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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1411.84, \"end\": 1411.86, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1432.128, \"end\": 1432.248, \"score\": 0.511}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 1432.248, \"end\": 1432.268, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1432.268, \"end\": 1432.368, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1432.368, \"end\": 1432.388, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,029 --> 00:00:13,036\n主席是不是請我們這個何部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,592 --> 00:00:44,206\n市長您今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己不管是聽了一個早上你好像對你們自己都很滿意都覺得你們做得很好那我想再想請教一下你們從這個112年7月31到現在主持這個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台會議多達6次了你知道吧是\n\n3\n00:00:45,367 --> 00:01:14,908\n那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自旅行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向\n\n4\n00:01:15,348 --> 00:01:15,748\n第幾次了?\n\n5\n00:01:49,231 --> 00:02:08,099\n我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化只是其中一種而已\n\n6\n00:02:08,819 --> 00:02:34,529\n這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖試點穿第七個要真人客服\n\n7\n00:02:34,989 --> 00:02:59,243\n你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為你現在在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個\n\n8\n00:03:01,224 --> 00:03:21,032\n人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟啊深屬的程序正義啊樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面\n\n9\n00:03:26,075 --> 00:03:28,597\n請問你這個UberEats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼\n\n10\n00:03:42,748 --> 00:03:49,771\n那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要講幾句了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBEREAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FORPANDA你告訴我\n\n11\n00:04:12,102 --> 00:04:30,810\n你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關\n\n12\n00:04:34,079 --> 00:04:39,404\n委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關我現在問你他對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是僱傭關係你是這種外送人僱傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案\n\n13\n00:04:52,015 --> 00:04:55,439\n我跟委員報告所以你認為你不支持雇佣關係呢我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平式的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨佔了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去管理讓他們去支持\n\n14\n00:05:11,915 --> 00:05:38,687\n我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益\n\n15\n00:05:40,777 --> 00:05:40,817\n10億美元．\n\n16\n00:06:10,291 --> 00:06:15,314\n為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而UberEats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定\n\n17\n00:06:30,163 --> 00:06:58,780\n但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動\n\n18\n00:07:30,121 --> 00:07:49,858\n外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象\n\n19\n00:07:50,891 --> 00:08:04,384\n所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了\n\n20\n00:08:08,174 --> 00:08:27,622\n所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們都退回來了\n\n21\n00:08:29,332 --> 00:08:50,405\n退一步說一位外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要雇佣還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務\n\n22\n00:08:57,642 --> 00:09:12,990\n委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一向運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意樣態停權的樣態明確化等等\n\n23\n00:09:23,655 --> 00:09:32,221\n有,那個第三人責任險現在UberEats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦\n\n24\n00:09:40,046 --> 00:09:55,807\n我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員\n\n25\n00:09:57,589 --> 00:10:21,370\n就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為\n\n26\n00:10:22,671 --> 00:10:43,073\n但看起來好像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢\n\n27\n00:10:43,954 --> 00:10:46,878\n為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個實在的風險自備生產工具自付修車保溫箱各種設備成本\n\n28\n00:11:00,638 --> 00:11:23,095\n但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性\n\n29\n00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:38,166\n那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎\n\n30\n00:11:51,155 --> 00:12:07,348\n這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關\n\n31\n00:12:11,371 --> 00:12:15,876\n我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關\n\n32\n00:12:29,893 --> 00:12:31,093\n委員計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的\n\n33\n00:12:58,963 --> 00:13:09,046\n那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營也不歸你管的就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎\n\n34\n00:13:28,024 --> 00:13:31,305\n你是協調而不是他們定而已?他可以定到超出勞基法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出勞基法的範圍嗎?\n\n35\n00:13:49,173 --> 00:14:09,985\n我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟您解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看是彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員\n\n36\n00:14:14,326 --> 00:14:22,950\n因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已\n\n37\n00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:36,058\n西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份\n\n38\n00:14:51,152 --> 00:15:13,137\n因為格羅的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼\n\n39\n00:15:16,238 --> 00:15:36,449\n就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎\n\n40\n00:15:39,998 --> 00:16:05,018\n當然台灣有平台經濟搞不好平台經濟嗎西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式\n\n41\n00:16:05,678 --> 00:16:29,521\n而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督案控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權\n\n42\n00:16:30,842 --> 00:16:35,503\n他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說我時間到了\n\n43\n00:17:02,981 --> 00:17:30,858\n好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只有任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於食物的外送\n\n44\n00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:48,473\n還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在要問你的是你現在閃閃又多多\n\n45\n00:17:57,643 --> 00:18:26,018\n連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家介入確立\n\n46\n00:18:26,758 --> 00:18:49,834\n公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以UberEats還有這個FullPanda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎歐盟指令歐盟平台工作指令談什麼\n\n47\n00:18:58,274 --> 00:19:00,904\n你也不知道?