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{\"start\": 99.22, \"end\": 127.638, \"text\": \"這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 99.22, \"end\": 99.621, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 99.621, \"end\": 99.901, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 99.901, \"end\": 100.381, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 100.381, \"end\": 100.541, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 100.541, \"end\": 100.761, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 100.761, \"end\": 101.242, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 101.242, \"end\": 101.522, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 101.522, \"end\": 101.702, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 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00:00:47,980\n那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題\n\n3\n00:00:49,738 --> 00:01:08,952\n美國的眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎\n\n4\n00:01:10,083 --> 00:01:38,140\n我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出場的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的\n\n5\n00:01:39,220 --> 00:02:07,638\n這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險\n\n6\n00:02:08,519 --> 00:02:18,439\n局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛才回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個\n\n7\n00:02:20,824 --> 00:02:47,000\n這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問\n\n8\n00:02:49,079 --> 00:03:17,837\n相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是\n\n9\n00:03:18,097 --> 00:03:20,999\n主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些\n\n10\n00:03:47,037 --> 00:03:48,378\n接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是\n\n11\n00:04:15,473 --> 00:04:42,084\n雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作\n\n12\n00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:58,143\n我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題\n\n13\n00:05:00,673 --> 00:05:26,540\n這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員\n\n14\n00:05:28,058 --> 00:05:54,995\n如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長\n\n15\n00:05:59,507 --> 00:06:27,543\n這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升\n\n16\n00:06:28,789 --> 00:06:52,102\n可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌\n\n17\n00:07:23,717 --> 00:07:53,178\n所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度\n\n18\n00:07:54,499 --> 00:08:14,498\n要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中\n\n19\n00:08:16,226 --> 00:08:18,087\n現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個下面這部分\n\n20\n00:08:45,926 --> 00:09:05,005\n市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。\n\n21\n00:09:05,706 --> 00:09:32,937\n學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n489\t28626\t謝謝主席那請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 洪委員好嗯 局長齁今年五月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈博洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況\n30202\t47980\t那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局 航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題\n49738\t68952\t美國的眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎\n70083\t98140\t我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出場的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的\n99220\t127638\t這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險\n128519\t138439\t局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛才回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對 港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個\n140824\t167000\t這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問\n169079\t197837\t相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是\n198097\t200999\t主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些\n227037\t228378\t接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是\n255473\t282084\t雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作\n283516\t298143\t我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題\n300673\t326540\t這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員\n328058\t354995\t如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長\n359507\t387543\t這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升\n388789\t412102\t可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌\n413268\t442841\t對\n443717\t473178\t所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度\n474499\t494498\t要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中\n496226\t498087\t現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個 下面這部分\n525926\t545005\t市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。