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00:00:46,409\n委員好保定院教授你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是現在要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的這個匾額以後提醒你不要再天馬行空講太快\n\n3\n00:00:48,001 --> 00:01:12,305\n要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠你會被拘捕你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?\n\n4\n00:01:16,775 --> 00:01:17,215\n臺電臺電到今天的虧損4420億\n\n5\n00:01:42,634 --> 00:01:45,715\n報告委員這個不是叫台電去做的只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題\n\n6\n00:02:04,511 --> 00:02:08,817\n所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對\n\n7\n00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:42,558\n人民現在擔心的是成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?\n\n8\n00:02:43,419 --> 00:02:57,384\n第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚因為這些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民職域都是這個嘛第二還有一個問題萬鵬姐\n\n9\n00:03:00,685 --> 00:03:18,970\n所以沒有正相關嘛這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題嘛也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情\n\n10\n00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:24,015\n那我就是擷取所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情\n\n11\n00:03:30,011 --> 00:03:30,331\n根據媒體的報告2030\n\n12\n00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:17,090\n2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站不住了我是還要看的啦但是不一定在這個位置啦你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲啦現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員齁\n\n13\n00:04:24,176 --> 00:04:38,121\n我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題你現在一聽你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行嘛你又是一個團隊\n\n14\n00:04:51,725 --> 00:05:20,156\n你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是是謝謝委員那回來你2030什麼重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價\n\n15\n00:05:21,141 --> 00:05:46,533\n我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛\n\n16\n00:05:51,035 --> 00:05:53,597\n我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證\n\n17\n00:06:13,086 --> 00:06:38,725\n我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲波普給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民大倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我沒有詳細看要不要給你波普很討厭第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不保的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊\n\n18\n00:06:42,912 --> 00:07:03,449\n你們比較好的運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了省了380億你4月份漲電價都收入了625億10月份就漲這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了今年多150億那如果加撥補所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個\n\n19\n00:07:06,671 --> 00:07:32,063\n人民納稅前你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你買你河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊\n\n20\n00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:53,576\n那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你核一廠跟核二廠,核一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!\n\n21\n00:07:58,162 --> 00:08:19,138\n2號機械204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞你要2022年進行你才是虧損被扒業的衣裳所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證啊從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛剛說的你真的要去國外設什麼\n\n22\n00:08:20,718 --> 00:08:38,363\n這什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在買電現在都在高峰上面是不是你現在再生能源的價格現在買現在電的這個成本啊我問你一下齁現在平均我剛剛上你台電的官網看你現在平均的這個發電跟過電的成本是多少3.06你知道嗎風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎風力發電你台電的官網看到嗎\n\n23\n00:08:51,314 --> 00:08:54,338\n五點五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電話這個\n\n24\n00:09:08,195 --> 00:09:29,266\n總經理多少?我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右4.88接近5塊,你的成本是3.06,你看看,我剛剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理,核電廠一年的,如果加核一、核二、核三全部都停了,到明年就全部都停了\n\n25\n00:09:30,529 --> 00:09:30,849\n張啓楷財政活動\n\n26\n00:09:41,946 --> 00:10:02,566\n你保不住啊,你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做一個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來,第二個\n\n27\n00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:03,980\n報告：張啓楷\n\n28\n00:10:27,710 --> 00:10:56,502\n這個減下來6塊錢5塊減去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎\n\n29\n00:10:57,307 --> 00:11:18,962\n我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的我問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪這個座談會啊\n\n30\n00:11:20,660 --> 00:11:28,977\n你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?