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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 76.307, \"end\": 76.467, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 76.467, \"end\": 76.687, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 76.687, \"end\": 76.707, \"score\": 0.382}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}]}, {\"start\": 77.247, \"end\": 77.427, \"text\": \"：沈伯洋\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"：\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 77.247, \"end\": 77.387, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"伯\", \"start\": 77.387, \"end\": 77.407, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 77.407, \"end\": 77.427, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 102.285, \"end\": 108.148, \"text\": \"謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 102.285, \"end\": 102.385, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 102.385, \"end\": 102.425, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 102.425, 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\"又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 322.316, \"end\": 322.536, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 322.536, \"end\": 322.736, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 322.736, \"end\": 323.056, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 323.056, \"end\": 323.176, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 323.176, \"end\": 323.276, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 323.276, \"end\": 323.416, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 323.416, \"end\": 323.656, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 323.656, \"end\": 323.937, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 323.937, \"end\": 324.117, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 324.117, \"end\": 324.297, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 324.297, \"end\": 324.797, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,068 --> 00:00:01,611\n謝謝主席。有請局長。謝謝。\n\n2\n00:00:09,459 --> 00:00:31,334\n謝謝主席沈委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門的這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多\n\n3\n00:00:31,934 --> 00:00:59,041\n那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬\n\n4\n00:01:00,398 --> 00:01:16,707\n對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷\n\n5\n00:01:17,247 --> 00:01:17,427\n：沈伯洋\n\n6\n00:01:42,285 --> 00:01:48,148\n謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續\n\n7\n00:02:09,019 --> 00:02:36,687\n所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏\n\n8\n00:02:37,387 --> 00:02:56,857\n因為中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明\n\n9\n00:02:57,617 --> 00:02:58,398\n：沈伯洋\n\n10\n00:03:16,897 --> 00:03:46,597\n所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明\n\n11\n00:03:46,917 --> 00:04:14,743\n所以整個過程當中對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機那但是就是說它很多的爭議消息它奇怪的幾個點是在於說它一放之後呢它很快就刪除了\n\n12\n00:04:15,463 --> 00:04:32,699\n外交刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人\n\n13\n00:04:33,760 --> 00:05:01,682\n因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條\n\n14\n00:05:03,383 --> 00:05:21,796\n這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水\n\n15\n00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:40,802\n又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色\n\n16\n00:05:42,583 --> 00:06:00,359\n所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表\n\n17\n00:06:00,859 --> 00:06:28,273\n他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確\n\n18\n00:06:29,213 --> 00:06:49,788\n所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其敗選之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種\n\n19\n00:06:51,129 --> 00:07:18,497\n又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表\n\n20\n00:07:18,917 --> 00:07:36,131\n所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整\n\n21\n00:07:36,491 --> 00:07:36,511\n好﹗\n\n22\n00:07:52,983 --> 00:08:11,290\n對這部分有跟我們做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法\n\n23\n00:08:11,910 --> 00:08:33,111\n在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共\n\n24\n00:08:33,772 --> 00:08:40,699\n確實以反生通法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的\n\n25\n00:08:59,156 --> 00:09:23,124\n那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像色違法那一種就色違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了\n\n26\n00:09:23,624 --> 00:09:40,069\n開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站\n\n27\n00:09:40,709 --> 00:10:03,959\n在這個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議訊息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼\n\n28\n00:10:06,140 --> 00:10:31,965\n對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級\n\n29\n00:10:32,865 --> 00:10:36,147\n謝謝許局長我是建議說依據之後可以也把它寫出來那這樣也不會變成操作的工具就是告訴大家說我們依據是什麼我們因為這個挑選了這些案例好謝謝沈伯洋委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1068\t1611\t謝謝主席。有請局長。謝謝。\n9459\t31334\t謝謝主席 沈委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門的這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多\n31934\t59041\t那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬\n60398\t76707\t對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷\n77247\t77427\t：沈伯洋\n102285\t108148\t謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續\n129019\t156687\t所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏\n157387\t176857\t因為中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明\n177617\t178398\t：沈伯洋\n196897\t226597\t所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明\n226917\t254743\t所以整個過程當中對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機那但是就是說它很多的爭議消息它奇怪的幾個點是在於說它一放之後呢它很快就刪除了\n255463\t272699\t外交刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人\n273760\t301682\t因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條\n303383\t321796\t這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水\n322316\t340802\t又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色\n342583\t360359\t所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表\n360859\t388273\t他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確\n389213\t409788\t所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其敗選之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種\n411129\t438497\t又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表\n438917\t456131\t所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整\n456491\t456511\t好﹗\n472983\t491290\t對 這部分有跟我們做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法\n491910\t513111\t在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共\n513772\t520699\t確實以反生通法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的\n539156\t563124\t那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像色違法那一種就色違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了\n563624\t580069\t開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站\n580709\t603959\t在這個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議訊息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼\n606140\t631965\t對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級\n632865\t636147\t謝謝許局長我是建議說依據之後可以也把它寫出來那這樣也不會變成操作的工具就是告訴大家說我們依據是什麼我們因為這個挑選了這些案例好 謝謝沈伯洋委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席。