\n545706\t572937\t學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題\n","txt":"謝謝主席那請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 洪委員好嗯 局長齁今年五月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈博洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況\n那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局 航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題\n美國的眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎\n我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出場的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的\n這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險\n局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛才回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對 港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個\n這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問\n相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是\n主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些\n接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是\n雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作\n我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題\n這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員\n如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長\n這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升\n可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌\n對\n所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度\n要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中\n現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個 下面這部分\n市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。\n學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.489 --> 00:28.626\n謝謝主席那請蔡局長來局長請好謝謝主席洪委員好嗯局長齁今年五月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈博洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況\n\n00:30.202 --> 00:47.980\n那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局航港局說這個啟動機的硬體是中國製的但軟體沒有中國製我們後來去問好像也是用這個這是航港局的說法那局長其實這個事情也引起了美國眾議院的關注所以他們就港口的啟動機的問題\n\n00:49.738 --> 01:08.952\n美國的眾議院做了一年的調查在9月12號剛公布的報告裡面在這份報告裡面其實有寫說中國製的起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體局長這個額外的硬體你知道這個額外硬體是什麼你有看過這份報告嗎\n\n01:10.083 --> 01:38.140\n我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容但我知道國際有在關注這個議題這個額外的硬體其實就是在後續維修時才裝起來的看起來是一個加強的設備所以在原本驗收出場的時候看起來是正常的可是它是在維修的時候再把它裝上去所以相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡當然它的說法是我要方便遠端維修但事實上它是可以回傳資料回去中國的\n\n01:39.220 --> 02:07.638\n這是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個事情所以這報告甚至可以發現說：就算是非中國製的起重機：有可能它如果用了中國製的零件送回到中國維修的時候也可能被加裝額外的硬體尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體所以局長我要請問你你認為港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統而且還是中國製的你覺得這有沒有國安的風險有被裝的話當然是要注意的國安風險\n\n02:08.519 --> 02:18.439\n局長這是一個很大的風險可是就像你剛才回答我的你說你問了相關單位對不對你問了港港局他們說沒有聯網對港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個\n\n02:20.824 --> 02:47.000\n這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問\n\n02:49.079 --> 03:17.837\n相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是\n\n03:18.097 --> 03:20.999\n主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些\n\n03:47.037 --> 03:48.378\n接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是\n\n04:15.473 --> 04:42.084\n雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作\n\n04:43.516 --> 04:58.143\n我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題\n\n05:00.673 --> 05:26.540\n這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員\n\n05:28.058 --> 05:54.995\n如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長\n\n05:59.507 --> 06:27.543\n這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升\n\n06:28.789 --> 06:52.102\n可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌\n\n07:23.717 --> 07:53.178\n所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度\n\n07:54.499 --> 08:14.498\n要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中\n\n08:16.226 --> 08:18.087\n現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個下面這部分\n\n08:45.926 --> 09:05.005\n市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。