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00:00:13,517\n請問主席今天只有法務部嗎那有請我們法務部鄭部長有請鄭部長委員早不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面\n\n2\n00:00:31,704 --> 00:00:56,637\n那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法\n\n3\n00:01:02,125 --> 00:01:02,385\n的確是反這個\n\n4\n00:01:27,419 --> 00:01:31,066\n這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣\n\n5\n00:01:33,211 --> 00:01:56,907\n我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這個問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題那這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話我們當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局局長來做一個一個\n\n6\n00:01:57,868 --> 00:02:21,215\n可以啊我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎\n\n7\n00:02:27,097 --> 00:02:49,149\n至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對\n\n8\n00:02:51,031 --> 00:03:13,574\n我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。\n\n9\n00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:39,817\n這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個\n\n10\n00:03:43,780 --> 00:03:44,060\n李卓人議員\n\n11\n00:04:03,908 --> 00:04:04,328\n外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢\n\n12\n00:04:27,625 --> 00:04:45,167\n你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?\n\n13\n00:04:47,935 --> 00:04:49,076\n我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了請回來我要來今天正入\n\n14\n00:05:07,734 --> 00:05:07,934\n主席\n\n15\n00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:54,591\n這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備\n\n16\n00:05:56,838 --> 00:05:59,420\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n\n17\n00:06:17,770 --> 00:06:41,755\n14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得\n\n18\n00:06:42,555 --> 00:07:07,194\n去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看\n\n19\n00:07:08,910 --> 00:07:25,415\n這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去\n\n20\n00:07:30,899 --> 00:07:34,560\n你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責\n\n21\n00:07:56,647 --> 00:08:10,184\n他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊\n\n22\n00:08:15,601 --> 00:08:41,539\n那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了\n\n23\n00:08:42,563 --> 00:09:03,175\n這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡\n\n24\n00:09:03,795 --> 00:09:24,940\n我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向\n\n25\n00:09:33,777 --> 00:09:51,661\n謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個\n\n26\n00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:56,721\n我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚\n\n27\n00:10:18,018 --> 00:10:40,255\n在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭\n\n28\n00:10:41,897 --> 00:11:08,702\n可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話\n\n29\n00:11:10,401 --> 00:11:14,423\n司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題\n\n30\n00:11:32,688 --> 00:11:47,080\n刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞\n\n31\n00:11:50,176 --> 00:12:06,483\n我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭\n\n32\n00:12:08,899 --> 00:12:10,861\n會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?\n\n33\n00:12:24,477 --> 00:12:44,430\n法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人\n\n34\n00:12:45,450 --> 00:13:11,745\n請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有\n\n35\n00:13:13,292 --> 00:13:29,529\n即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊\n\n36\n00:13:30,820 --> 00:13:37,086\n他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7254\t13517\t請問主席今天只有法務部嗎那有請我們法務部鄭部長有請鄭部長委員早不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面\n31704\t56637\t那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法\n62125\t62385\t的確是反這個\n87419\t91066\t這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣\n93211\t116907\t我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這個問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題那這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話我們當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局局長來做一個一個\n117868\t141215\t可以啊 我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎\n147097\t169149\t至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對\n171031\t193574\t我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。