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49.08, \"text\": \"台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 47.179, \"end\": 47.319, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 47.319, \"end\": 47.339, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"克\", \"start\": 47.339, \"end\": 47.399, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"蘭\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 47.399, \"end\": 47.539, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 47.539, \"end\": 48.339, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 48.339, \"end\": 48.499, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 48.499, \"end\": 48.579, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 48.579, \"end\": 48.739, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 48.739, \"end\": 48.86, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 48.86, \"end\": 49.06, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 49.06, \"end\": 49.08, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}]}, {\"start\": 72.631, \"end\": 91.486, \"text\": 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00:00:46,319\n由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海\n\n3\n00:00:47,179 --> 00:00:49,080\n台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況\n\n4\n00:01:12,631 --> 00:01:31,486\n所以我們美方善意派來的JTT他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來強調的分散式的執管去中心化\n\n5\n00:01:32,697 --> 00:01:59,826\n去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講\n\n6\n00:02:02,708 --> 00:02:24,593\n將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解\n\n7\n00:02:25,453 --> 00:02:27,774\n各位看這張圖上復原這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在右上角的那一小塊\n\n8\n00:02:53,217 --> 00:02:53,397\n李卓人議員\n\n9\n00:03:03,715 --> 00:03:03,815\n國防部長\n\n10\n00:03:24,404 --> 00:03:41,287\n這裡面有許多是realtimeinformation的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成\n\n11\n00:03:43,618 --> 00:04:06,852\n向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作\n\n12\n00:04:09,191 --> 00:04:34,059\n我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNCONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊\n\n13\n00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:51,990\n有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢\n\n14\n00:04:52,858 --> 00:04:58,420\n當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢\n\n15\n00:05:20,060 --> 00:05:20,140\n李卓人議員\n\n16\n00:05:37,108 --> 00:05:58,065\n我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新\n\n17\n00:05:59,418 --> 00:06:23,915\n另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了\n\n18\n00:06:27,022 --> 00:06:27,702\n達到今天是977天了\n\n19\n00:06:52,823 --> 00:06:54,784\n：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：\n\n20\n00:07:21,801 --> 00:07:44,649\n這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置\n\n21\n00:07:50,293 --> 00:07:57,496\n國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像\n\n22\n00:08:18,592 --> 00:08:18,632\n陳永康議員\n\n23\n00:08:41,964 --> 00:08:49,525\n聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步\n\n24\n00:08:50,814 --> 00:08:53,256\n提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖\n\n25\n00:09:18,991 --> 00:09:41,916\n我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換\n\n26\n00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:43,977\n提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚\n\n27\n00:10:01,356 --> 00:10:17,007\n中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。