\n\n31\n00:11:31,207 --> 00:11:55,909\n這上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊前幾天部長站起來啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治力能犯罪授壇啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我們不懂不懂不懂你什麼林文信什麼人\n\n32\n00:11:57,651 --> 00:12:26,503\n報告委員,我不熟你不是林文信,林文信同時你去開火林文信就是臺南八十八鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置,他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有,他已經掉開了掉開,那為什麼我上面看到資料,他負責召集跟通知\n\n33\n00:12:27,912 --> 00:12:54,919\n各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置蘇頂有驚訝嗎你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人已經負責召集\n\n34\n00:12:57,503 --> 00:13:06,365\n這事情怎麼辦?我們現在已經把它調開了所以他不可能介入這個議題他現在就介入嘛那是過去啦我們要面對解決問題是在未來部長這個會非常重要你去法務部長連行政院長都去這會這麼重要?\n\n35\n00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:51,175\n來啦我要講先講事情來來來等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要這真的太離譜這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好這個要調離開\n\n36\n00:13:53,342 --> 00:14:17,012\n好先這樣子那等一下我剛講你在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書妹好不好那剛剛講的更重要的喔人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎\n\n37\n00:14:18,646 --> 00:14:18,726\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n100\t640\t請張啓楷委員質詢請郭部長\n32978\t46409\t委員好 保定院教授你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是 現在要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的這個匾額以後提醒你 不要再天馬行空講太快\n48001\t72305\t要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠你會被拘捕你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?\n76775\t77215\t臺電臺電到今天的虧損4420億\n102634\t105715\t報告委員 這個不是叫台電去做的只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題\n124511\t128817\t所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對\n145980\t162558\t人民現在擔心的是成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?\n163419\t177384\t第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚因為這些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民職域都是這個嘛第二還有一個問題萬鵬姐\n180685\t198970\t所以沒有正相關嘛 這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題嘛也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題 那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情\n199770\t204015\t那我就是擷取所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情\n210011\t210331\t根據媒體的報告2030\n239716\t257090\t2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站不住了我是還要看的啦但是不一定在這個位置啦你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲啦現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員齁\n264176\t278121\t我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題你現在一聽你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行嘛你又是一個團隊\n291725\t320156\t你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是是謝謝委員那回來你2030什麼重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價\n321141\t346533\t我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛\n351035\t353597\t我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證\n373086\t398725\t我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲波普給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民大倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我沒有詳細看要不要給你波普很討厭第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不保的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊\n402912\t423449\t你們比較好的 運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了 省了380億你4月份漲電價 都收入了625億10月份就漲 這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了 今年多150億那如果加撥補 所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個\n426671\t452063\t人民納稅前你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你買你河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊\n454500\t473576\t那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你核一廠跟核二廠,核一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!