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\"end\": 361.488, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 361.488, \"end\": 361.588, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 361.588, \"end\": 361.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,698 --> 00:00:14,060\n我先問一下我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼\n\n2\n00:00:33,685 --> 00:01:02,548\n這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休那一方面就是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口嘛解決就是一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友\n\n3\n00:01:03,628 --> 00:01:32,831\n65岁了那他希望说跟教育局或学校来协商可以让他不要65岁退休结果教育局不敢决定其实教育局他算是资方以劳资来讲的话对不对他不敢决定他就发文问劳动部劳动部说跟劳动部没关系叫教育局去问人事行政总处人事行政总处就说不行不行因为我们要实施公有的精简制度所以不可以\n\n4\n00:01:34,212 --> 00:02:00,749\n我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃好你說預缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況\n\n5\n00:02:02,910 --> 00:02:17,093\n阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是\n\n6\n00:02:18,942 --> 00:02:44,114\n這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事經證總處啦再請他韓式把學校需求告訴他\n\n7\n00:02:45,094 --> 00:02:57,385\n那我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休\n\n8\n00:02:59,091 --> 00:03:20,743\n是謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的若實這個勞基法文4條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬\n\n9\n00:03:21,423 --> 00:03:47,154\n有嗎?確定了嗎?什麼時候會到處展開?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有人對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:49,915 --> 00:04:11,417\n當我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧\n\n11\n00:04:12,718 --> 00:04:32,950\n你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎沒有嗎是委員我們有正在我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是有機會出城是不是是是是那大概什麼時候有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概三年後\n\n12\n00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:57,919\n我們大概什麼時候我們來積極瞭解一下好不好沒有大概沒有啦不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快可不可以因為我們盡量積極來促成大概大概多久大概我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不我的意思是說這我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照拉所以是行政院在卡\n\n13\n00:04:58,769 --> 00:05:15,736\n不不這不是卡因為他必須要有一個通盤我知道我知道我知道我知道現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嗎那勞動部你直接跟你是說你有跟人總溝通嗎希望他能夠做出政府機關做出示範嗎我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦\n\n14\n00:05:16,216 --> 00:05:37,796\n比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是\n\n15\n00:05:38,837 --> 00:06:01,608\n大量目標都是第一個希望解決勞動力的問題第二個希望高齡就業人口依他們的意願讓他們可以延長退休時間那我會希望說政府可以做起帶頭的作用而第二個就是不要有年齡歧視因為我們各項調查都顯示臺灣年齡歧視很嚴重那政府不要做出有年齡歧視的問題我覺得會健全我們的勞動市場好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11698\t14060\t我先問一下我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼\n33685\t62548\t這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休那一方面就是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口嘛解決就是一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友\n63628\t92831\t65岁了那他希望说跟教育局或学校来协商可以让他不要65岁退休结果教育局不敢决定其实教育局他算是资方以劳资来讲的话对不对他不敢决定他就发文问劳动部劳动部说跟劳动部没关系叫教育局去问人事行政总处人事行政总处就说不行不行因为我们要实施公有的精简制度所以不可以\