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248.738, \"text\": \"在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 231.241, \"end\": 231.782, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 231.782, \"end\": 232.082, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 232.082, \"end\": 232.242, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 232.242, \"end\": 232.402, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 232.402, \"end\": 232.542, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 232.542, \"end\": 233.343, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 233.343, \"end\": 233.764, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 233.764, \"end\": 234.104, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 234.104, \"end\": 234.644, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, 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\"所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 275.698, \"end\": 275.798, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 275.798, \"end\": 275.938, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 275.938, \"end\": 276.278, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 276.278, \"end\": 276.698, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 276.698, \"end\": 276.958, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 276.958, \"end\": 277.178, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 277.178, \"end\": 277.378, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 277.378, \"end\": 277.538, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 277.538, \"end\": 277.638, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 277.638, \"end\": 277.698, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 277.698, 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{\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 716.754, \"end\": 716.974, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 716.974, \"end\": 717.094, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 717.094, \"end\": 717.114, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,902 --> 00:00:01,122\n請局長來局長請\n\n2\n00:00:08,649 --> 00:00:30,141\n紀委主席蔡委員好局長好剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個親會的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這一次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的親那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長親會的這個部署圖是真的還是假的\n\n3\n00:00:34,457 --> 00:01:00,003\n這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的嘛對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有\n\n4\n00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:27,829\n我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講它還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況\n\n5\n00:01:29,109 --> 00:01:52,615\n國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息那或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的脫毒客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研理的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核\n\n6\n00:01:52,995 --> 00:01:53,836\n從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子\n\n7\n00:02:12,978 --> 00:02:20,304\n我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的\n\n8\n00:02:40,819 --> 00:03:05,551\n包括海巡等等的全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍友剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是\n\n9\n00:03:07,472 --> 00:03:23,099\n這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差\n\n10\n00:03:23,759 --> 