\n478162\t499138\t2號機械204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞你要2022年進行你才是虧損被扒業的衣裳所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證啊從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛剛說的你真的要去國外設什麼\n500718\t518363\t這什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在買電現在都在高峰上面是不是你現在再生能源的價格現在買現在電的這個成本啊我問你一下齁現在平均我剛剛上你台電的官網看你現在平均的這個發電跟過電的成本是多少3.06你知道嗎風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎風力發電你台電的官網看到嗎\n531314\t534338\t五點五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電話這個\n548195\t569266\t總經理多少?我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右4.88接近5塊,你的成本是3.06,你看看,我剛剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理,核電廠一年的,如果加核一、核二、核三全部都停了,到明年就全部都停了\n570529\t570849\t張啓楷財政活動\n581946\t602566\t你保不住啊,你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做一個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來,第二個\n603800\t603980\t報告：張啓楷\n627710\t656502\t這個減下來6塊錢5塊減去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎\n657307\t678962\t我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的我問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪這個座談會啊\n680660\t688977\t你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?\n691207\t715909\t這上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊 前幾天部長站起來啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治力能犯罪授壇啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我們不懂不懂不懂你什麼林文信什麼人\n717651\t746503\t報告委員,我不熟你不是林文信,林文信同時你去開火林文信就是臺南八十八鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置,他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有,他已經掉開了掉開,那為什麼我上面看到資料,他負責召集跟通知\n747912\t774919\t各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置蘇頂有驚訝嗎你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人已經負責召集\n777503\t786365\t這事情怎麼辦?我們現在已經把它調開了所以他不可能介入這個議題他現在就介入嘛那是過去啦我們要面對解決問題是在未來部長這個會非常重要你去法務部長連行政院長都去這會這麼重要?\n805370\t831175\t來啦 我要講 先講事情 來來來 等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要 這真的太離譜 這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個 他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開 我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職 他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好 這個要調離開\n833342\t857012\t好先這樣子那等一下我剛講你在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書妹好不好那剛剛講的更重要的喔人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎\n858646\t858726\t主席\n","txt":"請張啓楷委員質詢請郭部長\n委員好 保定院教授你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是 現在要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的這個匾額以後提醒你 不要再天馬行空講太快\n要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠你會被拘捕你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?\n臺電臺電到今天的虧損4420億\n報告委員 這個不是叫台電去做的只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題\n所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對\n人民現在擔心的是成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?\n第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚因為這些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民職域都是這個嘛第二還有一個問題萬鵬姐\n所以沒有正相關嘛 這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題嘛也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題 那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情\n那我就是擷取所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情\n根據媒體的報告2030\n2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站不住了我是還要看的啦但是不一定在這個位置啦你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲啦現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員齁\n我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題你現在一聽你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行嘛你又是一個團隊\n你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是是謝謝委員那回來你2030什麼重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價\n我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛\n我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證\n我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲波普給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民大倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我沒有詳細看要不要給你波普很討厭第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不保的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊\n你們比較好的 運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了 省了380億你4月份漲電價 都收入了625億10月份就漲 這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了 今年多150億那如果加撥補 所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個\n人民納稅前你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你買你河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊\n那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你核一廠跟核二廠,核一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!