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\"start\": 701.712, \"end\": 701.732, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 702.864, \"end\": 702.984, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 702.984, \"end\": 703.104, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 703.104, \"end\": 703.124, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 703.124, \"end\": 703.144, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 703.144, \"end\": 703.164, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,017 --> 00:00:34,972\n主席我們是不是請部長邀請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概就很仔細的看我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教\n\n2\n00:00:39,471 --> 00:00:54,884\n第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會\n\n3\n00:00:56,645 --> 00:01:05,630\n當然有很多理由,主要是強化司法發現真實之能力,減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在,今年民國113年了\n\n4\n00:01:19,652 --> 00:01:40,529\n這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學\n\n5\n00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:59,398\n委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院\n\n6\n00:02:01,118 --> 00:02:26,610\n對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在法院就所謂在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個\n\n7\n00:02:28,602 --> 00:02:47,077\n國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議就朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個方向來籌備\n\n8\n00:02:54,878 --> 00:02:56,964\n但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後\n\n9\n00:03:01,328 --> 00:03:28,022\n我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把它報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關\n\n10\n00:03:31,345 --> 00:03:55,252\n委員最後的研議的結果是法務部：下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個可研究這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的\n\n11\n00:03:56,431 --> 00:04:22,602\n的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所後所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是\n\n12\n00:04:23,362 --> 00:04:44,422\n我為什麼認為不是由法院研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法院研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個\n\n13\n00:04:45,686 --> 00:05:11,427\n我想這個最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法院研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他法院研究所他不可能說研究的出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法院研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠\n\n14\n00:05:13,133 --> 00:05:38,802\n稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位\n\n15\n00:05:40,492 --> 00:06:04,369\n分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法域研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的\n\n16\n00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:25,335\n一個一個認證啦並沒有一個國家級認證這是那時候為什麼為什麼思改國是會認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位\n\n17\n00:06:27,248 --> 00:06:48,915\n這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位\n\n18\n00:06:49,955 --> 00:07:18,356\n我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局﹚還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監獄中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部違物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所\n\n19\n00:07:19,725 --> 00:07:39,253\n數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的\n\n20\n00:07:40,831 --> 00:08:07,181\n獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經\n\n21\n00:08:08,749 --> 00:08:09,150\n市長要補充嗎?