阿摩師長知道嗎?師長知道嗎?\n\n48\n00:19:04,335 --> 00:19:12,137\n你們業務出版單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了\n\n49\n00:19:30,003 --> 00:19:42,675\n他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位\n\n50\n00:19:56,550 --> 00:20:05,254\n也不知道所以你在這裡就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以這種狀況裡面喔反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊你我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬\n\n51\n00:20:27,981 --> 00:20:55,753\n我當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定\n\n52\n00:20:57,153 --> 00:21:12,846\n則由平台業者負責舉政責任,除了推定僱傭關係以外,也規範了演算法管理,勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用,而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據。\n\n53\n00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:31,541\n也不可以去獲取人家的生活特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性\n\n54\n00:21:40,609 --> 00:21:53,816\n那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得專法還\n\n55\n00:21:58,777 --> 00:22:09,529\n需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定\n\n56\n00:22:12,199 --> 00:22:36,578\n委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支持不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我就在問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態\n\n57\n00:22:37,859 --> 00:22:38,139\n委員我要坦白講我作為\n\n58\n00:22:57,864 --> 00:22:58,685\n我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿\n\n59\n00:23:14,028 --> 00:23:14,408\n台灣的休業勞動平台經濟不是獨創的\n\n60\n00:23:28,439 --> 00:23:31,860\n包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻的分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的\n\n61\n00:23:52,128 --> 00:23:52,388\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11029\t13036\t主席是不是請我們這個何部長\n19592\t44206\t市長您今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己不管是聽了一個早上你好像對你們自己都很滿意都覺得你們做得很好那我想再想請教一下你們從這個112年7月31到現在主持這個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台會議多達6次了你知道吧是\n45367\t74908\t那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自旅行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向\n75348\t75748\t第幾次了?\n109231\t128099\t我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化只是其中一種而已\n128819\t154529\t這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖試點穿第七個要真人客服\n154989\t179243\t你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為你現在在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個\n181224\t201032\t人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟啊深屬的程序正義啊樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面\n206075\t208597\t請問你這個Uber Eats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼\n222748\t229771\t那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要講幾句了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBER EAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FOR PANDA你告訴我\n252102\t270810\t你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關\n274079\t279404\t委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關我現在問你他對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是僱傭關係你是這種外送人僱傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案\n292015\t295439\t我跟委員報告所以你認為你不支持雇佣關係呢我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平式的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨佔了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去管理讓他們去支持\n311915\t338687\t我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益\n340777\t340817\t10億美元．\n370291\t375314\t為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定\n390163\t418780\t但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動\n419701\t449701\t﹗\n450121\t469858\t外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象\n470891\t484384\t所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了\n488174\t507622\t所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們都退回來了\n509332\t530405\t退一步說一位外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要雇佣還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務\n537642\t552990\t委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一向運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意樣態停權的樣態明確化等等\n563655\t572221\t有,那個第三人責任險現在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦\n580046\t595807\t我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員\n597589\t621370\t就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為\n622671\t643073\t但看起來好像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢\n643954\t646878\t為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個實在的風險自備生產工具自付修車保溫箱各種設備成本\n660638\t683095\t但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性\n684036\t698166\t那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎\n711155\t727348\t這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關\n731371\t735876\t我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關\n749893\t751093\t委員 計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的\n778963\t789046\t那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營也不歸你管的就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎\n808024\t811305\t你是協調而不是他們定而已?