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0.0}]}, {\"start\": 87.564, \"end\": 91.347, \"text\": \"除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 87.564, \"end\": 87.684, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 87.684, \"end\": 87.904, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 87.904, \"end\": 88.145, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 88.145, \"end\": 88.325, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 88.325, \"end\": 88.465, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 88.465, \"end\": 88.625, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 88.625, \"end\": 88.825, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 88.825, \"end\": 89.085, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"P\", \"start\": 89.085, \"end\": 89.506, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 89.506, \"end\": 89.606, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 89.606, \"end\": 89.666, \"score\": 0.463}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": 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\"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 114.824, \"end\": 115.745, \"text\": \"那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 114.824, \"end\": 114.984, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 114.984, \"end\": 115.004, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 115.004, \"end\": 115.125, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 115.125, \"end\": 115.225, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 115.225, \"end\": 115.325, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 115.325, \"end\": 115.345, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 115.345, \"end\": 115.465, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 115.465, \"end\": 115.725, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 115.725, \"end\": 115.745, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 132.369, \"end\": 150.347, \"text\": \"是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 132.369, \"end\": 132.529, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 132.529, \"end\": 132.649, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 132.649, \"end\": 132.749, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 132.749, \"end\": 132.91, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 132.91, \"end\": 133.07, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 133.07, \"end\": 133.23, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 133.23, \"end\": 133.35, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 133.35, \"end\": 133.47, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 133.47, \"end\": 133.69, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 133.69, \"end\": 133.891, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"科\", \"start\": 133.891, \"end\": 134.011, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 134.011, \"end\": 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\"我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 154.278, \"end\": 154.438, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 154.438, \"end\": 154.538, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 154.538, \"end\": 154.658, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 154.658, \"end\": 155.118, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 155.118, \"end\": 155.278, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 155.278, \"end\": 156.519, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"濾\"}, {\"word\": \"酸\", \"start\": 156.519, \"end\": 156.679, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"胺\", \"start\": 156.679, \"end\": 156.899, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 156.899, \"end\": 157.059, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 157.059, \"end\": 157.159, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 157.159, \"end\": 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161.521, \"end\": 161.681, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 161.681, \"end\": 161.801, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"爆\", \"start\": 