n94212\t120749\t我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃好你說預缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況\n122910\t137093\t阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是\n138942\t164114\t這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事經證總處啦再請他韓式把學校需求告訴他\n165094\t177385\t那我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休\n179091\t200743\t是謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的若實這個勞基法文4條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬\n201423\t227154\t有嗎?確定了嗎?什麼時候會到處展開?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有人對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎?\n229915\t251417\t當我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧\n252718\t272950\t你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎沒有嗎是委員我們有正在我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是有機會出城是不是是是是那大概什麼時候有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概三年後\n273690\t297919\t我們大概什麼時候我們來積極瞭解一下好不好沒有大概沒有啦不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快可不可以因為我們盡量積極來促成大概大概多久大概我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不我的意思是說這我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照拉所以是行政院在卡\n298769\t315736\t不不這不是卡因為他必須要有一個通盤我知道我知道我知道我知道現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嗎那勞動部你直接跟你是說你有跟人總溝通嗎希望他能夠做出政府機關做出示範嗎我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦\n316216\t337796\t比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是\n338837\t361608\t大量目標都是第一個希望解決勞動力的問題第二個希望高齡就業人口依他們的意願讓他們可以延長退休時間那我會希望說政府可以做起帶頭的作用而第二個就是不要有年齡歧視因為我們各項調查都顯示臺灣年齡歧視很嚴重那政府不要做出有年齡歧視的問題我覺得會健全我們的勞動市場好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"我先問一下我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼\n這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休那一方面就是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口嘛解決就是一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友\n65岁了那他希望说跟教育局或学校来协商可以让他不要65岁退休结果教育局不敢决定其实教育局他算是资方以劳资来讲的话对不对他不敢决定他就发文问劳动部劳动部说跟劳动部没关系叫教育局去问人事行政总处人事行政总处就说不行不行因为我们要实施公有的精简制度所以不可以\n我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃好你說預缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況\n阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是\n這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事經證總處啦再請他韓式把學校需求告訴他\n那我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休\n是謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的若實這個勞基法文4條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬\n有嗎?確定了嗎?什麼時候會到處展開?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有人對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎?\n當我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧\n你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎沒有嗎是委員我們有正在我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是有機會出城是不是是是是那大概什麼時候有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概三年後\n我們大概什麼時候我們來積極瞭解一下好不好沒有大概沒有啦不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快可不可以因為我們盡量積極來促成大概大概多久大概我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不我的意思是說這我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照拉所以是行政院在卡\n不不這不是卡因為他必須要有一個通盤我知道我知道我知道我知道現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嗎那勞動部你直接跟你是說你有跟人總溝通嗎希望他能夠做出政府機關做出示範嗎我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦\n比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是\n大量目標都是第一個希望解決勞動力的問題第二個希望高齡就業人口依他們的意願讓他們可以延長退休時間那我會希望說政府可以做起帶頭的作用而第二個就是不要有年齡歧視因為我們各項調查都顯示臺灣年齡歧視很嚴重那政府不要做出有年齡歧視的問題我覺得會健全我們的勞動市場好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.698 --> 00:14.060\n我先問一下我們之前把那個勞基法第54條有關於65歲強制退休的聽話板打開了嘛就是說65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調看看要不要退休當初的用意是什麼\n\n00:33.685 --> 01:02.548\n這是立法院委員的提案那麼當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法所以我們也非常支持我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休那一方面就是說讓勞工到65歲以上如果他還可以繼續工作的話也可以讓他繼續工作嘛也增加了社會的勞動人口嘛解決就是一些勞動的問題但我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情我跟部長講一個狀況我們新北市有一個學校的工友\n\n01:03.628 --> 01:32.831\n65岁了那他希望说跟教育局或学校来协商可以让他不要65岁退休结果教育局不敢决定其实教育局他算是资方以劳资来讲的话对不对他不敢决定他就发文问劳动部劳动部说跟劳动部没关系叫教育局去问人事行政总处人事行政总处就说不行不行因为我们要实施公有的精简制度所以不可以\n\n01:34.212 --> 02:00.749\n我是不太懂說公有的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩個有什麼相關啊但因為學校非常需要公有之前是人事行政總局他因為實施公有精簡計劃好你說預缺不補這個我們都了解可是現在是公有要延長退休的時間這個是第一個這兩回事啊第二個先因為人事行政總局總處實施這種公有精簡導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況第一個狀況\n\n02:02.910 --> 02:17.093\n阿公有的工作還是要有人做阿他平常要維修這個設備阿修剪花草阿遞送公文阿最後這些工作誰來做老師來做因為精簡公有了嘛就影響到老師教學嘛阿第二件事情是\n\n02:18.942 --> 02:44.114\n這個因為還有人要做所以學校怎麼樣學校就拿預算去外包給一般的人來做公有要做的工作那不是一樣的意思你有節省公帑嗎你沒有節省公帑而且人家公有又15歲想要延長卻不可以基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬啦那教育局新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事經證總處啦再請他韓式把學校需求告訴他\n\n02:45.094 --> 02:57.385\n那我也希望說勞動部可以本於剛剛我們講的那個法案修法之後這個利益良善的部分也可以跟人事總署講一下這個為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休\n\n02:59.091 --> 03:20.743\n是謝謝委員其實這個確實您講的沒有錯就是說我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動這樣的改變這樣的就是帶頭做這樣的若實這個勞基法文4條修正案的這樣的努力然後那我知道是人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論就是關於這部分也要來放寬\n\n03:21.423 --> 03:47.154\n有嗎?確定了嗎?什麼時候會到處展開?當然可是這不是我的職權啦所以我瞭解是對人種對人事總署我們也表達過這樣的希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有人對的這樣子的不能講的齁我們這個東西利益良善但是我們法案並沒有說他一定可以延長他必須要先勞資協調那勞資協調那你要看資方的態度嗎?\n\n03:49.915 --> 04:11.417\n當我們鼓勵資方說只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業我們鼓勵嘛我們鼓勵資方做這個事結果身為公部門的人事警政總署說不好意思不可以公有呢你給我強制退休那民間企業看到會怎樣哎呀反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊那我是一個企業我不讓他們繼續就業還好吧剛好而已吧\n\n04:12.718 --> 04:32.950\n你今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情你有做到我們的這個對高齡的就業人口友善的這樣一個環境嗎沒有嗎是委員我們有正在我們也有努力來跟人種來溝通有跟他們溝通是不是有機會出城是不是是是是那大概什麼時候有機會出城但是可能是牛年馬月大概三年後\n\n04:33.690 --> 04:57.919\n我們大概什麼時候我們來積極瞭解一下好不好沒有大概沒有啦不然我今天進來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛您去跟人種可不可以盡快可不可以因為我們盡量積極來促成大概大概多久大概我也是真的不知道我能決定的是一個月促成半年促成還是一年促成這等院核定這等行政院核定正在等院核定是不是不不不我的意思是說這我知道人種正在跟行政院正在討論照拉所以是行政院在卡\n\n04:58.769 --> 05:15.736\n不不這不是卡因為他必須要有一個通盤我知道我知道我知道我知道現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嗎那勞動部你直接跟你是說你有跟人總溝通嗎希望他能夠做出政府機關做出示範嗎我們希望能夠促成公部門啦其實也不是只有您教育局這種例子啦\n\n05:16.216 --> 