\n2號機械204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞你要2022年進行你才是虧損被扒業的衣裳所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證啊從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛剛說的你真的要去國外設什麼\n這什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在買電現在都在高峰上面是不是你現在再生能源的價格現在買現在電的這個成本啊我問你一下齁現在平均我剛剛上你台電的官網看你現在平均的這個發電跟過電的成本是多少3.06你知道嗎風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎風力發電你台電的官網看到嗎\n五點五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電話這個\n總經理多少?我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右4.88接近5塊,你的成本是3.06,你看看,我剛剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理,核電廠一年的,如果加核一、核二、核三全部都停了,到明年就全部都停了\n張啓楷財政活動\n你保不住啊,你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做一個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來,第二個\n報告：張啓楷\n這個減下來6塊錢5塊減去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎\n我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的我問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪這個座談會啊\n你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?\n這上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊 前幾天部長站起來啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治力能犯罪授壇啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我們不懂不懂不懂你什麼林文信什麼人\n報告委員,我不熟你不是林文信,林文信同時你去開火林文信就是臺南八十八鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置,他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有,他已經掉開了掉開,那為什麼我上面看到資料,他負責召集跟通知\n各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置蘇頂有驚訝嗎你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人已經負責召集\n這事情怎麼辦?我們現在已經把它調開了所以他不可能介入這個議題他現在就介入嘛那是過去啦我們要面對解決問題是在未來部長這個會非常重要你去法務部長連行政院長都去這會這麼重要?\n來啦 我要講 先講事情 來來來 等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要 這真的太離譜 這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個 他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開 我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職 他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好 這個要調離開\n好先這樣子那等一下我剛講你在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書妹好不好那剛剛講的更重要的喔人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.100 --> 00:00.640\n請張啓楷委員質詢請郭部長\n\n00:32.978 --> 00:46.409\n委員好保定院教授你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是現在要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的這個匾額以後提醒你不要再天馬行空講太快\n\n00:48.001 --> 01:12.305\n要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠你會被拘捕你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?\n\n01:16.775 --> 01:17.215\n臺電臺電到今天的虧損4420億\n\n01:42.634 --> 01:45.715\n報告委員這個不是叫台電去做的只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題\n\n02:04.511 --> 02:08.817\n所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對\n\n02:25.980 --> 02:42.558\n人民現在擔心的是成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?\n\n02:43.419 --> 02:57.384\n第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚因為這些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民職域都是這個嘛第二還有一個問題萬鵬姐\n\n03:00.685 --> 03:18.970\n所以沒有正相關嘛這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題嘛也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情\n\n03:19.770 --> 03:24.015\n那我就是擷取所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情\n\n03:30.011 --> 03:30.331\n根據媒體的報告2030\n\n03:59.716 --> 04:17.090\n2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站不住了我是還要看的啦但是不一定在這個位置啦你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲啦現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員齁\n\n04:24.176 --> 04:38.121\n我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題你現在一聽你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行嘛你又是一個團隊\n\n04:51.725 --> 05:20.156\n你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是是謝謝委員那回來你2030什麼重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價\n\n05:21.141 --> 05:46.533\n我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛\n\n05:51.035 --> 05:53.597\n我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證\n\n06:13.086 --> 06:38.725\n我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲波普給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民大倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我沒有詳細看要不要給你波普很討厭第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不保的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊\n\n06:42.912 --> 07:03.449\n你們比較好的運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了省了380億你4月份漲電價都收入了625億10月份就漲這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了今年多150億那如果加撥補所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個\n\n07:06.671 --> 07:32.063\n人民納稅前你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你買你河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊\n\n07:34.500 --> 07:53.576\n那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你核一廠跟核二廠,核一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!\n\n07:58.162 --> 08:19.138\n2號機械204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞你要2022年進行你才是虧損被扒業的衣裳所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證啊從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛剛說的你真的要去國外設什麼\n\n08:20.718 --> 08:38.363\n這什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在買電現在都在高峰上面是不是你現在再生能源的價格現在買現在電的這個成本啊我問你一下齁現在平均我剛剛上你台電的官網看你現在平均的這個發電跟過電的成本是多少3.06你知道嗎風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎風力發電你台電的官網看到嗎\n\n08:51.314 --> 08:54.338\n五點五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電話這個\n\n09:08.195 --> 09:29.266\n總經理多少?我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右4.88接近5塊,你的成本是3.06,你看看,我剛剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理,核電廠一年的,如果加核一、核二、核三全部都停了,到明年就全部都停了\n\n09:30.529 --> 09:30.849\n張啓楷財政活動\n\n09:41.946 --> 10:02.566\n你保不住啊,你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做一個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來,第二個\n\n10:03.800 --> 10:03.980\n報告：張啓楷\n\n10:27.710 --> 10:56.502\n這個減下來6塊錢5塊減去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎\n\n10:57.307 --> 11:18.962\n我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的我問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪這個座談會啊\n\n11:20.660 --> 11:28.977\n你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?\n\n11:31.207 --> 11:55.909\n這上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊前幾天部長站起來啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治力能犯罪授壇啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我們不懂不懂不懂你什麼林文信什麼人\n\n11:57.651 --> 12:26.503\n報告委員,我不熟你不是林文信,林文信同時你去開火林文信就是臺南八十八鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置,他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有,他已經掉開了掉開,那為什麼我上面看到資料,他負責召集跟通知\n\n12:27.912 --> 12:54.919\n各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置蘇頂有驚訝嗎你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人已經負責召集\n\n12:57.503 --> 13:06.365\n這事情怎麼辦?我們現在已經把它調開了所以他不可能介入這個議題他現在就介入嘛那是過去啦我們要面對解決問題是在未來部長這個會非常重要你去法務部長連行政院長都去這會這麼重要?\n\n13:25.370 --> 13:51.175\n來啦我要講先講事情來來來等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要這真的太離譜這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好這個要調離開\n\n13:53.342 --> 14:17.012\n好先這樣子那等一下我剛講你在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書妹好不好那剛剛講的更重要的喔人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎\n\n14:18.646 --> 14:18.726\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.1,"end":0.64,"text":"請張啓楷委員質詢請郭部長"},{"start":32.978,"end":46.409,"text":"委員好 保定院教授你剛才說以後要緊嚴慎行是不是 現在要先送你一個緊嚴慎行的這個匾額以後提醒你 不要再天馬行空講太快"},{"start":48.001,"end":72.305,"text":"要嗎?要算個便宜?幾年盛行?我可以不講話,但是天馬行空是我的這個習慣不過以後要幾年盛行是的其實現在不是大家罵你說你到菲律賓去設這個電廠你會被拘捕你知道問題出在哪邊嗎?為什麼被罵?或者需要幾年盛行?它至少有幾個問題嘛,對不對?你站在人民的角度人民看到你要去設這個電廠本來應該有好處啊,可是人民為什麼會生氣?"},{"start":76.775,"end":77.215,"text":"臺電臺電到今天的虧損4420億"},{"start":102.634,"end":105.715,"text":"報告委員 這個不是叫台電去做的只是說我如何透過民子同盟大家關心的命題"},{"start":124.511,"end":128.817,"text":"所以那個部長你今天解釋的跟你昨天媒體整個呈現的落差很大對不對"},{"start":145.98,"end":162.558,"text":"人民現在擔心的是成本到底有沒有升高嗎?他今天收尾焦點說的就是說,第一個要建立一個海底的電纜要多少成本對不對?如果用船去運要多少成本嘛?這是人民的立場,現在想到因為你這個錢花下去,第一個台電的虧損就繼續增高,這是一個點對不對?"},{"start":163.419,"end":177.384,"text":"第二點更重要,跟台電沒有正相關那你詳細的報告給我們那你要對話可能要說明清楚因為這些所有的媒體呈現的產官學跟人民職域都是這個嘛第二還有一個問題萬鵬姐"},{"start":180.685,"end":198.97,"text":"所以沒有正相關嘛 這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來的命題嘛也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的一個命題 那麼民主同盟他們可以做相互相支援大家可以做什麼樣的事情"},{"start":199.77,"end":204.015,"text":"那我就是擷取所以這個對台灣到底有什麼好處你說現在是綠電不夠所以綠電要回來是我們台灣電不夠所以你就要做這件事情"},{"start":210.011,"end":210.331,"text":"根據媒體的報告2030"},{"start":239.716,"end":257.09,"text":"2030年你覺得有在嗎?