\n\n28\n00:10:21,779 --> 00:10:39,595\n這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入\n\n29\n00:10:40,616 --> 00:11:03,264\n路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個\n\n30\n00:11:04,889 --> 00:11:05,069\n羅美玲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n229\t449\t陸海空軍參謀長陳委員長\n18462\t46319\t由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海\n47179\t49080\t台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況\n72631\t91486\t所以我們美方善意派來的JTT他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來強調的分散式的執管去中心化\n92697\t119826\t去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講\n122708\t144593\t將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解\n145453\t147774\t各位看這張圖上復原這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在右上角的那一小塊\n173217\t173397\t李卓人議員\n183715\t183815\t國防部長\n204404\t221287\t這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成\n223618\t246852\t向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作\n249191\t274059\t我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNC ONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊\n278710\t291990\t有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢\n292858\t298420\t當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢\n320060\t320140\t李卓人議員\n337108\t358065\t我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新\n359418\t383915\t另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了\n387022\t387702\t達到今天是977天了\n412823\t414784\t：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：\n441801\t464649\t這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置\n470293\t477496\t國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像\n498592\t498632\t陳永康議員\n521964\t529525\t聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步\n530814\t533256\t提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖\n558991\t581916\t我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換\n582756\t583977\t提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚\n601356\t617007\t中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。\n621779\t639595\t這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入\n640616\t663264\t路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個\n664889\t665069\t羅美玲委員\n","txt":"陸海空軍參謀長陳委員長\n由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海\n台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況\n所以我們美方善意派來的JTT他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來強調的分散式的執管去中心化\n去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講\n將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解\n各位看這張圖上復原這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在右上角的那一小塊\n李卓人議員\n國防部長\n這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成\n向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作\n我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNC ONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊\n有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢\n當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢\n李卓人議員\n我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新\n另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了\n達到今天是977天了\n：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：\n這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置\n國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像\n陳永康議員\n聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步\n提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖\n我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換\n提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚\n中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。