05:37.796\n比如說像我們公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員他們有延退的這樣的想法然後覺得他們還能貢獻那也事實上機關也需要因為有人力斷層所以這樣的話我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家我們能夠來合一來協商我想說大家的目標都是\n\n05:38.837 --> 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12:56:36","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月16日及17日二天一次會】）","id":155602,"gazette":{"lineno":1283,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時50分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我想問一下，我們之前把勞基法第五十四條有關於65歲強制退休的天花板打開了，就是65歲之後可以勞資雙方協調，看看要不要退休，當初的用意是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這是立法院委員的提案，當然我們也是非常樂見這樣的修法，所以我們也非常支持，我們希望能夠讓雙方合意來延長退休。"],["葉委員元之：一方面是65歲以上的勞工，如果還可以繼續工作也可以讓他繼續工作，也增加了社會的勞動人口，解決一些勞動的問題。我覺得政府應該要主動來鼓勵這個事情，我跟部長講一個狀況，新北市有一個學校的工友65歲了，他希望跟教育局或學校來協商可以讓他不要65歲退休，結果教育局不敢決定。其實教育局算是資方嘛，以勞資來講的話，他不敢決定，他就發文問勞動部，勞動部說跟勞動部沒關係，叫教育局去問人事行政總處，人事行政總處說不行，因為我們要實施工友的精簡制度，所以不可以。我是不太懂工友的精簡制度跟延後退休這兩者有什麼相關，但因為學校非常需要工友，之前是人事行政總處實施工友精簡計畫，如果是遇缺不補，我們都了解，可是現在是工友要延長退休的時間，這是兩回事；再者，因為人事行政總處首度實施工友精簡，導致兩個非常嚴重的狀況，第一個狀況是工友的工作還是要有人做，平常要維修設備、修剪花草、遞送公文，最後這些工作誰來做？老師來做！因為精簡工友就影響到老師教學。第二件事情，因為還是要有人做，所以學校就拿預算外包給一般的人來做工友要做的工作，那不是一樣的意思？這樣有節省公帑嗎？並沒有節省公帑，而且人家工友65歲想要延長退休卻不可以。基本上我覺得這個非常荒謬，新北市教育局後來又再發文給人事行政總處，再請他們函釋，把學校需求告訴他們，我也希望勞動部可以本於剛剛我們所講的，在法案修法之後，對於立意良善的部分也可以跟人事總處講一下，為什麼要卡人家工友延長退休？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員，確實您講的沒有錯，我們也希望公部門能夠帶頭來帶動落實勞基法第五十四條修正案的努力，我知道人總有跟行政院我們現在正在討論，就是關於這部分也要來放寬。"],["葉委員元之：有嗎？確定了？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候會告訴大家？"],["何部長佩珊：可是這不是我的職權啦，所以我了解……"],["葉委員元之：是，因為今天是你來嘛！你知道了就回答一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我們對人事總處也表達過，希望能夠積極促成公部門也能有……"],["葉委員元之：對，部長講的就是這個立意良善，但是法案並沒有說一定可以延長，必須要先勞資協調。"],["何部長佩珊：對、對。"],["葉委員元之：那勞資協調，你要看資方的態度，當然我們鼓勵資方只要有高齡的人口願意繼續就業，我們也鼓勵嘛，我們要鼓勵資方做這個事，結果身為公部門的人事行政總處說：不好意思，不可以！工友給我強制退休！那民間企業看到會怎樣？反正我們行政機關也沒有鼓勵高齡人口繼續就業啊，那作為民間企業不讓員工繼續就業還好吧，剛好而已嘛！今天連政府都不帶頭做這個事情，你有做到對高齡就業人口友善環境嗎？沒有嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們有努力跟人總溝通。"],["葉委員元之：有跟他們溝通，有機會促成是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候？還是有機會促成，但是可能是牛年馬月，大概三年後，會這樣嗎？大概什麼時候？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來積極了解一下。"],["葉委員元之：部長，其實今天來這邊質詢就是跟您說嘛，您去跟人總說可不可以儘快？"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量積極來促成。"],["葉委員元之：大概多久？積極是多久？是一個月促成、半年促成還是一年促成？"],["何部長佩珊：這要等院核定。"],["葉委員元之：正在等院核定是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：不、不、不，我的意思是我知道人總跟行政院正在討論中。"],["葉委員元之：所以是行政院在卡？"],["何部長佩珊：不、不，這不是卡，因為它必須要有一個通盤計畫。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我知道，現在是人總直接回新北市說不行嘛，部長你是說你有跟人總溝通，希望政府機關做出示範嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：我們希望能夠促成公部門啦，其實也不是只有教育局這種例子，比如公部門機關裡面有很多這樣的人員，他們有延退的想法，覺得他們還能貢獻，事實上機關也需要，因為有人力斷層，所以這樣的話，我們很希望機關能夠跟當事人大家能夠來合意、來協商，也希望人總來促成。"],["葉委員元之：大家的目標都是第一個希望解決勞動力的問題，第二個希望高齡就業人口依他們的意願讓他們可以延長退休時間，我也希望政府可以做起帶頭的作用。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：第二個就是不要有年齡歧視，因為我們各項調查都顯示臺灣年齡歧視很嚴重，政府不要有年齡歧視的問題，這樣會健全我們的勞動市場。"],["何部長佩珊：對，就是要改變這個文化。謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","林國成","羅智強","吳春城","邱若華","牛煦庭","蔡易餘","葉元之","楊曜","劉建國","麥玉珍"],"page_start":265,"meetingDate":["2024-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00005"}}}