161.801, \"end\": 162.001, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"炸\", \"start\": 162.001, \"end\": 162.221, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 162.221, \"end\": 162.581, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 162.581, \"end\": 162.741, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 162.741, \"end\": 162.841, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 162.841, \"end\": 163.461, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"濾\"}, {\"word\": \"酸\", \"start\": 163.461, \"end\": 163.601, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"胺\", \"start\": 163.601, \"end\": 163.861, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 163.861, \"end\": 164.022, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 164.022, \"end\": 164.282, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"磷\", \"start\": 164.282, 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\"end\": 722.879, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 722.879, \"end\": 723.039, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 723.039, \"end\": 723.219, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 723.219, \"end\": 723.239, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 724.565, \"end\": 724.848, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 724.848, \"end\": 724.869, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,670 --> 00:00:02,453\n謝謝主席那我們有請顧部長來部長請社區委員好\n\n2\n00:00:12,117 --> 00:00:32,592\n部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器\n\n3\n00:00:36,275 --> 00:01:02,975\n那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料\n\n4\n00:01:04,215 --> 00:01:05,056\n我們是請中科院回答\n\n5\n00:01:27,564 --> 00:01:31,347\n除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。\n\n6\n00:01:54,824 --> 00:01:55,745\n那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?\n\n7\n00:02:12,369 --> 00:02:30,347\n是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題\n\n8\n00:02:34,278 --> 00:02:50,544\n我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。\n\n9\n00:02:51,844 --> 00:03:07,051\n我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我\n\n10\n00:03:18,891 --> 00:03:20,913\n所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨\n\n11\n00:03:48,806 --> 00:04:01,327\n所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:03,016 --> 00:04:03,737\n還是美方抽菸?\n\n13\n00:04:22,048 --> 00:04:22,728\n這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下\n\n14\n00:04:45,874 --> 00:04:46,114\n我再強調一遍\n\n15\n00:05:12,383 --> 00:05:34,522\n如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。\n\n16\n00:05:39,355 --> 00:05:57,552\n所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品\n\n17\n00:05:58,593 --> 00:06:20,084\n他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況\n\n18\n00:06:21,104 --> 00:06:33,097\n所以我們可以看到就是說呢廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的\n\n19\n00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:36,760\n我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭\n\n20\n00:07:04,124 --> 00:07:06,506\n你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊\n\n21\n00:07:27,722 --> 00:07:28,482\n在JP10的存度應該要是多少?\n\n22\n00:07:54,430 --> 00:08:08,755\n正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。\n\n23\n00:08:09,403 --> 00:08:31,890\n有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%\n\n24\n00:08:34,711 --> 00:08:53,515\n但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制\n\n25\n00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:06,645\n所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了\n\n26\n00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:20,661\n那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿\n\n27\n00:09:49,319 --> 00:10:06,789\n我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎\n\n28\n00:10:09,546 --> 00:10:26,698\n我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣\n\n29\n00:10:27,898 --> 00:10:39,827\n部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中\n\n30\n00:10:44,530 --> 00:11:08,362\n副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準\n\n31\n00:11:09,443 --> 00:11:34,154\n一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導\n\n32\n00:11:35,114 --> 00:12:03,239\n所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆謝謝\n\n33\n00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:04,869\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n670\t2453\t謝謝主席 那我們有請顧部長來 部長請社區委員好\n12117\t32592\t部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器\n36275\t62975\t那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料\n64215\t65056\t我們是請中科院回答\n87564\t91347\t除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。