\n這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入\n路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個\n羅美玲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.229 --> 00:00.449\n陸海空軍參謀長陳委員長\n\n00:18.462 --> 00:46.319\n由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海\n\n00:47.179 --> 00:49.080\n台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況\n\n01:12.631 --> 01:31.486\n所以我們美方善意派來的JTT他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來強調的分散式的執管去中心化\n\n01:32.697 --> 01:59.826\n去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講\n\n02:02.708 --> 02:24.593\n將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解\n\n02:25.453 --> 02:27.774\n各位看這張圖上復原這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在右上角的那一小塊\n\n02:53.217 --> 02:53.397\n李卓人議員\n\n03:03.715 --> 03:03.815\n國防部長\n\n03:24.404 --> 03:41.287\n這裡面有許多是realtimeinformation的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成\n\n03:43.618 --> 04:06.852\n向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作\n\n04:09.191 --> 04:34.059\n我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNCONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊\n\n04:38.710 --> 04:51.990\n有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢\n\n04:52.858 --> 04:58.420\n當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢\n\n05:20.060 --> 05:20.140\n李卓人議員\n\n05:37.108 --> 05:58.065\n我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新\n\n05:59.418 --> 06:23.915\n另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了\n\n06:27.022 --> 06:27.702\n達到今天是977天了\n\n06:52.823 --> 06:54.784\n：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：\n\n07:21.801 --> 07:44.649\n這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置\n\n07:50.293 --> 07:57.496\n國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像\n\n08:18.592 --> 08:18.632\n陳永康議員\n\n08:41.964 --> 08:49.525\n聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步\n\n08:50.814 --> 08:53.256\n提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖\n\n09:18.991 --> 09:41.916\n我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換\n\n09:42.756 --> 09:43.977\n提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚\n\n10:01.356 --> 10:17.007\n中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。\n\n10:21.779 --> 10:39.595\n這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入\n\n10:40.616 --> 11:03.264\n路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個\n\n11:04.889 --> 11:05.069\n羅美玲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.229,"end":0.449,"text":"陸海空軍參謀長陳委員長"},{"start":18.462,"end":46.319,"text":"由於近來國際情勢的動態變化再加上中共的軍演施壓我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力當然在您的領導下這個分層負責授權但是我們還是覺得我們共同還有努力的空間那麼因為談到國際情勢在您剛剛的報告裡面講了跟講的就跟美國那個布林肯講的是一樣的就是說朝鮮半島東海台海南海"},{"start":47.179,"end":49.08,"text":"台灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況"},{"start":72.631,"end":91.486,"text":"所以我們美方善意派來的JTT他的成員大部分是陸戰的經驗因此強調了以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來強調的分散式的執管去中心化"},{"start":92.697,"end":119.826,"text":"去中心化分散式直轉在烏克蘭在這個北約跟美方提供的因為他這是部隊復原散佈很廣所以他的鏈路受限所以他是去中心化但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易海空軍的去中心化非常難請