是神主牌你很具體的寫這個東西那第三個部分就是在923的時候我被"},{"start":144.504,"end":161.849,"text":"整個離岸風電產業大家認為是923之亂的一個部分就國產化鬆綁的問題那這三個部分我覺得它有一個很大的關鍵第一個是可能部長來自於企業界所以你有些創意所以你包括剛你在講菲律賓這個事情你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段對不對"},{"start":164.224,"end":164.924,"text":"報告委員,綠電的部分我們是夠的"},{"start":193.539,"end":218.226,"text":"那我現在的意思就是說這個是屬於這個民主同盟的國家大家要互相的這個協助那麼朝2050年能夠靈探這樣的一個目標所以這個命題其實在一般的這個論述上面一般的這個所以你的意思是說如果是台灣綠電是夠的所以到飛雲去開發綠電的時候不一定要到台灣用你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":219.226,"end":245.837,"text":"對 這個就是有很多包括菲律賓 我想大家很多委員都指教說菲律賓其實電是不夠的嘛所以 那如果是這個部分我在這裡就打住如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用的時候那我就特別關心台灣的電到底夠不夠所以我本來在想的狀態是因為你提到用海底電要用到船來運這個電的部分的時候我本來在想說離台灣最近的"},{"start":246.477,"end":266.938,"text":"中國大陸才150公里左右而且是到新竹離科學園區很近如果是因為綠電不夠的時候我覺得這是一個考慮的方向我覺得如果說是以部長企業界的來思考這個問題也許可能會更有彈性而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架是不是有這個可能"},{"start":267.918,"end":282.048,"text":"報告委員這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題所以台灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題我想這個謝謝這個委員的這個指教這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你"},{"start":282.768,"end":308.159,"text":"你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來最後溝通就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候你就覺得說台灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項狀態那你今天也特別提到了非核不是神主牌那針對這個部分因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中有60幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題可是我知道在賴總統他的一個氣味變遷的一個委員會裡面也在討論"},{"start":311.24,"end":311.9,"text":"目前有在努力嗎?"},{"start":340.274,"end":352.735,"text":"我們當然是這個我想不管這個我們自己經濟部啊或者是能源署啊或者是我們都要了解全民的這個意思我想這個命題在明天應該都有在討論"},{"start":354.124,"end":382.478,"text":"OK那我這邊特別提一個點就是因為部長你講的一句話就會引起大家很大的一個關注包括菲律賓這件事情所以我特別提一個狀態就是說如果說我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要台灣使用而是指說民主同盟這邊更大的一個目標去做的時候那我自己原本在想的狀態是說如果說在菲律賓台灣去開發綠電我們是不是直接買"},{"start":384.439,"end":387.381,"text":"報告委員如果用HE100來講就是沒有那條纜"},{"start":399.229,"end":399.429,"text":"好的"},{"start":422.998,"end":447.81,"text":"好 那我接下來要提一個狀態就是針對離岸風電923之亂那因為923之亂之後我因為離岸風電其實3之1 3之2很清楚大家有國產化的一個需求那現在我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到3之1是確定不會再做任何的調整國產化會堅持對不對3之2的部分呢可不可以做一下說明"},{"start":449.056,"end":470.961,"text":"報告委員三次案我們是就既有的這個條件這個通案管理那個案可以協助通案管理是什麼意思因為三次案的部分在今年7月份已經完成競筆了雖然還沒有正式簽約約還沒有簽可是這個競筆都已經完成了我們是要從頭來做過嗎還是之後會給這些"},{"start":476.414,"end":501.741,"text":"得標的廠商會有什麼樣子的一個彈性?可不可以具體做個說明?得標的廠商他就是得標了嘛那我們現在是約束他就要求他一定要在時間內完工這樣子如果他能夠提早我們可以協助他我們希望他能夠提早他可以協助他就他提早的部分怎麼提早這個是我們需要的所以我們可以協助他這樣子"},{"start":502.321,"end":502.541,"text":"沒有,我們是協助他"},{"start":520.945,"end":531.708,"text":"針對這個部分我要特別提一下因為事實上針對國產化的需求的時候我們其實有一個很大的一個目標我們希望的目標其實能夠達到"},{"start":534.352,"end":534.973,"text":"執行委員．"