\n194400\t219817\t這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個\n223780\t224060\t李卓人議員\n243908\t244328\t外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢\n267625\t285167\t你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?\n287935\t289076\t我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了 請回來我要來今天正入\n307734\t307934\t主席\n328400\t354591\t這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備\n356838\t359420\t立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n377770\t401755\t14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得\n402555\t427194\t去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看\n428910\t445415\t這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去\n450899\t454560\t你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責\n476647\t490184\t他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊\n495601\t521539\t那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了\n522563\t543175\t這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡\n543795\t564940\t我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向\n573777\t591661\t謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個\n593919\t596721\t我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚\n618018\t640255\t在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭\n641897\t668702\t可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話\n670401\t674423\t司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題\n692688\t707080\t刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞\n710176\t726483\t我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭\n728899\t730861\t會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?\n744477\t764430\t法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人\n765450\t791745\t請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有\n793292\t809529\t即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊\n810820\t817086\t他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟\n","txt":"請問主席今天只有法務部嗎那有請我們法務部鄭部長有請鄭部長委員早不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面\n那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法\n的確是反這個\n這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣\n我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這個問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題那這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話我們當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局局長來做一個一個\n可以啊 我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎\n至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對\n我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。\n這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個\n李卓人議員\n外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢\n你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?\n我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了 請回來我要來今天正入\n主席\n這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得\n去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看\n這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去\n你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責\n他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊\n那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了\n這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡\n我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向\n謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個\n我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚\n在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭\n可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話\n司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題\n刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞\n我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭\n會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?\n法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人\n請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有\n即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊\n他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.254 --> 00:13.517\n請問主席今天只有法務部嗎那有請我們法務部鄭部長有請鄭部長委員早不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面\n\n00:31.704 --> 00:56.637\n那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法\n\n01:02.125 --> 01:02.385\n的確是反這個\n\n01:27.419 --> 01:31.066\n這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣\n\n01:33.211 --> 01:56.907\n我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這個問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題那這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話我們當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局局長來做一個一個\n\n01:57.868 --> 02:21.215\n可以啊我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎\n\n02:27.097 --> 02:49.149\n至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對\n\n02:51.031 --> 03:13.574\n我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。\n\n03:14.400 --> 03:39.817\n這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個\n\n03:43.780 --> 03:44.060\n李卓人議員\n\n04:03.908 --> 04:04.328\n外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢\n\n04:27.625 --> 04:45.167\n你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?\n\n04:47.935 --> 04:49.076\n我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了請回來我要來今天正入\n\n05:07.734 --> 05:07.934\n主席\n\n05:28.400 --> 05:54.591\n這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備\n\n05:56.838 --> 05:59.420\n立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會\n\n06:17.770 --> 06:41.755\n14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得\n\n06:42.555 --> 07:07.194\n去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看\n\n07:08.910 --> 07:25.415\n這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去\n\n07:30.899 --> 07:34.560\n你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責\n\n07:56.647 --> 08:10.184\n他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊\n\n08:15.601 --> 08:41.539\n那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了\n\n08:42.563 --> 09:03.175\n這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡\n\n09:03.795 --> 09:24.940\n我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向\n\n09:33.777 --> 09:51.661\n謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個\n\n09:53.919 --> 09:56.721\n我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚\n\n10:18.018 --> 10:40.255\n在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭\n\n10:41.897 --> 11:08.702\n可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話\n\n11:10.401 --> 11:14.423\n司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題\n\n11:32.688 --> 11:47.080\n刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞\n\n11:50.176 --> 12:06.483\n我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭\n\n12:08.899 --> 12:10.861\n會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?