\n\n22\n00:08:18,632 --> 00:08:46,286\n我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下\n\n23\n00:08:47,612 --> 00:08:54,196\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n\n24\n00:09:16,045 --> 00:09:32,093\n學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在\n\n25\n00:09:38,676 --> 00:09:47,302\n這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會\n\n26\n00:09:54,086 --> 00:09:59,811\n國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面\n\n27\n00:10:10,969 --> 00:10:32,438\n對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰\n\n28\n00:10:35,959 --> 00:10:50,645\n所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會\n\n29\n00:10:51,425 --> 00:11:05,754\n那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下\n\n30\n00:11:16,718 --> 00:11:41,732\n我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看\n\n31\n00:11:42,864 --> 00:11:43,164\n法定人數不足\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14017\t34972\t主席我們是不是請部長邀請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概就很仔細的看我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教\n39471\t54884\t第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會\n56645\t65630\t當然有很多理由,主要是強化司法發現真實之能力,減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在,今年民國113年了\n79652\t100529\t這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學\n101840\t119398\t委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院\n121118\t146610\t對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在法院就所謂在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個\n148602\t167077\t國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議就朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個方向來籌備\n174878\t176964\t但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後\n181328\t208022\t我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把它報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關\n211345\t235252\t委員最後的研議的結果是法務部：下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個可研究這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的\n236431\t262602\t的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所後所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是\n263362\t284422\t我為什麼認為不是由法院研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法院研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個\n285686\t311427\t我想這個最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法院研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他法院研究所他不可能說研究的出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法院研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠\n313133\t338802\t稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位\n340492\t364369\t分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法域研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的\n365330\t385335\t一個一個認證啦並沒有一個國家級認證這是那時候為什麼為什麼思改國是會認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位\n387248\t408915\t這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位\n409955\t438356\t我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局﹚還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監獄中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部違物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所\n439725\t459253\t數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的\n460831\t487181\t獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經\n488749\t489150\t市長要補充嗎?\n498632\t526286\t我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下\n527612\t534196\t立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n556045\t572093\t學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在\n578676\t587302\t這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會\n594086\t599811\t國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面\n610969\t632438\t對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰\n635959\t650645\t所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會\n651425\t665754\t那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下\n676718\t701732\t我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