我們現在站不住了我是還要看的啦但是不一定在這個位置啦你一定在啦我是說你站不在經濟部長這個位置啦不可能啦你的年紀跟健康當然人會在啦你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置那個時間點不會再遲啦現在是電不夠還是綠電不夠的問題嘛你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情報告委員齁"},{"start":264.176,"end":278.121,"text":"我們現在這個整個目前的運作我們的能源政策我們到2030年是可以滿足30%的綠電的我們來講30%這個事情我先剛才講的剛剛這個去呂宋島這個建電廠另外一個問題就是國安那當然另外一個問題你現在一聽你講得太快所以又要緊嚴慎行嘛你又是一個團隊"},{"start":291.725,"end":320.156,"text":"你出來以後你像這台電也要對著後面以後要有個團隊所以內部要先溝通好不好是是是謝謝委員那回來你2030什麼重點重點人民今天最想聽到的你算是有擔當有肩膀啦你說這個如果拿到撥補兩年內如果電價再漲就是你告別的時候沒錯那你可以跟人民講嗎如果未來可以了撥補的事情我們等一下談啦你們跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價"},{"start":321.141,"end":346.533,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說這個如果能夠撥補2000億的話可以解決我台電的現在的財務狀況然後我每一年就不用付那麼多的這個利息這是第一個第二個我現在手上的這個資訊顯示我們台電的材料成本因為大部分的材料成本會漲價是因為我材料成本太高所以你說要補這2000億你就可以保證電價是不會再漲的很明確嘛"},{"start":351.035,"end":353.597,"text":"我是有擔當的但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情不是我能夠決定的但是我跟你保證"},{"start":373.086,"end":398.725,"text":"我從經營的角度下去我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益到時候你掛罐球去來又漲波普給你呢到時候你一個郭部長下台然後繼續漲電價人民大倒霉啊所以你現在做兩件事情第一個我沒有詳細看要不要給你波普很討厭第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價然後我跟你講齁你掛罐球去你無三毛不保的這個機率是很高我給你看一下我幫你算一下來來來你知道嗎今年2024年啊"},{"start":402.912,"end":423.449,"text":"你們比較好的 運氣比較好的燃料成本現在在降低了嘛所以你大概多賺了 省了380億你4月份漲電價 都收入了625億10月份就漲 這很過分喔你本來說撥補完就不漲了喔結果你現在漲了 今年多150億那如果加撥補 所以今年你可能可以賺150億可是這個建築再第一個"},{"start":426.671,"end":452.063,"text":"人民納稅前你又要一千億要進去了我就跟你講喔這一千億還不見得給你所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的這關係讓你烏紗帽我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高你看2005年2025年明年還有一個大的危機要一個大漏洞出來你買你河山廠的二號機要停對不對你以前是企業界的老闆啊"},{"start":454.5,"end":473.576,"text":"那個停下來少了204億喔!你那個洞要怎麼去補?這是一個大的問題喔!到了2026年你的嚴重性更高了!第一個,你核一廠跟核二廠,核一廠現在停機,今年停機以後反映出來的一個一號機就是204億對不對?這個就是成本嘛!"},{"start":478.162,"end":499.138,"text":"2號機械204億這是核電廠一個大的漏洞你要2022年進行你才是虧損被扒業的衣裳所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革你今天做這個保證啊從這個漏洞核電廠被你停機的這個這個另外一個危機我給你看下一個危機再生能源包括你剛剛說的你真的要去國外設什麼"},{"start":500.718,"end":518.363,"text":"這什麼電廠買綠電那些你現在買電現在都在高峰上面是不是你現在再生能源的價格現在買現在電的這個成本啊我問你一下齁現在平均我剛剛上你台電的官網看你現在平均的這個發電跟過電的成本是多少3.06你知道嗎風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎風力發電你台電的官網看到嗎"},{"start":531.314,"end":534.338,"text":"五點五點五九將近六六大順喔好你如果是太陽光電話這個"},{"start":548.195,"end":569.266,"text":"總經理多少?我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右4.88接近5塊,你的成本是3.06,你看看,我剛剛跟你講一個大家都沒有處理,核電廠一年的,如果加核一、核二、核三全部都停了,到明年就全部都停了"},{"start":570.529,"end":570.849,"text":"張啓楷財政活動"},{"start":581.946,"end":602.566,"text":"你保不住啊,你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住這兩個洞你根本都補不起來啊所以現在我做一個最具體的建議好不好你給我一個很明確的你到底要怎麼去做改革這兩個洞洞就好了一個再生能源你要更高的這個價格去買你要怎麼去達到你的再生能源的目標的同時你這個洞洞怎麼去補起來,第二個"},{"start":603.8,"end":603.98,"text":"報告：張啓楷"},{"start":627.71,"end":656.502,"text":"這個減下來6塊錢5塊減去減你年來3塊多4塊這個都是部長這個是科學問題是數學問題這差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛我問最後一個問題問最後一個問題本定現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案你們最近開了一個會阿經濟部跟法務部辦了一個會叫做防制綠能的犯罪壽談會你有去嘛對不對有你有去嘛對不對你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體的做法嗎"},{"start":657.307,"end":678.962,"text":"我們跟這個法務部都有在討論那法務部、農業部跟這個...你那個具體的做法送一份你明天送來辦公室好不好我看看你具體的我問你一個最重要的你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集哪一個你這個會啊你去參加啊防治力能犯罪這個座談會啊"},{"start":680.66,"end":688.977,"text":"你什麼人負責這個會?誰負責召集?院長室?院長室的政務委員召集的你經濟部什麼人負責?"},{"start":691.207,"end":715.909,"text":"這上面的召集人會議召集人為什麼是林文信報告這是個個案委員談的是說現在行政院有個治安會報治安會報啊 前幾天部長站起來啊法務部跟經濟部辦的防治力能犯罪授壇啊這上面的召集人是什麼人林文信啊我們不懂不懂不懂你什麼林文信什麼人"},{"start":717.651,"end":746.503,"text":"報告委員,我不熟你不是林文信,林文信同時你去開火林文信就是臺南八十八鄉立揚岸你們能源署的組長你不知道他現在還在這個位置,他還在負責召集沒有沒有沒有,他已經掉開了掉開,那為什麼我上面看到資料,他負責召集跟通知"},{"start":747.912,"end":774.919,"text":"各位朋友這個是在那一天開會議的時候牧寮在聯繫作業的時候那林文信目前已經調離了這個現職的位置蘇頂有驚訝嗎你今天開的是防治綠能犯罪他是綠能犯罪被起訴的人你這反差太大了吧你這黑色幽默嗎你在辦防治綠能再找一個你經濟部已經被台南地檢署起訴的人已經負責召集"},{"start":777.503,"end":786.365,"text":"這事情怎麼辦?我們現在已經把它調開了所以他不可能介入這個議題他現在就介入嘛那是過去啦我們要面對解決問題是在未來部長這個會非常重要你去法務部長連行政院長都去這會這麼重要?"