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\"財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 227.824, \"end\": 227.924, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 227.924, \"end\": 228.084, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 228.084, \"end\": 228.404, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 228.404, \"end\": 228.684, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 228.684, \"end\": 228.804, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 228.804, \"end\": 228.884, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 228.884, \"end\": 229.004, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 229.004, \"end\": 229.284, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 229.284, \"end\": 229.364, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 229.364, \"end\": 229.604, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 229.604, 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\"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 464.299, \"end\": 464.319, \"score\": 0.996}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:02,696\n主席謝謝,麻煩請我們莊部長好,我們請莊部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,305 --> 00:00:35,660\n委員好莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣\n\n3\n00:00:38,106 --> 00:01:00,954\n跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款\n\n4\n00:01:01,474 --> 00:01:23,495\n還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎\n\n5\n00:01:26,196 --> 00:01:33,621\n鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是\n\n6\n00:01:35,014 --> 00:01:56,216\n沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?\n\n7\n00:01:58,906 --> 00:02:24,114\n所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法\n\n8\n00:02:25,543 --> 00:02:47,627\n你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分\n\n9\n00:02:53,956 --> 00:03:00,248\n2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?\n\n10\n00:03:05,188 --> 00:03:22,977\n部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊\n\n11\n00:03:23,897 --> 00:03:44,830\n那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本\n\n12\n00:03:47,824 --> 00:04:14,015\n財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的\n\n13\n00:04:15,441 --> 00:04:41,705\n部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款\n\n14\n00:04:43,027 --> 00:04:58,601\n新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平\n\n15\n00:04:59,582 --> 00:05:26,588\n那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本\n\n16\n00:05:28,015 --> 00:05:52,312\n那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論\n\n17\n00:05:55,965 --> 00:06:16,986\n陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了\n\n18\n00:06:18,292 --> 00:06:24,014\n賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長\n\n19\n00:06:36,817 --> 00:07:02,516\n財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長\n\n20\n00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:25,741\n跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本\n\n21\n00:07:27,182 --> 00:07:44,319\n財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t2696\t主席謝謝,麻煩請我們莊部長好,我們請莊部長\n10305\t35660\t委員好 莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣\n38106\t60954\t跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款\n61474\t83495\t還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎\n86196\t93621\t鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是\n95014\t116216\t沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?\n118906\t144114\t所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法\n145543\t167627\t你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分\n173956\t180248\t2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?