00:03:50,701\n國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛才很多委員\n\n11\n00:03:51,241 --> 00:04:08,738\n在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的\n\n12\n00:04:09,598 --> 00:04:34,857\n謝謝局長我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍援也不是這一次這一系列的軍援是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應\n\n13\n00:04:35,698 --> 00:04:44,700\n所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中\n\n14\n00:05:05,484 --> 00:05:06,705\n請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了\n\n15\n00:05:31,637 --> 00:05:56,907\n當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強\n\n16\n00:06:01,069 --> 00:06:23,444\n對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點\n\n17\n00:06:24,504 --> 00:06:53,419\n確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個邁肯前美國的參議員那去世的邁肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的\n\n18\n00:06:53,959 --> 00:07:21,317\n意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情把過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在\n\n19\n00:07:23,598 --> 00:07:29,824\n昨天還有一個消息剛委員講的部分我們剛才在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛才有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎\n\n20\n00:07:44,296 --> 00:08:01,922\n局長好那再來就是說還有一個消息就是說中油的天然氣傳出因為這個軍人的影響被迫掉頭但是中油跟經濟部已經第一時間發布聲明說是供應正常天然氣也高於法定的這個天數可是局長就國安局研判這次軍人有沒有造成海空上面的影響航線上面的影響目前我沒有看到這樣的問題\n\n21\n00:08:02,702 --> 00:08:27,686\n那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共還台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有有沒有方案\n\n22\n00:08:28,166 --> 00:08:50,798\n有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制\n\n23\n00:08:51,978 --> 00:09:20,084\n請給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要請國防部我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣\n\n24\n00:09:22,344 --> 00:09:47,650\n這個部分我必須再強調這次演習我還是把日本的那個圖片有沒有來分享給他們看其實這個日本防衛社的統合幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示那剛才陳鴻康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分還有給民眾\n\n25\n00:09:49,244 --> 00:10:13,923\n我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險\n\n26\n00:10:14,944 --> 00:10:30,029\n那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾\n\n27\n00:10:31,049 --> 00:10:31,549\n這是涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺\n\n28\n00:10:58,630 --> 00:11:20,921\n我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這個領域的藥藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越嚴厲而且說真的他們的\n\n29\n00:11:21,941 --> 00:11:30,185\n我相信也是有所提升只要演練這樣就會有所提升所以我們不可以不知道風險所以這個部分還是希望局長能夠來去統合一下還有最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分\n\n30\n00:11:37,128 --> 00:11:57,114\n其實這次我還是強調我們這次我們的海底電纜的障礙統計其實一年比一年高所以剛才有在野黨的委員有提到這樣子的議題就是說在國外建立電廠再輸電回來這個部分可能也要注意到海纜障礙的這個部分還在規劃的時候把國安的這些情資先給夜管單位讓他們做參考謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n902\t1122\t請局長來 局長請\n8649\t30141\t紀委主席 蔡委員好 局長好 剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個親會的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這一次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的親那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長親會的這個部署圖是真的還是假的\n34457\t60003\t這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的嘛對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有\n63680\t87829\t我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好 謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講它還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況\n89109\t112615\t國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息那或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的脫毒客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研理的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核\n112995\t113836\t從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子\n132978\t140304\t我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的\n160819\t185551\t包括海巡等等的全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍友剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是\n187472\t203099\t這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差\n203759\t230701\t國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛才很多委員\n231241\t248738\t在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的\n249598\t274857\t謝謝局長我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍援也不是這一次這一系列的軍援是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應\n275698\t284700\t所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中\n305484\t306705\t請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了\n331637\t356907\t當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強\n361069\t383444\t對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點\n384504\t413419\t確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個邁肯前美國的參議員那去世的邁肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的\n413959\t441317\t意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情把過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在\n443598\t449824\t昨天還有一個消息剛委員講的部分我們剛才在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛才有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎\n464296\t481922\t局長好那再來就是說還有一個消息就是說中油的天然氣傳出因為這個軍人的影響被迫掉頭但是中油跟經濟部已經第一時間發布聲明說是供應正常天然氣也高於法定的這個天數可是局長就國安局研判這次軍人有沒有造成海空上面的影響航線上面的影響目前我沒有看到這樣的問題\n482702\t507686\t那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共還台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有有沒有方案\n508166\t530798\t有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制\n531978\t560084\t請給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要請國防部我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣\n562344\t587650\t這個部分我必須再強調這次演習我還是把日本的那個圖片有沒有來分享給他們看其實這個日本防衛社的統合幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示那剛才陳鴻康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分還有給民眾\n589244\t613923\t我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險\n614944\t630029\t那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾\n631049\t631549\t這是涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺\n658630\t680921\t我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這個領域的藥藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越嚴厲而且說真的他們的\n681941\t690185\t我相信也是有所提升只要演練這樣就會有所提升所以我們不可以不知道風險所以這個部分還是希望局長能夠來去統合一下還有最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分\n697128\t717114\t其實這次我還是強調我們這次我們的海底電纜的障礙統計其實一年比一年高所以剛才有在野黨的委員有提到這樣子的議題就是說在國外建立電廠再輸電回來這個部分可能也要注意到海纜障礙的這個部分還在規劃的時候把國安的這些情資先給夜管單位讓他們做參考謝謝\n","txt":"請局長來 局長請\n紀委主席 蔡委員好 局長好 剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個親會的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這一次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的親那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長親會的這個部署圖是真的還是假的\n這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的嘛對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有\n我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好 謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講它還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況\n國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息那或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的脫毒客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研理的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核\n從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子\n我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的\n包括海巡等等的全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍友剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是\n這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差\n國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛才很多委員\n在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的\n謝謝局長我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍援也不是這一次這一系列的軍援是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應\n所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中\n請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了\n當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強\n對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點\n確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個邁肯前美國的參議員那去世的邁肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的\n意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情把過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在\n昨天還有一個消息剛委員講的部分我們剛才在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛才有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎\n局長好那再來就是說還有一個消息就是說中油的天然氣傳出因為這個軍人的影響被迫掉頭但是中油跟經濟部已經第一時間發布聲明說是供應正常天然氣也高於法定的這個天數可是局長就國安局研判這次軍人有沒有造成海空上面的影響航線上面的影響目前我沒有看到這樣的問題\n那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共還台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有有沒有方案\n有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制\n請給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要請國防部我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣\n這個部分我必須再強調這次演習我還是把日本的那個圖片有沒有來分享給他們看其實這個日本防衛社的統合幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示那剛才陳鴻康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分還有給民眾\n我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險\n那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾\n這是涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺\n我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這個領域的藥藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越嚴厲而且說真的他們的\n我相信也是有所提升只要演練這樣就會有所提升所以我們不可以不知道風險所以這個部分還是希望局長能夠來去統合一下還有最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分\n其實這次我還是強調我們這次我們的海底電纜的障礙統計其實一年比一年高所以剛才有在野黨的委員有提到這樣子的議題就是說在國外建立電廠再輸電回來這個部分可能也要注意到海纜障礙的這個部分還在規劃的時候把國安的這些情資先給夜管單位讓他們做參考謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.902 --> 00:01.122\n請局長來局長請\n\n00:08.649 --> 00:30.141\n紀委主席蔡委員好局長好剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個親會的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這一次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的親那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長親會的這個部署圖是真的還是假的\n\n00:34.457 --> 01:00.003\n這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的嘛對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有\n\n01:03.680 --> 01:27.829\n我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講它還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況\n\n01:29.109 --> 01:52.615\n國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息那或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的脫毒客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研理的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核\n\n01:52.995 --> 01:53.836\n從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子\n\n02:12.978 --> 02:20.304\n我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的\n\n02:40.819 --> 03:05.551\n包括海巡等等的全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍友剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是\n\n03:07.472 --> 