\n114824\t115745\t那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?\n132369\t150347\t是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題\n154278\t170544\t我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。\n171844\t187051\t我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我\n198891\t200913\t所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨\n228806\t241327\t所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?\n243016\t243737\t還是美方抽菸?\n262048\t262728\t這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下\n285874\t286114\t我再強調一遍\n312383\t334522\t如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。\n339355\t357552\t所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品\n358593\t380084\t他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況\n381104\t393097\t所以我們可以看到就是說呢 廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的\n396220\t396760\t我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭\n424124\t426506\t你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊\n447722\t448482\t在JP10的存度應該要是多少?\n474430\t488755\t正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。\n489403\t511890\t有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%\n514711\t533515\t但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制\n538556\t546645\t所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了\n559580\t560661\t那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿\n589319\t606789\t我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎\n609546\t626698\t我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣\n627898\t639827\t部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中\n644530\t668362\t副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準\n669443\t694154\t一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導\n695114\t723239\t所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆 謝謝\n724565\t724869\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那我們有請顧部長來 部長請社區委員好\n部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器\n那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料\n我們是請中科院回答\n除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。\n那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?\n是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題\n我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。\n我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我\n所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨\n所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?\n還是美方抽菸?\n這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下\n我再強調一遍\n如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。\n所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品\n他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況\n所以我們可以看到就是說呢 廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的\n我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭\n你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊\n在JP10的存度應該要是多少?\n正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。\n有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%\n但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制\n所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了\n那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿\n我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎\n我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣\n部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中\n副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準\n一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導\n所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆 謝謝\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.670 --> 00:02.453\n謝謝主席那我們有請顧部長來部長請社區委員好\n\n00:12.117 --> 00:32.592\n部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器\n\n00:36.275 --> 01:02.975\n那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料\n\n01:04.215 --> 01:05.056\n我們是請中科院回答\n\n01:27.564 --> 01:31.347\n除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。