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00:01:04,006\n有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎\n\n4\n00:01:05,234 --> 00:01:30,974\n因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點\n\n5\n00:01:32,962 --> 00:01:58,824\n所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題\n\n6\n00:02:00,365 --> 00:02:28,092\n所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準\n\n7\n00:02:28,672 --> 00:02:54,477\n我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解\n\n8\n00:02:55,517 --> 00:03:10,309\n這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況\n\n9\n00:03:12,310 --> 00:03:30,653\n比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎\n\n10\n00:03:32,195 --> 00:03:34,597\n這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任\n\n11\n00:03:51,733 --> 00:03:59,536\n阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是\n\n12\n00:04:10,859 --> 00:04:37,951\n我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本\n\n13\n00:04:38,744 --> 00:04:58,840\n這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?\n\n14\n00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:24,573\n我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣\n\n15\n00:05:25,313 --> 00:05:51,661\n鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們\n\n16\n00:05:53,562 --> 00:06:12,727\n我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n66\t447\t請聽委員質詢謝謝主席 郭部長有請請郭部長\n18308\t36721\t委員好部長午安辛苦了這我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性\n37361\t64006\t有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎\n65234\t90974\t因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點\n92962\t118824\t所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題\n120365\t148092\t所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準\n148672\t174477\t我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解\n175517\t190309\t這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況\n192310\t210653\t比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎\n212195\t214597\t這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任\n231733\t239536\t阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是\n250859\t277951\t我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本\n278744\t298840\t這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?\n300240\t324573\t我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣\n325313\t351661\t鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們\n353562\t372727\t我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員\n","txt":"請聽委員質詢謝謝主席 郭部長有請請郭部長\n委員好部長午安辛苦了這我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性\n有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎\n因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點\n所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題\n所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準\n我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解\n這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況\n比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎\n這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任\n阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是\n我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本\n這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?\n我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣\n鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們\n我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.066 --> 00:00.447\n請聽委員質詢謝謝主席郭部長有請請郭部長\n\n00:18.308 --> 00:36.721\n委員好部長午安辛苦了這我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性\n\n00:37.361 --> 01:04.006\n有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎\n\n01:05.234 --> 01:30.974\n因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點\n\n01:32.962 --> 01:58.824\n所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題\n\n02:00.365 --> 02:28.092\n所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準\n\n02:28.672 --> 02:54.477\n我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解\n\n02:55.517 --> 03:10.309\n這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況\n\n03:12.310 --> 03:30.653\n比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎\n\n03:32.195 --> 03:34.597\n這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任\n\n03:51.733 --> 03:59.536\n阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是\n\n04:10.859 --> 04:37.951\n我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本\n\n04:38.744 --> 04:58.840\n這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?