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\"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 68.762, \"end\": 69.263, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 69.263, \"end\": 69.903, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 69.903, \"end\": 70.123, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 70.123, \"end\": 70.344, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 70.344, \"end\": 70.564, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 70.564, \"end\": 70.764, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 70.764, \"end\": 71.044, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 71.044, \"end\": 71.224, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 71.224, \"end\": 71.444, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 71.444, \"end\": 71.725, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 71.725, \"end\": 72.685, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 72.685, \"end\": 72.845, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 72.845, \"end\": 73.546, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 73.546, \"end\": 73.686, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 73.686, \"end\": 73.926, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 73.926, \"end\": 74.907, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 74.907, \"end\": 75.027, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 75.027, \"end\": 75.127, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 75.127, \"end\": 75.247, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 75.247, \"end\": 75.387, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 75.387, \"end\": 75.728, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 75.728, \"end\": 75.848, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 75.848, \"end\": 75.968, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 75.968, \"end\": 76.128, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 76.128, \"end\": 76.288, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 76.288, \"end\": 76.388, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 76.388, \"end\": 76.528, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 76.528, \"end\": 77.369, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 77.369, \"end\": 78.03, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 78.03, \"end\": 78.17, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 78.17, \"end\": 78.63, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 78.63, \"end\": 78.95, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 78.95, \"end\": 79.11, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 79.11, \"end\": 79.451, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 79.451, \"end\": 79.631, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 79.631, \"end\": 79.791, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 79.791, \"end\": 79.931, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 79.931, \"end\": 80.071, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 80.071, \"end\": 80.251, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 80.251, \"end\": 80.391, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 80.391, \"end\": 80.471, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 80.471, \"end\": 80.491, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 81.312, \"end\": 83.394, \"text\": \"如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 81.312, \"end\": 81.532, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 81.532, \"end\": 81.652, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 81.652, \"end\": 81.672, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 81.672, \"end\": 81.732, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"打\", \"start\": 81.732, \"end\": 81.752, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 81.752, \"end\": 81.772, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 81.772, 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 107.99, \"end\": 