},{"start":805.37,"end":831.175,"text":"來啦 我要講 先講事情 來來來 等一下等一下欸老蔣真的不要 這真的太離譜 這民眾會怎麼看你宣誓要防制力能犯罪阿他已經被起訴了所以第一個 他以前是光電組的組長不只要調離開 我覺得以後光電的事情他已經被起訴了嘛不只調職 他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦要靜候整個司法的這個審判好不好 這個要調離開"},{"start":833.342,"end":857.012,"text":"好先這樣子那等一下我剛講你在這個會場上你提了什麼樣讓我們光電必要可以減少你給我一個書妹好不好那剛剛講的更重要的喔人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價那你怎麼做到你那兩個大漏洞核能的一場二三場的那一千億怎麼補還有光電再生能源你買那麼多你這個漏洞那麼大你怎麼去補好不好這個多久兩個禮拜可以給我嗎"},{"start":858.646,"end":858.726,"text":"主席"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:54:55 - 11:09:35","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155540,"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時55分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早！"],["郭部長智輝：委員早！"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛說以後要謹言慎行，是不是要先送你一個「謹言慎行」的匾額？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：以後提醒你不要再天馬行空、講太快，要嗎？要送「謹言慎行」的匾額？"],["郭部長智輝：我可以不講話，但是天馬行空是我的習慣啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不過以後要謹言慎行。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：其實現在大家罵你到菲律賓去設這個電廠，你就縮回去，你知道問題出在哪邊嗎？為什麼被罵？或者需要謹言慎行？這是有幾個問題，第一個，你站在人民的角度，人民看到你要去設這個電廠，本來應該有好處啊，可是人民為什麼會生氣？成本太高嘛，對不對？如果買電，像你現在說的……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有可能啦！報告委員，這不可能，我怎麼會笨到會去買一個更貴的電來給臺灣，不可能啦！"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼你要縮回去？如果這比較貴，我看你現在是一個人往前衝喔！新聞裡面都說台電態度是保留的，剛才我看台電到今天的虧損是4,420億，如果真的如你說的到國外去發展綠電，有兩件事情對不對？第一個，光是海底電纜，你有算過海底電纜要多少錢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個不是叫台電去做的，只是說我如何透過民主同盟大家所關心的命題，我們建議在那個地方可以蓋一個電廠……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道啦！"],["郭部長智輝：可以分享給菲律賓，我們臺灣也可以從那個地方來買電。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你今天解釋的跟你昨天在媒體整個呈現的落差很大，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我說話都比較精簡啦！所以容易引起……"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在我要說，人民現在擔心的就是成本到底有沒有升高嘛，因為今天所有的焦點都在談，首先要建立一個海底電纜要多少成本，對不對？如果用船去運要多少成本，這是人民立場現在所想到的，因為這筆錢花下去，第一個，台電的虧損就繼續增高，這是一個點，對不對？第二點更重要喔！人民的電價要不要漲？"],["郭部長智輝：這個跟台電沒有正相關啦。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有正相關喔？"],["郭部長智輝：對！"],["張委員啓楷：好，你將詳細的報告給我們好了，對外你可能要說明清楚，因為現在所有的媒體呈現的，產官學跟人民質疑的都是這個嘛！第二個，還有一個問題，我問你一下，時間來得及嗎？這是另外一個問題……"],["郭部長智輝：所以沒有正相關嘛，這只是一個論壇上面討論的未來命題，也就是說對全球2050年淨零減碳這樣的命題，民主同盟他們可以互相支援，大家可以做什麼樣的事情，我就是擷取那句……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉、抱歉，我問一下啦！所以這個對臺灣到底有什麼好處？你說現在是綠電不夠，所以綠電要送回來，是我們臺灣電不夠，所以你就要做這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：未來2050年很快就會到了。"],["張委員啓楷：2050太遠了，2050你就不在這個位置了啊！我問你一下，現在真的是用海底電纜把綠電……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，2050我不一定在這個位置，但是我也不一定會活著啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你昨天說了一個例子，你說新加坡要去買澳洲的綠電，對不對？而且是用海底電纜嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：那什麼時候開始可以把綠電送到新加坡？什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：根據媒體的報告是2030年。"],["張委員啓楷：2030你還在嗎？我們現在缺電是缺……"],["郭部長智輝：我是還活著啦，但是不一定會在這個位置上。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦，你一定在啦！我是說你在不在經濟部長這個位置，好不好？依你的年齡跟健康，當然人會在啦！"],["郭部長智輝：不可能，我不可能。"],["張委員啓楷：你那時候應該不在經濟部長的位置，那個時間點就來不及了。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦，我沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：現在我們是電不夠，還是綠電不夠的問題嘛，你去提了一個2030年以後才能實現的事情。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在整個目前的運作、我們的能源政策，到2030年可以滿足30%的綠電。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來談30%這件事情，就像我剛才所說的，剛剛這件去呂宋島建電廠還有另外一個問題就是國安，當然另外一個問題就是說……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，這就是……"],["張委員啓楷：你今天就一直說是你講得太快，所以以後你要謹言慎行。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：但你又是一個團隊，當你說出來之後，最少台電也要跟在後面啊！你以後要有一個團隊，所以內部要先溝通，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，以後請你多多指導。"],["張委員啓楷：好。現在是重點，人民今天最想聽到的，你算是有擔當、有肩膀，你說如果拿到撥補，兩年內如果電價再漲，就是你告別的時候？"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：那你可以跟人民講嗎？如果未來……"],["郭部長智輝：可以的。"],["張委員啓楷：撥補的事情我們等一下談，你能不能跟人民保證未來兩年內都不會漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，如果能夠撥補2,000億的話，就可以解決台電現在的財務狀況，我每一年就不用付那麼多的利息，這是第一個。第二個，我手上現在的資訊顯示台電的材料成本太高，會漲價是因為我材料成本太高，所以在未來……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我跟你講，我知道意思，所以你是說只要補這2,000億，你就可以保證電價不會再漲了，很明確嘛！如果……"],["郭部長智輝：如果……"],["張委員啓楷：撥不撥補我們等一下來進一步討論，第二個，如果有撥補，再漲電價，你就掛冠求去嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你是有肩膀、有擔當的，要說清楚，跟人民講清楚！"],["郭部長智輝：我是有擔當的，但是漲不漲電價是電價審議委員的事情，不是我能夠決定的，但是我跟你保證，我從經營的角度下去，我從這個公司的成本跟公司的效益……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，人民要的是不要漲價啦！