他可以定到超出勞基法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出勞基法的範圍嗎?\n829173\t849985\t我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟您解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看是彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員\n854326\t862950\t因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已\n873996\t876058\t西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份\n891152\t913137\t因為格羅的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼\n916238\t936449\t就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎\n939998\t965018\t當然台灣有平台經濟 搞不好平台經濟嗎西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式\n965678\t989521\t而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督案控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權\n990842\t995503\t他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說我時間到了\n1022981\t1050858\t好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只有任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於食物的外送\n1053560\t1068473\t還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在要問你的是你現在閃閃又多多\n1077643\t1106018\t連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家介入確立\n1106758\t1129834\t公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以Uber Eats還有這個Full Panda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎歐盟指令歐盟平台工作指令談什麼\n1138274\t1140904\t你也不知道?阿摩師長知道嗎?師長知道嗎?\n1144335\t1152137\t你們業務出版單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了\n1170003\t1182675\t他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位\n1196550\t1205254\t也不知道所以你在這裡就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以這種狀況裡面喔反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊你我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬\n1227981\t1255753\t我當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定\n1257153\t1272846\t則由平台業者負責舉政責任,除了推定僱傭關係以外,也規範了演算法管理,勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用,而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據。\n1278530\t1291541\t也不可以去獲取人家的生活特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性\n1300609\t1313816\t那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得專法還\n1318777\t1329529\t需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定\n1332199\t1356578\t委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支持不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我就在問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態\n1357859\t1358139\t委員我要坦白講我作為\n1377864\t1378685\t我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿\n1394028\t1394408\t台灣的休業勞動平台經濟不是獨創的\n1408439\t1411860\t包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻的分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的\n1432128\t1432388\t謝謝林淑芬委員\n","txt":"主席是不是請我們這個何部長\n市長您今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己不管是聽了一個早上你好像對你們自己都很滿意都覺得你們做得很好那我想再想請教一下你們從這個112年7月31到現在主持這個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台會議多達6次了你知道吧是\n那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自旅行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向\n第幾次了?\n我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化只是其中一種而已\n這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖試點穿第七個要真人客服\n你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為你現在在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個\n人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟啊深屬的程序正義啊樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面\n請問你這個Uber Eats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼\n那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要講幾句了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBER EAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FOR PANDA你告訴我\n你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關\n委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關我現在問你他對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是僱傭關係你是這種外送人僱傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案\n我跟委員報告所以你認為你不支持雇佣關係呢我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平式的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨佔了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去管理讓他們去支持\n我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益\n10億美元．\n為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定\n但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動\n﹗\n外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象\n所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了\n所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們都退回來了\n退一步說一位外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要雇佣還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務\n委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一向運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意樣態停權的樣態明確化等等\n有,那個第三人責任險現在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦\n我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員\n就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為\n但看起來好像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢\n為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個實在的風險自備生產工具自付修車保溫箱各種設備成本\n但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性\n那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎\n這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關\n我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關\n委員 計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的\n那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營也不歸你管的就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎\n你是協調而不是他們定而已?