110.191, \"text\": \"我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 107.99, \"end\": 108.15, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 108.15, \"end\": 108.51, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 108.51, \"end\": 108.53, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 108.53, \"end\": 108.61, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 108.61, \"end\": 108.63, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 108.63, \"end\": 108.73, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 108.73, \"end\": 108.811, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 108.811, \"end\": 108.951, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.951, \"end\": 108.991, \"score\": 0.035}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.991, \"end\": 109.011, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 109.011, \"end\": 109.151, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 109.151, \"end\": 109.211, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 109.211, \"end\": 109.231, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 109.231, \"end\": 109.251, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 109.251, \"end\": 109.391, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 109.391, \"end\": 109.471, \"score\": 0.481}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 109.471, \"end\": 109.571, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 109.571, \"end\": 109.711, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 109.711, \"end\": 109.831, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 109.831, \"end\": 109.851, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 109.851, \"end\": 110.011, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 110.011, \"end\": 110.031, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 110.031, \"end\": 110.171, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 110.171, \"end\": 110.191, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 126.221, \"end\": 126.321, \"text\": \"沒有錯﹖\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 126.221, \"end\": 126.301, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 126.301, \"end\": 126.321, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"﹖\"}]}, {\"start\": 145.857, \"end\": 145.957, \"text\": \"黃健豪議員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"健\", \"start\": 145.857, \"end\": 145.937, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 145.937, \"end\": 145.957, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 175.837, \"end\": 194.07, \"text\": \"那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 175.837, \"end\": 175.977, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 175.977, \"end\": 176.177, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 176.177, \"end\": 176.878, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 176.878, 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\"start\": 180.801, \"end\": 180.921, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 180.921, \"end\": 181.061, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 181.061, \"end\": 181.161, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 181.161, \"end\": 181.381, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 181.381, \"end\": 181.561, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 181.561, \"end\": 182.122, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 182.122, \"end\": 182.382, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"拆\", \"start\": 182.382, \"end\": 183.082, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"帳\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 183.082, \"end\": 183.783, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 183.783, \"end\": 183.903, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 183.903, \"end\": 184.003, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 184.003, \"end\": 184.143, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 184.143, \"end\": 184.503, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 184.503, \"end\": 