03:23.099\n這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差\n\n03:23.759 --> 03:50.701\n國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛才很多委員\n\n03:51.241 --> 04:08.738\n在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的\n\n04:09.598 --> 04:34.857\n謝謝局長我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍援也不是這一次這一系列的軍援是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應\n\n04:35.698 --> 04:44.700\n所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中\n\n05:05.484 --> 05:06.705\n請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了\n\n05:31.637 --> 05:56.907\n當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強\n\n06:01.069 --> 06:23.444\n對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點\n\n06:24.504 --> 06:53.419\n確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個邁肯前美國的參議員那去世的邁肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的\n\n06:53.959 --> 07:21.317\n意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情把過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在\n\n07:23.598 --> 07:29.824\n昨天還有一個消息剛委員講的部分我們剛才在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛才有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎\n\n07:44.296 --> 08:01.922\n局長好那再來就是說還有一個消息就是說中油的天然氣傳出因為這個軍人的影響被迫掉頭但是中油跟經濟部已經第一時間發布聲明說是供應正常天然氣也高於法定的這個天數可是局長就國安局研判這次軍人有沒有造成海空上面的影響航線上面的影響目前我沒有看到這樣的問題\n\n08:02.702 --> 08:27.686\n那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共還台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有有沒有方案\n\n08:28.166 --> 08:50.798\n有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制\n\n08:51.978 --> 09:20.084\n請給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要請國防部我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣\n\n09:22.344 --> 09:47.650\n這個部分我必須再強調這次演習我還是把日本的那個圖片有沒有來分享給他們看其實這個日本防衛社的統合幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示那剛才陳鴻康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分還有給民眾\n\n09:49.244 --> 10:13.923\n我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險\n\n10:14.944 --> 10:30.029\n那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾\n\n10:31.049 --> 10:31.549\n這是涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺\n\n10:58.630 --> 11:20.921\n我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這個領域的藥藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越嚴厲而且說真的他們的\n\n11:21.941 --> 11:30.185\n我相信也是有所提升只要演練這樣就會有所提升所以我們不可以不知道風險所以這個部分還是希望局長能夠來去統合一下還有最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分\n\n11:37.128 --> 11:57.114\n其實這次我還是強調我們這次我們的海底電纜的障礙統計其實一年比一年高所以剛才有在野黨的委員有提到這樣子的議題就是說在國外建立電廠再輸電回來這個部分可能也要注意到海纜障礙的這個部分還在規劃的時候把國安的這些情資先給夜管單位讓他們做參考謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.902,"end":1.122,"text":"請局長來 局長請"},{"start":8.649,"end":30.141,"text":"紀委主席 蔡委員好 局長好 剛才有幾位委員問到這一個潛艦艦長的這個親會的福建沿海軍事署要交給國安局那在這一次中共的軍演那這一次中共軍演進了海巡也有查獲到中國的偷渡犯那做灰色地帶的親那我想請教的是說關於這個潛艦艦長親會的這個部署圖是真的還是假的"},{"start":34.457,"end":60.003,"text":"這因為涉及到法院給我們的相關文件我不適合多來公開說明但是因為它有涉及到對於一些中共軍事狀況的一些意見我們會來做進一步的研析因為它是由法院正式行文給我們的有法院正式行文給的嘛對不對對那但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":63.68,"end":87.829,"text":"我看這個國會的麥克風可能真的要修理一下了不管是這個還是這個都好 