\n\n05:00.240 --> 05:24.573\n我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣\n\n05:25.313 --> 05:51.661\n鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們\n\n05:53.562 --> 06:12.727\n我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.066,"end":0.447,"text":"請聽委員質詢謝謝主席 郭部長有請請郭部長"},{"start":18.308,"end":36.721,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了這我先在這邊讚美你一下之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題你答應說本席要來這個現場會堪你也在非會期的時候說到做到這我先讚美你一下你有說到做到第二個其實我跟大部分在黨委員不見得一樣其實我有的時候蠻欣賞部長心直口快的個性"},{"start":37.361,"end":64.006,"text":"有的時候在討論一些重大的議題的時候你就直接講問題在哪裡解方可能有困難比如說你講供電不足要蓋個電廠到處都反對對不對直接把問題攤開來講有些時候反而是比較好的做法因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心那就不用去談問題的解方了那你這個心直口快的個性呢加上這當然我就是要問啊這個菲律賓的這個事情啊你今天早上說這是草率發言真的是草率發言嗎"},{"start":65.234,"end":90.974,"text":"因為大家希望我這麼講大家希望你這麼講喔所有的媒體都希望我這樣講蛤那我就跟大家不一樣我要問部長的是喔在這你這個金句連發也真的是嚇我一跳我要問的是喔我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系有沒有針對啊就跨國的電網串聯有任何的研究計畫我想這一個在所有的這個論壇上面都有討論到這一點"},{"start":92.962,"end":118.824,"text":"所以你可以看得出來像澳洲新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠的這個4300公里的電拉到新加坡所以新加坡他自己本身不需要這樣那麼他是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網大家互相support所以他不只是有國家內部的研究計畫他甚至都有世界國際合作格局高度的研究計畫做製程對不對民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣一個問題"},{"start":120.365,"end":148.092,"text":"所以我就覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊我們現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫?沒有是他等著我提出啦等著你提出喔?真的還假的這個我們因為都在論壇裡面討論過只是在論壇裡面做討論所以我說草率發言也就是說我沒有按照過去大家習慣的有上位計畫然後有實施計畫然後確定了以後才來發布這件事情所以我對這樣子的不精準"},{"start":148.672,"end":174.477,"text":"我感到非常的抱歉也願意跟大家道歉部長因為我的發言不精準我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子壓力的原因因為台灣的工電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦那你提出各種方法也是盡你所能其實我覺得沒有什麼關係如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話那你提出來確實是不太妥但是值得來做一下研究跟了解"},{"start":175.517,"end":190.309,"text":"這第一個但我也要提醒針對這樣子一個概念的幾個提醒第一個他一定要有強而有力的上位計畫而且不是只是我們國內的計畫要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景這其一第二這樣子的國際合作的計畫要考量實務上的狀況"},{"start":192.31,"end":210.653,"text":"比如說在以前比如說全球化的時代大家說我們電網來串聯大家一起來找相對把這個成本降下來也讓各國的供電提升的穩定度上升這方向是正確但是喔部長菲律賓真的以我們對他們國內跟地緣政治這個現在風險的評估他真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎"},{"start":212.195,"end":214.597,"text":"這個計畫不是本來美國日本跟菲律賓的這個領導他們確定的一個旅送經濟走廊這樣的一個計畫那這裡面他們有各個分責的這個責任"},{"start":231.733,"end":239.536,"text":"阿我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫你又說沒有阿可是聽起來這樣是有阿這個不是我的上位阿他是那個我意思說有沒有一個有一個國際合作的計畫當成你做這樣做這樣的那是美日飛的計畫啦不是我們的計畫阿我們有沒有被納在裡面跟台灣沒有在裡面阿台灣沒有在裡面喔對對對那個是美日飛的計畫阿是"},{"start":250.859,"end":277.951,"text":"我了解以後我去跟他們溝通啦說這裡面有一些是不是可以讓台灣參與的啦所以它是一個獨立的計畫那經過今天這一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後那我們到底要不要繼續做這個事我會開始齁開論壇繼續討論繼續討論好這第一個是要有明確的計畫第二個我要講的就是你的計畫裡面它要有一定的透明度跟知情權也就是說我現在在做這件事我要有所本"},{"start":278.744,"end":298.84,"text":"這樣你才不會變成草率發言,對不對?然後這樣你就要適時的來跟人民大眾來做溝通,因為它是一個重大的政策知情權是很重要,要不然你看最近比如說聯想,比如雲報的投資,也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫,對不對?但是被連結的時候你頭就很痛了嘛,對不對?因為你沒有辦法講出背後的一套比如說我有另外一個計畫,然後它是什麼?"},{"start":300.24,"end":324.573,"text":"我相信他一定不是去開發這個我們要那個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣的一個計畫如果有這樣的一個計畫啦他的資訊的公開交換意見的強度要夠不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易這是我要給你第二個提醒第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟啊耗資甚巨啊剛剛部長在答詢其他委員的時候有講我可能是鼓勵廠商啊或怎麼樣"},{"start":325.313,"end":351.661,"text":"鼓勵廠商的時候難免剛剛我講第二個提醒嘛內線交易等等第三我們的電網到現在為止我們上次總諮詢在討論過對不對基本上還是台電抓走台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常非常大那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情也希望經濟部做審慎的思考好不好好不然我喜歡你的心直口快但我希望喔這個你之前在總諮詢前面的時候你也講說我擔心自己兩年自己歷了軍令狀我們"},{"start":353.562,"end":372.727,"text":"我們在總質詢討論的時候是很多政策其實我給你時間做修正沒有問題電業法的部分可以修正當然沒有問題但我同時也提醒電業法既然都可以修正我們的能源配比它其實也可以修正我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快直面問題的勇氣帶來政策調整的空間希望部長堅持謝謝委員"}]}}},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"term":11,"id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","type":"委員會"},"會議時間":"2024-10-16T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"14:23:56 - 14:30:13","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「我國電力能源配比執行現況與未來規劃」進行報告，並備質詢。）","id":155630,"gazette":{"lineno":1507,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（14時24分）謝謝主席，郭部長，有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了！