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡可以去中心化嗎你海上的攔截做制海比方講"},{"start":122.708,"end":144.593,"text":"將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭你有30公里、70公里甚至300公里射程你跟逾差飛彈的射程是相同請問去中心化以後如何使用所以去中心化它是一個手段是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷不完整分層負責各作戰區它有了解"},{"start":145.453,"end":147.774,"text":"各位看這張圖上復原這麼大我們現在講的俄烏的東部戰區實際上在庫爾斯克只是在右上角的那一小塊"},{"start":173.217,"end":173.397,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":183.715,"end":183.815,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":204.404,"end":221.287,"text":"這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像去中心化以後那就是用簡單的圖了我現在請教陸軍參謀長你現在的UTM的圖啊90張你要把它改成數位化什麼時間可以完成"},{"start":223.618,"end":246.852,"text":"向委員報告這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求那因為這個製圖他從測繪他這個位照他都需要相當的時間那目前已經有一定的產製出來的成果這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作"},{"start":249.191,"end":274.059,"text":"我當然了解你那個限制因素了這個光不是401場的問題401場本身事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖那你要跟衛星同步校正現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的坐標圖我們空軍用的圖JNC ONC的圖UTM坐標圖是幾萬分之一啊"},{"start":278.71,"end":291.99,"text":"有大圖幅小圖幅依照作戰成績不同對你大圖是多少有兩萬五分一五萬分一對你的大圖是五萬分之一但是海圖呢"},{"start":292.858,"end":298.42,"text":"當我們要掌握大的格局區域安全情勢的時候你各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正以後它是可以套點這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢"},{"start":320.06,"end":320.14,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":337.108,"end":358.065,"text":"我建議這個UTM的圖要加快因為這個國際情勢變化很快美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快如果圖資不能跟上你的準則叫範完全不能跟上所以同樣在這個情況下我們的國防大學的這個子參教育的圖集要同步更新"},{"start":359.418,"end":383.915,"text":"另外我是建議包括航圖像這個在國際航圖圖的本身現在都不是機密但圖上掛的資料是機密所以共同圖像的平台是可以政府內部甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平台那我下面可以顯示給您看用了共同圖像以後你的判斷如何會方便起來所以烏東戰場就兩個台灣沒有了"},{"start":387.022,"end":387.702,"text":"達到今天是977天了"},{"start":412.823,"end":414.784,"text":"：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康：陳永康："},{"start":441.801,"end":464.649,"text":"這是把臺灣圖轉90度我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖用的是方法論臺灣如果暫時美國有三天的時間在你東岸可以控制宮古巴士掌握狀況他並沒有來幫你我們來面對挑戰國際航線這是中共發布的演習這個遼寧號航線的位置"},{"start":470.293,"end":477.496,"text":"國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖是示意圖我們了解當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像對於每一個層級開會尤其是國安層級能夠有一個更客觀的圖像"},{"start":498.592,"end":498.632,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":521.964,"end":529.525,"text":"聯演範圍涵蓋多遠演習期程可長可短演習步驟可快可慢軍警同步"},{"start":530.814,"end":533.256,"text":"提供長官一個客觀周延的一個平台判斷平台我們把圖持續套疊上去那這個是示意圖"},{"start":558.991,"end":581.916,"text":"我們可以用路途海圖航圖經過比照套疊產生不同的效果那可以看到更細的部位包括我的涵蓋徵收範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍這個裡面我用的是是概括的但是我這個方法告訴各位讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍哪些要透過跟友盟情之交換"},{"start":582.756,"end":583.977,"text":"提供給長官一個比較宏觀客觀﹚很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷﹚"},{"start":601.356,"end":617.007,"text":"中共執行歷鑒演習,我們也這個方法論都論出來了,最後因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議,這個我們會後把這個當作資料提供貴部做參考,因為時間剛剛到位,謝謝耐心,請部長做一個指導。"},{"start":621.779,"end":639.595,"text":"這個陳委員所指教的建立這個共同作戰圖像這個也是應該的那當然我們現行已經你也知道有一些共同作戰圖像的一個行程那現在您剛指教的就是說各軍種的這個部分那麼我們現在海軍跟空軍的部分已經有納入"},{"start":640.616,"end":663.264,"text":"路徑的部分我想我們會盡快的再加速來建設另外我想更重要的是一個指管的備援的韌性您剛也提到就是說去中心化它本身不是一個目的而是在我們一旦面臨的狀況的時候我們還能夠遂行的它依照它的任務來遂行它的依照它的任務的這個"},{"start":664.889,"end":665.069,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":131,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時25分）主席好，有請顧部長及陸、海、空軍參謀長。"],["主席：請部長及三軍參謀長。"],["陳委員永康：部長，您早。