有請局長。謝謝。\n謝謝主席 沈委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門的這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多\n那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬\n對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷\n：沈伯洋\n謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續\n所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏\n因為中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明\n：沈伯洋\n所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明\n所以整個過程當中對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機那但是就是說它很多的爭議消息它奇怪的幾個點是在於說它一放之後呢它很快就刪除了\n外交刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人\n因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條\n這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水\n又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色\n所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表\n他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確\n所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其敗選之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種\n又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表\n所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整\n好﹗\n對 這部分有跟我們做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法\n在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共\n確實以反生通法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的\n那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像色違法那一種就色違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了\n開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站\n在這個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議訊息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼\n對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級\n謝謝許局長我是建議說依據之後可以也把它寫出來那這樣也不會變成操作的工具就是告訴大家說我們依據是什麼我們因為這個挑選了這些案例好 謝謝沈伯洋委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.068 --> 00:01.611\n謝謝主席。有請局長。謝謝。\n\n00:09.459 --> 00:31.334\n謝謝主席沈委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門的這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多\n\n00:31.934 --> 00:59.041\n那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬\n\n01:00.398 --> 01:16.707\n對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷\n\n01:17.247 --> 01:17.427\n：沈伯洋\n\n01:42.285 --> 01:48.148\n謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續\n\n02:09.019 --> 02:36.687\n所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏\n\n02:37.387 --> 02:56.857\n因為中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明\n\n02:57.617 --> 02:58.398\n：沈伯洋\n\n03:16.897 --> 03:46.597\n所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明\n\n03:46.917 --> 04:14.743\n所以整個過程當中對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機那但是就是說它很多的爭議消息它奇怪的幾個點是在於說它一放之後呢它很快就刪除了\n\n04:15.463 --> 04:32.699\n外交刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人\n\n04:33.760 --> 05:01.682\n因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條\n\n05:03.383 --> 05:21.796\n這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水\n\n05:22.316 --> 05:40.802\n又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色\n\n05:42.583 --> 06:00.359\n所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表\n\n06:00.859 --> 06:28.273\n他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確\n\n06:29.213 --> 06:49.788\n所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其敗選之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種\n\n06:51.129 --> 07:18.497\n又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表\n\n07:18.917 --> 07:36.131\n所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整\n\n07:36.491 --> 07:36.511\n好﹗\n\n07:52.983 --> 08:11.290\n對這部分有跟我們做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法\n\n08:11.910 --> 08:33.111\n在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共\n\n08:33.772 --> 08:40.699\n確實以反生通法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的\n\n08:59.156 --> 09:23.124\n那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像色違法那一種就色違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了\n\n09:23.624 --> 09:40.069\n開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站\n\n09:40.709 --> 10:03.959\n在這個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議訊息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼\n\n10:06.140 --> 10:31.965\n對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級\n\n10:32.865 --> 10:36.147\n謝謝許局長我是建議說依據之後可以也把它寫出來那這樣也不會變成操作的工具就是告訴大家說我們依據是什麼我們因為這個挑選了這些案例好謝謝沈伯洋委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.068,"end":1.611,"text":"謝謝主席。有請局長。謝謝。"},{"start":9.459,"end":31.334,"text":"謝謝主席 沈委員好今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的這個在3、4月的時候我們在討論中國侵台手段的時候那時候也跟國安局討論過就是說關於這些軍事的騷擾目前它的管轄權的擴張在金門的這一次的事件統戰這是藝人相關的還有這個輿論的操作就是變得越來越多"},{"start":31.934,"end":59.041,"text":"那我就按照這個順序稍微問一下第一個當然就是這一次這個武力的部分那因為這一次解放軍這個圍台他說是這個包圍越逼越近那當然因為他有A當然自然有B那我記得國安局在之前的這個報告的時候就提過說他有這個接下來的這個可能性所以接下來的確是有一個預判那是不是可以請局長說明一下這次預判的過程當中是有哪一些行為就是我們提早做了哪些應酬"},{"start":60.398,"end":76.707,"text":"對就中共的軍演大概我們在事前預判從政治的動機角度來看我們認為他為了要持續對台進行施壓一定會在國慶之後有一些動作不管國慶演說講什麼所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":77.247,"end":77.427,"text":"：沈伯洋"},{"start":102.285,"end":108.148,"text":"謝謝因為我看這次國防跟國安的回應是比較早從一大早就已經開始了但是關於這一次就是海巡的部分因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息然後他這一個海警船也看起來是演習之後還持續"},{"start":129.019,"end":156.687,"text":"所以就是說他今天這一個海警艦隊這件事情他針對我們的海巡然後又放相關的假消息這個部分有沒有在預料之內有因為這一次的演習中國的海警參與的程度比較高總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船加上另外兩艘公務船一艘海調船公務船兩艘裡面包括一艘海調船跟一艘海巡船那在演習過程當中他們都在台灣周邊不同的水域以及外島來進行相關的一個巡邏"},{"start":157.387,"end":176.857,"text":"因為中國海警有相關的角色所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡那中國海警也針對他們的相關的一個活動來做這個圖卡來對台灣進行相關的認知作戰那在正義訊息的查處的部分事實上我剛也跟林楚英委員有做說明"},{"start":177.617,"end":178.398,"text":"：沈伯洋"},{"start":196.897,"end":226.597,"text":"所以就他們網路上散布台灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況為了知道海巡署在第一時間就做相關的訊息的澄清那對於所謂剛剛林楚英委員在關心到因為網路上在散布爭議訊息說天然氣的傳播沒有辦法靠港因為受到演習的影響那這部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源那調查局也在這部分有做對外的一個說明"},{"start":226.917,"end":254.743,"text":"所以整個過程當中對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制因為這個就是剛剛提到輿論的操作那當然除了就是剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息那這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下就是它會有一些當然就是很多是IP是來自於攝影機所以就是網路的攝影機那但是就是說它很多的爭議消息它奇怪的幾個點是在於說它一放之後呢它很快就刪除了"},{"start":255.463,"end":272.699,"text":"外交刪除的原因當然可能有很多個啦一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了或者說他今天使用的帳號不對他可能會有千千百百種原因但就不知道說他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係這可能請國安局注意一下但另外一個就是說我們的藝人"},{"start":273.76,"end":301.682,"text":"因為統戰相關的這個藝人今年是特別的多那當然也不是都今年開始從我們的研究我們大概都可以知道對藝人的這個滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語從這個什麼從反對台獨從那個不支持台獨到反對台獨到不支持統一到完全支持統一等等之類的所以我們可以看到接下來的已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說這個只有一個中國台獨是死路一條"},{"start":303.383,"end":321.796,"text":"這件事情對我來講就是說如果今天是藝人表態藝人畢竟是在自由市場他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情那他可能也是他的自由但假設今天發文的人不是藝人今天假設今天是一個比如說台灣的教授他已經有這個他是平常有拿教育部的薪水"},{"start":322.316,"end":340.802,"text":"又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情那或許風險就會越來越高那我們現在擔心的就是對中國來講這是一種灰色地帶嘛他對於藝人他會逐步的進逼叫藝人表態的越來越積極那接下來呢角色也可能會更換現在是藝人接下來可能就會是其他的人員他會不斷去換這個