看\n702864\t703164\t法定人數不足\n","txt":"主席我們是不是請部長邀請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概就很仔細的看我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教\n第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會\n當然有很多理由,主要是強化司法發現真實之能力,減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在,今年民國113年了\n這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學\n委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院\n對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在法院就所謂在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個\n國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議就朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個方向來籌備\n但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後\n我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把它報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關\n委員最後的研議的結果是法務部：下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個可研究這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的\n的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所後所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是\n我為什麼認為不是由法院研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法院研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個\n我想這個最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法院研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他法院研究所他不可能說研究的出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法院研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠\n稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位\n分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法域研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的\n一個一個認證啦並沒有一個國家級認證這是那時候為什麼為什麼思改國是會認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位\n這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位\n我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局﹚還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監獄中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部違物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所\n數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的\n獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經\n市長要補充嗎?\n我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在\n這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會\n國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面\n對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰\n所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會\n那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下\n我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看\n法定人數不足\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.017 --> 00:34.972\n主席我們是不是請部長邀請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概就很仔細的看我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教\n\n00:39.471 --> 00:54.884\n第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會\n\n00:56.645 --> 01:05.630\n當然有很多理由,主要是強化司法發現真實之能力,減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在,今年民國113年了\n\n01:19.652 --> 01:40.529\n這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學\n\n01:41.840 --> 01:59.398\n委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院\n\n02:01.118 --> 02:26.610\n對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在法院就所謂在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個\n\n02:28.602 --> 02:47.077\n國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議就朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個方向來籌備\n\n02:54.878 --> 02:56.964\n但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後\n\n03:01.328 --> 03:28.022\n我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把它報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關\n\n03:31.345 --> 03:55.252\n委員最後的研議的結果是法務部：下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個可研究這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的\n\n03:56.431 --> 04:22.602\n的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所後所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是\n\n04:23.362 --> 04:44.422\n我為什麼認為不是由法院研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法院研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個\n\n04:45.686 --> 05:11.427\n我想這個最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法院研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他法院研究所他不可能說研究的出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法院研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠\n\n05:13.133 --> 05:38.802\n稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位\n\n05:40.492 --> 06:04.369\n分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法域研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的\n\n06:05.330 --> 06:25.335\n一個一個認證啦並沒有一個國家級認證這是那時候為什麼為什麼思改國是會認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位\n\n06:27.248 --> 06:48.915\n這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位\n\n06:49.955 --> 07:18.356\n我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局﹚還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監獄中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部違物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所\n\n07:19.725 --> 07:39.253\n數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的\n\n07:40.831 --> 08:07.181\n獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經\n\n08:08.749 --> 08:09.150\n市長要補充嗎?\n\n08:18.632 --> 08:46.286\n我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下\n\n08:47.612 --> 08:54.196\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n\n09:16.045 --> 09:32.093\n學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在\n\n09:38.676 --> 09:47.302\n這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會\n\n09:54.086 --> 09:59.811\n國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面\n\n10:10.969 --> 10:32.438\n對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰\n\n10:35.959 --> 10:50.645\n所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會\n\n10:51.425 --> 11:05.754\n那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下\n\n11:16.718 --> 11:41.732\n我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看\n\n11:42.864 --> 11:43.164\n法定人數不足\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.017,"end":34.972,"text":"主席我們是不是請部長邀請鄭部長委員早部長早我想今天這個本席大概就很仔細的看我們這個法務部的書面的業務報告就大概兩個問題來跟這個部長來請教"},{"start":39.471,"end":54.884,"text":"第一個就是有關我們在106年9月的司改國事會議裡面那時候有決議那時候的司改國事會議的一個決議就是應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會"},{"start":56.645,"end":65.63,"text":"當然有很多理由,主要是強化司法發現真實之能力,減少冤議這是當時我們四改國事會議的正式結論從106年到現在,今年民國113年了"},{"start":79.652,"end":100.529,"text":"這個過程裡面我們這個當時司改會所所大家所做成的決議認為應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會這樣子的一個結論經過這麼多年了齁我們現在在在你們的這個業務報告裡面看到齁這個國家級的司法科學"},{"start":101.84,"end":119.398,"text":"委員會現在經過多年的研討跟這個研究你們的研議之後現在變成要設立在以現在的這個法醫研究所的改制做這個國家司法科學研究院"},{"start":121.118,"end":146.61,"text":"對不對部長現在是不是這個方向是朝這個方向來努力目前在法院就所謂在規劃進行中我知道現在我有整理這個整個變化的過程如何一個司改國事會議的結論從一個國家級的國家級的司法科學委員會到現在變成法務部這個所屬法務部所屬的一個"},{"start":148.602,"end":167.077,"text":"國家司法科學研究院的一個司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程在106年施改國事會議提出這個結論之後我看我們法務部在107年108年那時候就開始研議舉辦了多次的這個這個可行性跟這個籌備會議那時候一開始還叫籌備會議就朝這個國家級的的這個司法科學委員會的這個方向來籌備"},{"start":174.878,"end":176.964,"text":"但是這樣子從107年之後經過4年到110年之後"},{"start":181.328,"end":208.022,"text":"我們開始由法醫研究所來開始研議法醫研究所的改制這把整個國家級把它降到我們法務部所屬的這個法醫研究所的改制那到這個110這個是110年喔又經過一年之後法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長到112年我們法務部就把它報到行政院了就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關"},{"start":211.345,"end":235.252,"text":"委員最後的研議的結果是法務部：下屬由法域研究院來改制的一個可研究這個能