},{"start":564.212,"end":567.414,"text":"政府已經承諾的事情一定會基於信賴原則我們會實施但是在未來的案場"},{"start":586.266,"end":605.506,"text":"我們希望增加國內的競爭力三之二算不算未來的暗場還是算已經發生的暗場?三之三三之三之後才算未來的暗場嘛對不對?ok好很清楚所以三之二的部分基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行對不對?是ok好"},{"start":606.547,"end":629.676,"text":"謝謝以上那我在講說今天漲電價我們希望就是經濟部跟台電一起合作其實讓整個台灣的電真的是夠的雖然你一直表示說我們的電夠綠電也夠可是企業界真的是擔心到爆所以當你去講要去菲律賓就是開發綠電的時候還要用電纜拉回來大家都很認真當作它是一回事覺得台灣電跟綠電都不夠"},{"start":632.359,"end":635.693,"text":"所以我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的一個說明是 謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:16:45 - 10:27:26","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155519,"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我想請一下郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天經濟委員會特別針對我國電力能源配比現行執行狀況跟未來規劃的部分，我就肯定是因為現在電的問題真的全民都關心，而且今天開始漲電價。部長，你知道從2016年蔡英文總統就職之後到現在，我們的電費漲了多少，你知道嗎？包含這一波，不知道喔？我直接跟你講，因為時間有限。從蔡英文上來之後，他是說這10年內都不會漲電價啦！不會大漲電價，可是平均起來，整個平均電價已經漲35.43%，產業用電漲了52.36%，部長，你覺得這樣子漲幅算不算大？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我們還是考慮到在整個競爭的要件上面，讓國內的用電戶者，在可以承受的範圍裡面……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你覺得這漲幅算不算大，簡單回應就可以，因為今天要問的問題很多。"],["郭部長智輝：我們的漲幅跟日本、韓國比還是低的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你覺得還不算大，之後還可能會漲更多，潛在語言的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我沒有這個意思。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，對產業界來講，基本上已經漲了百分之五十二點多，你覺得漲幅跟日韓比還沒有他們那麼高，聽起來感覺未來可能還會再繼續漲，不過，我覺得這個部分你沒有特別講，只是說我們擔心。我今天要講三個主要的問題，其實都跟您從企業界轉任經濟部長有點關係，第一個，針對呂宋經濟走廊這個部分，在菲律賓發電的問題，這是第一個；第二個，在今天的專報當中，你直接提到了一個非核不是神主牌，你很具體地寫這個東西；第三個部分，在923的時候，整個離岸風電產業認為是「923之亂」，就是國產化鬆綁的問題。這三個部分，我覺得有一個很大的關鍵，可能部長來自於企業界，所以你有一些創意，包括剛剛你在講菲律賓這個事情，你覺得目前還是在論壇當中發想的階段，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是嘛！我也不為難你，因為剛剛很多委員都提到這部分，可是因為你剛剛承諾了，就是6個月之內，你要提出一個可行性評估報告，對不對？本席希望基本上你提這個點的時候……我先問一個點，你是因為臺灣的電不夠所以想要到海外去發電？還是因為臺灣的綠電不夠，所以要去海外發電？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，綠電的部分我們是夠的，我現在的意思是這是屬於民主同盟的國家，大家要互相的協助，朝2050年能夠零碳這樣的一個目標。所以這個命題其實在一般的論述上面，一般的論壇……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你的意思是說，臺灣綠電是夠的，所以到菲律賓去開發的綠電不一定要到臺灣用，你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對，這個就是有很多……包括菲律賓，我想很多委員都指教菲律賓其實電是不夠的，所以我們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分我在這裡就打住。如果去菲律賓開發綠電是要讓其他國家用，那我就特別要關心臺灣的電到底夠不夠？所以我本來在想，因為你提到用海底電纜、要用到船來運電的時候，我想離臺灣最近的中國大陸才一百五十公里左右，而且是到新竹，離科學園區很近，如果是因為綠電不夠，我覺得這是一個考慮的方向。如果部長是以企業界的思考來看這個問題，也許可能會更有彈性，而且也有可能可以突破現在兩岸政治上面的一個框架，是不是有這個可能？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個因為是屬於民主同盟之間的問題啦，所以臺灣單獨要討論這樣的一個命題，謝謝委員的指教，這個命題我想我不能夠在這個地方直接來回答你……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你可以私底下再到我們辦公室來溝通，就像你之前第一次來溝通的時候，你覺得臺灣的核能其實是可能的一個選項，你今天也特別提到了，非核不是神主牌。