角色"},{"start":342.583,"end":360.359,"text":"所以針對這一點我們有看到就是說這一次這個也是國安團會就有提到就是還有幾個階段嘛官方先定調然後呢官媒再協力擴散最後再由台灣的藝人去做這個陸續的轉發那我現在想的就是第四第五階段的事情就是說如果等到比較重要的人物比如說政黨的代表"},{"start":360.859,"end":388.273,"text":"他也開始講這些話的時候那我們該怎麼辦因此呢就是我們現在在研擬一個方案就是說我們刑法這個外患罪我想說這一個這個局長一定非常熟悉啦我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已就是說呢你意圖使這個我們的領土為這個他國的領土通謀然後是死刑或無期徒刑那現在對我們的司法的體系來講那一條很難用就第一個他刑責重死刑無期徒刑然後他的要件又很不明確"},{"start":389.213,"end":409.788,"text":"所以我們針對這一點呢目前列了這四個第一個就是跟這個案件最有關係的就是公開聲明或向外國或其敗選之人承認該國或他國對中華民國實行有統治權者這是第一種那再來呢後面我們還列了幾種有什麼違背就是你承諾像我們之前有看到有將領直接去簽了這一個說投降協議這是屬於第二種"},{"start":411.129,"end":438.497,"text":"又或者說第三個在台灣直接舉報這一個相關的這些事項讓中國可以合法的能夠在台灣行使公權力這一定也是問題嘛又或者說呢就直接去簽署和平協議等等之類的那我們現在列出了這一些但我們現在也會覺得說我們不可能一開始就說一人做這一個我們就認為是問題基本上應該還是要有特定身份的人比如說總統來做這一種或者我們的退將我們的軍人政黨代表"},{"start":438.917,"end":456.131,"text":"所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面這當然還是打一個問號但我會認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候應該不管是國防內政還有司法法制應該一定會請國安局來說明所以呢希望看國安團隊能不能針對這一個就是來做一個做一個重整"},{"start":456.491,"end":456.511,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":472.983,"end":491.29,"text":"對 這部分有跟我們做個補充的說明就中共對台的一個統戰或是認知作戰的樣態確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對台政策的一些說法那藝人政治人物退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等的都是他們操作的過去的一些看到的手法"},{"start":491.91,"end":513.111,"text":"在法律要件的部分我想對於大院報告委員可以來提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話那我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論那否則目前來講在法律工具上確實有一些局限性那比如說像這一類的徵訊的散布我們也曾經考慮過是不是有涉及到反滲透法危害公共"},{"start":513.772,"end":520.699,"text":"確實以反生通法來講我們最近也提出了一個修法上禮拜有送出去就是針對爭議訊息但因為爭議訊息有些是什麼有些是本來法律就有處罰的像什麼內線交易相關的或者說跟農業相關的傳染病相關的"},{"start":539.156,"end":563.124,"text":"那這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮比較有疑慮的一定就會是類似像色違法那一種就色違法那個要搭配反滲透法我們真的要這樣定的時候一定會有人反對說啊這個又是在這個侵犯言論自由但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬是因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了"},{"start":563.624,"end":580.069,"text":"開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在根本就沒有認真準備要把酒言歡什麼等等之類的這不只對士氣會有傷害對人民對這一個不管是國軍跟海巡的信任一定會有傷害是那接下來我還想問一下一個比較小的問題就是我發現國安局的網站"},{"start":580.709,"end":603.959,"text":"在這個從開始會有這個比如說有黃色的那個部分在左上角有點小就是那個10月份媒體試讀然後就會開始放一些就是說這個開始有一些在比如說抖音啊TikTok上面有一些爭議的消息的散播那我這邊只是很單純我覺得這個是好事這絕對沒問題只是我想問一下因為畢竟爭議訊息我們看到夜報裡面其實很多這個挑選的依據會是什麼"},{"start":606.14,"end":631.965,"text":"對在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體試讀的正義訊息的一些資訊那就正義訊息來講我們會有幾個主要原則就錯假害他是錯的惡意的去散佈而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害的以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷那特別我們還會列出他的等級到底是中高低那這個等級"},{"start":632.865,"end":636.147,"text":"謝謝許局長我是建議說依據之後可以也把它寫出來那這樣也不會變成操作的工具就是告訴大家說我們依據是什麼我們因為這個挑選了這些案例好 謝謝沈伯洋委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:16:43 - 10:27:38","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":155520,"gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請國安局局長，謝謝。"],["主席：蔡局長，請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好。今天最主要還是問中國威脅相關的，在三、四月的時候我們在討論中國侵臺手段，那時候也跟國安局討論過，就是關於這些軍事的騷擾，目前其管轄權的擴張，在金門這一次的事件，統戰，還有這次藝人相關的，以及輿論的操作變得越來越多了，我就按照這個順序稍微問一下。第一個當然就是這一次武力的部分，因為這一次解放軍圍臺，它說是包圍越逼越近，當然因為它有A，自然有B，我記得國安局在之前報告的時候就有提過，他有接下來的這個可能性，所以接下來的確是有一個預判，是不是可以請局長說明一下，這次預判的過程當中是有哪些行為？我們提早做了哪些應處？"],["蔡局長明彥：就中共的軍演，我們在事前預判，從政治的動機角度來看，我們認為它為了要持續對臺進行施壓，一定會在國慶之後有一些動作，不管國慶演說講什麼，所以在國慶之前大概媒體就有報導，國安單位有做這樣的一個判斷，這是從政治的角度來判斷。第二部分是中共要動員一場演習，它必須要有一些機艦的動員還有部署，所以在演習之前的幾天，大概已經可以看到這些機艦開始進行一些活動，國防部當然也針對遼寧艦到西太的這個動作有做一些新聞的釋出，所以在過程當中可以知道，中共已經在為所謂的聯合利劍2024B做一些演習的部署，當然我們國安團隊在過程當中都隨時保持情報的分享，也跟國際友盟做必要的戰略溝通，掌握相關的狀況。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。