他可以定到超出勞基法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出勞基法的範圍嗎?\n我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟您解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看是彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員\n因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已\n西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份\n因為格羅的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼\n就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎\n當然台灣有平台經濟 搞不好平台經濟嗎西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式\n而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督案控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權\n他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說我時間到了\n好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只有任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於食物的外送\n還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在要問你的是你現在閃閃又多多\n連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家介入確立\n公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以Uber Eats還有這個Full Panda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎歐盟指令歐盟平台工作指令談什麼\n你也不知道?阿摩師長知道嗎?師長知道嗎?\n你們業務出版單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了\n他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位\n也不知道所以你在這裡就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以這種狀況裡面喔反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊你我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬\n我當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定\n則由平台業者負責舉政責任,除了推定僱傭關係以外,也規範了演算法管理,勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用,而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據。\n也不可以去獲取人家的生活特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性\n那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得專法還\n需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定\n委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支持不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我就在問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態\n委員我要坦白講我作為\n我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿\n台灣的休業勞動平台經濟不是獨創的\n包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻的分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.029 --> 00:13.036\n主席是不是請我們這個何部長\n\n00:19.592 --> 00:44.206\n市長您今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己不管是聽了一個早上你好像對你們自己都很滿意都覺得你們做得很好那我想再想請教一下你們從這個112年7月31到現在主持這個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台會議多達6次了你知道吧是\n\n00:45.367 --> 01:14.908\n那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自旅行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向\n\n01:15.348 --> 01:15.748\n第幾次了?\n\n01:49.231 --> 02:08.099\n我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化只是其中一種而已\n\n02:08.819 --> 02:34.529\n這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖試點穿第七個要真人客服\n\n02:34.989 --> 02:59.243\n你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為你現在在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個\n\n03:01.224 --> 03:21.032\n人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟啊深屬的程序正義啊樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面\n\n03:26.075 --> 03:28.597\n請問你這個UberEats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼\n\n03:42.748 --> 03:49.771\n那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要講幾句了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBEREAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FORPANDA你告訴我\n\n04:12.102 --> 04:30.810\n你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關\n\n04:34.079 --> 04:39.404\n委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關我現在問你他對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是僱傭關係你是這種外送人僱傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案\n\n04:52.015 --> 04:55.439\n我跟委員報告所以你認為你不支持雇佣關係呢我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平式的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨佔了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去管理讓他們去支持\n\n05:11.915 --> 05:38.687\n我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益\n\n05:40.777 --> 05:40.817\n10億美元．\n\n06:10.291 --> 06:15.314\n為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而UberEats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定\n\n06:30.163 --> 06:58.780\n但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動\n\n07:30.121 --> 07:49.858\n外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象\n\n07:50.891 --> 08:04.384\n所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了\n\n08:08.174 --> 08:27.622\n所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們都退回來了\n\n08:29.332 --> 08:50.405\n退一步說一位外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要雇佣還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務\n\n08:57.642 --> 09:12.990\n委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一向運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意樣態停權的樣態明確化等等\n\n09:23.655 --> 09:32.221\n有,那個第三人責任險現在UberEats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦\n\n09:40.046 --> 09:55.807\n我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員\n\n09:57.589 --> 10:21.370\n就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為\n\n10:22.671 --> 10:43.073\n但看起來好像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢\n\n10:43.954 --> 10:46.878\n為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個實在的風險自備生產工具自付修車保溫箱各種設備成本\n\n11:00.638 --> 11:23.095\n但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性\n\n11:24.036 --> 11:38.166\n那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎\n\n11:51.155 --> 12:07.348\n這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關\n\n12:11.371 --> 12:15.876\n我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關\n\n12:29.893 --> 12:31.093\n委員計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的\n\n12:58.963 --> 13:09.046\n那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營也不歸你管的就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎\n\n13:28.024 --> 13:31.305\n你是協調而不是他們定而已?