針對這個部分，因為我們明年度原本提出來的預算當中，有六十幾億是針對核能後續處理的問題，可是我知道在賴總統氣候變遷的委員會裡面，也在討論核三廠是不是能夠繼續延役使用，你在這邊可不可以針對臺灣的核能政策做一個更清楚的交代？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想核能的政策，我們在報告上面也寫得非常清楚，第一個，基於安全的考量；第二個，全民共識；第三個，核廢料可以處理，我想這三個要素能夠解決，我們都可以進入程序來討論這些問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：目前有在努力嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不管我們自己經濟部或者是能源署，我們都要瞭解全民的意思，我想這個命題在民間應該都有在討論才對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我這邊特別提一個點，部長講的一句話就會引起大家很大的關注，包括菲律賓這件事情，如果我們去菲律賓開發電廠不是為了要給臺灣使用，只是為了民主同盟有更大的一個目標去做的時候……而我自己原本在想的狀態是，如果臺灣去菲律賓開發綠電，我們是不是直接買綠電憑證就可以，而不一定要直接用電纜把電引到臺灣，這是不是另外一種可能的解決方案？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果用RE100來講，沒有那條纜是不承認的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就不行，對不對？所以我們一定需要有纜線才會讓臺灣使用，所以我要講一點，如果是要有纜線讓臺灣使用，跟你講我們去菲律賓開發綠電是因為民主同盟……其實不一定是臺灣，因為臺灣綠電夠多，而這兩件事情是衝突的。我這邊不特別為難，但你六個月之後，給本席一個很清楚的評估報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我接下來要提一個狀態，針對離岸風電「923之亂」，因為「923之亂」之後其實3-1、3-2很清楚，大家都有國產化的一個需求。我看部長之前在回應其他委員的時候提到，3-1確定不會再做任何調整，國產化會堅持，對不對？3-2的部分，可不可以做一下說明？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，3-2是就既有的條件通案管理，至於個案可以協助。"],["鄭委員正鈐：通案管理是什麼意思？"],["郭部長智輝：就是按照……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為3-2的部分，在今年7月份已經完成競比了，雖然還沒有正式簽約，約還沒有簽，可是整個競比都已經完成了，我們是要從頭做過嗎？還是之後會給這些得標的廠商，有什麼樣子的彈性，可不可以具體說明？"],["郭部長智輝：得標的廠商得標了，我們現在是約束它，要求它一定要在時間內完工，我們希望它能夠提早，就它提早的部分，怎麼提早，這個是我們需要的，所以可以協助它。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，所以你這樣提的狀態就是如期併網是最重要的一個前提，對不對？如果如期併網，他們能夠做到就沒問題，如果不能做到的時候，我們可能就會去改變原本他們競比當中的條件，是這個意思嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們是協助它，我們是協助。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分我要特別提一下，事實上針對國產化需求的時候，我們其實有一個很大的目標，希望能夠達到能源自主、產業韌性跟亞洲的一個基地，這三個目標應該都沒有變吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有變。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有變，它裡面很大一個部分就跟國產化相關，所以我們希望針對這個部長要能夠繼續堅持，企業對於政府信賴的原則不能夠受到挑戰，你當時923一提到國產化可能鬆綁的時候，大家都瘋了！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是因為歐盟到WTO去提告，所以我們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，他們剛開始做第一個動作，之後還有很多的時間我們要做，可是政府的credit也不能夠被打折！"],["郭部長智輝：政府已經承諾的事情，一定會基於信賴原則，我們會實施，但是在未來的案場，我們希望增加國內的競爭力，它必須有國際……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，3-2算不算未來的案場？還是算已經發生的案場？"],["郭部長智輝：3-3。"],["鄭委員正鈐：3-3之後才算未來的案場，對不對？OK，好，很清楚，所以3-2的部分，基本上一定會按照我們當時競比的一個要求去執行，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，謝謝，以上。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我在想今天漲電價，我們希望經濟部跟台電一起合作，其實要讓整個臺灣的電真的是夠的，雖然你一直表示我們的電夠、綠電也夠，可是企業界真的是擔心到爆。當你講要去菲律賓開發綠電的時候，還要用電纜拉回來，大家都很認真當作它是一回事，覺得臺灣電跟綠電都不夠，我覺得這部分需要部長再做更清楚的說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：在賴瑞隆委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}}