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{\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 469.503, \"end\": 469.523, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 469.523, \"end\": 469.543, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"義\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,083 --> 00:00:00,903\n立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員諮詢。\n\n2\n00:00:24,008 --> 00:00:35,519\n好部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的嘛\n\n3\n00:00:36,854 --> 00:00:59,816\n那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎\n\n4\n00:01:00,416 --> 00:01:24,299\n我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果\n\n5\n00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:29,510\n用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得\n\n6\n00:01:32,082 --> 00:01:56,824\n所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農\n\n7\n00:01:59,186 --> 00:02:20,789\n我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格\n\n8\n00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:44,005\n所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農\n\n9\n00:02:45,486 --> 00:02:59,739\n向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效\n\n10\n00:03:01,215 --> 00:03:22,870\n我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的試選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得\n\n11\n00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:46,558\n而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年\n\n12\n00:03:48,940 --> 00:03:48,960\n我會\n\n13\n00:04:05,633 --> 00:04:27,774\n您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這3年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了\n\n14\n00:04:28,354 --> 00:04:29,816\n他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子\n\n15\n00:04:44,034 --> 00:04:58,707\n部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟到農種植的面積他不是只有看價錢\n\n16\n00:04:59,768 --> 00:04:59,848\n涂權吉\n\n17\n00:05:18,058 --> 00:05:19,939\n您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說\n\n18\n00:05:38,793 --> 00:05:59,707\n當你在108年的話我這7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒繳那麼多是表示說你產地價是提高的因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的\n\n19\n00:06:00,507 --> 00:06:00,868\n所以我說阿\n\n20\n00:06:15,766 --> 00:06:28,905\n基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說我們應該\n\n21\n00:06:31,208 --> 00:06:36,191\n農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題\n\n22\n00:06:48,197 --> 00:07:08,173\n是我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話\n\n23\n00:07:08,693 --> 00:07:09,754\n公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲\n\n24\n00:07:27,495 --> 00:07:49,543\n那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n83\t903\t立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員諮詢。\n24008\t35519\t好部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的嘛\n36854\t59816\t那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎\n60416\t84299\t我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果\n85060\t89510\t用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得\n92082\t116824\t所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農\n119186\t140789\t我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格\n141610\t164005\t所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農\n165486\t179739\t向