184.603, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 184.603, \"end\": 184.764, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 184.764, \"end\": 185.264, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 185.264, \"end\": 185.384, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 185.384, \"end\": 186.165, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 186.165, \"end\": 186.265, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 186.265, \"end\": 186.405, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 186.405, \"end\": 186.565, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 186.565, \"end\": 186.665, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 186.665, \"end\": 186.765, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 186.765, \"end\": 187.185, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 187.185, \"end\": 187.345, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 187.345, \"end\": 187.786, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 187.786, \"end\": 187.926, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 187.926, \"end\": 188.026, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 188.026, \"end\": 188.746, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 188.746, \"end\": 188.867, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 188.867, \"end\": 189.107, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 189.107, \"end\": 189.767, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 189.767, \"end\": 189.947, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 189.947, \"end\": 190.168, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 190.168, \"end\": 190.348, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"好\", 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193.37, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 193.37, \"end\": 193.63, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 193.63, \"end\": 194.05, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 194.05, \"end\": 194.07, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 195.231, \"end\": 218.086, \"text\": \"那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 195.231, \"end\": 195.371, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 195.371, \"end\": 195.972, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 195.972, \"end\": 196.292, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 196.292, \"end\": 196.492, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 196.492, \"end\": 196.712, \"score\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,016 --> 00:00:04,705\n好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,438 --> 00:00:37,608\n部長我們先速速的討論一下這個外送的部分大家都是民生大家特別關心這個外送運價基準則目前有預告那這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃那包含了基本運費、夜店加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓神費這些東西的條件那我想問一下部長這個所謂的這個加價的部分未來\n\n3\n00:00:38,829 --> 00:00:57,716\n加價假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給\n\n4\n00:01:04,699 --> 00:01:20,491\n外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得\n\n5\n00:01:21,312 --> 00:01:23,394\n如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個\n\n6\n00:01:47,990 --> 00:01:50,191\n我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配\n\n7\n00:02:06,221 --> 00:02:06,321\n沒有錯﹖\n\n8\n00:02:25,857 --> 00:02:25,957\n黃健豪議員\n\n9\n00:02:55,837 --> 00:03:14,070\n那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題\n\n10\n00:03:15,231 --> 00:03:38,086\n那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去\n\n11\n00:03:38,886 --> 00:04:05,861\n所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層這理論上都是非常個體的事情就是你是針對我今天作為外送員我送去那邊我應該是晚上所以我要加收就像計程車一樣嘛夜間有加收那延遲我這邊等所以我要加收那春節我要出來加班所以我要加收那如果這期前最後一樣回到平台的話\n\n12\n00:04:08,963 --> 00:04:28,679\n其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的\n\n13\n00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:56,241\n那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的要給外送員\n\n14\n00:04:56,821 --> 00:04:56,981\n主席\n\n15\n00:05:06,937 --> 00:05:06,977\n公務部長\n\n16\n00:05:34,641 --> 