\n\n12:24.477 --> 12:44.430\n法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人\n\n12:45.450 --> 13:11.745\n請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有\n\n13:13.292 --> 13:29.529\n即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊\n\n13:30.820 --> 13:37.086\n他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.254,"end":13.517,"text":"請問主席今天只有法務部嗎那有請我們法務部鄭部長有請鄭部長委員早不讓早我想首先我來針對一個時事題來就教一下你的看法是怎麼樣我今天看早上的一個質詢裡面大家幾乎在細節裡面"},{"start":31.704,"end":56.637,"text":"那針對我看昨天媒體大家有看到了美國戰略跟國際問題研究中心發布關於這個中國反分裂國家法這個明年20週年那他們可能就是說他們要去修法去修法以後為以後使用武力統一台灣提供一個合法性我不曉得站在法務部你的立場裡面你的看法裡面這個到底我們是應該去修改國內法"},{"start":62.125,"end":62.385,"text":"的確是反這個"},{"start":87.419,"end":91.066,"text":"這個反分類國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣"},{"start":93.211,"end":116.907,"text":"我國人民的一些的這些的恐懼當然會那我想委員關心這個問題這是非常重要的一個國安的一個問題那這部分我們是贊成如果說有制定新法的必要的話我們當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的這部分詳細的是不是可以請調查局局長來做一個一個"},{"start":117.868,"end":141.215,"text":"可以啊 我反而倒會認為說你至少法務部針對這一些你會認為說那是老共強的鑰匙我們也不用去擬他你看昨天那個毛寧被外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候日本的記者就問他嘛他就直接講這個是中國的內政任何國家都不能干涉他的講法就非常強悍啊那比強悍他就叫做後製小本啊我以為部長你會講得很強你知道嗎"},{"start":147.097,"end":169.149,"text":"至少像面對這種問題不能說法務部都沒有關係阿好像就會覺得說阿沒辦法阿他要怎麼做我們沒辦法阿但我認為態度不應該是如此阿我一直在觀察這種問題的時候阿面對中國這樣修訂法律對台灣民眾有所衝擊的時候法務部這一體幾乎都是缺席的我認為這不對"},{"start":171.031,"end":193.574,"text":"我認為不對,你至少有很多智庫嘛,法務部裡面有很多專家嘛,既就法務部你還可以單槓一個,你適度的一個發言,這可以很有安定民心的一個作用啊,這不只是總統的成績,這也不是只有這個整個行政院的成績啊,你小小的一個中國的外交部的一個發言人,然後你就出來給你指三道四啦。"},{"start":194.4,"end":219.817,"text":"這個部分我想說委員請容我表達一下我的看法我想中國他雖然他以他的內政為理由來拒絕外國的干預但是我想中國以內政的理由也不可能也不應該在這個法律上面對台灣有這樣子的一個敵意武力攻擊的這樣子的一個法律的規範這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話是一個"},{"start":223.78,"end":224.06,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":243.908,"end":244.328,"text":"外交國安委員會備詢外交國安委員會備詢"},{"start":267.625,"end":285.167,"text":"你的態度是什麼?我們當然是非常的不同意啊,對啊,非常不同意中國這樣子的一個做法你不能跟人家說不同意啊,你不能跟人家說不同意啊,我認為這個在國會殿堂上這樣打都不及格啦然後說你說不同意,你不同意那民眾說啊?法務部在司法委員裡面說不同意捏,這樣就好了?"},{"start":287.935,"end":289.076,"text":"我是覺得這樣太過於微弱了 請回來我要來今天正入"},{"start":307.734,"end":307.934,"text":"主席"},{"start":328.4,"end":354.591,"text":"這樣的一個討論有助於我們整個實質修法的一個建議在我們憲法第78條裡面去講司法院本來就是解釋憲法跟統一解釋法律跟命令所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決不要去談拘束力的當然會一定會有拘束力所以我要請教部長的就是說就變成說我們大家在討論討論就是說如何針對整個程序讓它更完備"},{"start":356.838,"end":359.42,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第5次全體委員會"},{"start":377.77,"end":401.755,"text":"14歲以下的那些你根本你也沒辦法幫他怎樣那甚至於啊說你到如果說我們憲法的我們刑法的一個規定如果說14歲以上不到18歲他認為他的罪責能力就比較低甚至於80歲以上或者精神障礙甚至於陰陽或心智缺陷辨識能力在行為時他降低的時候這些都不得"},{"start":402.555,"end":427.194,"text":"去處以極刑所以都要去減輕啦那這法律效果來講目前是減輕可是法律實務上我相信也沒有人會認為說未滿18歲啦或者說這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人去把他處以極刑就是死刑啦但是這次修法來看的話我不曉得針對憲判制這樣第8號提出來第7點部長你的看法未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看"},{"start":428.91,"end":445.415,"text":"這部分我們有提出那個根據這個憲法憲判意旨我們有就刑法63條做一個提出的一個修正的一個草案因為這個也是跟的也是配合那個憲法現在刑法19條的那當然啦那當然啦所以你現在就是說那個刑法63條那你從哪裡放進去"},{"start":450.899,"end":454.56,"text":"你本來我一直在想說你那個19條第二項後段本來是得檢清其刑嘛那些得你做一個修改我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為說這個就是在廢死了我們也不是什麼樣的狀況什麼樣的一個犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑那像這一種很明顯的在罪責"},{"start":476.647,"end":490.184,"text":"他根本就不足以來在他行為階段的時候去辨識他在做這件事情的時候,或者判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣,他去做這樣一個犯罪行為的時候,你說要被處罰到那裡,就等於我們民間常常在說的,剛好笑的就在旁邊啦,剛好笑的就在旁邊"},{"start":495.601,"end":521.539,"text":"那個委員包括我們63條那個修正常是有那個19第2項那個情形他是19是得檢嘛那在63條我們的修正常是把他是不得處死刑這是配合那個宪判制8號的一個解釋那所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來我們這個有請求小組我們就提了那我想我們盡快做法制作業我們盡快都要報到行政院好那我另外啊要來就教了"},{"start":522.563,"end":543.175,"text":"這個就是一個大問題了我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的一個進度跟建議我一直都認為立法院裡面當然在修法必須要去回應民意但是我們也必須要去謹慎牽一髮而動全身在高度專業跟民意之間你必須要去做一個平衡"},{"start":543.795,"end":564.94,"text":"我相信部長這邊應該也去看到了你們的業務報告要推動國家司法科學研究院在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查以目前來看的話你這個組織法跟現行法務部法醫研究所你們到底有什麼具體的差別嗎我是不希望他只是換湯不換藥你的方向"},{"start":573.777,"end":591.661,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那基本上就是說差距完全是不一樣的怎麼說呢我們如