謝謝謝謝局長那我必須強調一下這一個不管是中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的這些他們背景海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好那他們帶來的情資對我們來講它還是有一定的重要性那我還是希望說未來這樣子的狀況"},{"start":89.109,"end":112.615,"text":"國安局能夠把他系統整理起來有一個標準的應變措施有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假亂訊息那或者是說他只是要用這樣子的方式用這樣子的做法那大量的脫毒客過來之後那他會說他們要來投誠這些研習的話這些研理的這些範圍我們很難去講說只有一個國安局一個要做報案調查局都要做這個背景的查核"},{"start":112.995,"end":113.836,"text":"從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的這一個中國來的男子"},{"start":132.978,"end":140.304,"text":"我必須說是從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島再進入北部的我們最精華的這個輸入地區所以這都是已經有系統性的在我這部分還是希望說局長能夠聯合其他的"},{"start":160.819,"end":185.551,"text":"包括海巡等等的全面性的去做偵訪這個有這個有那第二點就是針對這個環台軍人這個環台軍友剛剛聽到很多委員一起來去詢問那看起來是我們國安局有事先得知有這樣的啟示是這樣的我們有綜合研判有綜合研判那除了我們知道時間我們知道地點我們要知道他的意圖是什麼我想請問局長他的意圖是什麼是封鎖是隔離是阻斷是自由是"},{"start":187.472,"end":203.099,"text":"這個進行這個外島的奪取還是進行登陸作戰的準備他意圖要分政治的跟軍事的那在政治的部分來講那我剛也跟媒體朋友在說明我們注意到中共在看台灣的問題跟國際社會存在很大的一個落差"},{"start":203.759,"end":230.701,"text":"國際社會對於台灣的相關的政策表現都認為非常的沉穩非常的務實那非常的溫和但中共把它認為是一種挑釁所以第一個在政治上我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全的不一樣那因為這樣的情況之下在國際社會支持台灣之下中共在政治上透過這個軍演一方面來對內交代一方面來對台施壓另一方面來對國際市井軍事上軍事上這部分剛才很多委員"},{"start":231.241,"end":248.738,"text":"在討論過程當中有跟委員們來說明他這次畫了本島外面的6個演習區那有針對我們的重要的港口所以他這次演練的重點的科目就在於要遇要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊所以這大概是這一次軍事上主要要演練的目的"},{"start":249.598,"end":274.857,"text":"謝謝局長我看這一個包含美太平洋的陸軍司令扶林上將有提到他說這一次中共的軍援也不是這一次這一系列的軍援是漸進式的陰險且不負責任的那不負責任當然是說包含沒有事先提供預警那很多其實一般的民航這些都不知道說原來他今天而且像各位報告美國國防部特別強調的是認為中共的這個軍事演習是過度反應"},{"start":275.698,"end":284.7,"text":"所以這個局長我想大家應該都已經很清楚了這是中共的至少這個做法當然美國方面是有很強烈的國際社會也是日本那剛才有很多委員有提到說包含朝鮮、俄羅斯其實在這一系列的軍演當中"},{"start":305.484,"end":306.705,"text":"請問局長我們該怎麼應對應該是這麼講好了"},{"start":331.637,"end":356.907,"text":"當局長你在跟其他的國家的情資單位在交流的時候是不是可以利用這樣子的機會跟他們說當這個俄羅斯朝鮮還有這個包含伊朗在內如果他們都某種程度在情報上面都開始有共享的機制甚至連演練都有共享演練的機制的時候是不是我們能夠加強情報分享的力度加強海上演訓的力度甚至加強"},{"start":361.069,"end":383.444,"text":"對,就剛剛委員提到可能中二潮或一相關的演習的話我們現在特別注意的是中共跟俄國他確實有一些演訓的活動包括海軍的演訓甚至是海警船的演訓他們才剛剛進行聯合的巡弋剛剛快要結束任務這大概是第一關注的重點"},{"start":384.504,"end":413.419,"text":"確實我們會跟國際友盟在戰略溝通跟情報分享上會保持密切的聯繫局長我的意思是說希望你藉由這個機會藉由他們包含中國還有朝鮮還有俄羅斯共同洋動的這個這樣子的挑戰的時候把這樣的機會跟他們講說他們都在做的時候我們不能不做我為什麼特別這樣講就是包含這個邁肯前美國的參議員那去世的邁肯他不斷的強調從2014年到之後他一直強調說當普丁他的"},{"start":413.959,"end":441.317,"text":"意念很堅持就是要把整個烏東要重回那個俄羅斯的帝國的榮耀的時候美國的情報單位也好不斷的說我們必須要遏制我們自己的這個意圖就是我們不可以把太多的情報給烏克蘭不然會導致局勢的升級就是因為這樣子讓普丁能夠漸進式的來去侵擾這個烏克蘭所以我必須強調利用這樣子的挑戰的時候把現在把過去的他們做錯的事情把過去我們可以彌補的錯誤來提出來說那現在"},{"start":443.598,"end":449.824,"text":"昨天還有一個消息剛委員講的部分我們剛才在機密報告已經有把相關的成果做很完整的呈現我剛才有在對我是說你用這個機會跟他講你剛剛沒有注意到我在那邊嗎"},{"start":464.296,"end":481.922,"text":"局長好那再來就是說還有一個消息就是說中油的天然氣傳出因為這個軍人的影響被迫掉頭但是中油跟經濟部已經第一時間發布聲明說是供應正常天然氣也高於法定的這個天數可是局長就國安局研判這次軍人有沒有造成海空上面的影響航線上面的影響目前我沒有看到這樣的問題"},{"start":482.702,"end":507.686,"text":"那個真的是正義訊息的操作任日作戰目前沒有嘛但是2022年中共還台軍演的時候有18條航線受到控制那是因為整個是實彈的而且又封鎖區域比這次大很多如果是這樣的話經濟上面的影響還有進出口會不會受到影響就是針對封鎖封控我們有沒有相關的反制的做法有這部分我們國安單位有在討論一直都有在討論有在討論有有沒有方案"},{"start":508.166,"end":530.798,"text":"有就針對不同的可能的封控的方式那以及我們怎麼來應應的一些方案有在討論有在討論可不可以把相關的方案跟我們分享一下因為這部分包括國防部在漢光也不斷的在做實際的編隊不是討論而已而是要做實兵的演練把那個相關的這個針對這樣的封控我們的計劃是怎麼樣去反制"},{"start":531.978,"end":560.084,"text":"請給我們一個報告讓我們到辦公室來瞭解一下好我們就分析的角度給委員參考但國防部的實作部分可能要請國防部我們不需要實作至少從分析的角度我們要一個說法不要讓民眾說當只要他們封控的話我們沒有任何的方式可以去做應對好不好這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後在跟其他國家交流的時候知道說我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才可以增加我們反封控的能量這個是對話交流都還是需要的好不好應該這樣"},{"start":562.344,"end":587.65,"text":"這個部分我必須再強調這次演習我還是把日本的那個圖片有沒有來分享給他們看其實這個日本防衛社的統合幕僚監部都有發布相關的這樣子的圖示那剛才陳鴻康委員也把這個共同圖像不斷的強調那我認為其實包含陸海空軍可能在這個共同圖像的部分還有給民眾"},{"start":589.244,"end":613.923,"text":"我們用文字來去形容的時候我們不知道說它實際上的威脅在哪裡我們不知道我們實際上面臨的風險在哪裡其實這一次包含我們的股市我們的金融的反應都是非常的強韌的其實基本上沒有受到影響反而是中國方面受到影響但是我認為這有兩個可能性第一個是我國民不知道風險第二個是我國政府應對得以那我認為我們的政府當然是應對得以但是我們的國民有沒有知道風險"},{"start":614.944,"end":630.029,"text":"那怎麼樣知道風險藉由包含我們之前提到的我們前幾天就知道說中國的聯合力艦兵環台軍演會直接實施了嘛都有可能有情資都會知道所以我們透過不管是國安局等等我們必須要有相關的這些情資的分享給民眾"},{"start":631.049,"end":631.549,"text":"這是涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺"},{"start":658.63,"end":680.921,"text":"我們不希望不知不覺我們希望有警覺我們也不希望說雖然說他這24小時就結束但是剛才聽到包含23個小時24小時之內就結束了但是從他們在夜間演練的頻度強度還有離我國的這個領域的藥藥港的這個接近度接迫程度是越來越嚴厲而且說真的他們的"},{"start":681.941,"end":690.185,"text":"我相信也是有所提升只要演練這樣就會有所提升所以我們不可以不知道風險所以這個部分還是希望局長能夠來去統合一下還有最後一個問題就是針對這個我們可能要從電纜然後從國外建立電廠這件部分"},{"start":697.128,"end":717.114,"text":"其實這次我還是強調我們這次我們的海底電纜的障礙統計其實一年比一年高所以剛才有在野黨的委員有提到這樣子的議題就是說在國外建立電廠再輸電回來這個部分可能也要注意到海纜障礙的這個部分還在規劃的時候把國安的這些情資先給夜管單位讓他們做參考謝謝"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:16:10 