00:05:53,599\n大客車價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人所以理論上來講\n\n17\n00:05:55,361 --> 00:06:12,761\n如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少的那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次\n\n18\n00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:14,910\n黃健豪\n\n19\n00:06:32,449 --> 00:06:32,589\n李卓人議員\n\n20\n00:06:57,629 --> 00:07:23,549\n所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦所有的勞工左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是來留錢不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分對\n\n21\n00:07:24,309 --> 00:07:51,535\n所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管\n\n22\n00:07:52,515 --> 00:08:04,567\n全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個\n\n23\n00:08:07,725 --> 00:08:09,486\n我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理\n\n24\n00:08:35,487 --> 00:08:35,647\n主席\n\n25\n00:08:51,251 --> 00:09:07,902\n講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了\n\n26\n00:09:08,662 --> 00:09:26,093\n所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來因為現在最核心最最最大問題很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的\n\n27\n00:09:26,513 --> 00:09:26,693\n李卓人議員\n\n28\n00:09:42,734 --> 00:09:42,774\n劉仲敬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3016\t4705\t好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長\n15438\t37608\t部長我們先速速的討論一下這個外送的部分大家都是民生大家特別關心這個外送運價基準則目前有預告那這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃那包含了基本運費、夜店加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓神費這些東西的條件那我想問一下部長這個所謂的這個加價的部分未來\n38829\t57716\t加價假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給\n64699\t80491\t外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得\n81312\t83394\t如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個\n107990\t110191\t我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配\n126221\t126321\t沒有錯﹖\n145857\t145957\t黃健豪議員\n175837\t194070\t那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題\n195231\t218086\t那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去\n218886\t245861\t所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層這理論上都是非常個體的事情就是你是針對我今天作為外送員我送去那邊我應該是晚上所以我要加收就像計程車一樣嘛夜間有加收那延遲我這邊等所以我要加收那春節我要出來加班所以我要加收那如果這期前最後一樣回到平台的話\n248963\t268679\t其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的\n269480\t296241\t那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的要給外送員\n296821\t296981\t主席\n306937\t306977\t公務部長\n334641\t353599\t大客車價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人所以理論上來講\n355361\t372761\t如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少的那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次\n374790\t374910\t黃健豪\n392449\t392589\t李卓人議員\n417629\t443549\t所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦所有的勞工 左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是來留錢不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分對\n444309\t471535\t所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管\n472515\t484567\t全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個\n487725\t489486\t我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理\n515487\t515647\t主席\n531251\t547902\t講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了\n548662\t566093\t所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來因為現在最核心最最最大問題很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的\n566513\t566693\t李卓人議員\n582734\t582774\t劉仲敬\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長\n部長我們先速速的討論一下這個外送的部分大家都是民生大家特別關心這個外送運價基準則目前有預告那這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃那包含了基本運費、夜店加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓神費這些東西的條件那我想問一下部長這個所謂的這個加價的部分未來\n加價假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給\n外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得\n如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個\n我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配\n沒有錯﹖\n黃健豪議員\n那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題\n那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去\n所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層這理論上都是非常個體的事情就是你是針對我今天作為外送員我送去那邊我應該是晚上所以我要加收就像計程車一樣嘛夜間有加收那延遲我這邊等所以我要加收那春節我要出來加班所以我要加收那如果這期前最後一樣回到平台的話\n其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的\n那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的要給外送員\n主席\n公務部長\n大客車價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人所以理論上來講\n如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少的那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次\n黃健豪\n李卓人議員\n所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦所有的勞工 