他可以定到超出勞基法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出勞基法的範圍嗎?\n\n13:49.173 --> 14:09.985\n我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟您解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看是彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員\n\n14:14.326 --> 14:22.950\n因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已\n\n14:33.996 --> 14:36.058\n西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份\n\n14:51.152 --> 15:13.137\n因為格羅的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼\n\n15:16.238 --> 15:36.449\n就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎\n\n15:39.998 --> 16:05.018\n當然台灣有平台經濟搞不好平台經濟嗎西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式\n\n16:05.678 --> 16:29.521\n而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督案控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權\n\n16:30.842 --> 16:35.503\n他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說我時間到了\n\n17:02.981 --> 17:30.858\n好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只有任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於食物的外送\n\n17:33.560 --> 17:48.473\n還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在要問你的是你現在閃閃又多多\n\n17:57.643 --> 18:26.018\n連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家介入確立\n\n18:26.758 --> 18:49.834\n公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以UberEats還有這個FullPanda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎歐盟指令歐盟平台工作指令談什麼\n\n18:58.274 --> 19:00.904\n你也不知道?阿摩師長知道嗎?師長知道嗎?\n\n19:04.335 --> 19:12.137\n你們業務出版單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了\n\n19:30.003 --> 19:42.675\n他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位\n\n19:56.550 --> 20:05.254\n也不知道所以你在這裡就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以這種狀況裡面喔反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊你我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬\n\n20:27.981 --> 20:55.753\n我當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定\n\n20:57.153 --> 21:12.846\n則由平台業者負責舉政責任,除了推定僱傭關係以外,也規範了演算法管理,勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用,而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據。\n\n21:18.530 --> 21:31.541\n也不可以去獲取人家的生活特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性\n\n21:40.609 --> 21:53.816\n那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得專法還\n\n21:58.777 --> 22:09.529\n需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定\n\n22:12.199 --> 22:36.578\n委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支持不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我就在問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態\n\n22:37.859 --> 22:38.139\n委員我要坦白講我作為\n\n22:57.864 --> 22:58.685\n我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿\n\n23:14.028 --> 23:14.408\n台灣的休業勞動平台經濟不是獨創的\n\n23:28.439 --> 23:31.860\n包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻的分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的\n\n23:52.128 --> 23:52.388\n謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.029,"end":13.036,"text":"主席是不是請我們這個何部長"},{"start":19.592,"end":44.206,"text":"市長您今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己不管是聽了一個早上你好像對你們自己都很滿意都覺得你們做得很好那我想再想請教一下你們從這個112年7月31到現在主持這個外送工會及外送平台業者對話平台會議多達6次了你知道吧是"},{"start":45.367,"end":74.908,"text":"那過去勞動部這個認定外送員需親自旅行外送接受平台指揮監督契單懲處的雙方不對等外送員這個分工合作等四項事實認定說這個外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係但是上有政策下有對策所以這些平台業者除了提出這個行政訴訟以外也大改了跟外送員的合約讓他更符合這個承攬制度的方向"},{"start":75.348,"end":75.748,"text":"第幾次了?"},{"start":109.231,"end":128.099,"text":"我們最新的進度其實就是跟交通部合作把運費透明化修進這一個汽車運輸業管理規則裡面那其實是外送工會他們我們跟外送工會一起外送工會有幾個訴求你現在跟我講的是這個資訊透明化只是其中一種而已"},{"start":128.819,"end":154.529,"text":"這個就是他主要的訴求喔外送專法他們在外送專法上他們有七大訴求所以他們在協談的時候其實有他們的訴求我就不知道說你是說他們主要訴求是什麼我唸給你們聽第一個停權要透明要公開透明的停權機制第二個報酬要有保障第三個要定型化契約第四個全時段保險第五個抽成要有上限第六個要地圖試點穿第七個要真人客服"},{"start":154.989,"end":179.243,"text":"你的剛剛講的這個資訊透明化是第幾點是他們主要訴求我都不知道你現在在講都講得對自己很不安利的你說這他們的主要訴求但是就我們所了解的不只是這樣子對可是委員因為我們都一樣一樣來啦他是抱著頭你剛才說這是你的主要我就聽不下去了因為你現在在動嘴是呼嚨立委一樣我現在要跟你講就是說這個"},{"start":181.224,"end":201.032,"text":"人家的這個主要訴求包括這個第三方的救濟啊深屬的程序正義啊樣態停權的樣態明確化處理的效力等等啊這個都也不在你講的透明化的資訊透明化裡面那你們召集召開了這麼多的會議裡面我想請教你你知道現在台灣的像外送平台裡面"},{"start":206.075,"end":208.597,"text":"請問你這個Uber Eats為什麼要變購Foodpanda為什麼要把一個年營業額達到一兩百億的營業額的這個大公司要被一個小公司給合併掉為什麼"},{"start":222.748,"end":229.771,"text":"那當然是他們有他們的市場他們的市場你都要講幾句了就一語待過這個很重要他幾乎要變成壟斷獨佔市場這個對外送員的平台和外送員的權益影響很大而你作為一個勞動部長你什麼都不知道為什麼UBER EAT他有能力要為什麼有動機要去併購現在台灣第一大年營業額200億的FOR PANDA你告訴我"},{"start":252.102,"end":270.81,"text":"你連這個都沒掌握都不了解你怎麼樣可以去了解這個脈絡說他們他們到底是發生什麼事會對衛生員的權益的影響是什麼你在這裡呼嚨立委其他立委打打馬呼嚴就這樣過去了我沒有辦法讓你這樣子請你回答我作為一個部長業務的主管機關"},{"start":274.079,"end":279.404,"text":"委員我不是外送平台的業務主管機關我現在問你他對外送人權益到目前為止還是很多都是僱傭關係你是這種外送人僱傭關係的業務主管機關還沒有定案"},{"start":292.015,"end":295.439,"text":"我跟委員報告所以你認為你不支持雇佣關係呢我知道這公平會必須基於市場公平式的考慮因為他要達到壟斷案獨佔了所以他也必須要達到讓公平會去管理讓他們去支持"},{"start":311.915,"end":338.687,"text":"我現在問你是你是外送員而現在外送員在勞動部或者是在法院裡面判決幾乎大多數認定是僱傭關係而你是這麼多萬的外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握你還在講說我不是平台的主管機關誰鳥你平台是什麼我在乎的是外送員權益"},{"start":340.777,"end":340.817,"text":"10億美元．"},{"start":370.291,"end":375.314,"text":"為什麼他要這樣子做?因為他的德國母公司虧損而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司他們剛好有賺錢為什麼會這樣子?