\n\n09:05.706 --> 09:32.937\n學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.489,"end":28.626,"text":"謝謝主席那請蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 洪委員好嗯 局長齁今年五月齁我跟幾位委員包括中加病委員跟沈博洋委員我們開了一場記者會那這個記者會的內容其實就是要去指出這個中國製的起重機這個配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況"},{"start":30.202,"end":47.98,"text":"那我之前有來問我們交通部的航港局 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港港局說沒有聯網但是呢他說在這個設備裡面是一個"},{"start":140.824,"end":167,"text":"這個像美國眾議院說的他是被可以額外再裝上去的而且他有傳輸能力的所以這個局長我想問我們要提美國政府他其實為了國家安全他其實甚至編列現在編列了大概兩百多億的美金大概六千多億台幣要來更換美國港口的這些起重機那他們當然規定說接下來他們要用自己本土生產的起重機那當然就是因為意識到國安風險所以局長我想問"},{"start":169.079,"end":197.837,"text":"相對於像美國政府他從國安風險的角度做這個事情我覺得好像我們自己的國安單位對這部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警有沒有把這當作是一個議題還是等事件爆發了以後再來找相關單位可是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況局長覺得我們該怎麼做比較好對大概這個議題在上個會期也很多委員在指導包括我記得鍾嘉斌委員好像也跟我提過這件事是"},{"start":198.097,"end":200.999,"text":"主要我想這事情可不可以請你在跟韓港局或者是我們這些"},{"start":227.037,"end":228.378,"text":"接下來我也要再跟局長在討論的事情是"},{"start":255.473,"end":282.084,"text":"雖然我們很清楚知道臺灣其實是海島我們很多的原物料都是走空運跟海運那其中海運當然是更大宗的那這邊當然就有一個問題如果幫臺灣海運的這些貨船那也許因為成本考量或管理問題如果他們用大量的中國籍船員如果在台海發生緊張的狀況的時候那我們的這些海運要怎麼運作"},{"start":283.516,"end":298.143,"text":"我們能不能控制得住這些中國籍的船員他們會不會願意來幫台灣在兩岸可能假設遇到緊張狀況的時候來運貨在船上工作來協助我們的物資輸送你覺得這會不會是個問題"},{"start":300.673,"end":326.54,"text":"這確實是一個要注意的問題我們剛同學在跟我說明我們有一個機制對於中國船員的僱用還有相關船舶公司他是有一個審查的機制審查什麼?審查他對中國政府重不忠心還是審查他在台海如果發生真的有緊張的時候他會願意問我們工作你要怎麼審查他就是中國籍的船員"},{"start":328.058,"end":354.995,"text":"如果當緊張狀況發生的時候他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府他會聽台灣政府還聽中國政府那他那時候會幫我們運送物資嗎局長我現在要說現在我們國籍船商的台灣船員的比例目前其實已經低於20%了而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員為多你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎局長"},{"start":359.507,"end":387.543,"text":"這部分業管是交通部我們再來瞭解一下目前的運作機制還有在風險評估上那交通部業管單位他目前處理的方式是什麼我要提醒我現在沒有要去談我們現在國營事業裡面的那個罷工的事件我現在不談我不談勞動問題我現在談國安問題我覺得如果我們沒有辦法把這個事情視為一個重要的議題的時候我們就會放任包括我們的國營事業它中國籍的船員的比例一直在上升"},{"start":388.789,"end":412.102,"text":"可能他包括自己的船也包括FOC船都一直在上升這是我覺得這要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險所以國安局應該要告訴航港局甚至要告訴經濟部這個做法我們是有疑慮的這是有疑慮的現在就台灣的船員的角度來說他們也很恐慌"},{"start":413.268,"end":442.841,"text":"對"},{"start":443.717,"end":473.178,"text":"所以局長你覺得該怎麼辦對同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的事情這部分我們來看政府的運作機制裡面到底有沒有哪個部分要特別來加強那以及假如萬一發生像委員所提到的狀況的話我們又大概要怎麼樣來處理局長我認為國安局也好或我們國安單位也好應該要有一個專案針對現在海運的中國級船員的這個問題可能會帶來的各種風險我覺得要提出預警甚至要提出態度"},{"start":474.499,"end":494.498,"text":"要提出態度要告訴我們國營事業這樣做先不談勞動問題但安全上面國安上面是有高度疑慮的我們從國安的角度從供應的運輸韌性的角度來說我們不希望是這樣發生即便現在這個狀況中國集團的比例一直還在上升之中"},{"start":496.226,"end":498.087,"text":"現在這是大家擔心的事情第二個 下面這部分"},{"start":525.926,"end":545.005,"text":"市長說願意用一個專案來去處理嗎?對,跟委員說明一下,畢竟我是情報機關,那就情報機關的角度來講,可以針對這樣的一個威脅的樣態,我們來做一些分析,以及市警到底有哪些的預警的安危的狀況,要來特別提醒相關業管單位。是。"},{"start":545.706,"end":572.937,"text":"學長這是我現在希望你做的事情我們來處理因為如果我們相關的單位如果我們的國營企業如果我們的經濟部如果我們的航港局他對這事情他沒有國安風險意識啊他沒有從國安的角度去思考這個事情所以我今天是要請你們從這個角度來去提醒來去了解把這當作是一個資訊彙整風險評估以後告訴他們這是可以的還是不可以的這是我們希望的還是不希望的學長麻煩你這事情我會繼續追這件事情好不好好沒問題"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[35],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:54:05 - 12:03:40","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","id":155570,"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時53分）謝謝主席，請蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，今年5月我與幾位委員，包括鍾佳濱委員及沈伯洋委員，我們召開了一場記者會，這場記者會的內容其實就是要指出中國製起重機配備的遠端監控系統在我們港口的狀況。之前我問過交通部的航港局，航港局說這個起重機的硬體是中國製，但軟體不是中國製。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們後來有去問，好像也是用這個……"],["洪委員申翰：這是航港局的說法。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，其實這件事情也引起美國眾議院的關注，所以美國眾議院針對港口起重機的問題做了一年的調查，在9月12日剛剛公布的這篇報告中指出，中國製起重機上面有加裝額外的硬體。局長，你知不知道這個額外的硬體是什麼？你有看過這份報告嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有特別仔細看過它的內容，但我知道國際有關注這個議題。"],["洪委員申翰：這個額外的硬體其實就是後續維修時才裝起來的，看起來是一個加強的設備。