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折一直到我知道現在你們在112年報行政院把這個組織草案把這個組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改修改之後在在今年的"},{"start":236.431,"end":262.602,"text":"的8月才沒多久之前8月你們又已經修改後的草案送行政院了對不對是這部分這個比較詳細的一個轉折我是不是可以請那個法醫研究所後所長來跟委員來做一個這個法醫研究所的他們他們也很用心的來說就法醫研究所如何改制讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面他能夠去擴大到這個相關領域但是"},{"start":263.362,"end":284.422,"text":"我為什麼認為不是由法院研究所來回答因為這個是政策選擇這個不是他們的法院研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用而是說我們的這個司改國事委員會很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關到現在變成法務部下屬的那這個"},{"start":285.686,"end":311.427,"text":"我想這個最後還是一個政策的選擇而不是法院研究所他們的研究啦他們的研究整本我都看完了啦研究的相當的詳細但是畢竟他法院研究所他不可能說研究的出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位這個是不可能的他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下如何讓法院研究所去擴充他的職能讓他能夠"},{"start":313.133,"end":338.802,"text":"稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的這個這個司法科技只是這個方向而已所以還是政策還是我們部長這邊要來清楚談這個我們現在國家的這個司法科學那時候為什麼司改國是會會做這樣的結論我們現在這是各個機關大家各個不同的這個司法科學的單位"},{"start":340.492,"end":364.369,"text":"分散在各個機關包括我們這個法務部下面的法域研究所我們調查局裡面的監視科學處警政署自己刑事警察局裡面有有這個刑事警察局的監視中心國防部有國防部的監視中心海洋委員會有海洋委員會的監視中心這個都各個單位所做出來的監視它並沒有一個國家級的"},{"start":365.33,"end":385.335,"text":"一個一個認證啦並沒有一個國家級認證這是那時候為什麼為什麼思改國是會認為說我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級同籌各個這個司法科學單位的一個機構啊但是你們最後的結果你們現在所做出來的結果就是還是這些單位都仍然存在你們自己還是一個這些單位其中的一個單位"},{"start":387.248,"end":408.915,"text":"這個跟原本的這個司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠我再用美國的例子美國他們設置了一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC他們把它分成整個司法科學分成七大領域我們這七大領域裡面我看我們這個七大領域現在分散在各個單位"},{"start":409.955,"end":438.356,"text":"我們有關生物的部分﹚法醫研究所﹚刑事警察局﹚調查局﹚還有六都的這些刑事監視中心我們有關物理及形態分析分散在刑事警察局﹚六都的刑事監獄中心﹚海巡署﹚還有國防部我們的現場勘查在刑事警察局﹚六都刑事監視中心﹚國防部違物跡證在調查局﹚在刑事警察局﹚法醫學在法醫研究所"},{"start":439.725,"end":459.253,"text":"數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部這七大領域我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構這樣子部長這樣子我們怎麼樣用這個法醫研究所的改制來取代這個獨立性的"},{"start":460.831,"end":487.181,"text":"獨立性的這個司法委員會這個部長能不能說明這邊我也希望有建立一個國家級的就是在外界是在行政院的這個一個外界然後把剛剛委員有提到的散落在各個機關的這些的但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊經過這麼多年106年到現在113年跟委員報告就是本來就是有嚴厲就是設在行政院但是因為行政院他的委員會他那個已經"},{"start":488.749,"end":489.15,"text":"市長要補充嗎?"},{"start":498.632,"end":526.286,"text":"我看你一直愈遇愈遇事跟委員報告其實這個是一個政策上的選擇在行政院當時在討論的時候到底是要一階段來達成這個目標還是分階段二階段來達成目標所以在政策上的選擇上行政院決定用二階段來達成這個目標第一階段現在就是我們現在法務部所提出來的版本先設在法務部的一個委員會接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的這一個但你們設在法務部之下"},{"start":527.612,"end":534.196,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會"},{"start":556.045,"end":572.093,"text":"學青政務組變成生物認證中心,就把組改成中心,增加一個綜合規劃中心,跟新設一個司法科學研究教育中心,大概就這樣子,沒有改變啊?沒有,這個委員會的組成,即使未來是法務部的三級機關,它還是由一個委員會來,審議委員會獨立存在"},{"start":578.676,"end":587.302,"text":"這個我現在就可以討論這個審議委員會了齁你們把這個審議委員會你所謂獨立存在並不是獨立存在於這個國家架構沒有錯但是他是獨立運作他是在這個國家科學委員會"},{"start":594.086,"end":599.811,"text":"國家科學院的院長下面他的成績還在國家科學院院長下面把原本應該獨立於國家獨立的機關拉到法務部下面的研究院的下面"},{"start":610.969,"end":632.438,"text":"對這個要如何這個要他他他所扮演職能他要怎麼樣具有空氣力去做這個有關實驗室啊人員資格的認證有關這個司法科學教育司法科學政策全部都由他負責啊跟我們報告像我們現在獨平審議委員會他也在法務部底下但是他的所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士來擔任獨立的審議委員會來審議他的獨立性客觀性也不容挑戰"},{"start":635.959,"end":650.645,"text":"所以沒有說未來制度設計上你不能這樣講啦你不能說啊因為我們找的人都很公正所以他就是一個獨立機關這種東西一個國家體制的設計當然有他的道理為什麼他要是獨立機關為什麼他現在在法務部下面的研究院研究院下面的委員會"},{"start":651.425,"end":665.754,"text":"那成績差那麼多對各位報告的確國家級的研究院的確是個目標但是我們現在剛有跟委員報告政策上我們先用二階段來實施第一階段先設在法務部我沒有看到二階段從103年一直到106年到113年我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下"},{"start":676.718,"end":701.732,"text":"我沒有看到所謂第二階段在哪裡啊當然是我們設在我們法務部底下之後未來評估是不是設在行政院未來評估從106年一直評估到現在113年你如果說世凱國師會議是去年開的你現在在說還在未來要評估我還相信你你現在已經106年研議到113年最後提出來的草案你說啊這個是二階段裡面的一個階段這個我看"},{"start":702.864,"end":703.164,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時48分）主席，我們是不是請部長？"