我先在這邊讚美你一下，之前我們在這邊討論煉油廠的議題，你答應本席要來現場會勘，你在非會期的時候也說到做到了，這點我先讚美你一下，你有說到做到。","其次，我跟大部分的在場委員不見得一樣，其實我有的時候滿欣賞部長心直口快的個性，比如說在討論一些重大議題的時候，你就直接講問題在哪裡，解方可能有困難，比方說你講供電不足，要蓋個電廠，到處都反對。對不對？直接把問題攤開來講，有些時候反而是比較好的做法，因為如果每個人都不願意面對問題的核心，那就不用去談問題的解方了。","基於你心直口快的個性，當然就是我接下來要問的菲律賓的事情，你今天早上說這是草率發言，真的是草率發言嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為大家希望我這麼講啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：大家希望你這麼講喔？"],["郭部長智輝：所有的媒體都希望我這樣講。"],["牛委員煦庭：蛤！那我就跟大家不一樣！不過你這樣金句連發也真是嚇我一跳！","我要問部長的是，我們整個國家體系或經濟部的體系，有沒有針對跨國的電網串連有任何研究計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：我想，在所有的論壇上面都有討論到這一點，所以你可以看得出來，像新加坡為什麼要從澳洲拉那麼遠（4,300公里）的電到新加坡？其實新加坡自己本身不需要這樣子，而是整個東南亞國家利用這個電網，大家互相support。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以它不只是有國家內部的研究計畫，甚至有世界、國際合作格局高度的計畫支撐，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯，這個也就是民主聯盟國家裡面他們都有在討論這樣的命題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我就問了嘛！所以我覺得你不是只是草率發言而已啊！現在比如說臺灣連到呂宋島這個計畫，它背後有沒有指導計畫、上位計畫或研究計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：是。它等著我提出啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：等著你提出哦？真的還假的啊？"],["郭部長智輝：當然啊！因為這都是在論壇裡面討論過的事情……"],["牛委員煦庭：只是在論壇裡面討論？"],["郭部長智輝：所以我說草率發言就是我沒有按照過去大家習慣的，有上位計畫，然後有實施計畫，確定以後才來發布這件事情，所以我對這樣子的不精準感到非常抱歉，我願意跟大家道歉，因為我的發言不精準，造成大家的誤會。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我可以諒解你常常遇到這樣子的壓力的原因，因為臺灣的供電確實在過去這段時間越來越辛苦，你提出各種方法也是盡你所能，其實我覺得沒有什麼關係。如果這個東西真的沒有上位計畫的話，那你提出來確實是不太妥，但是值得來做一下研究跟瞭解啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是第一個。但我也要針對這樣子的概念做幾個提醒，第一個，它一定要有強而有力的上位計畫，而且不只是我們國內的計畫，還要有一個國際合作的計畫做背景，這是其一。第二，這樣子的國際合作計畫要考量實務上的狀況，比如說在以前全球化的時代，大家說我們電網串連，相對把這個成本降下來，也讓各國的供電穩定度上升，這些方向都是正確的，但是部長，菲律賓真的喔！以我們對他們國內跟現在地緣政治風險的評估，它真的是一個適合合作的對象嗎？你們在論壇裡面有沒有討論過這樣的具體風險呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，這個計畫本來是美國、日本跟菲律賓的領導他們確定的一個呂宋經濟走廊這樣的計畫，這裡面有各個分責的責任……"],["牛委員煦庭：那我剛剛問說有沒有一個上位的計畫，你說沒有，可是這樣聽起來像有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是我的上位啊！它是美、日、菲的計畫啦……"],["牛委員煦庭：美、日、菲的計畫？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我們有沒有被納在裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣沒有在裡面。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有在裡面哦？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，那是美、日、菲的計畫，是我瞭解以後，我去跟他們溝通，說這裡面是不是有一些可以讓臺灣參與，所以它是一個獨立的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：經過今天一整天這麼多委員的靈魂拷問之後，我們到底要不要繼續做這個事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我會開始開論壇、繼續討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要繼續討論？好。第一個是要有明確的計畫。第二個我要講的就是，你的計畫裡面要有一定的透明度跟知情權，也就是說，我現在做這件事情，我要有所本，這樣才不會變成草率發言，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：假如有這樣的計畫，也要適時來跟人民大眾溝通，因為它是一個重大的政策……"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["牛委員煦庭：知情權是很重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：不然比如說聯想到雲豹的投資，也有可能是廠商個別在那邊的國外開發計畫，對不對？但是被連結的時候，你頭就很痛了嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟它一點關係都沒有！他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你沒有辦法講出背後的一套，比方說我有另外一個計畫、然後它是什麼，就會陷入這樣的風險。"],["郭部長智輝：我相信它一定不是去開發這個美國跟日本他們自己決定的這樣一個計畫，它也沒有那個能力啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有這樣一個計畫，它的資訊公開、交換意見的強度要夠，不要變成有些廠商有機會有內線交易，這是我要給你的第二個提醒。"],["郭部長智輝：是，一定！"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個提醒是這個東西畢竟耗資甚鉅，剛剛部長在回答其他委員提問的時候有講，可能是鼓勵廠商或怎麼樣，鼓勵廠商的時候難免碰觸到我剛剛講的第二個提醒嘛！就是內線交易等等。","第三，我們的電網到現在為止，我們上次總質詢才討論過，基本上還是台電抓總，台電的債務跟財務壓力其實是非常、非常大，那我們有沒有條件從實務上去做到這件事情，也希望經濟部審慎的思考。好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我喜歡你的心直口快，但是你之前在總質詢的時候也講擔心自己、兩年等等，立了軍令狀，我們在總質詢討論的時候，其實是針對很多政策給你時間修正，這沒有問題……"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：電業法的部分可以修正，當然沒有問題，但我同時也提醒，電業法既然都可以修正，我們的能源配比其實也可以修正。我們期待看到的是部長以你心直口快、直面問題的勇氣，帶來政策調整的空間，希望部長堅持。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-5","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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