在原本驗收出廠時看起來是正常的，但它是在維修時再裝上去，因此相關單位就很難發現它的問題在哪裡。當然它的說法是要方便遠端維修，但事實上它是可以將資料回傳到中國的，這也是為什麼美國眾議院的這份報告要提出這個示警。這份報告甚至發現就算是非中國製起重機，如果它用了中國製的零件，送回中國維修時也可能被加裝額外的硬體，尤其是有傳輸能力的硬體。局長，我要請問你，港口的起重機被裝上遠端監控系統，而且是中國製的，你認為這個有沒有國安的風險？"],["蔡局長明彥：有被裝的話，當然是要注意的國安風險。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這是一個大風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：但是，就像剛才你回答我說你問了相關單位，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：你問了航港局？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們說沒有連網。"],["洪委員申翰：對，航港局說沒有連網，但是就像美國眾議院說的，這個設備是可以額外再裝上去，而且具有傳輸能力。美國政府為了國家安全，現在編列了二百多億的美金，大概是六千多億臺幣，用來更換美國港口的這些起重機，他們也規定接下來要用自己本土生產的起重機，當然是因為意識到國安風險。因此，局長，我想問，相對於美國政府從國安風險的角度做這件事情，我們自己的國安單位對這個部分的敏感度有沒有提前預警？有沒有把這個當作是一個議題？還是等事件爆發了之後再找相關單位，但是回答的內容到底是不是真實的狀況？局長，你覺得我們該怎麼做比較好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個議題在上個會期也有很多委員提出指導，我記得鍾佳濱委員也向我提過這件事。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["蔡局長明彥：後續我們就是請航港局做一個全面的清查，他們已經將全面清查的資料提供給我們，應該也是與提供給委員的資料一樣，它提到的是設備沒有連網的部分。現在是針對有沒有附加的一些零組件是中共製作的產品，我想這個部分可能要再做更完整的盤點。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，關於這件事情，可不可以請你與航港局或是這些港務公司再做確認，有沒有像現在美國政府提醒的那個狀況？它一開始是沒有連網，但是透過維修、透過各種方式，後來被加裝上去的東西，至少現在美國政府的報告、美國眾議院的報告已經有這個提醒，我覺得我們應該要再積極檢視一遍。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該要的。"],["洪委員申翰：這個部分應該要做相關的調查，再弄清楚一次。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們再做一次。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來再與局長討論一件事，局長也清楚知道臺灣就是一個海島，我們有很多原物料都是走空運及海運，其中海運當然更是大宗。現在就有一個問題，幫臺灣海運的這些貨船也許因為成本考量或管理的問題而改用大量的中國籍貨船員，一旦臺海發生緊張狀況的時候，我們這些海運要怎麼運作？我們能不能控制住這些中國籍船員？他們會不會願意在兩岸遇到緊張狀況時幫臺灣運貨、工作、協助我們的物資輸送？你覺得這個會不會是一個問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：確實是一個要注意的問題。剛剛同仁也向我做過說明，我們有一個機制，對於中國船員的僱用及相關船舶公司是有一個審查的機制。"],["洪委員申翰：審查什麼？審查他對中國政府忠不忠心？還是在臺海發生緊張狀況時，他會願意為我們工作，你要怎麼審查？他就是中國籍的船員，當緊張狀況發生的時候，他會聽臺灣政府或是聽中國政府？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我知道委員的關切。"],["洪委員申翰：他會聽臺灣政府或是聽中國政府？那時候他還會幫我們運送物資嗎？局長，目前我們國籍商船的臺灣船員比例其實已經低於20%，而且現在取代的大多數都是中國籍船員，你覺得這個國安風險不用重視嗎？局長？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分的業管是交通部，我們會再了解目前的運作機制，以及在風險評估上，業管單位交通部目前處理的方式是什麼。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我要提醒、現在我沒有要談國營事業罷工的事件、現在我不談勞動問題、現在我要談國安問題。我覺得如果我們沒辦法把這件事視為重要議題，包括我們的國營事業在內，我們就會放任中國籍船員的比例一直上升，可能包括自己的船、也包括FOC船，都是一直在上升，這個應該要被辨識成一個重大的國安風險。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，同意。"],["洪委員申翰：因此，國安局應該要告訴航港局、甚至要告訴經濟部，我們對於這個作法是有疑慮的。現在就臺灣船員的角度而言，他們也感到很恐慌，因為他們一直覺得會被取代，但是我要說，就像這次美國港口的罷工事件，也影響到他們的物資運送，還好後來解決了。因此，針對這個供應鏈運輸韌性的問題，假設今天我們大部分被掐在中國籍船員的身上，我們沒有歧視，但我們確實會懷疑當問題真正發生的時候或是緊張發生的時候，他會為我們工作嗎？局長，你覺得該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：同意委員的一些觀察以及提出來的示警，針對這個部分，我們會看政府運作機制中到底有沒有哪個部分要特別加強，以及萬一發生像委員所講的狀況，我們大概要怎麼樣處理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我認為無論是國安局也好、國安單位也好，應該要有一個專案，針對現在海運中國籍船員的問題，可能會帶來的各種風險，應該要提出預警、甚至要提出態度，還要告訴我們的國營事業，先不談勞動問題，這樣做在安全上、在國安上是有高度的疑慮。從國安的角度、從供應鏈運輸韌性的角度而言，我們不希望是這樣發生，即便是現在這個狀況，中國籍船員的比例一直是在上升中，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會注意，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["洪委員申翰：我希望你能提出專案來處理這個問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我要再說一次，現在我們不談那個罷工的問題，但是相對應的兩個部分，請國安局研議全面清查我們的港口設施是否有中國製的監控設備，如何保障港口的安全。它可能不是破壞你的關鍵基礎設施，但它用一個額外的設施監控你的關鍵基礎設施，這是現在大家擔心的事情。第二個，下面這個部分，局長說願意用一個專案來處理，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：向委員說明一下，畢竟我們是情報機關，就情報機關的角度而言，可以針對這樣的威脅樣態做一些分析，以及示警到底有哪些預警的安危的狀況要特別提醒相關的業管單位。"],["洪委員申翰：是，局長，這是我現在希望你做的事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我們會處理。"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們相關的單位、如果我們的國營企業、如果我們的經濟部、如果我們的航港局，他們對這件事情沒有國安風險意識、他們沒有從國安角度去思考這件事情，所以今天我就是要請你們從這個角度去提醒、去了解，把這個當作是一個資訊，在彙整風險評估之後告訴他們，這是可以的或是不可以的、這是我們希望的或是不希望的。局長，這件事情就麻煩你了。"],["蔡局長明彥：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：我會繼續追這件事情，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，局長請回。","接下來詢答的高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的是伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":406,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","徐巧芯","林憶君","陳冠廷","黃國昌","賴士葆","羅廷瑋","洪申翰","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138301_00004"}}}