左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是來留錢不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分對\n所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管\n全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個\n我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理\n主席\n講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了\n所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來因為現在最核心最最最大問題很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的\n李卓人議員\n劉仲敬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.016 --> 00:04.705\n好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長\n\n00:15.438 --> 00:37.608\n部長我們先速速的討論一下這個外送的部分大家都是民生大家特別關心這個外送運價基準則目前有預告那這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃那包含了基本運費、夜店加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓神費這些東西的條件那我想問一下部長這個所謂的這個加價的部分未來\n\n00:38.829 --> 00:57.716\n加價假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給\n\n01:04.699 --> 01:20.491\n外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得\n\n01:21.312 --> 01:23.394\n如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個\n\n01:47.990 --> 01:50.191\n我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配\n\n02:06.221 --> 02:06.321\n沒有錯﹖\n\n02:25.857 --> 02:25.957\n黃健豪議員\n\n02:55.837 --> 03:14.070\n那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題\n\n03:15.231 --> 03:38.086\n那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去\n\n03:38.886 --> 04:05.861\n所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層這理論上都是非常個體的事情就是你是針對我今天作為外送員我送去那邊我應該是晚上所以我要加收就像計程車一樣嘛夜間有加收那延遲我這邊等所以我要加收那春節我要出來加班所以我要加收那如果這期前最後一樣回到平台的話\n\n04:08.963 --> 04:28.679\n其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的\n\n04:29.480 --> 04:56.241\n那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的要給外送員\n\n04:56.821 --> 04:56.981\n主席\n\n05:06.937 --> 05:06.977\n公務部長\n\n05:34.641 --> 05:53.599\n大客車價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人所以理論上來講\n\n05:55.361 --> 06:12.761\n如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少的那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次\n\n06:14.790 --> 06:14.910\n黃健豪\n\n06:32.449 --> 06:32.589\n李卓人議員\n\n06:57.629 --> 07:23.549\n所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦所有的勞工左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是來留錢不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分對\n\n07:24.309 --> 07:51.535\n所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管\n\n07:52.515 --> 08:04.567\n全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個\n\n08:07.725 --> 08:09.486\n我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理\n\n08:35.487 --> 08:35.647\n主席\n\n08:51.251 --> 09:07.902\n講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了\n\n09:08.662 --> 09:26.093\n所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來因為現在最核心最最最大問題很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的\n\n09:26.513 --> 09:26.693\n李卓人議員\n\n09:42.734 --> 09:42.774\n劉仲敬\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.016,"end":4.705,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":15.438,"end":37.608,"text":"部長我們先速速的討論一下這個外送的部分大家都是民生大家特別關心這個外送運價基準則目前有預告那這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃那包含了基本運費、夜店加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓神費這些東西的條件那我想問一下部長這個所謂的這個加價的部分未來"},{"start":38.829,"end":57.716,"text":"加價假設的成功這個法律通過了之後這個加價的錢是進哪裡報告委員第一他不一定是加價我們現在只是把計算的可能性的方式拿出來讓大家討論因為現在法令還在預告期所以他不一定是加價這筆錢以後會到哪裡去是進到平我的問題說這個錢比如說假設有這樣的公司出來了那這個費用是給"},{"start":64.699,"end":80.491,"text":"外送員還是給平台業者報告委員目前的狀況是這個樣子外送平台他們一定有收運費但那個運費不透明所以你也不曉得你被收了多少運費那運費到底到外送員手上有多少也不曉得"},{"start":81.312,"end":83.394,"text":"如果今天打斷你一下你今天講說要把這個準則把它列清楚這個"},{"start":