\n185188\t202977\t部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊\n203897\t224830\t那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本\n227824\t254015\t財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的\n255441\t281705\t部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款\n283027\t298601\t新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平\n299582\t326588\t那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本\n328015\t352312\t那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論\n355965\t376986\t陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了\n378292\t384014\t賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長\n396817\t422516\t財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長\n423716\t445741\t跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本\n447182\t464319\t財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有\n","txt":"主席謝謝,麻煩請我們莊部長好,我們請莊部長\n委員好 莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣\n跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款\n還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎\n鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是\n沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?\n所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法\n你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分\n2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?\n部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊\n那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本\n財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的\n部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款\n新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平\n那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本\n那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論\n陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了\n賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長\n財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長\n跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本\n財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:02.696\n主席謝謝,麻煩請我們莊部長好,我們請莊部長\n\n00:10.305 --> 00:35.660\n委員好莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣\n\n00:38.106 --> 01:00.954\n跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款\n\n01:01.474 --> 01:23.495\n還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎\n\n01:26.196 --> 01:33.621\n鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是\n\n01:35.014 --> 01:56.216\n沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?\n\n01:58.906 --> 02:24.114\n所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法\n\n02:25.543 --> 02:47.627\n你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分\n\n02:53.956 --> 03:00.248\n2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?\n\n03:05.188 --> 03:22.977\n部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊\n\n03:23.897 --> 03:44.830\n那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本\n\n03:47.824 --> 04:14.015\n財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的\n\n04:15.441 --> 04:41.705\n部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款\n\n04:43.027 --> 04:58.601\n新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平\n\n04:59.582 --> 05:26.588\n那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本\n\n05:28.015 --> 05:52.312\n那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論\n\n05:55.965 --> 06:16.986\n陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了\n\n06:18.292 --> 06:24.014\n賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長\n\n06:36.817 --> 07:02.516\n財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長\n\n07:03.716 --> 07:25.741\n跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本\n\n07:27.182 --> 07:44.319\n財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":2.696,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請我們莊部長好,我們請莊部長"},{"start":10.305,"end":35.66,"text":"委員好 莊部長好時間有限直接切入重點當然很多的委員都一直很關心在這個會期要討論財務收支劃分法那佐隆泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然講是說現行的版本就是最棒的版本換言之如果說假設我們接下來進入到實質的這個竹條審查的部分的話財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本是不是這樣"},{"start":38.106,"end":60.954,"text":"跟委員報告財化法這個事情25年沒有修正您就知道它的一個困難度在這邊那卓院長意思就是說如果沒有討論出一個第一個大家有共識而且是一個非常完善的一個版本的話那以現行的版本來做執行以現行的法條來做執行第一個我們透過財化法然後通過統籌分配稅款一般性補助款"},{"start":61.474,"end":83.495,"text":"還有計劃型的補助館來推動第一個挹注地方的財政同時也讓重大建設能夠在跨區域的來做推動我想這個部分主要是這樣子這大家都知道啊現行法令不就這樣做但是重點在於是說就是沒有做到嘛所以才會25年來沒有修正來部長我先請教卓榮泰院長講是說現行的版本是最棒的版本你認同嗎"},{"start":86.196,"end":93.621,"text":"鐵板一塊都不動了現行的版本最棒版本它最高級喔我們學英文知道嘛比較級最高級最高級代表就是"},{"start":95.014,"end":116.216,"text":"沒有其他比它更高了。你認同這句話嗎?第一個在沒有更完善的版本提出之前現行的版本在行政院在推動上是最有把握的我們現在就是這也是過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多的版本以及我們不管是黨團不管是委員版本就是認為是說希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嗎?"