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效\n181215\t202870\t我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的試選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得\n203720\t226558\t而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年\n228940\t228960\t我會\n245633\t267774\t您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這3年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了\n268354\t269816\t他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子\n284034\t298707\t部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟到農種植的面積他不是只有看價錢\n299768\t299848\t涂權吉\n318058\t319939\t您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說\n338793\t359707\t當你在108年的話我這7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒繳那麼多是表示說你產地價是提高的因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的\n360507\t360868\t所以我說阿\n375766\t388905\t基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說我們應該\n391208\t396191\t農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題\n408197\t428173\t是 我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話\n428693\t429754\t公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲\n447495\t469543\t那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義\n","txt":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員諮詢。\n好部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的嘛\n那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎\n我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果\n用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得\n所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農\n我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格\n所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農\n向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效\n我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的試選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得\n而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年\n我會\n您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這3年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了\n他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子\n部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟到農種植的面積他不是只有看價錢\n涂權吉\n您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說\n當你在108年的話我這7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒繳那麼多是表示說你產地價是提高的因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的\n所以我說阿\n基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說我們應該\n農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題\n是 我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話\n公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲\n那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.083 --> 00:00.903\n立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員諮詢。\n\n00:24.008 --> 00:35.519\n好部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的嘛\n\n00:36.854 --> 00:59.816\n那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎\n\n01:00.416 --> 01:24.299\n我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果\n\n01:25.060 --> 01:29.510\n用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得\n\n01:32.082 --> 01:56.824\n所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農\n\n01:59.186 --> 02:20.789\n我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格\n\n02:21.610 --> 02:44.005\n所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農\n\n02:45.486 --> 02:59.739\n向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效\n\n03:01.215 --> 03:22.870\n我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的試選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得\n\n03:23.720 --> 03:46.558\n而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年\n\n03:48.940 --> 03:48.960\n我會\n\n04:05.633 --> 04:27.774\n您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這3年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了\n\n04:28.354 --> 04:29.816\n他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子\n\n04:44.034 --> 04:58.707\n部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟到農種植的面積他不是只有看價錢\n\n04:59.768 --> 04:59.848\n涂權吉\n\n05:18.058 --> 05:19.939\n您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說\n\n05:38.793 --> 05:59.707\n當你在108年的話我這7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒繳那麼多是表示說你產地價是提高的因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的\n\n06:00.507 --> 06:00.868\n所以我說阿\n\n06:15.766 --> 06:28.905\n基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說我們應該\n\n06:31.208 --> 06:36.191\n農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題\n\n06:48.197 --> 07:08.173\n是我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話\n\n07:08.693 --> 07:09.754\n公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲\n\n07:27.495 --> 07:49.543\n那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.083,"end":0.903,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員諮詢。"},{"start":24.008,"end":35.519,"text":"好部長你好根據我們農業部主力農家所得的調查那稻農的家戶收入看起來說收入過去10年是有成長的嘛"},{"start":36.854,"end":59.816,"text":"那可是我們看這個報告發現其實他增加的都是農業外的收入可是他本身農業的收入其實並沒有成長也就是說他其實本身他在農業方面是沒有賺到錢他是靠其他的工作才追得上這個物價的成長這部分不知道部長有瞭解嗎"},{"start":60.416,"end":84.299,"text":"我跟委員報告就是根據我們的農家所得調查裡面他有分為從事農業的所得跟從事非農業的所得所以這裡看起來是應該是兩者一起加起來的部分那相對的就是以我們現在來看整個稻農本身22.5萬戶裡面那我們的資料顯示就是說你如果"},{"start":85.06,"end":89.51,"text":"用民間集團企作的所得會高於你純粹繳公糧的所得"},{"start":92.082,"end":116.824,"text":"所以我們看根據這資料顯示其實他是靠農業外收入才讓他的所得有所成長那農業部說增加公糧收購的價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家可是我們也查過針對這些其他像果菜雜糧這些農家他在10年的農業所得都比這些稻農高是不是也應該幫忙這些稻農"},{"start":119.186,"end":140.789,"text":"我跟委員報告其他的這些品項其實他是認真的照顧讓他用優質的產品去取得市場的價格比較高來支撐他的所得那倒座的部分我們的集團產區的氣座栽培也是這個道理他用品牌去提高他的所得但是公糧就是唯一就是靠政府的提高價格"},{"start":141.61,"end":164.005,"text":"所以我想我們也要引導就是要引導這些公糧的去做集團栽培用他的優質的稻米去支撐他的所得這個我想這才是一個比較正常的一個市長機制好所以我也看農業部的報告然後剛剛部長的說其實針對我們稻農的政策就是你們一級二轉3加3多元的輔導稻農"},{"start":165.486,"end":179.739,"text":"向輔導他去做契作轉作甚至宣傳10米教育等等但是這些其實我們都是支持我們也支持但是看起來這10年做下來好像立竿見影看不到特別的成效"},{"start":181.215,"end":202.87,"text":"我想整個稻作的一個產業結構的調整其實我們有其他的配套去做那最重要的是我把面積如果滋生在某一個面積的話大概是24萬公頃左右的話那相對的產力價格提高的時候對稻農的收益就有幫助所以我們的試選商我們的大區輪作包括我們的對地給付其實都是滋生稻農的這些所得"},{"start":203.72,"end":226.558,"text":"而且你看喔最近喔其實你仔細去看現在喔肥料生產工具全部價格都成長好那農業部說怕這個公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本的再度上升可是你要知道這些這些公糧價格這十幾年沒調漲這些都已經漲成這樣所以我們說這十幾年"},{"start":228.94,"end":228.96,"text":"我會"},{"start":245.633,"end":267.774,"text":"您剛才講的肥料跟農藥的部分其實在這3年來其實它並沒有增加它增加這其他的部分因為我們對我們針對稻農我們也輔導它就是合理化私肥跟合理化用藥所以它的農藥本身並沒有太大的波動跟肥料的部分那整體來看它的成本是增加了"},{"start":268.354,"end":269.816,"text":"他大概減少大概2%並沒有到達10%那樣子"},{"start":284.034,"end":298.707,"text":"部長我說我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題也有銷售計畫的面向像我們農家繳的這些公糧的數量跟到農種植的面積他不是只有看價錢"},{"start":299.768,"end":299.848,"text":"涂權吉"},{"start":318.058,"end":319.939,"text":"您這個表就是一個非常好的例子就是說"},{"start":338.793,"end":359.707,"text":"當你在108年的話我這7萬5那時候的面積是27萬然後到了112年是33點表示說他沒繳那麼多是表示說你產地價是提高的因為農民繳公糧是自願的當你的產地價高的時候他就去繳產地了繳民糧了他就不繳公糧所以公糧本身的"},{"start":360.507,"end":360.868,"text":"所以我說阿"},{"start":375.766,"end":388.905,"text":"基本上像我們農業部去做一些輔導他們轉型企作然後甚至提高他的品質去有更好的價錢去市場賣他也不會說等你公糧價格來收購所以我們說我們應該"},{"start":391.208,"end":396.191,"text":"農業部擔心這個糧正業務造成財政負擔的問題我們說其實應該針對去除純糧的數量還有收入金額的檢討不應該單方面只檢討這個公糧收購價格支出的問題"},{"start":408.197,"end":428.173,"text":"是 