107.99,"end":110.191,"text":"我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化運價的透明化那至於他怎麼分配"},{"start":126.221,"end":126.321,"text":"沒有錯﹖"},{"start":145.857,"end":145.957,"text":"黃健豪議員"},{"start":175.837,"end":194.07,"text":"那如果今天運價運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來但是裡面如果沒有包含這怎麼拆帳的話那其實他一樣回到商業機制啦那如果回到商業機制當初訂這個法律的條件報告委員當時候其實有好多的討論因為包含立法院也相當多的委員很關心這個議題"},{"start":195.231,"end":218.086,"text":"那也討論過相當多次也有跨部會的協調也有協調過那各部會給我們的反應就是說當你最上位的運費沒有確定的時候他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立所以這是最上位的我剛一直強調最上位就是說我們這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚你像這個員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少這個部分就沒有辦法走下去"},{"start":218.886,"end":245.861,"text":"所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已應該這樣講啦這是我的建議啦你說你基本運費當然平台收走了可是你說夜間、延遲、春節、樓層這理論上都是非常個體的事情就是你是針對我今天作為外送員我送去那邊我應該是晚上所以我要加收就像計程車一樣嘛夜間有加收那延遲我這邊等所以我要加收那春節我要出來加班所以我要加收那如果這期前最後一樣回到平台的話"},{"start":248.963,"end":268.679,"text":"其實我們把它運價透明化的因素也就是說剛剛委員所提到的很不希望所有的運費或者是費用全部到平台那裡去所以要有一個透明的過程大家才知道不然現在平台其實基本上也不會告訴店家也不會告訴外送員甚至消費者所看到的運費的計價也不一定是真實的"},{"start":269.48,"end":296.241,"text":"那我們希望讓他透明化之後在各方面要做分配或者是說有什麼意見的時候到時候比較容易來做處理部長我的希望就是因為你既然把這個條件雖然是預告階段那既然條件都那麼清楚了但是我希望這個要做完這一點哪些加收的部分因為運費我就講運費就運費但是加收的部分我覺得你應該還是在這個條件裡面應該要所謂的該給外送員的要給外送員"},{"start":296.821,"end":296.981,"text":"主席"},{"start":306.937,"end":306.977,"text":"公務部長"},{"start":334.641,"end":353.599,"text":"大客車價值執照每年每年基本上八九萬跑不掉但是實際上真正在開車的人從103年近10年來從6400多人現在降到3500多人所以整個台灣社會大客車價值就直接少了3000人所以理論上來講"},{"start":355.361,"end":372.761,"text":"如果大客車的人數邏輯上來講能開車的人變少的那理論上在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少但實際上就沒有嘛實際上客車還是一樣這麼多這麼多在開那什麼原因造成的那就是代表現有的這個3500多人他去承擔了過去6000人要開的車次"},{"start":374.79,"end":374.91,"text":"黃健豪"},{"start":392.449,"end":392.589,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":417.629,"end":443.549,"text":"所以部長你對這個事情有什麼看法委員你這樣講齁我看這樣子看起來確實是不合理交通部一直在努力在做補貼在做補助我們希望駕駛人員可以來增加但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低然後底薪尤其是底薪啦所有的勞工 左邊一萬二啦右邊那個是來留錢不同公司的左邊的一萬二右邊這兩張不同的大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高因為這關係到退休退休金的部分對"},{"start":444.309,"end":471.535,"text":"所以他不應該是這樣處理但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府那我們會要求地方政府就是說落實針對駕駛人員的這個他的薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的我們會來拜託地方政府來協助這一塊因為當然地方政府是執行單位啦那我們期待就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題如果全台灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局是交通部在管"},{"start":472.515,"end":484.567,"text":"全台灣的大客車駕駛它的如果底薪各自都不一樣而且是這樣低薪的狀況那造成的結果是全台灣各家業者之間推出來的薪水長這樣駕駛員長這樣子那當然第一個"},{"start":487.725,"end":489.486,"text":"我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者大家針對這個駕駛人員的這個薪資的合理化這個部分我們來處理"},{"start":515.487,"end":515.647,"text":"主席"},{"start":531.251,"end":547.902,"text":"講白了這些客運現有的客運業者或客運駕駛他真的犯規的人他也皮皮啊反正市場就不夠反正所有業者都要去搶我這個人口需要我這個人力所以他就算真的犯錯他真的怎麼樣你就算懲處他他也不怕他離開這間公司他去下一間公司就好了"},{"start":548.662,"end":566.093,"text":"所以一樣的駕駛一樣的悲劇會一再一再重演所以這個東西要拜託啦你如果薪資有達到一定的基本的保障一定的水準你才有可能去把這個駕駛找回來因為現在最核心最最最大問題很多駕駛他有大貨車駕照的大客車駕照的他可以做很多事情的"},{"start":566.513,"end":566.693,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":582.734,"end":582.774,"text":"劉仲敬"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:50:48 - 11:00:48","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","id":155543,"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時51分）謝謝主席，先請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我們先速速地討論一下外送的部分，這是民生的議題，大家都特別關心。外送運價準則目前有預告，這個是全國外送工會初步的規劃，包含了基本運費、夜間加收、延遲費用、春節加收跟樓層費這些東西的條件。我想問一下部長，所謂加價的部分未來假設能成功，這個法律通過了之後，這個加價的錢是進哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，第一，它不一定是加價，我們現在只是把計算的可能性方式拿出來讓大家討論，因為現在法令還在預告期，所以它不一定是加價，未來在討論……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，這筆錢以後會到哪裡去？我的問題是，這個錢比如假設有這樣的公式出來了，這個費用是給外送員，還是給平臺業者？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前的狀況是這個樣子，外送平臺他們一定有收運費，但那個運費不透明，所以你也不曉得被收了多少運費，運費到底到了外送員手上有多少也不曉得，我們要制訂這樣子的準則出來的原因，是希望未來的運費要透明化，我們的重點是在於透明化，最上位的運費必須要透明化，才有辦法看得出來到底外送平臺在每一單裡面它賺到了多少錢，還有它賺到的錢裡面分給外送員多少、店家分了多少……"],["黃委員健豪：對不起，打斷你一下，你今天講說要把這個準則列清楚，假設我每叫一單，我付的錢裡面多少錢是食物、多少錢是運費？