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。今天本席很仔細地看了法務部的書面業務報告，有兩個問題要來跟部長請教。第一個是有關106年9月司改國是會議裡的一個決議，要求應該設立國家級的司法科學委員會，這其中當然有很多理由，最主要是要強化司法發現真實之能力，減少冤抑，這是當時司改國是會議的正式結論。從106年到現在民國113年了，當時司改會所做的決議是認為應該設立國家級司法科學委員會，這樣的一個結論，經過這麼多年，我在你們今天的這個業務報告裡面看到，國家級的司法科學委員會經過多年的研討跟研議，現在變成要以現在的法醫研究所改制，來做這個國家司法科學研究院，對不對？部長，現在是不是這個方向？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是朝這個方向來努力，目前法醫研究所也在規劃進行中。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，我有整理這整個變化的過程，一個司改國是會議的結論，如何從一個國家級的司法科學委員會，到現在變成法務部所屬的司法科學研究院這樣子的變化過程。在106年司改國是會議提出這個結論之後，法務部在107年、108年那時候就開始研議，舉辦了多次的可行性跟籌備會議，那時候一開始還叫籌備會議，就是朝國家級司法科學委員會的方向來籌備，但是從107年經過4年到110年之後，我們開始研議法醫研究所的改制，就是從國家級把它降到法務部所屬的法醫研究所的改制，這是110年的事情。又經過一年之後，法醫研究所把他們改制的建議報告給部長，到112年法務部就把它報到行政院，就變成把原本司改國是會議裡面認為應該是一個國家級的獨立機關，你們最後的研議結果是法務部下屬由法醫研究院來改制，能不能請部長說明一下這樣子的政策轉折？我知道你們在112年把組織法草案報行政院之後又回來修改，修改之後在沒多久之前，今年8月你們已經把修改後的草案送行政院了對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這部分關於比較詳細的一個轉折，我是不是可以請法醫研究所所長來跟委員做一個……"],["沈委員發惠：不，法醫研究所他們也很用心的就法醫研究所如何改制，讓法醫研究所從現在的功能裡面能夠擴大到相關領域，我為什麼認為不是由法醫研究所來回答？因為這個是政策選擇，不是法醫研究所他們認為他們自己怎麼樣改制之後對這個比較有用，而是我們的司改國是會議很清楚講的是一個獨立的國家司法鑑定機關，到現在卻變成法務部下屬，我想這最後還是一個政策的選擇，而不是法醫研究所他們的研究，他們的研究我整本都看完了，研究得相當詳細，但是畢竟法醫研究所不可能說他們研究出來的結果讓自己變成一個國家級的獨立單位，這個是不可能的，他們的研議方向就是在法務部體制之下，如何讓法醫研究所擴充它的職能，讓它能夠有稍微的程度去涵蓋司法國是會議所講的那些統籌國家的司法科技，只是這個方向而已，所以政策還是部長這邊要來清楚談一談。就現在國家的司法科學，那時候為什麼司改國是會議會做這樣的結論？現在不同的司法科學單位都分散在各個機關，包括法務部下面的法醫研究所、調查局裡面的鑑識科學處、警政署刑事警察局裡面有刑事警察局鑑識中心、國防部有國防部的鑑識中心、海洋委員會有海洋委員會的鑑識中心，這些都是各個單位所做出來的鑑識，並沒有一個國家級的認證，這就是為什麼那時候司改國是會議認為我們現在需要這樣子一個國家級統籌各個司法科學單位的機構，但是最後你們所做出來的結果還是這些單位都仍然存在，你們自己也還是這些單位當中的一個單位，這跟原本司改會的結論恐怕是天差地遠。","我就用美國的例子，美國他們設置的一個司法科學領域委員會叫OSAC，他們把整個司法科學分成七大領域，在這七大領域裡面……我看我們的七大領域現在分散在各個單位，我們有關生物的部分分散在法醫研究所、刑事警察局、調查局，還有六都的刑事鑑識中心；有關物理及型態分析則是分散在刑事警察局、六都的刑事鑑定中心、海巡署還有國防部；現場勘查分散在刑事警察局、六都刑事鑑識中心、國防部；微物跡證分散在調查局、刑事警察局；法醫學在法醫研究所；數位跟媒體在調查局、刑事警察局、國防部。針對這七大領域，我們幾乎每一個領域都分散在各個不同的機構，部長，這樣子我們怎麼樣用法醫研究所的改制來取代獨立性的司法科學委員會，部長能不能說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實我也希望建立一個國家級的，也就是位階是在行政院的這個位階，然後把剛才委員所提到散落在各個機關的這些……"],["沈委員發惠：但是現在你們所做出來的不是啊！經過這麼多年，從106年到現在113年……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，本來有研議是設在行政院，但是因為行政院的委員會已經滿了，所以這個才沒辦法……是有這樣的一個因素……"],["沈委員發惠：次長要補充嗎？我看你一直躍躍欲試。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實是一個政策上的選擇，行政院當時在討論到底是要一階段來達成這個目標，還是分二階段來達成這個目標，在政策的選擇上，行政院決定用二階段來達成目標，第一階段就是現在法務部所提出來的版本，先設在法務部的一個委員會，接下來下一個階段之後才成為一個行政院級的委員會。"],["沈委員發惠：但你們設在法務部之下，現在變成一個三級的機關，這樣子它的獨立性何在？在我來看，你們只是把法醫研究所改個名字，我看你們的組織法大概也是擴充幾個而已，把原本的組改成中心，把原本的法醫病醫組變成法醫中心，把原本的毒物化學組變成毒物鑑識中心，把原本的血清證物組變成生物認證中心，大概就是把組改成中心，然後增加一個綜合規劃中心以及新設一個司法科學研究教育中心，大概就是這樣子，沒有改變啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個委員會的組成，即使未來是法務部的三級機關，它還是有一個審議委員會獨立存在……"],["沈委員發惠：我現在就可以跟你討論這個審議委員會，你們把這個審議委員會……你所謂獨立存在，並不是獨立存在於國家架構……"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，但是它是獨立運作。"],["沈委員發惠：它是在國家科學院的院長下面，它的層級還在國家科學院院長下面，原本應該是一個國家獨立的機關，你們把他拉到法務部的研究院下面，它所扮演的職能要怎麼樣具有公信力去做有關實驗室、人員資格的認證？有關司法科學教育、司法科學政策全部都由它負責啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，像我們現在毒品審議委員會，它也是在法務部底下，但是它所屬的成員都是外界獨立的客觀公正人士所組成的獨立審議委員會來審議，它的獨立性、客觀性也不容挑戰。沒有錯，未來制度設計上……"],["沈委員發惠：你不能這樣講啦，你不能說因為我們找的人都很公正，所以它就會是獨立機關，一個國家體制的設計當然有它的道理，為什它要是獨立機關？為什麼它現在是在法務部研究院下面的委員會，那個層級差那麼多！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，國家級研究院的確是一個目標，但是我們剛剛有跟委員報告，政策上我們先用二階段來實施，第一階段先設在法務部……"],["沈委員發惠：我沒有看到二階段，從106年一直到113年，我只看到整個政策從獨立機關一直演變到三級機關，然後把那個委員會放在三級機關之下，我沒有看到所謂的第二階段在哪裡啊！"],["黃次長謀信：當然是設在法務部底下之後，未來評估是不是設在行政院。"],["沈委員發惠：未來評估？你從106年一直評估到現在113年，如果司改國是會議是去年開的，你現在在說未來要評估我還相信你，問題是已經從106年研議到113年，最後提出那個草案，你說這是二階段裡面的一個階段，我看這個也很難說服社會啦！","針對這個部分我們再進一步探討，我不是說法醫研究所的改制不好，我沒有說它不好，只是它跟司改國是會議當中，司法界大家的共識跟結論，實在是差太遠了，這個部分我們以後再進一步來討論。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝部長，謝謝次長。","接下來請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}}