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員早。"],["陳委員永康：由於近來國際情勢的動態變化，再加上中共的軍演施壓，我想國軍同仁承擔了更大的責任跟壓力，當然在您的領導下分層負責授權，但我們還是覺得我們還有共同努力的空間。因為談到國際情勢，您剛剛的報告裡面提到的就跟美國Blinken講的一樣，就是說朝鮮半島、東海、臺海、南海會有連動的關係，因此我們國軍在戰略預警態勢上的範疇就不是完全聚焦在臺海周遭，這個東西需要用一個共同圖像，請各位看一下，臺灣跟烏克蘭是完全不同的地理狀況，美方善意派來的JTT成員大部分是陸戰的經驗，以烏克蘭兩年多的經驗累積起來的，所以強調的是分散式指管、去中心化，去中心化、分散式指管在烏克蘭在北約跟美方提供的，因為它的部隊幅員散布很廣，它的鏈路受限，所以是去中心化。但是陸上部隊去中心化較容易，海、空軍的去中心化非常難，請問野戰防空跟區域防空的差別在哪裡？可以去中心化嗎？你海上的攔截做制海，比方講，將來陸軍接收了M142海馬斯火箭，你有30公里、70公里，甚至300公里射程，跟魚叉飛彈的射程是相同，請問去中心化以後如何使用？所以去中心化是一個手段，是代表你的指管系統在某些情況下功能中斷、不完整、分層負責，各作戰區有瞭解，去中心化（decentralized）從頭到尾不是目標，所以你同時在指管系統的強化下去強化它的韌性，至於地面部隊分層負責，那個去中心化是容易實現的。","各位看這張圖，幅員這麼大，我們現在講的俄烏東部戰區，實際上在庫爾斯克，只是在右上角的那一小塊，沒有大進展，但以臺灣的大小來說，在烏東、烏南可以放兩個臺灣進去了。在這種情況下的指管，我們如何用去中心化？我們更要強化目前網路鏈路的韌性。所謂去中心化，應該是旅級以下的部隊分層負責授權，你的戰區絕對不能去中心化，尤其是我們建立的共同圖像，結合資料庫，這裡面有許多是real time information的sharing，如果你沒有一個完整共同圖像，去中心化以後，那就是用簡單的圖了。我想請教陸軍參謀長，你現在UTM的圖90張，你要把它改成數位化，什麼時間可以完成？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，這個案子現在軍備局的401廠正在依照我們軍種的需求，因為這個製圖從測繪、偽造都需要相當的時間，目前已經有一定產製出來的成果，這方面會依照我們軍種的需求來製作。"],["陳委員永康：我當然了解你那個限制因素啦，這不光是401廠的問題，事實上UTM本身在內政部也有這些圖，你要跟衛星同步校正，現在問題是我們面臨的挑戰不是光你90張UTM的座標圖，我們空軍用的圖，JNC、ONC的圖，UTM座標圖是幾萬分之一？"],["陳參謀長建義：有大圖幅、小圖幅，依照作戰層級不同。"],["陳委員永康：對，你大圖是多少？"],["陳參謀長建義：有兩萬五分一、五萬分一。"],["陳委員永康：對，你的大圖是五萬分之一啦！"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["陳委員永康：但是海圖呢？二十萬分之一、五十萬分之一，範圍……"],["陳參謀長建義：對，都有，按照比例跟範圍。"],["陳委員永康：按照比例。那航空圖呢？五十萬分之一、百萬分之一，甚至兩百萬分之一，所以當我們要掌握大的格局、區域安全情勢的時候，各軍的圖基本上用GIS校正，WGIS校正以後，它是可以套疊，這個時候你才能夠看到一個完整的周遭態勢。在場的同仁，我們的專業背景不同，工作經驗不同，可是你沒有一個共同圖像提供一個完整的判斷，就會產生在下決策過程中間或是在討論過程中間，比較難得到一個完整的共識。關於這個部分，我建議這個UTM的圖要加快，因為國際情勢變化很快，美方交件的物件裝備後面也會越來越快，如果圖資不能跟上，你的準則教範完全不能跟上，所以同樣在這個情況下，我們國防大學指參教育的圖籍要同步更新。","另外，我是建議包括航圖，像在國際航圖，圖的本身現在都不是機密，但是圖上掛的資料是機密，所以共同圖像的平臺是可以政府內部，甚至跟學界都可以找一個相同平臺，那我下面可以顯示給您看，用了共同圖像以後，你的判斷如何會方便起來，所以烏東戰場就兩個臺灣沒有了，加薩走廊以色列也不過是三分之二個臺灣。如果我們通通用小比例的圖，那你就看不到大格局，你用大格局的圖，你不知道細部，所以三軍的圖要通通校正能夠套疊，這個時候我們在指揮中心長官判斷才能客觀。俄烏戰爭打到今天是977天，一定是在明年美國新任總統就職完，大概才來看條件怎麼談，在這種情況下，它的變化其實是不是每天大變化，因此在烏克蘭的作戰中間，因為是Starlink全程support它，跟我們未來的所謂的OneWeb，國軍還希望進一步地要跟它努力來定義清楚。","下面這個圖各位看一下，我們很快的走一下，這是把臺灣地圖轉90度，我們這個用的是行動態勢說明圖，用的是方法論。臺灣如果戰時美國有三天的時間在你東岸，可以控制宮古、巴士掌握狀況，他並沒有來幫你，我們來面對挑戰。國際航線，這是中共發布的演習，遼寧號航艦的位置套疊前三次的演習，所以所有的狀況用圖像再掛上資料庫。國防部對報紙上發布的這是一個概念圖、是示意圖，我們了解，當然在內部我們希望有一個更精緻的共同圖像，對於每一個層級開會，尤其是國安層級，能夠有一個更客觀的圖像。","剛才講到的，包括布林肯都講了，朝鮮半島、東海、臺海、南海，這個周遭的細部圖都要能夠比對套疊，包括動態，那我們關心的是什麼呢？不只是動態的情勢，左邊的這幾個和中間的部分，我相信很多我們都很努力在做，但是有些地方也需要強化，包括戰略預警，期程多遠？聯演兵力，規模多大？聯演範圍，涵蓋多遠？演習期程，可長可短？演習步驟，可快可慢？軍警同步，維權施壓？那我們在看的是反應時間，戰備提升？反應作為，快速整備？共同圖像，全程掌握？情資分享、友盟合作？國安戰略，指導部會？社會韌性，全程對應？這裡面我一直到今天向大家強調的就是共同圖像，提供長官一個客觀周延的判斷平臺。","我們把圖持續套疊上去，這個是示意圖，我們可以用陸圖、海圖、航圖經過比照套疊，產生不同的效果，那可以看到更細的部位，包括我的涵蓋偵搜範圍跟這一次中共的涵蓋範圍。這裡面我用的是概估的，但是我這個方法告訴各位，讓長官可以看到哪些是超出了我的偵測範圍，哪些要透過跟友盟情資交換。所有的圖像都要校正套疊，這裡面的經緯度是全部比例，各位看過的大圖、小圖通通校正過的，這個時候就提供給長官一個比較宏觀、客觀，很容易在短時間形成共識的判斷，包括朝鮮半島最近的緊張狀況，所以中共執行這個利劍演習，我們也把方法論都論出來了。最後，因為我也有觀察的重點跟提出的建議，會後我們把這部分當作資料提供給貴部參考。因為剛剛時間到了，謝謝各位的耐心，請部長指導。"],["顧部長立雄：我想陳委員所指教的建立共同作戰圖像，這個也是應該的，當然我們現行，你也知道，已經有一些共同作戰圖像的形成，您剛剛指教各軍種的部分，我們現在海軍跟空軍已經有納入，陸軍的部分我想我們會儘快的再加速來建置。另外，我想更重要的一個是指管的備援、韌性。您剛剛也提到，去中心化本身不是一個目的，而是在我們一旦面臨了狀況的時候，我們還能夠依照他的任務對他的要求，來遂行他的任務的達成，所以指管韌性的建置，我們一定要多重，然後要備援，當然一直要到各作戰區，這是我們現在一直在努力的方向。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，大家加油，共同努力。"],["顧部長立雄：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員，各位請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}}