為什麼會這樣子?我知道你當然很難去推定"},{"start":390.163,"end":418.78,"text":"但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避雇佣承攬或者是有其他界定工作者性質的關係然後平台經濟的樣態很多不是只有送食物一種包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作經由平台去仲介勞動力任務可能是載客代價可能是送餐清潔維修運送服務等很多物理性的勞動"},{"start":419.701,"end":449.701,"text":"﹗"},{"start":450.121,"end":469.858,"text":"外送服務或是外送平台所提供的這些勞務提供者跟他的服務服務的接受者他們會有實體接觸所以在因為你這個服務的外送者提供者跟這個服務的接受者會接觸就會影響到平台的品牌形象"},{"start":470.891,"end":484.384,"text":"所以會影響到他們的生意所以平台當然要介入要有規範要有控制這一些服務的提供者他要確保平台的形象和他優質的服務而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟他已經要挑戰了這個法律的框架了"},{"start":488.174,"end":507.622,"text":"所以勞動部在講說外送員專法其實就這一個專法你立不出來就算了一個外送員專法的法律框架可能還不足以來面對這麼新型態的這個平台經濟所以退一步我們都退回來了"},{"start":509.332,"end":530.405,"text":"退一步說一位外送員備受關注要優先處理那你能不能有另一種思維你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身份的認定而不要在這裡打劫了如果你要雇佣還是承攬我們不要打劫在這裡的話那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔這些服務的提供者要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務"},{"start":537.642,"end":552.99,"text":"委員這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作訂運費透明化你不要跟我講一向運費透明化啦人家的訴求最重點都也不是在這裡我剛剛念過了建立第三方救濟申訴的程序誠意樣態停權的樣態明確化等等"},{"start":563.655,"end":572.221,"text":"有,那個第三人責任險現在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了,這也是我們...你在這裡喔,我們問東你答西啦,然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦"},{"start":580.046,"end":595.807,"text":"我現在告訴你說虛假承攬在外送超級外送員這一本書裡面直接指出說這個外送平台他如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗的外衣然後卻透過薪資薪酬獎勵的制度在控制外送員"},{"start":597.589,"end":621.37,"text":"就是說在這種狀況裡面平台已經不會再要求你要穿他的制服啦保護箱的外觀要一樣啦也不會禁止你不可以雙載啦那他在契約裡面好像盡量的把那個僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉但是呢他們改由報酬制度去展所展開的這個取單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為"},{"start":622.671,"end":643.073,"text":"但看起來好像這個彈性接單好像是承攬制但是這是一種假的虛假的承攬因為他是為了績效獎勵然後報酬制度去去擬接單率獎金制來控制你的行為然後呢"},{"start":643.954,"end":646.878,"text":"為了績效獎勵你就要獨自去承擔各種風險然後為平台業者賣命的去賣命那他變成這些服務的提供者必須要自付這一個實在的風險自備生產工具自付修車保溫箱各種設備成本"},{"start":660.638,"end":683.095,"text":"但是呢我現在跟你講的是歐洲歐盟各國法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是雇佣拒絕認定他們不是雇佣他們現在歐洲歐盟他們轉而去關注的是平台工作者這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性"},{"start":684.036,"end":698.166,"text":"那歐盟是以推定他們還是繼續要推定僱傭來解決虛假承攬你到底你們現在的方向還要折衷在哪裡你可以告訴我們嗎你就僱傭承攬這兩件事我們還在跟交通部以及速發部都還在討論當中你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候有找交通部討論嗎"},{"start":711.155,"end":727.348,"text":"這個到底是不是雇用關係是你勞動部的主管業務還需要跟人家討論嗎因為我們對這一個所謂平台他之間跟他的平台外送員之間是雇用關係這勞動部是可以認我們是這麼認定是沒有錯啦可是這並不代表我就是他的主管機關"},{"start":731.371,"end":735.876,"text":"我們現在因為外送平台是一個外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇我討論的是這些服務的提供者接受外送平台接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人他的權益是你是主管機關"},{"start":749.893,"end":751.093,"text":"委員 計程車司機的勞動權益我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的"},{"start":778.963,"end":789.046,"text":"那都定在交通部那邊欸因為計程車司機他也不歸我管欸他是他的那這就是為什麼當時汽車運營也不歸你管的就像這個受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管嗎受雇的遊覽車司機不歸你管你要去找交通部討論說遊覽車司機的勞動權益他適用勞基法哪一條請交通部給我們指導一下你會這樣子去嗎"},{"start":808.024,"end":811.305,"text":"你是協調而不是他們定而已?他可以定到超出勞基法的這個範圍嗎?他可以定到超出勞基法的範圍嗎?"},{"start":829.173,"end":849.985,"text":"我們兩部會要協作因為委員我要跟您解釋我現在不要跟你講我現在跟你講說事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看看是彈性自主的工作事實上透過系統控制平台的這個這種東西這個關係其實是虛假承攬而我在問你的是你的承攬跟你的雇傭你到底要走哪個方向承攬跟雇傭委員"},{"start":854.326,"end":862.95,"text":"因為這個就是這是一個新興的產業他的這樣子的新興的產業人家國外沒有這種產業嗎人家國外都沒有這種產業沒有外送員沒有平台經濟嗎就平台立場他認為他是一個資訊服務的提供者而已"},{"start":873.996,"end":876.058,"text":"西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25判決他認定這個Global的平台工作者具有勞工身份"},{"start":891.152,"end":913.137,"text":"因為格羅的平台建立一套評級等級的評級系統如果你這個外送員超過三個月沒有階段會被降級而且跟建立排名系統那根據客戶的評價執行最近訂單的效率以及如何在需求最大期間執行服務三項給予評分最高分的外送員享有優先的訂單優先權這意思是什麼"},{"start":916.238,"end":936.449,"text":"就是說外國西班牙的平台就是說你服務態度要好你外送的速度要很快你尖峰的時刻一定要接單你不能懶惰不接單想接就接不接就不接不可以你如果不接的話你也可以但你會被降級你以後的單子不會優先派給你請問台灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":939.998,"end":965.018,"text":"當然台灣有平台經濟 搞不好平台經濟嗎西班牙法院就不這麼認為他認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務而不是為了外送員個人不代表外送員個人都代表這個品牌外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式"},{"start":965.678,"end":989.521,"text":"而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車然後你評人家等級你評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督案控制換言之平台單方決定的工作組織模式還有服務與的定價支付方式和外送員報酬都是由平台單方決定的所以它逐漸高度指揮權"},{"start":990.842,"end":995.503,"text":"他們人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了他們還修了勞基法欸你不要看主席啦你當時喔不中你常常對立法院下指導旗下慣了你連對我們的周圍連他的議程的定定你都要指揮然後現在CyberShare和主席看說我時間到了"},{"start":1022.981,"end":1050.858,"text":"好沒關係我再問西班牙連在這種狀況裡面他講說他們還修了勞基法他們增訂第23條只有任何商品類型的外送服務有僱主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式直接間接或暗示的行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況便推定外送員具有勞工身份所以在這種規定裡面不僅適用於食物的外送"},{"start":1053.56,"end":1068.473,"text":"還擴大到使用演算法的進行管理營運的平台甚至於成立專家委員會左手進行人工智慧和演算法在僱傭關係中的良好應用的這個相關的研究和評估人家是這樣做的現在要問你的是你現在閃閃又多多"},{"start":1077.643,"end":1106.018,"text":"連老大只想規避一下就想走德國在2020年也發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點他指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權利關係平台不僅是仲介工作一方面宣稱承攬關係另一方面又單方的定立工作規則和條件且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢所以德國說更需要國家介入確立"},{"start":1106.758,"end":1129.834,"text":"公正公平的勞動條件這是德國2020年到2024年你今天還在告訴我說人家以Uber Eats還有這個Full Panda為例就走向壟斷獨佔了你現在跟我們講說我們什麼資訊透明要去跟交通部商量這是台灣政府的責任的態度嗎歐盟指令歐盟平台工作指令談什麼"},{"start":1138.274,"end":1140.904,"text":"你也不知道?阿摩師長知道嗎?師長知道嗎?"