如果以今天這個修正草案的準則裡面，這次並沒有包含給外送員多少錢的費用，如果你要把它明定……"],["陳部長世凱：當然……"],["黃委員健豪：你會明定出來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是只有做最上位的運費的透明化、運價的透明化，至於它怎麼分配，那是一個商業機制。再來就是說，勞工權益的部分，是勞動部到時候可能會來協助的。至於店家的部分，它有可能跟衛福部會有關係。至於平臺管理的部分也不在交通部，這個部分會是在數位部。"],["黃委員健豪：部長這樣講，變成這個是跨部會的啦！"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：那你們跨部會有小組嗎？因為你今天推運價出來，為什麼大家今天討論這個，我必須講，這樣有點為德不卒啦！如果只是把運費的機制訂出來，好！就我剛剛講的嘛！消費者付了這個錢，如果最後一樣是交由平臺自己去分配多少額度是給外送員，我們當初認知是說運價透明化之後，可能可以照顧到勞工外送員的部分，如果今天運費這麼明確的每一條都訂出來，但是裡面如果沒有包含怎麼拆帳的話，其他一樣回到商業機制，如果今天回到商業機制，當初訂這個法律條件……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時其實有好多的討論，因為包含立法院有相當多的委員很關心這個議題，也討論過相當多次，也有跨部會協調過，各部會給我們的反映就是，當最上位的運費沒有確定的時候，他們其他的部分沒有辦法進來訂立，所以這是最上位的，我剛一直強調最上位就是說，這個部分如果沒有訂立清楚，像員工應該分多少或店家應該分多少，這個部分就沒有辦法走下去，所以我們只能處理最上面這一端而已。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，部長，應該這樣講啦！當然這是我的建議啦！基本運費當然平臺收走了，可是夜間、延遲、春節、樓層等理論上都非常個體的事情，就是你是針對今天做為外送員送去那邊，應該是晚上，所以要加收，就像計程車一樣，夜間有加收；那延遲，因為在這邊等，所以要加收；春節要出來加班，所以要加收。如果這些最後一樣回到平臺的話，不就沒有意義了嗎？那跟現在不就差不多？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們把運價透明化的因素，也就是剛剛委員所提到的，很不希望所有運費或者是費用全部到平臺那裡去，所以要有一個透明的過程，大家才知道，不然現在平臺其實基本上也不會告訴店家，也不會告訴外送員，甚至消費者所看到的運費計價也不一定是真實的，那我們希望讓它透明化之後，在各方面要做分配，或者是有什麼意見的時候，到時候比較容易來做處理。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，雖然是預告階段，既然條件都那麼清楚了，但是我希望要做就把它做完整一點，哪些加收的部分，因為運費，運費就運費，但是加收的部分，我覺得在這些條件裡面應該給外送員的要給外送員，你要讓消費者買單的時候知道說我付了這些運費，整體的運費裡面包含加價的部分，哪些是給平臺業者？哪些是給店家？哪些是給外送員？不然大家會覺得訂了這樣的標準，很有可能潛在的可能性是，好像大家覺得價格又上升，加上現在討論到說現在Uber跟foodpanda兩家會不會有壟斷的問題嗎？這是另外議題。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：但是如果今天只剩下一家的時候，我想這個東西會對消費者權益造成影響，我們希望規劃能夠完整一點好不好，部長？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員健豪：繼續討論到公路的部分，最近大家對大客車的問題也是非常在意，當然大客車的駕駛執照每年基本上八、九萬跑不掉，但是實際上真正在開車的人，近十年來，自103年，從六千四百多人現在降到三千五百多人，所以整個臺灣社會大客車駕駛人數直接少了3,000人，我們再講一下，如果大客車的人數，邏輯上能開車的人是變少了，在路上跑的大客車理論上應該也要變少，但實際上就沒有嘛！實際上客車還是一樣這麼多，這麼多的人在開，什麼原因造成的呢？那就是代表現有的三千五百多人去承擔了過去6,000人要開的車次，那是什麼？那就是過勞的問題嘛！等於勞動條件不好，我也知道政府針對大客車也有很多補助，補助很多，最高可能可以領到13萬，這是理想上，但實際上我們怎麼看，我們看到這個薪資所得，這個是我們收到的爆料，當然他的薪資本俸非常、非常低，底薪只有一萬二，剩下的有的、沒有的津貼加起來之後，可能才有八萬多塊，所以他的本俸是很低的，他的本薪這麼低，要靠這麼多有的、沒有的、載客的、伙食等獎金，他才能加到這個部分，這個底薪1萬2,000，其實我覺得真的是用這個底薪怎麼會找得到足夠的司機呢？所以部長，你對這個事情有什麼看法？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，你這樣講，我這樣子看起來確實是不合理，交通部一直在努力做補貼、做補助，我們希望駕駛人員可以增加，但實際上他們領到的數額或許是非常的低，然後尤其是底薪啦！所有的勞工……"],["黃委員健豪：左邊1萬2,000，右邊是才6,000，不同公司的，這兩張不同。"],["陳部長世凱：大部分的勞工都會希望自己的基本底薪要高，因為這關係到退休金的部分，所以他不應該是這樣處理，但是這個部分的管轄應該是在地方政府，那我們會要求地方政府落實針對駕駛人員薪資的部分應該要怎麼給付對駕駛員來講是比較合理的，我們會拜託地方政府來協助這一塊，因為這個部分不是交通部能夠管轄的。"],["黃委員健豪：對，因為地方政府是執行單位啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：那我們期待，就像你剛剛提到很多是上位原則的問題，全臺灣的大客車畢竟還是公路局、是交通部在管，全臺灣的大客車駕駛如果底薪各自都不一樣，而且是這樣低薪的狀況，造成的結果是全臺灣各家業者之間提出來的薪水是長這樣，駕駛員的是長這樣子，那當然第一個最嚴重的問題是，人一直在減少，我剛剛提到六千多降到三千多人……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯。"],["黃委員健豪：人變少了，車還是一樣多，那一定會有過勞的問題，不得不繼續開，交通部也提了很多方案說要增加大家的薪水，問題是增加薪水的本身就是因為它是來自於這些有的、沒有的條件，他才能夠真的加薪到。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會同地方政府一起來協助這些公運業者，大家針對駕駛人員薪資的合理化，這個部分我們來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：為什麼這個事情要特別提出來？就像今天，我想今天媒體報導，因為駕駛員減少，所以你提了再多的處分、再多的懲處給業者說，如果這些大客車駕駛沒有開好車的話，要罰你多少錢，要對你怎麼樣，講白了，現有的客運業者或客運駕駛真的犯規的人，他也皮皮，反正市場就不夠，所有業者都還是搶我這個人口，需要我這個人力，所以他就算真的犯錯，他真的怎麼樣，你就算懲處他，他也不怕，反正他離開這間公司後，再去下一間公司就好了，而一樣的駕駛、一樣的悲劇會一再一再地重演，所以這個東西要拜託了。如果薪資有達到一定的基本保障、一定的水準，你才有可能把這個駕駛找回來，因為現在最核心、最大的問題就是很多駕駛是有大客車駕照的，所以他可以做很多事情，他可以開大貨車送貨就好，甚至開Uber也可以，送Uber也可以，他不一定要來開這個所謂的大客車，因此，我覺得應該要把薪資條件定型化一點，不能交由各地方政府來處理。誠如我剛剛提到的，以臺中為例好了，今天這個駕駛出事了，他改去南投開，可不可以？他改去彰化開，可不可以？他跑去外縣市開，你根本不知道嘛！所以我覺得在整體解決駕駛安全的問題時，薪資要先調整，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，勞動條件要提升，這是必然要做的。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來邀請邱若華委員。我們在邱若華委員質詢之後，休息10分鐘，休息之後，我們處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-6","speakers":["陳素月","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","魯明哲","廖先翔","黃健豪","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","林德福","黃建賓","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","何欣純","葉元之","廖偉翔","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","張啓楷","吳宗憲","羅智強","洪孟楷","李柏毅","陳瑩","黃國昌","邱志偉","游顥","麥玉珍","林宜瑾","劉建國","王鴻薇","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00001"}}}