我想委員講得非常對就是說當我們在考慮我們公糧政策不會說就取消了 制度啦但是公糧本身的調整需要有一個機制去做一個檢討這個我想我們一定會去做但是以現在來講我們評估覺得在這個時間點我們去推一級二轉三加三的話"},{"start":428.693,"end":429.754,"text":"公糧收購價格提高其實是公平正義十幾年沒調漲"},{"start":447.495,"end":469.543,"text":"那所有的你也知道其他的生產工具這些都長成這個樣子你公糧沒長他都長成這樣子那你其他的輔導轉型提升他的品質輔導他器做等等你也可以盡量去做啊等他做到好他可以賣更好的價錢他也不會等你公糧來回收啦所以我是覺得這個還是可以多頭變形十幾年沒調漲公糧價格應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時32分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，你好。根據農業部主力農家所得調查，稻農的家戶收入，看起來過去10年是有成長的，可是我們看這個報告可以發現，其實增加的都是農業外的收入，農業的收入並沒有成長。也就是說，其實他在農業方面沒有賺到錢，是靠其他工作才追得上物價成長，這部分部長瞭解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：根據我們的農家所得調查，它分為從事農業的所得和從事非農業的所得，這裡看起來應該是兩者加起來。相對的，我們現在看這22.5萬戶稻農，我們的資料顯示，民間集團契作的所得會高於純粹繳公糧的所得。"],["涂委員權吉：根據這個資料顯示，其實他是靠農業外的收入，才讓所得有所成長。農業部說增加公糧收購價格沒有辦法幫助到其他農家，可是我們也查過，像種植果菜、雜糧等其他農家，他的10年農業所得都比這些稻農高，是不是應該幫忙這些稻農？"],["陳部長駿季：其他的品項，其實他們都是認真照顧，以優質產品獲得比較高的市場價格來支撐所得。至於稻作的部分，我們的集團產區契作栽培也是這個道理，是用品牌去提高他的所得，但公糧就是靠政府提高價格。所以我們也要引導這些種植公糧的稻農去做集團栽培，用他們的優質稻米去支撐所得，我想這才是一個比較正常的市場機制。"],["涂委員權吉：我有看農業部的報告，剛剛部長也說了，針對稻農的政策就是「1集、2轉、3加3」，多元輔導稻農，像輔導他去做契作、轉作，甚至宣傳食米教育等等，這些我們都是支持的，但是這10年做下來，看起來好像並沒有立竿見影，看不到特別的成效。"],["陳部長駿季：整個稻作的產業結構調整，其實我們也有其他配套，最重要的是，如果支撐在某一個面積的話，大概是24萬公頃左右，那麼相對的，當產地價格提高的時候，對稻農的收益就有幫助。所以稻作四選三、大區輪作，包括對地綠色環境給付，其實都是在支撐稻農的所得。"],["涂委員權吉：其實你們仔細去看，現在肥料、生產工具的價格都成長，農業部說，怕公糧收購價格成長會帶動種植成本再度上升，可是你要知道，公糧價格十幾年沒有調漲，但是這些都已經漲成這樣。這十幾年公糧價格沒有調漲，可是肥料、農藥、生產工具都漲成這樣，所以公糧收購價格調整，其實並不是增加他的收益，應該是追趕這十幾年的落差。"],["陳部長駿季：您剛才說的肥料和農藥部分，其實這3年來並沒有增加，是增加其他部分。"],["涂委員權吉：生產工具等等都增加。"],["陳部長駿季：針對稻農，我們也有輔導他們，要有合理化施肥和合理化用藥，所以農藥和肥料的部分並沒有太大波動，整體來看它的成本是增加了，這10年間大概增加9%左右，但是相對的，產量也有一些精進和提高，所以每1公斤稻穀的產量，大概是減少2%，並沒有到10%。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我們的糧政業務不是只有公糧收購價格這個問題，還有銷售計畫的面向，像農家繳的這些公糧數量和稻農種植的面積，它不是只看價錢而已。你看，根據調查數據顯示，112年預計收購38萬2,000噸，結果沒有收購到足額，還去市場多採購四萬多噸。也就是說，事實上氣候、供水、輔導休耕等等，都可能對它有所影響，所以農業部不應該只針對這個問題，好像價格提高就會和農民繳交的數量劃上等號，擔心價格提高之後，你們就會收太多公糧，但是銷售不出去。"],["陳部長駿季：您這個表就是一個非常好的例子，108年是57萬5,000噸，那時候的面積是27萬公頃，到了112年是三十三萬多噸，表示農民並沒有繳那麼多公糧，也代表產地價提高了。因為農民繳公糧是自願的，當產地價高的時候，他就會去繳民糧，而不是繳公糧，所以公糧的收購數就會變少，這是一個好現象，因為產地價比公糧的收購價還高。所以針對這個部分，我們要控制面積，儘量讓產地價提高，才會讓我們的稻農所得整體提高。"],["涂委員權吉：所以農業部有去做一些輔導，包括轉型、契作，甚至是提高品質，讓他們以更好的價錢賣到市場，這樣他們也不會等公糧收購。農業部擔心這項糧政業務會造成財政負擔的問題，其實你們應該針對去除存糧的數量和收入進行檢討，而不是只單方面檢討公糧收購價格支出的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：委員說的非常對，我們的公糧收購制度不會就這樣取消，但是公糧本身的調整，需要有一個機制去做檢討，這部分我們一定會去做。但以現在來說，我們評估在這個時間點推「1集、2轉、3加3」，這樣對稻農的收益會更好，後續我們也會檢討公糧收購的部分，不只是看價格，還要看其他因素，這些我們後續會處理。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我們是建議並存啦！公糧收購價格提高，其實關係到公平正義，因為十幾年沒有調漲。你也知道其他的生產工具都漲成這樣，但是公糧沒漲，至於其他的輔導轉型、提升品質、輔導契作等等，你也可以儘量去做啊！等他做到好，他可以賣更好的價錢，也就不會等你回收公糧，所以我覺得這個還是可以多頭進行。十幾年沒有調漲公糧價格，應該還給我們這些稻農公平正義！"],["主席：請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-6","speakers":["呂玉玲","張嘉郡","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","洪申翰","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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