},{"start":1144.335,"end":1152.137,"text":"你們業務出版單位連歐盟指令指令在今年通過了今年4月才剛通過550歐盟議會554票贊成56票反對24票棄權通過了歐盟平台工作者指令而這個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了"},{"start":1170.003,"end":1182.675,"text":"他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件個人資料保護促進平台工作者演算法的管理的透明度公平性人工監督和安全性所以他們有幾個我現在你這樣我覺得很離譜業務單位也不知道部長也不知道主管機關的業務單位"},{"start":1196.55,"end":1205.254,"text":"也不知道所以你在這裡就是不在乎嘛外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷案獨佔的你還是不在乎所以這種狀況裡面喔反對那個併購案我們已經講過很多遍我沒有在問你反不反對併購案我在問你是反不反對假承攬虛假承攬併購不是你的業務啊你我在問你你反不反對虛假承攬"},{"start":1227.981,"end":1255.753,"text":"我當然是反對的啊所以我們才要去跟交通部那你要不要更積極的作為你需不需要更積極的作為歐盟的指令第5條規範根據成人國現行的國家法律集體協議或管理當已經有事實的控制和指導時數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定"},{"start":1257.153,"end":1272.846,"text":"則由平台業者負責舉政責任,除了推定僱傭關係以外,也規範了演算法管理,勞動者充分的瞭解招聘工作條件收入自動監測和決策的使用,而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的這些類型的個人數據。"},{"start":1278.53,"end":1291.541,"text":"也不可以去獲取人家的生活特徵或心理狀態而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估人家是走到這樣子而我國我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟然後確立雇傭關係法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性"},{"start":1300.609,"end":1313.816,"text":"那如果你反對承攬關係那你認為支持這個推定雇傭那你這個推定雇傭你應該要入法要支持專法保障不是嗎我覺得專法還"},{"start":1318.777,"end":1329.529,"text":"需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論你反對至少你反對承攬吧我不贊成啊你反對承攬那你支不支持僱傭推定"},{"start":1332.199,"end":1356.578,"text":"委員就是我們反對你反對陳蘭但是那她是什麼狀態你不知道因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭委員你到底支持不支持推定僱傭我們是不是這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦對今天不是要業務討論嗎這今天不是你業務報告嗎我就在問你的態度啊你今天在這裡不敢講出來對立委不敢對國會不敢表態"},{"start":1357.859,"end":1358.139,"text":"委員我要坦白講我作為"},{"start":1377.864,"end":1378.685,"text":"我們本來就認定他是雇佣關係阿"},{"start":1394.028,"end":1394.408,"text":"台灣的休業勞動平台經濟不是獨創的"},{"start":1408.439,"end":1411.86,"text":"包括歐洲包括台灣的司法判決還有這個都已經非常的多然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身份細緻的分析到勞動從屬的內涵多數的判決都是認定他們是僱傭而不是承攬所以台灣國內的法院也都是這樣子法治化的保障這一個是跑不掉的"},{"start":1432.128,"end":1432.388,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[26],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:59:12 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11:23:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":155550,"gazette":{"lineno":757,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時59分）主席，是不是請何部長？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你今天的答詢裡面對自己部裡面的所有業務都高度的肯定自己，我聽了一個早上，你好像對你們自己都很滿意，都覺得你們做得很好。我想請教一下，你們從112年7月31日到現在主持外送工會及外送平臺業者對話平臺會議多達6次了，你知道吧？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員淑芬：過去勞動部認定外送員須親自履行外送、接受平台指揮監督、棄單懲處的雙方不對等、外送員分工合作等四項事實，認定外送跟平台之間是僱傭關係，但是上有政策、下有對策，所以這些平台業者除了提出行政訴訟以外，也大改了跟外送員的合約，讓它更符合承攬制度的方向和精神，就為了這些外送人員的權益，從職災給付的權益、申訴的機制、平台系統介面的中文化、雙向評鑑制度、發派訂單等，以及製餐順序獎勵和扣薪制度等等，你們最近一次是什麼時候舉行的？"],["何部長佩珊：8月。"],["林委員淑芬：8月？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員淑芬：第幾次了？"],["何部長佩珊：開第八次的平台會議。"],["林委員淑芬：好。那你們現在的方向是會怎麼樣進行？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們最新的進度，其實就是跟交通部合作，把運費透明化，修進汽車運輸業管理規則裡面，那其實是外送工會跟我們一起……"],["林委員淑芬：外送公會有幾個訴求，你現在跟我講的資訊透明化，只是其中一種而已。"],["何部長佩珊：這個就是他們主要的訴求，就是……"],["林委員淑芬：在外送專法上，他們有七大訴求，所以他們在協談的時候，其實有他們的訴求，我就不知道你說他們的主要訴求是什麼。我唸給你們聽：第一個，停權要透明，要公開透明的停權機制。第二個，報酬要有保障；第三個，要定型化契約；第四個，全時段保險；第五個，抽成要有上限；第六個，要地圖式點餐；第七個，要真人客服。你剛剛講的資訊透明化，第幾點是他們的主要訴求？我就不知道。你現在這樣說，都說得好像對自己很滿意，你說這是他們的主要訴求，但是就我們所瞭解的，不只是這樣子。"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是委員，因為我們當然一樣一樣來啦，他是報酬……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你剛才說這是他們的主要訴求，我就聽不下去了，因為現在你就當作是唬弄立委一樣，我現在要跟你講，人家的主要訴求，包括第三方的救濟、申訴的程序正義、停權的樣態明確化、處理的效率等等，這些都也不在你講的資訊透明化裡面，那你們召開了這麼多的會議裡面，我想請教你，你知道現在臺灣的外送平台裡面，請問你，Uber Eats為什麼要併購foodpanda？為什麼一個年營業額達到一、兩百億的營業額的大公司要被一個小公司合併？為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：那當然是他們有他們的市場。"],["林委員淑芬：他們的市場？你說這句話就一語帶過喔？這個很重要，它幾乎要變成壟斷獨占市場，這個對外送平台和外送員的權益影響很大，而你做為一個勞動部長，你什麼都不知道！Uber Eats有能力，為什麼有動機要去併購現在臺灣第一大，年營業額兩百億的footpanda？你告訴我。你連這個都沒掌握，都不瞭解，你怎麼樣可以去瞭解這個脈絡，知道他們到底是發生什麼事？對外送員的權益的影響是什麼？你在這裡唬弄立委，跟其他立委打馬虎眼，就這樣過去了，我沒有辦法讓你這樣子。請你回答我，做為一個部長，業務的主管機關。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我不是外送平台的業務主管機關。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問的是……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，那個合併案是公平會……"],["林委員淑芬：對外送員權益，到目前為止，還是有很多都是僱傭關係，你是這種外送員僱傭關係的業務主管機關。"],["何部長佩珊：不不不，委員，還沒有定案，我跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你認為你不支持僱傭關係？"],["何部長佩珊：這兩個平台的合併案是向公平會送案的。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，這……"],["何部長佩珊：公平會必須基於市場……"],["林委員淑芬：因為它要達到壟斷和獨占，所以它也必須要讓公平會去管理，讓他們去支持。我現在的問題是，現在外送員在和平台的關係，在勞動部或法院的判決，幾乎大多數人認定是僱傭關係，而你是這麼多萬名外送員的僱傭關係的主管機關，你對於這樣的狀況沒有掌握，你還可以講說：「我不是平台的主管機關。」誰鳥你平台是什麼？　我在乎的是外送員權益。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們對外送員的權益，我們都是第一線在處理……"],["林委員淑芬：你怎麼會不知道？那我問你，我問你他們為什麼這樣子？我問你啦，foodpanda的母公司是誰？你也不知道。foodpanda的母公司是德國公司，他們要賣幾億元？合併要用幾億元賣掉？你不知道。"],["何部長佩珊：這個是公平會要去處理。"],["林委員淑芬：好，沒關係。10億美元。為什麼它要這樣子做？因為它的德國母公司虧損，而Uber Eats的母公司是美國公司，他們剛好有賺錢。為什麼會這樣子？為什麼會這樣子？我知道你當然很難去推定，但是外送員權益的專法是不是可以迴避僱傭、承攬或是其他界定工作者性質的關係？然後平台經濟的樣態很多，不是只有送食物一種，包括以外送員類型的在地平台工作，經由平台去仲介勞動力，任務可能是載客、代駕，可能是送餐、清潔、維修、運送服務等，很多物理性的勞動，都是在這個平台經濟裡面，人家在輸送，所以你知道未來這種平台經濟服務外送裡面，多少從業人員，影響多少人，你怎麼可以這麼掉以輕心，用隨便輕忽的態度來面對呢？你在立法院這裡，就這樣子面對委員的質詢，你要說你很認真，我是有一點問號啦。那我現在講說，這些外送服務或外送平台所提供的勞務提供者跟服務的接受者，他們會有實體接觸，因為這個服務的外送者、提供者跟這個服務的接受者有接觸，會影響到平台的品牌形象，所以會影響到他們的生意，所以平台當然要介入，要有規範、要控制這一些服務的提供者，要確保平台的形象，包含優質的服務，而面對這樣一個新型態的平台經濟，它已經要挑戰這個法律的框架了，所以勞動部在講外送員專法，其實這一個專法你立不出來就算了，一個外送員專法的法律框架，可能還不足以面對這麼新型態的平台經濟，所以我們就退回來，退一步說，因為外送員備受關注，要優先處理，那你能不能有另外一種思維？你要跳脫平台經濟勞工身分的認定，而不要在這裡打結了，如果你要界定是僱傭還是承攬，我們不要打結在這裡，那你要不要直接處理平台業者該負擔的，對這些服務的提供者，要有什麼樣的保護責任和義務？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這就是為什麼我們要去跟交通部合作，定運費透明化，讓它的……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要跟我講運費透明化啦！