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話我們會負責國家司法科學的一個政策的擬定還有這個"},{"start":593.919,"end":596.721,"text":"我比較擔心的是當事人的防禦權的問題我們都很清楚"},{"start":618.018,"end":640.255,"text":"在一個審判庭上齁所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據除了那些例外以外全部都是傳聞喔那你這個如果升格以後提升上來以後它變成是一個權威的一個鑑定機構那你現在鑑定人除非雙方同意當事人同意或者那另外兩項例外不用倒庭"},{"start":641.897,"end":668.702,"text":"可以有證據能力嗎我現在很擔心的是說你現在變一個你把它當成是一個我們修法完以後把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院那你這個鑑定出來機關的名義出去那又變成形成傳聞法則的一個例外這樣到時候如果說你的這個鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話"},{"start":670.401,"end":674.423,"text":"司法研究院作出的一個鑑定報告是機關出去喔阿人不用倒庭這樣哪通這樣通嗎報委沒有這個問題阿為什麼沒有這個問題"},{"start":692.688,"end":707.08,"text":"刑事訴訟法偵查審判的時候還是要由檢察官法官來指揮檢察官法官如果認為有必要還是可以傳鑑定人到場來作證我們上次在修去年在修刑事訴訟法這個地方就出現漏洞"},{"start":710.176,"end":726.483,"text":"我們當初是在講說你那個例外是在講當事人民事同意還有依法執掌類型像譬如說內政部刑事警察局法務部調查局衛部司官署還是說主管機關認定的醫院實驗室團體符合這一些都不用出庭"},{"start":728.899,"end":730.861,"text":"會不會有妨礙到當事人在訴訟上攻防,尤其他的權益的問題?"},{"start":744.477,"end":764.43,"text":"法委沒有這個問題,原則上有政績能力,但是必要的時候,當事人、被告或律師還是可以來請求傳喚是啦,你講的那個是法院,如果案子我在審,當然我可以把鑑定人"},{"start":765.45,"end":791.745,"text":"請到法院上來接受兩照或者是訴訟辯護人的他的一個他之間的一個結論嘛那當然可以那如果他不要呢他就直接跟你這樣講咧來來市長根文報告齁即使在機關鑑定的狀況下我們現行法行使法規範還是可以請求他道願來說明跟這個相關鑑定的要道願說明他並沒有排除鑑定的道願說明可是因為我們有創設例外啊因為訴訟法現在有"},{"start":793.292,"end":809.529,"text":"即使機關鑑定他現在多了一個他必須要拒明跟拒絕吧而且必須要到法院來說明他有規定我現在比較擔心的就是說對於不利益的一個鑑定喔那我們刑事訴訟裡面這樣的一個規定裡面那法官他也有可能我相信權威啊"},{"start":810.82,"end":817.086,"text":"他沒有免除這個鑑定的道庭說明的義務未來還是要說明所以我是比較擔心不會造成這種狀況好謝謝謝謝莊委員謝謝部長次長跟"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":681,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時12分）請問主席，今天只有法務部嘛？好，那有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長早。首先我針對一個時事題就教你的看法是怎麼樣，早上大家的質詢幾乎都在於細節，昨天在媒體上大家看到，美國的戰略與國際問題研究中心發布，關於中國反分裂國家法，明年20週年，可能就是他們要去修法，為以後使用武力統一臺灣提供合法性。我不曉得站在法務部的立場，你的看法上，到底我們是應該去修改國內法，或者我們應該把整個問題帶到整個國際法庭上，不曉得法務部部長，面對比如中國的反分裂國家法再次做修正的話，這對國人產生很大的衝擊嘛！你有沒有什麼想法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：反分裂國家法這部分的確是有造成我們臺灣、我國人民的一些……"],["莊委員瑞雄：恐懼，當然會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心這個問題，這是非常重要的一個國安問題，這部分我們是贊成，如果有制定新法的必要的話，當然以我們本部來講只能用國際法的……詳細部分是不是我可以請調查局局長答復？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以，我反倒會認為至少法務部針對這一些，你會認為那是老共強得要死，我們也不用去理他，你看昨天外交部發言人毛寧被問到這個問題的時候，日本的記者問他，他就直接講這個是中國的內政，任何國家都不能干涉，他的講法就非常強悍。比強悍的話，這叫做潑水相噴啊！我以為部長你會講得很強，你知道嗎？至少像面對這種問題，不能說法務部都沒有關係，好像就覺得沒辦法，阿共仔要怎麼做，我們也對他沒辦法啊！但我認為態度不應該是如此。我一直在觀察就這種問題，面對中國這樣修訂法律，對臺灣民眾有所衝擊的時候，法務部就這一題幾乎都是缺席的，我認為這不對！我認為不對，至少你有很多智庫，法務部裡面也有很多專家，至少法務部還可以擔當一個適度的發言，這也有安定民心的作用。不只總統層級，這也不是只有整個行政院的層級啊！小小的一個中國外交部的發言人毛寧就出來給你指三道四啦！我不知道部長的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分，委員，請容我表達一下我的看法，中國雖然以它的內政為理由拒絕外國干預，但是我想中國以內政的理由，也不應該在法律上面對臺灣有這樣子的敵意、武力攻擊的一個法律規範。這個部分其實對我們國家來講的話，是一個很直接的威脅。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很微弱，這個聲音都太微弱，在我聽起來聲音都太微弱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當一個老百姓，我聽起來這種聲音都太微弱。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：譬如我們自己本身，我們也有國安法，或者我們會不會調整相關的法律？對於中國這樣子顢頇、單方面制定法律，衝擊到臺灣的民眾，我們也可以做這樣一個很強硬的主張啊！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，昨天剛好我也在外交及國防委員會備詢，這個部分我跟沈伯洋委員做過討論，他也提到其實我們在外患罪的部分應該要有修法的一個表現。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說你們的想法、態度。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你的態度是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：我們當然是非常不同意啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對……"],["陳局長白立：非常不同意中國這樣子的一個作法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能只說不同意，我認為這個在國會殿堂上打分數都不及格啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：哪有說你都不同意！你不同意，民眾想說：啊？法務部在司法及法制委員會裡面他們說不同意耶！這樣就好了喔？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我想這不是我的層級。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不能這樣說，就是因為不是你的層級，你話可以說得很大聲，你知不知道？你譙他也沒關係！我層級就小小地而已，又沒有到總統、行政院長那樣，當然你也可以譙他。我是覺得這樣太過於微弱啦！