},{"start":118.906,"end":144.114,"text":"所以現在部長所以兩個部分第一看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話我沒有不認同啊那你認同第一個我跟委員剛剛報告過就是說在沒有更完善更好合理的版本我們現在就是要找出更好更完善嘛過去25年您剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財化法"},{"start":145.543,"end":167.627,"text":"你知道二十五年五次的時候就已經討論過非常多但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成包括當時時任的台南市長賴清德現在的賴總統2012年他講說不要從台北看天下不要獨厚台北各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的媽媽嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒然後要給他足夠的養分"},{"start":173.956,"end":180.248,"text":"2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財化法那到現在勒?"},{"start":185.188,"end":202.977,"text":"部長我現在只是比較明確的確定就是說我們現在因為各黨團也都針對說實務的狀況以及縣市來開公聽會因為我們的召委員很負責任嘛開了兩次公聽會嘛那各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了所以說我相信也會有在精進跟討論空間不是鐵板一塊"},{"start":203.897,"end":224.83,"text":"那一樣的道理現在鐵板一塊是誰是財政部委是行政院呢因為有黨團的版本有委員的版本但是自始至終千呼萬喚使不出來就是財政院就是行政院的版本所以我們現在想要問的是當接下來進入到竹條審查財化法修法的時候行政院會不會有版本"},{"start":227.824,"end":254.015,"text":"財政部其實也一直在找第一個收集地方政府的意見我們也開會啊所以不是說只有您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見是甚至專家學者的意見第一個大家的爭取的指標是不一樣的因為針對各自有利的對不對那第二個部分就是說你要大量的中央釋出裁員的話事權要不要重新劃分這個東西事實上是牽涉的層面是很廣的"},{"start":255.441,"end":281.705,"text":"部長,就是因為簽這個審券廣,你一直講,我想說成功的人找方法,失敗的人找藉口啊你一直在講一堆藉口,我們也知道這些問題啊,你講的我不會不知道本席身為區域的民意代表,我很清楚就像我們一直講到是說六都裡面新北市,我們就很委屈啊如果說這要講六都來講,財化法的這個分配稅款"},{"start":283.027,"end":298.601,"text":"新北市你沒有說是最後一名可是如果說除以400萬的人口除以我們的土地面積我們真的是最後啊我們真的是名落孫山啊那一樣的道理我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多我們只要求公平"},{"start":299.582,"end":326.588,"text":"那一樣嘛拉回來本期現在只要想講的這是一個觀念問題我想今天那麼多我們的金融相關的負責人在這邊要看的是部長的態度啊部長有沒有肩膀有沒有態度就是說當我們現在一直講是說問題在這邊可是我們真的要面對了25年沒有修了大家也認為是說與時近近甚至財政部講是說我們要討論一個符合時宜可長可久的版本"},{"start":328.015,"end":352.312,"text":"那沒有最好只有更好啊那在沒有最好只有更好的情況下我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊當我們討論到財化法的修法的時候財政部到底拿不拿得出版本我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎8月9月都在討論啊所以當委員會就可能陳玉珍召委或是我們另外召委排修法的時候財政部一定會有版本出來一起討論"},{"start":355.965,"end":376.986,"text":"陳委員陳昭委下個禮拜就要排財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊因為我們已經告訴為什麼會沒有版本的原因我們的報告也已經提給財委會啦我們的報告的分析報告非常清楚啊部長如果說是這樣的態度的話那我就覺得是說你過去這25年白混了"},{"start":378.292,"end":384.014,"text":"賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法白混了說實在話這還要解釋是不是部長"},{"start":396.817,"end":422.516,"text":"財政部長,是不是...身在其位謀其政為什麼今天我會特別...我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨啊但是因為你今天是財政部長所以我當然會尖銳的問你就是因為財政部長在這一刻你就要負起相關的責任25年來沒有還是你的想法就是說反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久我就拖過啦換言等我安全下狀的時候這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長"},{"start":423.716,"end":445.741,"text":"跟委員報告負責任的話就是這樣的做法嗎?因為提出好的版本才是負責任的做法所以我們就是因為提出好的版本才是所以現在我們才在講說你有沒有版本嗎?就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜可長可久的版本所以你們要拿出辦法如果拿不出辦法就變成是我們有我們委員其他的版本"},{"start":447.182,"end":464.319,"text":"財政部你就是一昧的阻擋你就是不想進步不想改革那沒有問題啊就讓國人看吧我們一直都在做是謝謝委員是好謝謝謝謝孟楷那接著我們請那個鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員那還有"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[20],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:38:26 - 12:46:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「證券交易稅條例」7案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(六)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(七)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":155599,"gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時38分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請莊部長。"],["主席：好，我們請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：莊部長好。時間有限，我直接切入重點，當然很多委員都很關心在這個會期要討論財政收支劃分法，卓榮泰院長昨天在質詢的時候居然說現行的版本就是最棒的版本，換言之，假設我們接下來進入實質逐條審查的部分，財政部這邊也不會提出任何對應修改版本，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法25年沒有修正，您就知道它的困難度在這邊，卓院長的意思就是如果沒有討論出一個大家有共識，而且是一個非常完善的版本的話，以現行的版本來執行，以現行的法條來執行。第一個，我們透過財劃法、中央統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款，還有計畫型補助款來推動，挹注地方的財政，同時也讓重大建設能夠跨區域的推動，我想這個部分主要是這樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：這大家都知道啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現行法令不就是這樣做？但重點在於就是沒有做到嘛！所以才會25年沒有修正。","來，部長，我先請教，卓榮泰院長說現行的版本是最棒的版本，你認同嗎？鐵板一塊都不動了，現行的版本是最棒的版本！它是最高級喔！我們學英文都知道有比較級、最高級，最高級代表的就是沒有其他比它更高了。