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11:28:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":155552,"gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時16分）我請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好，剛才有幾位委員有問到，這位潛艦艦長親繪福建沿海軍事部署情資要交給國安局，而在這一次的中共軍演，金門海巡也有查獲中國的偷渡犯做灰色地帶的侵擾。我想請教的是，關於潛艦艦長親繪的部署圖是真的還是假的？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這涉及到法院給我們的相關文件，我不適合對外公開說明，但因為這有涉及到對於中共軍事狀況的一些意見，我們會來做進一步的研析，因為這是由法院正式行文給我們的。"],["陳委員冠廷：由法院正式行文給的嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是你們現在已經有先做一些研析……"],["蔡局長明彥：有！"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有辦法在這個公開的場合上……"],["蔡局長明彥：是！不適合，請委員能夠理解。"],["陳委員冠廷：告訴我們這個部署圖是真的假的？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，請包含。"],["陳委員冠廷：我看國會的這個麥克風可能真的要修理一下了，不管是這個還是這個都……","好，謝謝局長，我必須強調一下，不管中國的偷渡客有沒有國安的背景，海軍的背景也好或者是軍情的背景也好，他們帶來的情資對我們來講還是有一定的重要性，我還是希望說，未來這樣子的狀況國安局能夠把它系統整理起來、有一個標準的應變措施，因為有可能他提供的這些部署圖根本就是錯假訊息。"],["蔡局長明彥：是！"],["陳委員冠廷：或者他只是要用這樣子的方式、用這樣子的作法，在大量的偷渡客過來之後，他會說他們要來投誠，關於這些研析、研擬的範圍，我們很難講說只有國安局一個要做，包括調查局都要做背景的查核，有可能他們帶過來的這些，包含他的手機，我們在做背景查核的時候，你發覺到他根本就是帶新的手機來。"],["蔡局長明彥：有可能。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以全面性都是在用錯假、誤導的方式來刺探我們的部署。從過去非演習時期就有闖淡水河堤的中國男子，到現在配合「聯合利劍2024-B」環臺軍演的時候還能夠進入到我們的海域裡面，不管他是用什麼樣的理由，我想這已經是系統性的作法，我必須說從COVID-19的時候就已經有類似這樣子，用橡皮艇先從離島再進入本島、再進入北部最精華的地區，所以這都已經有系統性的。這部分我還是希望局長能夠聯合其他的，包含海巡等等全面性進行偵防。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個有！"],["陳委員冠廷：第二點就是針對這個環臺軍演，我剛剛聽到很多委員也有詢問，看起來我們國安局事先得知、有這樣的情資，是不是這樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，國防部也有，我們有綜合研判。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們除了知道時間、知道地點，我們要知道它的意圖是什麼？我想請問局長，它的意圖是什麼？是封鎖、是隔離、是阻斷、是自由，是進行外島的奪取，還是進行登陸作戰的準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：它的意圖要分政治的跟軍事的，在政治的部分，我剛剛也跟媒體朋友說明，我們注意到中共在看臺灣問題跟國際社會存在一個很大的落差，國際社會對於臺灣的相關政策表現都認為非常的沉穩、非常的務實、非常的溫和，但中共認為是一種挑釁，所以第一個在政治上，我們覺得中共的解讀跟國際社會完全不一樣，也因為這樣的情況、在國際社會支持臺灣之下，中共在政治上透過這個軍演，一方面對內交代、一方面對臺施壓、另一方面對國際示警；關於軍事上，這部分剛剛也在討論過程當中跟很多委員們說明，這次它在本島外面劃的六個演習區有針對我們的重要港口，所以它這次演練的重點科目就在於要域、要港的封控以及對陸對海的打擊，這個大概是這次軍事上主要演練的目的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。美太平洋陸軍司令弗林上將也提到，中共這一系列的軍演是漸進式的，陰險且不負責任。所謂的不負責任，當然是指沒有事先提供預警，其實一般民航都不知道原來它今天……"],["蔡局長明彥：報告委員，美國國防部特別強調，認為中共的軍事演習是過度反應，破壞穩定的挑釁行為。我個人很少看到美國國防部發布相關新聞的……"],["陳委員冠廷：措辭這麼重。"],["蔡局長明彥：措辭這麼重，真的是很罕見。"],["陳委員冠廷：了解。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，大家應該都已經很清楚，美國對於中共這次的作法是有很強烈的反饋。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，國際社會的國家都有，像是日本。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才也有很多委員提到，包含朝鮮、俄羅斯，其實在這次一系列的軍演中都有某種程度上的配合，也有可能是佯動，但就我所知，朝鮮與中國的關係目前並沒有這麼樣的友善。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：但它與俄羅斯之間的關係是有配合的。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果中國與俄羅斯、朝鮮在這樣的情況下做情報共享，甚至未來有共同軍演的傾向存在的話，請問局長，我們該怎麼應對？應該是這樣講，當局長與其他國家的情治單位交流時，是不是可以利用這樣的機會告訴他們，當俄羅斯、朝鮮、甚至是包含伊朗在內，如果他們在某種程度上開始有情報共享的機制，甚至是有共享演練的機制時，我們是不是能夠加強情報分享的力度、加強海上演訓的力度、甚至加強國軍與其他軍種，包含美國、甚至包含日本在內的訓練機會？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對剛剛委員提到中、俄、朝或伊可能有的相關演習，我們現在已經特別注意到中共與俄國確實有一些演訓活動，包括海軍的演訓、甚至是海警船的演訓，他們才剛剛進行聯合巡弋，即將要結束任務，這個大概是第一個關注的重點。