我看這次國防跟國安的回應比較早，從一大早就已經開始了，但是關於這一次海巡的部分，因為他們有放了很多跟海巡相關的假消息，然後他們的海警船也看起來是演習之後還是持續，所以就是說今天他們海警艦隊這件事情，針對我們的海巡，又放相關的假消息，這一個部分有沒有在預料之內？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為這次的演習，中國的海警參與程度比較高，總共動用了大概有16艘的海警船，加上另外2艘公務船、1艘海調船，2艘公務船裡面包括1艘海調船跟1艘海巡船，在演習過程當中，他們都在臺灣周邊不同水域以及外島來進行相關的巡邏，因為中國海警有相關的角色，所以才會有委員在螢幕上所顯示的這張圖卡，中國海警也針對他們的相關活動來做這個圖卡，對臺灣進行相關的認知作戰。","在爭議訊息的查處部分，事實上，我剛剛也跟林楚茵委員有做說明，我們除了重視中共的軍事動態以外，另外也在注意到的是爭議訊息的散布，以及資安攻擊可能的狀況，所以就委員現在關心的爭議訊息散布的部分，我們都會在網路上即時「即蒐即報」，也讓各單位可以進行必要的說明跟應處，所以就他們在網路上散布臺灣的海巡有很多什麼裝備不良的狀況，我也知道海巡署在第一時間就有做相關訊息的澄清，對於剛剛林楚茵委員所關心到的，因為網路上在散布的爭議訊息說，天然氣的船舶沒有辦法靠港，因為受到演習的影響，這個部分我們去查出了海外散布的中國網路公司的來源，調查局也在這部分有做對外的說明，所以整個過程當中，對於爭議訊息的查找來源以及對外說明，大概有建立一個還算有效率的機制。"],["沈委員伯洋：我剛剛有提到輿論的操作，當然除了剛剛講的PTT上面有一些假消息，這邊也是請國安團隊再注意一下，就是他當然很多IP是來自於攝影機，就是網路的攝影機，但是就是說他很多的爭議消息，奇怪的幾個點是在於說，他一放之後他很快就刪除了，很快就刪除的原因當然可能有很多個，一開始可能是他發現這個風向可能不好帶，又或者說他可能今天發現這個IP已經透露了，或者說他今天使用的帳號不對，他可能會有千千百百種原因，但就不知道他跟接下來的操作會有什麼樣的關係，這可能請國安局注意一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外一個就是我們的藝人，因為統戰相關的藝人今年是特別的多，當然也不是說今年開始，從我們的研究我們可以知道，對藝人的滲透大概都是以6年為一個季度，然後每一年都會請藝人講更激進的話語，從不支持臺獨到反對臺獨，到不支持統一，到完全支持統一等等之類的，所以我們可以看到接下來已經開始有藝人都開始轉發說，只有一個中國，臺獨是死路一條。這件事情對我來講，如果今天是藝人表態，藝人畢竟是在自由市場，他要去中國發展可能也是他家的事情，可能也是他的自由，但假設今天發文的人不是藝人，假設今天是一個臺灣的教授，他是平常有拿教育部的薪水，又或者說他今天是政府的官員來做這件事情，或許風險就會越來越高。我們現在擔心的就是，對中國來講，這就是一種灰色地帶，對於藝人，他會逐步的進逼，叫藝人表態得越來越激進，接下來角色也可能會更換，現在是藝人，接下來可能就會是其他的人員，他會不斷去換這個角色，所以針對這一點我們有看到，這一次國安團隊也有提到他有幾個階段，就是官方先定調，然後官媒再協力擴散，最後再由臺灣的藝人去做陸續的轉發。我現在想的就是第四、第五階段的事情，就是說如果等到比較重要的人物，譬如說政黨的代表他也開始講這些話的時候，那我們該怎麼辦？因此我們現在在研擬一個方案，就是我們刑法的外患罪，我想局長一定非常熟悉啦，我們的外患罪一直以來就那一條而已，就是你意圖使我們的領土為他國的領土，通謀，然後是死刑或無期徒刑，現在對我們司法的體系來講，那一條很難用，第一個它刑責重──死刑、無期徒刑，然後它的要件又很不明確，所以我們針對這一點目前列了這四個，第一個，跟這個案件最有關係的就是，公開聲明或向外國或其派遣之人承認該國或他國對中華民國有統治權者，這是第一種。再來，後面我們還列了幾種，有違背其職務之行為，就是你承諾不執行職務或承諾為違背職務之行為，像我們之前看到有將領直接去簽了說要投降的協議，這是屬於第二種。又或者第三個，在臺灣直接舉報相關的這些事項，讓中國可以合法地在臺灣行使公權力，這一定也是問題。又或者就直接去簽署和平協議等等，我們現在列出了這一些。","但我們現在也會覺得我們不可能一開始就說藝人做這個，我們就認為是問題，基本上應該還是要有特定身分的人，譬如總統來做這種，或者我們的退將、我們的軍人、政黨代表，所以一般人民能不能夠在裡面，這當然還是打一個問號，但我認為因為我們現在要推這一個法案出來的時候，不管是外交及國防委員會、內政委員會，還有司法及法制委員會，一定會請國安局來說明，所以希望國安團隊看能不能針對這個部分來做一個綜整，讓我們開始在看這些法條的時候，可以詢問一下？因為你們畢竟在第一線，所以到底有哪些類型沒有被放進來，或者有哪一些可能太廣了，我們可能需要在委員會討論，所以這方面請局長指示一下，看能不能請團隊來做一些準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，這部分也跟委員做個補充的說明，中共對臺的統戰或是認知作戰的樣態，確實會找知名的人物來呼應他們對臺政策的一些說法，藝人、政治人物、退將或現役軍人去簽署效忠同意書等等，都是過去有看到的一些他們操作的手法。在法律要件的部分，我想對於大院，包括委員，可以提出對於外患罪一些條文的修正的話，我們也很願意在這個過程當中參與相關的討論，否則目前來講，在法律工具上確實有一些侷限性，比如像這一類爭訊的散布，我們也曾經考慮過，是不是有涉及反滲透法、危害公共安全或公共利益的部分，但條文在運用上確實有它的限制，所以從國安的角度來講，我們非常樂見大院可以有這些修法的討論。"],["沈委員伯洋：確實，像以反滲透法來講，我們最近也提出了一個修法，上禮拜有送出去，就是針對爭議訊息，但爭議訊息有些是什麼？有些是本來法律就有處罰的，像什麼內線交易相關的，或者跟農業相關的、傳染病相關的，這些如果要跟反滲透法結合做加重，這個部分應該比較沒有疑慮，比較有疑慮的，一定就會是類似社維法那種。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：社維法那個要搭配反滲透法，我們真的要這樣訂的時候，一定會有人反對說這個是在侵犯言論自由，但我覺得這個部分一定要研擬，因為顯然灰色地帶現在已經做到這個程度了，如果我們今天沒有辦法擋下這一個的話，下次他可能文章不會那麼快刪除了，開始就在散播說什麼海巡還在……根本就沒有認真，準備要把酒言歡等等，這不只對士氣會有傷害，對人民，對不管是國軍跟海巡的信任，都一定會有傷害。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，對。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來，我還想問一個比較小的問題，就是我發現國安局的網站，開始會有譬如黃色的那個部分，在左上角，有點小，就是10月份媒體識讀，然後就會開始放一些譬如在抖音（TikTok）上面有一些爭議消息的散播，我這邊只是很單純地說，我覺得這個是好事，這絕對沒問題，只是我想問一下，因為畢竟爭議訊息的部分，我們看到業報裡面其實很多，這個挑選的依據會是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在這部分我們大概每個月都會更新我們官方網站當中有關媒體識讀爭議訊息的一些資訊，就爭議訊息來講，我們會有幾個主要原則，就是錯、假、害，它是錯的，惡意地去散播，而且會對於我們的社會安全或穩定造成一些危害，以這樣的指標來進行一些判斷，特別我們還會列出它的等級，到底是中、高或低，這個等級再配合到它散播平臺的廣泛性，如果是比較重要的，還會再結合到可能國外的一些資安公司也有提出一些警示，將這些結合起來，做相關的訊息揭露。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝局長，我是建議這個依據之後也可以把它寫出來，這樣也不會變成操作的工具，就是告訴大家我們的依據是什麼，我們因為這個依據而挑選了這些案例。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒我們。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}}