人家的訴求最重點也都不是在這裡，我剛剛唸過了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我再跟您報告，保險的部分，我們職安署……"],["林委員淑芬：建立第三方救濟申訴的程序，停權的樣態明確化等等。"],["何部長佩珊：有。那個第三人責任險，現在Uber Eats跟foodpanda都已經要替外送員保了，這也是我們職安署做出來的結果。"],["林委員淑芬：你在這裡，我們問東你答西啦，然後答非所問來拖延我們的時間啦。我現在告訴你說，虛假承攬，在「超級外送員」這一本書裡面，直接指出外送平台如何編織了一個承攬制的華麗外衣，然後透過薪資、薪酬獎勵的制度，控制外送員。就是說，在這種狀況裡面，平台已經不會再要求要穿它的制服、保溫箱的外觀要一樣，也不會禁止雙載，在契約裡面好像儘量把僱傭指揮權的地方拿掉，但是改由報酬制度去展開取單率獎金制，來控制外送員的行為，看起來好像是彈性接單，好像是承攬制，但是這是一種虛假的承攬，因為是用績效獎勵、報酬制度、接單率獎金制來控制外送員的行為，然後為了績效獎勵，就要獨自去承擔各種風險，然後為平台業者賣命，那他們變成這些服務的提供者，必須要自負職災的風險，自備生財工具，自付修車、保溫箱各種設備成本，但是我現在要跟你講的是，歐盟各國的法院都拒絕用這樣的方式來認定他們不是僱傭，拒絕認定他們不是僱傭，現在歐盟轉而去關注的是平台工作者，這些服務的提供者缺乏真正的獨立性，歐盟還是要繼續推定是僱傭關係來解決虛假承攬。到底你們現在的方向著重在哪裡？你可以告訴我們嗎？就僱傭和承攬這兩件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：這個議題我們跟交通部及數發部都還在討論當中。"],["林委員淑芬：你當時認定是僱傭關係的時候，有找交通部討論嗎？這個到底是不是僱傭關係？是你勞動部的主管業務，還需要跟人家討論嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，平台跟外送員之間是僱傭關係，這個我們勞動部是可以這麼認定，是沒有錯啦，可是這並不代表我們就是他的主管機關，現在因為外送平台是一個……"],["林委員淑芬：外送平台的主管機關不在我們討論範疇，我討論的是這些服務的提供者，接受外送平台指揮監督的這一些人，他們的權益是你們管的，你們是主管機關。"],["何部長佩珊：他們的權益，我絕對會站在第一線關心。"],["林委員淑芬：你今天會去跟受僱的計程車司機說：「你的勞動權益，我要去找交通部討論。」你會這樣子嗎？你會去跟其他的部門討論一下說：「欸！來討論一下，這個受僱的計程車司機，他的勞動權益，我們要怎麼定？」你需要這樣子嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，計程車司機的勞動權益，我確實是要跟交通部一起討論的，那都定在交通部那邊，因為計程車司機也不歸我管，這就是為什麼當時汽車運輸業管理規則……"],["林委員淑芬：我說的是受僱。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["林委員淑芬：就像受僱的遊覽車司機，不歸你管嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然他們的勞動型態……"],["林委員淑芬：受僱的遊覽車司機不歸你管，你要去找交通部討論說：「遊覽車司機的勞動權益適用勞基法哪一條？請交通部給我們指導一下。」你會這樣子去嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：遊覽車司機的工時規定，也都定在交通部那邊，他能不能輪班，也都是交通部那邊在定的。"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你……"],["何部長佩珊：不過委員，這是兩部會要協調的。"],["林委員淑芬：你們是協調，而不是他們定而已，他們可以定到超出勞基法的範疇嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：就是我們兩個部會協調……"],["林委員淑芬：他們可以定到超出勞基法的範疇嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們兩部會要協作，因為委員我要跟你解釋……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不要跟你講，我現在跟你講說，事實上我們從歐盟的例子來看，看是彈性自主的工作，事實上就是透過系統控制平台的這種東西，這個關係其實是虛假承攬，而我在問你的是：承攬跟僱傭，你到底要走哪個方向？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這是一個新興的產業，它這樣子的……"],["林委員淑芬：新興的產業？人家國外沒有這種產業嗎？國外都沒有這一種產業，沒有外送員，沒有平台經濟嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：就平台立場，他們認為他們是一個資訊服務的提供者而已。"],["林委員淑芬：外國難道沒有這種經驗？你們現在在這裡一張嘴亂說，然後虛與委蛇，對立委這樣子問東答西的，西班牙最高法院在2020年的9月25日判決，認定Glovo這個平台的工作者具有勞工身分，因為Glovo的平台建立一套評級系統，如果外送員超過三個月沒有接單會被降級，而且建立排名系統，根據客戶的評價、執行最近訂單的效率及如何在需求最大期間執行服務這三項，給予評分，最高分的外送員，享有優先的訂單優先權，這個意思是什麼？就是說，在這個西班牙的平台，服務態度要好，外送的速度要很快，尖峰的時刻一定要接單，不能懶惰不接單，想接就接，不接就不接，不可以。如果不接的話也可以，但會被降級，以後的單子不會優先派給你。請問，臺灣的平台業者不也是這個樣子嗎？臺灣有平台經濟，外國沒有平台經濟嗎？","西班牙法院就不這麼認為，它認為外送員就算為不同的平台從事工作時，也代表不同品牌在市場上提供服務，而不是為了外送員個人，不代表外送員個人，都代表這個品牌，外送員所依賴的生產工具是數位平台的應用程式，而不是外送員自己的手機和摩托車，然後評定等級和評分的系統是平台對外送員的某種監督和控制。換言之，平台單方決定的工作組織模式，還有服務的定價、支付方式和外送員報酬，都是由平台單方決定的，所以足見它的高度指揮權。人家西班牙2020年就這樣見解了，他們還修了勞基法耶！","你不要看主席啦。部長，你常常對立法院下指導棋下慣了，你對我們的召委，連他的議程的訂定，你都要指揮，到現在還使眼色給主席看，暗示我的發言時間到了。好，沒關係，我再問。在這種狀況裡面，西班牙還修了勞基法，增訂第二十三條，只要任何商品類型的外送服務，有雇主透過數位平台演算法管理的方式，直接、間接或暗示地行使其組織指示和控制能力的狀況，便推定外送員具有勞工身分。所以在這種規定裡面，不僅適用於食物的外送平台，還擴大到使用演算法進行管理營運的平台，甚至於成立專家委員會，著手進行人工智慧和演算法，在僱傭關係中良好應用的相關研究和評估。人家是這麼做的。","現在要問你的是，你現在閃閃又躲躲，然後只想規避一下就走，德國在2020年發布了平台經濟下的公平工作要點，指出平台跟工作者處於不對等的權力關係，平台不僅是仲介工作，一方面宣稱承攬關係，另一方面又單方訂立工作規則和條件，且平台有走向壟斷和主導的發展趨勢，所以德國說更需要國家介入，確立公正、公平的勞動條件，這是德國2020年的情形。到了2024年，你今天還在告訴我說，以Uber Eats和foodpanda為例，就要走向壟斷獨占了，你現在還跟我們講什麼資訊透明，講說要去跟交通部商量，這是臺灣政府的責任和態度嗎？","歐盟平台工作指令談什麼，你也不知道。不然司長你知道嗎？署長知道嗎？你們業務主管單位連歐盟指令都不知道，指令在今年通過了，今年4月才剛通過，在歐盟議會，554票贊成，56票反對，24票棄權，通過了歐盟平台工作者指令，而這一個指令事實上在2021年就提出來了，他們的目的是要改善平台工作者的勞動條件、個人資料保護，促進平台工作者演算法管理的透明度、公平性、人工監督和安全性，現在你這樣，我覺得很離譜，業務單位也不知道，部長也不知道，主管機關的業務單位也不知道，所以你們在這裡就是不在乎嘛。外送員的權益面臨到市場進入壟斷和獨占，你還是不在乎。所以在這種狀況裡面……"],["何部長佩珊：我們反對那個併購案，我們已經講過很多遍了。"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有在問你反不反對併購案，我在問你反不反對虛假承攬。併購不是你的業務，我在問你，你反不反對虛假承攬？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然是反對的啊，所以我們才要去跟交通部合作，訂定運費透明化的準則……"],["林委員淑芬：那你要不要更積極的作為？你需不需要更積極的作為？歐盟的指令第五條規範，根據成員國現行的國家法律、集體協議或慣例，當已經有適時的控制和指導時，數位勞動平台跟平台工作者之間的合約，應在法律上被推定為僱傭關係，如果平台業者試圖反駁法律推定，則由平台業者負責舉證責任。除了推定僱傭關係以外，也規範了演算法管理，勞動者充分瞭解招聘工作條件、收入、自動監測和決策的使用，而且要禁止使用自動監測和決策系統處理平台勞工的個人數據，也不可以去獲取人家的生物特徵或心理狀態，而且自動化決策還必須有人工監督和評估。人家是走到這樣子，而我國的個別訴訟都透過個別去法院訴訟，然後確立僱傭關係，法院的判決也觀察到了這個平台勞動經濟者的從屬性。如果你反對承攬關係，你支持推定僱傭，那這個推定僱傭應該要入法，要支持專法保障，不是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我就是說，專法還需要很多部會的跨部會共同討論。"],["林委員淑芬：至少你反對承攬吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我不贊成啊。"],["林委員淑芬：你反對承攬，那你支不支持僱傭推定？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，就算我們反對……"],["林委員淑芬：你反對承攬，但那是什麼狀態，你不知道，因為你不敢說你支持推定僱傭，你到底支不支持推定僱傭？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個應該是專法討論的範疇啦。"],["林委員淑芬：現在不就是業務討論？今天不是你的業務報告嗎？我就在問你的態度啊。你今天在這裡不敢講出來，對立委不敢、對國會不敢表態。"],["何部長佩珊：就是專法……"],["林委員淑芬：我當然知道是專法的範疇，專法你拿不出來啦。"],["何部長佩珊：專法的部分，行政院現在在跨部會討論中。"],["林委員淑芬：人家是勞動部定好了，才送到行政院去討論，你不要在這裡騙三歲小孩。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要坦白講，我做為……"],["林委員淑芬：我也要坦白講，你做為勞雇關係的主管機關，請問你敢不敢支持，敢不敢在這裡表態你支持推定僱傭的關係？"],["何部長佩珊：我們本來就認定是僱傭關係啊！3年前就認定了，不是嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：人家現在合約都已經改了，樣態也改了。"],["何部長佩珊：對啊。我們本來就認定，可是你看……"],["林委員淑芬：你認定個頭啦！你認定。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們認定了也沒有用。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣的數位勞動平台經濟不是獨創的。"],["何部長佩珊：因為我們認定也沒有用啊，因為我們管不了平台。"],["林委員淑芬：現在包括歐洲，包括臺灣的司法判決，都已經非常的多，然後要處理平台工作者的勞工身分，細緻分析到勞動從屬的內涵，多數的判決都認定他們是僱傭，而不是承攬，所以臺灣國內的法院也都是這樣子，法制化的保障，這一個是跑不掉的，一定要法制化保障，然後絕對不應該是外送員內部沒有共識，跟你們討論沒有共識，跟交通部沒有共識，要行政院來協調，不是這樣子一句話就可以帶過了，你今天在這裡就是這樣子，閃躲啦，顧左右而言他啦，問東答西啦。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","請林楚茵委員。林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","現在請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}}