\n\n01:54.824 --> 01:55.745\n那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?\n\n02:12.369 --> 02:30.347\n是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題\n\n02:34.278 --> 02:50.544\n我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。\n\n02:51.844 --> 03:07.051\n我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我\n\n03:18.891 --> 03:20.913\n所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨\n\n03:48.806 --> 04:01.327\n所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?\n\n04:03.016 --> 04:03.737\n還是美方抽菸?\n\n04:22.048 --> 04:22.728\n這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下\n\n04:45.874 --> 04:46.114\n我再強調一遍\n\n05:12.383 --> 05:34.522\n如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。\n\n05:39.355 --> 05:57.552\n所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品\n\n05:58.593 --> 06:20.084\n他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況\n\n06:21.104 --> 06:33.097\n所以我們可以看到就是說呢廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的\n\n06:36.220 --> 06:36.760\n我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭\n\n07:04.124 --> 07:06.506\n你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊\n\n07:27.722 --> 07:28.482\n在JP10的存度應該要是多少?\n\n07:54.430 --> 08:08.755\n正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。\n\n08:09.403 --> 08:31.890\n有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%\n\n08:34.711 --> 08:53.515\n但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制\n\n08:58.556 --> 09:06.645\n所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了\n\n09:19.580 --> 09:20.661\n那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿\n\n09:49.319 --> 10:06.789\n我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎\n\n10:09.546 --> 10:26.698\n我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣\n\n10:27.898 --> 10:39.827\n部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中\n\n10:44.530 --> 11:08.362\n副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準\n\n11:09.443 --> 11:34.154\n一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導\n\n11:35.114 --> 12:03.239\n所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆謝謝\n\n12:04.565 --> 12:04.869\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.67,"end":2.453,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請顧部長來 部長請社區委員好"},{"start":12.117,"end":32.592,"text":"部長好,我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要事關我們在飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致以及是否能夠達到預期的效果首先我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質我們先看第一個就是過濾酸M這個AP固態的推進器"},{"start":36.275,"end":62.975,"text":"那過濾酸呢是過濾酸胺的原料過濾酸胺可以說呢它是固態的等同過濾酸胺的半成品我們就統一呢叫它AP非氮的固態推進器那呢它的這個過濾酸胺的成品為切割符合這個需求的球狀目前有規格兩種直徑225跟400微米那它是美國管制出口的關鍵的原料"},{"start":64.215,"end":65.056,"text":"我們是請中科院回答"},{"start":87.564,"end":91.347,"text":"除了第7項沒有使用AP之外,其他都要用到AP,表示過濾箱安在這2400億的特別預算中,可以說是舉足輕重的。"},{"start":114.824,"end":115.745,"text":"那這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過?"},{"start":132.369,"end":150.347,"text":"是我有看到那是不是請中科院來說明那等一下我先講一下齁那這個呢就是齁有三個重點第一個中科院是不是有放水沒有按照合約送驗第二個呢是不是有零含量超標嚴重的問題第三個是不是有廢品過多有200噸放在廠區的問題"},{"start":154.278,"end":170.544,"text":"我直接很簡單回答,過濾酸胺它是一個強烈的氧化劑,如果過濾酸胺碰到磷馬上就爆炸了,怎麼可能過濾酸胺裡面含磷呢?所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導,真的,我們不用相信它,真的。"},{"start":171.844,"end":187.051,"text":"我們來看一下我們接下來有2400億的抗中的飛彈在去年112月向美國太平洋公司進口163噸市價台幣8000萬的過濾酸胺我們看到的是第一點是我們有沒有按合約送驗這個問題你還沒有回答我"},{"start":198.891,"end":200.913,"text":"所以不需要驗收也沒有關係?如果我製造不成的話我當然就退貨"},{"start":228.806,"end":241.327,"text":"所以有檢驗?當然有檢驗。好,你們有檢驗就對了。是。好,所以呢,好,那我們看一下,那美國這個,你是怎麼檢驗的?你是第三方抽驗嗎?"},{"start":243.016,"end":243.737,"text":"還是美方抽菸?"},{"start":262.048,"end":262.728,"text":"這沒有錯,美國來的是你說是比較好,但是我們來看一下"},{"start":285.874,"end":286.114,"text":"我再強調一遍"},{"start":312.383,"end":334.522,"text":"如果氯酸胺碰到零的話,它就直接爆炸了。沒有,那請問它這個SGS怎麼做的?是爆炸來做的嗎?所以說我覺得這個檢驗報告真的我們大家有待評論一下。你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的。