請回。","我要正式進入今天的主題，上個禮拜專報的時候大家都在討論整個憲判字第8號的爭點，我看立法院大家都去揣測大法官的真正的意圖是不是要廢除死刑？但我反而會認為，這整個討論有助於我們實質修法的建議，憲法第七十八條裡面就講，司法院本來就在於解釋憲法與統一解釋法律及命令，所以大法官會議這樣的一個判決，不要去談拘束力，當然一定會有拘束力。","我要請教部長的是，就變成我們大家在討論，如何針對整個程序讓它更完備，可能憲判字第8號提出來的，就是整個第七點裡面談到的，在刑法第十九條第二項如何把它完備的問題。我想部長，只要坐在這邊的都很清楚，刑罰要處罰一個人，第一個當然是罪責能力，14歲以下的那些你根本也沒辦法把他怎樣。以刑法的規定，如果14歲以上不到18歲，認為他的罪責能力就比較低；80歲以上或者精神障礙，甚至於瘖啞或心智缺陷，辨識能力在行為時降低的時候，這些都不得處以極刑，所以都要減輕。以法律效果來講，目前是減輕，可是法律在實務上，我相信也沒有人會認為，未滿18歲或者這一些看起來心智比較減弱的人，把他處以極刑，就是死刑。但以這次修法來看的話，我不曉得針對憲判字第8號提出來的第七點，部長的看法，未來整個修法的方向你會怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有根據憲判意旨，就刑法第六十三條提出修正的草案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個跟那個也是配合現在刑法第十九條的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然啊！所以你們現在就是針對刑法第六十三條，直接把它放進去？本來我一直在想，第十九條第二項後段本來是「得減輕其刑」，那邊的「得」你們做了一個修改。我也不認為我們社會大眾會認為，這個就是在廢死，我們也不是什麼樣的狀況、什麼樣的犯罪行為全部都會處罰到死刑或者無期徒刑，像這種很明顯在罪責方面根本就不足以辨識他在行為階段去做這件事的時候，其判斷能力跟一般的正常人不一樣，使得他做出這樣的犯罪行為，說要把他處罰到這麼重，就像民間常常在說的，遇到瘋子時，你就閃到一邊去啦！就是遇到瘋子嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，第六十三條的修正草案是有第十九條第二項的那個情形，第十九條是「得減」，我們在第六十三條是把它修正為「不得處死刑」，這個是配合憲判字第8號的解釋。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們這個什麼時候會提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個刑修小組會提，我想我們會儘快進行法制作業，也會儘快報到行政院。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我另外要來就教，這個就是一個大問題了。有關我們國家司法科學研究院組織法的進度跟建議，我一直都認為，立法院的修法必須去回應民意，但是我們也必須謹慎因為牽一髮而動全身，在高度專業跟民意之間，你必須去做一個平衡。我相信部長應該也有看到，你們業務報告裡面指出，要推動國家司法科學研究院，在今年8月的時候就已經送行政院去審查。以目前來看，這個組織法跟現行的法務部法醫研究所到底有什麼具體的差別？我是不希望它只是換湯不換藥，你的方向呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是不是可以請……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，侯寬仁。"],["侯所長寬仁：謝謝委員的關心，基本上差距完全是不一樣的，怎麼說呢？如果升格為國家司法科學研究院的話，我們會負責國家司法科學政策的擬定，還有實驗標準、實驗室認證、人員證照的管理，還有司法科學教育的推動。以我們目前來講，我們只有管實際的鑑定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就不是要管到那邊去啊！我比較擔心的是當事人防禦權的問題。"],["侯所長寬仁：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們都很清楚，在一個審判庭上，所有沒有在審判庭揭示的證據，除了那些例外的以外，全部都是傳聞。如果你這個升格，你把它提升上來以後，它變成一個有權威的鑑定機構，現在鑑定人除非雙方當事人同意，或者有另外那兩項的例外，不用到庭就可以有證據能力。我現在很擔心的是說，你現在把它當成是一個修法完以後，把它提升到整個國家司法科學研究院，這個鑑定出來的結果會以機關的名義出去，又變成形成傳聞法則的例外，這樣到時候如果在你的鑑定過程裡面有出現問題的話，你這個鑑定人不須要到庭接受詰問耶！你們只會說我們這是司法科學研究院做出的鑑定報告，因為這是以機關的名義出去，若人不用到庭的話，這樣可通？這樣通嗎？"],["侯所長寬仁：報告委員，沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：為什麼沒有這個問題？"],["侯所長寬仁：因為事實上刑事訴訟法偵查、審判的時候，還是要由檢察官、法官來指揮，檢察官、法官如果認為有必要，還是可以傳鑑定人到場作證。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們上次（去年）在修刑事訴訟法，這個地方就出現漏洞了。"],["侯所長寬仁：沒有，那是第一時間……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們當初是在講說……你那個例外是在講當事人明示同意，還有依法執掌類型，比如內政部刑警局、法務部調查局、衛福部食藥署，或是主管機關認定的醫院、實驗室或團體，符合這些的都不用出庭耶！這個外界都有所批評啊！當然，這個是比較細，我比較擔心的是，你現在成立以後，用機關的名義出去，會不會妨礙當事人在訴訟上的攻防，尤其是涉及其權益的問題？"],["侯所長寬仁：報告委員，沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會嗎？"],["侯所長寬仁：委員剛剛講，原則上是有證據能力，但是必要的時候，當事人、被告或律師還是可以請求傳喚鑑定的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！你講的那個是法院，如果案子我在審，我當然可以把鑑定人請到法院上來，接受兩造或者訴訟辯護人之間的詰問。這樣當然可以，但是他如果不要的話呢？他就直接這樣跟你講呢？來，次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，即使在機關鑑定的狀況下，我們現行刑事訴訟法的規範還是可以請求他（鑑定人）到院說明，並沒有被排除鑑定人到院說明的義務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是我們有創設例外啊！"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法現在也有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：即使是機關鑑定，現在又多了一個必須具名跟具詰。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["黃次長謀信：而且必須要到法院來說明，它有規定，並沒有免除……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在比較擔心的就是，對被告不利益的鑑定，我們刑事訴訟法裡面這樣規定，法官也有可能相信權威啊！"],["黃次長謀信：但它並沒有免除鑑定人到庭說明的義務，未來還是要說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我是比較擔心啦！"],["黃次長謀信：沒有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會有這種狀況？"],["黃次長謀信：不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝部長、次長。待會在鍾佳濱委員質詢完畢，我們休息10分鐘。","接下來有請吳委員宗憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-5","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138501_00003"}}}