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，昨天院長也有提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：你認同這句話嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，在沒有更完善的版本提出之前，現行版本在行政院的推動上是最有把握，我想院長也有這樣講。"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是從過去到現在委員為什麼有那麼多版本，以及不管是黨團、不管是委員版本，就是認為希望能夠尋求找出一個更好的版本嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們也正在討論啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，部長，兩個部分，第一，看起來你是不認同卓院長這句話？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有不認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你認同？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我剛剛跟委員報告過，就是在沒有更完善、更好、合理的版本的狀況下，現行版本還是最好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們現在就是要找出更完善的嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，所以我們財政部在開會……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛剛也提到過去25年有多少民意代表、政治人物或是政黨領袖有提出要修財劃法。"],["莊部長翠雲：25年5次的時候就已經討論非常多。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常多嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是為什麼都沒有能夠修法完成？"],["洪委員孟楷：包括當時時任臺南市長的賴清德──現在的賴總統，2012年他說不要從臺北看天下，不要獨厚臺北，各縣市就像嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒，媽媽看著嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒，要給他足夠的養分。2017年、18年賴清德行政院長也說要修財劃法，到現在呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我現在只是比較明確的確定，因為各黨團也都針對實務狀況以及縣市來開公聽會，我們的召委也很負責任開了兩次公聽會，各縣市的意見我們也聽取到了，所以我相信也會有再精進跟討論的空間，不是鐵板一塊！一樣的道理，現在鐵板一塊是誰？是財政部耶！是行政院耶！因為有黨團的版本、有委員的版本，但是自始至終千呼萬喚始不出來的就是財政部、行政院的版本。所以我們現在想要問的是，當接下來進入逐條審查財劃法修法的時候，行政院會不會有版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財政部一直在蒐集地方政府的意見，我們也開會，而您在公聽會的時候也聽過大家的意見，甚至是專家學者的意見。第一個，大家爭取的指標是不一樣的，因為是針對各自有利的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個部分就是要大量讓中央釋出財源的話，事權要不要重新劃分？這個東西事實上牽涉的層面是很廣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，就是因為牽涉的層面廣，你一直講，我就會想：成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口！你一直在講一堆藉口，我們也知道這些問題啊，你講的我不會不知道，本席身為區域的民意代表，我很清楚。就像我們一直講六都裡面的新北市，我們就很委屈啊！如果說真的要以六都來講財劃法的分配稅款，新北市沒有說是最後一名，可是如果除以400萬的人口、除以我們的土地面積，我們真的是最後啊！我們真的是名落孫山啊！一樣的道理，我們也沒有說新北市一定就是要多，我們只要求公平。一樣嘛！拉回來，本席現在想講的這是一個觀念問題，我想今天那麼多金融相關負責人在這邊，要看的是部長的態度啊！部長有沒有肩膀、有沒有態度；也就是說，當我們現在一直說問題在這邊，可是我們真的要面對了，25年沒有修了，大家也認為是與時俱進，甚至財政部說我們要討論一個符合時宜、可長可久的版本，沒有最好，只有更好啊！在沒有最好、只有更好的情況下，我們還是醜媳婦要見公婆啊！當我們討論到財劃法修法的時候，財政部到底拿不拿得出版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們現在不是正在開會已經討論了嗎？8月、9月都在討論啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以當委員會陳玉珍委召委或是另外的召委排修法的時候，財政部一定會有版本出來，一起討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，陳召委下個禮拜就要排。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部在下個禮拜不會有版本啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不會有版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為我們已經說明為什麼沒有版本的原因，我們的報告也已經提給財委會，我們的分析報告非常清楚啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，如果是這樣的態度，我就覺得你過去這25年白混了，賴清德總統2017年、2018年擔任行政院長的時候信誓旦旦說要修法，白混了！說實在話……"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼叫白混了？我不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：這還要解釋是不是？這還要解釋是不是？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["主席：部長，是不是提書面給洪孟楷委員？"],["洪委員孟楷：身在其位謀其政。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你沒有任何的私人恩怨，但因為你今天是財政部長，所以我當然會尖銳的問你，就是因為財政部長在這一刻就要負起相關的責任。25年來沒有，還是你的想法就是反正我不知道我的任期可以做多久，我就拖過，反正等我安全下莊的時候，這一個燙手山芋留給下一個財政部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，負責任的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是這樣的作法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：提出好的版本才是負責任的作法。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為提出好的版本才是，所以現在我們才會問你有沒有版本，就是現在的法令已經不合時宜了，我們希望能夠有一個符合時宜、可長可久的版本。"],["主席：洪孟楷委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們要拿出辦法，如果拿不出辦法，就變成我們委員有其他版本，財政部就是一味阻擋，你就是不想進步、不想改革，那沒有問題啊！就讓國人看吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一直都在做。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝孟楷。","接著我們請鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員。","再來是張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員。","接著鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-2","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","顏寬恒","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)行政院函\n請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交\n易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員邱志偉等19\n人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138501_00004"}}}