我建議這個報告我們要在事實查核一下。你說要在事實查核一下,那你認為SGS報告是有問題的是嗎?是的,我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的。"},{"start":339.355,"end":357.552,"text":"所以你認為這個報告是有錯的但是我告訴你一下這已經不是第一次有人去查核了這是第二份以上有人去SGS去查核這些從美國寄到貨的一些相關的這些美國寄來的樣品那美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品"},{"start":358.593,"end":380.084,"text":"他在送到台灣的時候在樣品上面來說是有些微的不正常但是還算是可以但他的大貨送到我們香港的表面抽樣的時候就開始比例開始不正常了在大貨桶內的抽樣的時候就是極端的不正常的情況"},{"start":381.104,"end":393.097,"text":"所以我們可以看到就是說呢 廠商給了我們的大貨那在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP但是呢在裡面來講的話是會有問題的"},{"start":396.22,"end":396.76,"text":"我必須要強調我製造飛彈的固態火箭"},{"start":424.124,"end":426.506,"text":"你精煉出來的東西那當然是後續嘛但是你前面你還是會有他的原料啊"},{"start":447.722,"end":448.482,"text":"在JP10的存度應該要是多少?"},{"start":474.43,"end":488.755,"text":"正常的話,我們希望它的純度是越高越好。多少呢?我們現在精煉出來之後的JP10都到99%以上。99%以上,那有沒有加入其他的化學物?有,這我不方便講。"},{"start":489.403,"end":511.89,"text":"有嘛,你沒有不方便講的問題,因為其實呢他這個資料是有可以看到但在美國的軍方的資料裡面我可以給大家看一下正版的美軍軍規裡面呢他很清楚的看到這是我們有花14塊美金來解鎖的美軍的軍規裡面他寫到外四侵二環誤二析必須要介於98.5%到100%"},{"start":514.711,"end":533.515,"text":"但是在我們的JP10裡面是只要在加劑了相關化合物裡面有達到98.5%就算合格那你認為現在台灣的這個JP10跟美國官方的這個軍規的JP10有相符合嗎?沒有,所以他正在接受我們的輔導產制"},{"start":538.556,"end":546.645,"text":"所以你們要介紹那所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況那已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的委員沒有沒有那什麼時候才會因為你現在的這個查核情形那你看到的是我們現在你說中科院採購作業已經周延了"},{"start":559.58,"end":560.661,"text":"那我現在就在針對這個部分在詢問阿"},{"start":589.319,"end":606.789,"text":"我詢問你的中華化工公司你告訴我說以真周延但是他就是還加入了其他的化合物那你告訴我以真周延但又不符合美國的軍規你說你還在輔導他但是你告訴我已經非常周延了這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎"},{"start":609.546,"end":626.698,"text":"我們說以針周延是我們輔導他他已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範但是我沒有辦法把他量產我們同時輔導國家所以沒有辦法把他量產但以針周延對是這樣子喔所以你以針周延的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣"},{"start":627.898,"end":639.827,"text":"部長你是法律人喔?你看到以真周言的感覺是什麼?是已經完成了呢?還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子?原來以真周言的解釋是說還沒有辦法量產那只是說我們還在輔導當中"},{"start":644.53,"end":668.362,"text":"副長最後一點時間給你回答好不好副長院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下好請再要為我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP10來增加他的產量那接受我的輔導他已經能夠做初步做出來的話我們就認為他好你已經完成我的輔導但是最後你要我要下單跟你量產驗收的話你必須要通過我的驗收標準"},{"start":669.443,"end":694.154,"text":"一個是接受輔導他合格了一個是我可以下單跟你量產這是完全不同的定義你123不都講說沒有疑慮嗎你看你上面寫的powerpoint上中華化工產能無疑慮中華化工交貨品質無疑慮中科院採購作業以增周延這是你上面自己寫的然後你現在又告訴我說他還不能跟你下單他還不能跟你交貨因為你還在輔導"},{"start":695.114,"end":723.239,"text":"所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容明顯肉眼可見是不一樣我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢台上備詢台上還要跟我硬拗所以因為我的時間已經到了謝謝朝偉還多給我一點時間講但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣所以不管你的態度再如何的強硬所有人都可以看到就是不一樣不一樣就是不一樣所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告用書面回覆 謝謝"},{"start":724.565,"end":724.869,"text":"主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時13分）謝謝主席，我們有請顧部長。"],["主席：顧部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好，我們今天要討論的議題嚴肅而且重要，事關我們的飛彈在戰爭時期燃燒的速度是否能夠一致，以及是否能夠達到預期的效果。首先，我們知道在飛彈當中有許多的物質，我們先看第一個就是過氯酸銨，這個AP，固態的推進器，過氯酸是過氯酸銨的原料，過氯酸銨可以說它是固態的，等同過氯酸銨的半成品我們就統一叫它AP，飛彈的固態推進器。過氯酸銨的成品，為切割成符合需求的球狀，目前有兩種規格，直徑225跟400微米，它是美國管制出口的關鍵原料，意思就是，美商需要經過美國政府點頭才能夠出口。第一個問題想要請教，我們在海空戰力提升計畫的採購特別條例，2,400億的預算裡面有八個項目，想要請問一下部長，你知不知道這八個項目裡面有哪幾項都需要用到這個AP，過氯酸銨？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是不是請中科院來回答？"],["李院長世強：報告，除了第七和第八項，不對，第七項裡面的武器也需要，所以除了第八項之外，其他都有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下答案。李院長說除了第七項之外都有需要，除了第七項沒有使用AP之外，其他都要用到AP，表示過氯酸銨在這2,400億的特別預算中，可以說是舉足輕重的。其實先前菱傳媒有出版一個報導，關於中科院外購過氯酸銨出包的問題，就是因為磷成分過高，抗中的飛彈射程只有勉強過低標而已，這個報導不曉得部長您有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我有看到，是不是請中科院來說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：等一下，我先講一下。這個問題有三個重點，第一個，中科院是不是有放水，沒有按照合約送驗？第二個，是不是有磷含量超標嚴重的問題？第三個，是不是有廢品過多，有200噸放在廠區的問題？"],["李院長世強：委員，我直接很簡單的回答，過氯酸銨它是一個強烈的氧化劑，如果過氯酸銨碰到磷，馬上就爆炸了，怎麼可能過氯酸銨裡面含磷呢？所以這個報導就是一種錯誤訊息的報導，真的，委員不用相信它，真的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們來看一下，我們接下來有2,400億的抗中飛彈嘛，在去年（112年）向美國太平洋公司進口163噸，市價臺幣8,000萬的過氯酸銨，我們看到的是，第一點，我們有沒有按合約送驗？這個問題你還沒有回答我。"],["李院長世強：委員，過氯酸銨它只是我們製造固態火箭的一個前驅物質，所有的過氯酸銨，不管是國產的，或者是進口的，我們都必須要經過我再精煉，之後才能夠去用在我的固態火箭上。所以有關這個前驅物質，它在精煉的過程中間自然會有我的倒置和工法，這跟驗收無關。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不需要驗收也沒有關係？"],["李院長世強：如果我製造不成的話，我當然就退貨。