到時候你掛冠求去之後又漲，撥補給你了，到時候你一個郭部長下臺，然後繼續漲電價，人民倒楣啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你現在要做兩件事情，第一個我們會詳細看要不要給你撥補；第二個就是你要保證絕對不能漲電價，然後我跟你講，你掛冠求去、你烏紗帽不保的機率很高，我給你看一下、我幫你算一下。","你知道嗎？今年2024年，你們運氣比較好，因為燃料成本現在在降低，所以你大概省了380億，你4月份漲電價，收入多了625億，10月份又漲，這很過分喔！你本來說撥補完就不漲了，結果你現在漲了，今年多150億，如果加撥補，所以今年你可能可以賺150億，可是第一個，這個建築在人民的納稅錢，你1,000億又要進去了，我跟你說，這1,000還不見得會給你，所以今年台電還是有可能虧損的更嚴重。部長，這關係到你烏紗帽，我覺得你烏紗帽保不住的機率非常非常高！你看2025年，明年還有一個大的危機、有一個大漏洞出來，你明年核三廠的2號機要停，對不對？你以前是企業界的老闆，那個停下來會少204億，那個洞你要怎麼去補？這是一個大的問題。到了2026年，你的嚴重性更高了，第一個……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：拜託讓我講完。核一廠跟核二廠，核一廠現在停機，今年停機，以後反映出來就是一個1號機就是204億，對不對？這個就是成本嘛！2號機又204億，這是核電廠一個大的漏洞，如果到了2026年，正常來講你應該是虧損800億以上。所以我說你如果沒有去做另外的改革，你今天做這個保證，從這個漏洞──核電廠被你停機的……","我給你看下一個危機，即再生能源，包括你今天說的，你真的要去國外設什麼電廠、買綠電那一些，你現在會有一個大問題，是什麼你知道嗎？你現在要買電，但都在高峰上面，是不是？現在再生能源的價格，部長可以看一下現在買電的成本，我問你一下，我剛剛上台電官網看了，現在平均發電跟購電的成本1度3.06，你知道嗎？風力發電要多少錢你知道嗎？風力發電？你去台電的官網看就知道，6.59，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：風力平均5塊2。"],["張委員啓楷：5塊2嘛！對外購買的話，今天啦！我今天上去看的是5.59，將近66大順喔！如果是太陽光電是多少？總經理，多少？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們這邊的太陽光電平均是4.88左右。"],["張委員啓楷：4.88，接近5塊，你的成本是3.06，你看看，我剛剛已經跟你講，你有一個大漏洞沒有處理，如果核一、核二、核三全部都停了，到明年全部就停了，對不對？至少1,000億的財政漏洞，第二個，你現在碰到再生能源，我剛剛算給你聽了，你的電價、你購電的成本比平常多了兩倍，你保不住啊！你這烏紗帽怎麼保得住？這兩個洞你根本都補不起來。","現在我做一個最具體的建議，好不好？你給我一個很明確的、你到底要怎麼去改革，看是要怎麼去做，就這兩個漏洞就好了，第一個，你如果要用更高的價格去買再生能源，在達到你再生能源目標的同時，你這個漏洞要怎麼去補起來？第二個，核電這部分要怎麼去補？第一件事情很清楚，請你跟民眾講，不會因為這兩個大漏洞去漲電價，這是第一個，第二個，你給我一個詳細的計畫，這兩個大漏洞要怎麼補起來，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們現在民生的電價是2.77元1度，我們平均電價是接近4塊錢，所以事實上目前……"],["張委員啓楷：總經理，漏洞還是很大，對不對？這個減下來，6塊錢、5塊錢去減你原來三塊多、4塊，部長，你算看看，這是科學問題，也是數學問題，差不多國小學生看就知道這是個漏洞嘛？","我問最後一個問題，部長，現在一個大的漏洞就是太陽能光電的弊案，你們最近開了一個會，經濟部跟法務部辦一個會叫做防制綠能犯罪座談會，你有去嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["張委員啓楷：你有去嘛，對不對？你有針對以後怎麼避免產生弊案提出具體作法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟法務部都有在討論，法務部、農業部跟……"],["張委員啓楷：你明天將具體的作法送一份到辦公室，好不好？我看一下你具體的作法，我問你一個最重要的，你知道這個座談會是誰負責召集？"],["郭部長智輝：哪一個？"],["張委員啓楷：你去參加的這個會，防制綠能犯罪座談會，誰負責這個會？誰負責召集？"],["郭部長智輝：院長室的政務委員召集的。"],["張委員啓楷：經濟部是由誰負責的？怎麼我看到公文上面，署長……"],["郭部長智輝：署長去的。"],["張委員啓楷：署長，上面的會議召集人為什麼是林文信？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，這是個個案，委員談的是現在行政院有個治安會報……"],["張委員啓楷：不是治安會報啊！前幾天部長去的，法務部跟經濟部辦的防制綠能犯罪座談會，這上面的召集人是誰？林文信，等一下，部長，你知不知道林文信是誰？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我不熟。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你不知道林文信是誰，林文信通知你們去開會。"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：林文信就是臺南88槍力暘案，你們能源署的組長！兩個重點，第一，你不知道他現在還在這個位置，他還在負責召集，這個很諷刺啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，他已經調開了。"],["張委員啓楷：調開？那為什麼我上面看到資料是他負責召集跟通知？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這個是在那一天開會議的時候，幕僚在聯繫作業的時候，林文信目前已經調離這個現職的位置了。"],["張委員啓楷：署長跟部長，你今天開的會是防制綠能犯罪，他是因為綠能犯罪被起訴的人，你這反差太大了吧！你這黑色幽默嗎？你在辦防制綠能，結果經濟部找一個已經被臺南地檢署起訴的人去負責召集，這事情怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經把他調開了。"],["張委員啓楷：你請鬼拿藥單嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在已經把他調開了……"],["張委員啓楷：不只調開嘛！第一個……"],["郭部長智輝：所以他不可能介入這個議題。"],["張委員啓楷：但他現在就介入嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！那是過去啦！報告委員，你也了解……"],["張委員啓楷：過去？這是他負責的會耶！部長……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要面對問題，解決問題是在未來……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個會非常重要，你去、法務部長也去，連行政院長都去，這會重要不重要？我跟你說，兩件事情，第一個，講真的不要這樣，這真的太離譜，民眾會怎麼看？你宣示要防制綠能犯罪，他已經被起訴了，所以第一個，他以前是光電組的組長，不只要調離開，他已經被起訴了嘛？不只調職，他以後光電的事情就不能再碰了啦！要靜候整個司法的審判，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：這個要調離開，先這樣子，就我剛講的，你在這個會場上提了什麼樣的作法以減少我們光電的弊案，你給我一個書面，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的更重要，人民要的是保證兩年內不能漲電價，你要怎麼做到？你那兩個大漏洞，即核能的一廠、二、三廠的1,000億要怎麼補？還有光電再生能源你買那麼多，你這個漏洞那麼大，你要怎麼去補，好不好？這個多久能給我？兩個禮拜可以給我吧？你依照時程去訂嘛，你什麼時候要做到什麼地方，例如半年內要怎麼去補多少錢嘛？我知道你有做一些改革，例如說現在行政院也答應你，學校跟機關你就省了40億嘛，對不對？這個是有展現企業家的經營能力啦！至於其他你要怎麼去補，你在兩個禮拜給我一個計畫，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","陳超明","郭國文","賴士葆","萬美玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","黃國昌","王育敏","陳昭姿","高金素梅","廖偉翔","黃健豪","葉元之","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","涂權吉","何欣純","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","林思銘","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進\n行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138401_00017"}}}