第二個，我們確實會與國際友盟在戰略溝通及國際情報分享上保持密切的聯繫。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我的意思是希望你藉由這個機會、藉由中國與朝鮮、俄羅斯共同佯動挑戰的時候，告訴盟友，當他們都在做的時候，我們也不能不做。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：為什麼我會特別這樣講？包含美國已逝世的前參議員麥肯從2014年之後就一直強調，當普丁意念很堅持的要把整個烏東重回俄羅斯帝國的榮耀時，美國的情報單位卻不斷地表示要遏制自己的意圖，也就是不可以把太多的情報分享給烏克蘭，不然會導致局勢的升級，也就是因為如此，才讓普丁能夠漸進式的侵擾烏克蘭。因此，我必須強調要利用這樣的挑戰，針對過去他們做錯的事、針對過去我們可以彌補的錯誤，提出現在必須要更加強我方與菲律賓及日本的情資共享。"],["蔡局長明彥：關於剛剛委員講的部分，我們已經在機密報告中將相關成果做了很完整的呈現。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛剛我也在場，現在只是利用這個機會提出來，可能你剛剛沒有注意到我也在場。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：還有一個消息，中油液化天然氣船傳出因為軍演而被迫掉頭，但是中油與經濟部已經在第一時間發布聲明，表示供應正常，天然氣存量也高於法定的天數。局長，根據國安局的研判，這次軍演有沒有造成海空上的影響？航線上的影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，目前我沒看到有這樣的問題。那個真的是爭議訊息的操作、認知作戰。"],["陳委員冠廷：目前沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是2022年中共環臺軍演時有18條航線受到影響。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為當時整個是實彈，而且封鎖區域又比這次大很多。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果是這樣的話，對於經濟以及進出口是否會受到影響，其實就在於我們針對封鎖封控有沒有相關的反制做法。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，針對這個部分，我們國安單位一直都有討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們有討論？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：有沒有方案？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，針對不同的、可能的封控方式以及如何因應的一些方案，我們都有討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：有討論？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以將相關的方案與我們分享一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對這個部分，包括國防部在漢光也不斷地做實際的兵推，不是討論而已，而是要做實兵的演練，不斷的修正。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，能否將我們針對這樣的封控要如何反制的相關計畫提出一份報告，送到辦公室讓我們了解一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們就分析的角度提供給委員參考，但國防部實作的部分可能要請國防部……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們不需要實作，至少從分析的角度要有一個說法，不要讓民眾認為當他們封控時我們沒有任何方式可以應對，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個部分至少要讓國會議員以後與其他國家交流時，知道我們需要什麼樣的資源進來才能增加我們反封控的能量，這個對話交流都還是需要的，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該這樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：關於這次的演習，我還是將日本的圖片分享給大家看，其實日本防衛省的統合幕僚監部都有發布這樣的相關圖示，剛才陳永康委員也是不斷的強調共同圖像，但我認為包含陸海空軍可能在共同圖像的部分以及向民眾用文字形容時，其實我們並不知道它實際的威脅在哪裡、不知道實際面臨的風險在哪裡？這次包含我們的股市、我們的金融反應都是非常的強韌，基本上並沒有受到影響，反而是中國方面受到影響。我認為這個有兩個可能性，第一個是我國國民不知道風險、第二個是我國政府應對得宜。我們的政府當然是應對得宜，但是我們的國民是否知道風險？怎麼樣知道風險？其實前幾天我們就知道中國的聯合利劍B環臺軍演會直接實施，可能藉由相關情資都會知道，因此，無論是透過國安局等等，我們都必須將相關情資分享給民眾，可能會有什麼樣的影響。譬如最近發生衝突的以色列，他們有一個Home Front Command（全民防線）的app，讓他們知道遇到真正的侵擾時距離他們最近的避難地點在哪裡，以及水、糧、油與軍事等等的狀況是如何，我想國安局針對這個部分還是可以做一個綜整，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這涉及到民眾的國安警覺、國安知覺，我們來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們不希望不知不覺，而是希望能有警覺。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，國安知覺。"],["陳委員冠廷：雖然它是24個小時就結束了，但是剛剛聽到……"],["蔡局長明彥：13個小時。"],["陳委員冠廷：13個小時，也就是在24小時之內就結束了，但是從他們夜間演練的頻度、強度以及距離我國的……"],["蔡局長明彥：要域、要港。"],["陳委員冠廷：與領域的要域、要港接近度、接迫程度是越來越嚴厲，說真的，我相信他們的能力也是有所提升，只要演練就會有所提升，因此，我們不可以不知道風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：針對這個部分，還是希望局長能夠統合一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後一個問題，針對我們可能要在國外建立電廠，再由電纜將電力輸送回來的部分，我還是要強調，根據我們對於海底電纜障礙的統計，其實是一年比一年高，剛才也有在野黨委員提到這樣的議題，因此，對於在國外建立電廠再輸電回來的部分，可能也要注意到海纜障礙的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：業者都還在規劃評估。"],["陳委員冠廷：既然還在規劃階段，你們就先將國外的這些情資提供給業管單位參考。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時28分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來進行詢答的是黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}}