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有檢驗。"],["李院長世強：當然有檢驗。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你們有檢驗就對了。"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們看一下，美國這個部分你是怎麼檢驗的？你是第三方抽驗嗎？還是美方抽驗？"],["李院長世強：委員，我再強調一遍，過氯酸銨是我製造固態火箭的前驅物質，我們所謂檢驗，就是在我再煉化的過程中，只要它的煉化有問題的話，就代表它的成分有問題。正常來講前驅物質，其實過氯酸銨很簡單，它就是過氯酸和氨水的混合物，就是這樣，那我在再精煉的過程中間能夠精煉多少出來，就是它的成分有多少。我們現在有兩個來源，一個是從美國進口，一個是臺灣的中國石化，事實上來講的話，美國進口的原料比中國石化的好，而且中國石化是我們輔導它產製出來的。"],["徐委員巧芯：這沒有錯，美國來的你說比較好，但是我們來看一下，美國寄來的樣品有三個階段，我可以給你看一下，有吹哨者拿去SGS做了這個檢測，送來樣品的檢測，在鈣跟磷的部分，它是2.2比1，在鈣跟磷的部分，正常來說，請問鈣跟磷的比例應該要是多少？"],["李院長世強：委員，我再強調一遍，如果過氯酸銨碰到磷的話，它就直接爆炸了，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，那請問他這SGS怎麼做的？是爆炸來做的嗎？"],["李院長世強：所以我覺得這個檢驗報告，真的，我們大家要小心……"],["徐委員巧芯：你說SGS的檢驗報告是有誤的？"],["李院長世強：我建議這個報告，我們要再事實查核一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說要再事實查核一下，那你認為SGS的報告是有問題的，是嗎？"],["李院長世強：是的，我認為這份報告應該它中間有一些錯誤的，必須要……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為這個報告是有錯的？但是我告訴你一下，這已經不是第一次有人去查核了，這是第二份以上有人去SGS查核相關的這些美國寄來的樣品。美國太平洋公司寄來的樣品在送到臺灣的時候，在樣品上面來說有些微的不正常，但是還算是可以，但它的大貨送到我們港以後進行表面抽樣的時候，比例就開始不正常了，在大貨桶內抽樣的時候，就是極端的、不正常的情況。所以我們可以看到，廠商給了我們的大貨，在表面上面是有一些看起來是比較符合的AP，但是在裡面來講的話，是會有問題的，這也會讓大家感到相當的憂心。所以下一批貨是在11月向美國太平洋公司進行181噸，市值9,000萬的AP，看到這邊來講的話，你還是秉持相同的看法，是一樣進貨，用一樣原本的方式進行檢驗，是嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，我必須這樣強調，我製造飛彈的固態火箭，AP只是一個前驅物質，它必須要經過我的工法再精煉，我們對自己的工法非常有信心，這是所有製造國防工業的基礎。中科院對我們自己的火工非常有信心，我們也相信我們精煉出來的固態火箭原料沒有問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你精煉出來的東西當然是後續，但是在前面你還是會有它的原料啊！"],["李院長世強：委員，所以我們有兩種原料，一種是國內我輔導出來的中國石化產製原料，一個是從美國進口的原料，在我們再精煉的過程中，我們覺得第二種比較好。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們再看一下第二個，好不好？就是在JP的部分，除了固態的部分，還有液態的部分。在液態的部分，我想請問一下，JP-10的純度應該要是多少？"],["李院長世強：正常的話，我們希望它的純度是越高越好。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少呢？"],["李院長世強：我們現在精煉出來之後的JP-10都到99%以上。"],["徐委員巧芯：99%以上？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有加入其他的化學物？"],["李院長世強：有，這我不方便講。"],["徐委員巧芯：有嘛！你沒有不方便講的問題，因為其實這個資料是可以看到的，但是在美國軍方的資料裡面，我可以給大家看一下，在正版的美軍軍規裡面很清楚地看到，這是我們花14塊美金來解鎖的，在美軍軍規裡面寫到外四氫─二環戊二烯必須要介於98.5%到100%，但在我們的JP-10裡面是只要再加計相關化合物有達到98.5%就算合格，你認為現在臺灣的JP-10跟美國官方軍規的JP-10有相符合嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有，所以它正在接受我們的輔導產製。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以過去有多久的期間是已經這樣子的狀況、已經填充進我們的飛彈當中的？"],["李院長世強：委員，沒有！"],["徐委員巧芯：都沒有？那什麼時候才會……"],["李院長世強：這不可能的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為依現在的查核情形，你說現在中科院採購作業已經周延了，然後你也說這個東西跟其他的氫化合物加在一起，你認為這是可以的，你現在又告訴我跟美軍的軍規不一樣，所以你正在輔導當中，既然是還在輔導當中，那又怎麼會已經周延呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，我們不是同時只有輔導一家廠商。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在就針對這個部分在詢問啊？"],["李院長世強：所以它沒有通過我的檢驗，我當然不可能把它充填進我製造的武器，這是我們的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：我詢問你的中華化工公司，你告訴我已臻周延，但它就是還加入了其他的化合物，又不符合美國的軍規，你說你還在輔導它，但是你告訴我已經非常周延了，這兩句話不是矛盾的嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，我們說已臻周延是我們輔導它，它已經初步通過我們可以生產的規範，但是我沒有辦法把它量產，我們同時輔導國家……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以沒有辦法把它量產，但已臻周延？"],["李院長世強：對！"],["徐委員巧芯：是這樣子喔？"],["李院長世強：我們同時輔導……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你「已臻周延」的定義好像跟我們一般人理解的不一樣？","最後一點時間，部長，你是法律人，你看到「已臻周延」的感覺是什麼？是已經完成了呢？還是像剛才我們院長講的這樣子，原來「已臻周延」的解釋是還沒有辦法量產，只是我們還在輔導當中。部長，最後一點時間給你回答，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：院長剛剛要講的最後一句話讓他講一下。"],["主席：好，請摘要。"],["李院長世強：委員，我同時輔導國內很多家廠商在做JP-10來增加它的產量，那接受我的輔導，它已經能夠初步做出來的話，我們就認為它已經完成我的輔導，但是最後我要下單跟你量產驗收的話，你必須要通過我的驗收標準，一個是接受輔導，它合格了，一個是我可以下單跟你量產，這是完全不同的定義。"],["徐委員巧芯：你一、二、三點不是都說沒有疑慮嗎？你看在PowerPoint上面寫的：中華化工產能無疑慮；中華化工交貨品質無疑慮；中科院採購作業已臻周延。這是你上面自己寫的，然後你現在又告訴我說它還不能跟你下單，它還不能跟你交貨，因為你還在輔導，所以我想你剛剛講的東西跟你給我的內容，肉眼明顯可見是不一樣，我不曉得為什麼今天在質詢臺上、備詢臺上還要跟我硬拗？因為我的時間已經到了，謝謝召委還多給我一點時間講，但是我想今天上面寫的東西跟你講的東西，今天所有的人都可以看得出來不一樣，不管你的態度再如何強硬，所有人都可以看到就是不一樣，不一樣就是不一樣，所以我希望可以再給我們更精細的報告，用書面回復，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來進行詢答的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-5","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","洪申翰","林憶君","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林岱樺","鍾佳濱","馬文君","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","徐富癸","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00001"}}}