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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,820 --> 00:00:07,704\n好謝謝主席麻煩請勞動部長請何部長\n\n2\n00:00:13,716 --> 00:00:39,604\n委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下\n\n3\n00:00:41,185 --> 00:01:05,425\n勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義\n\n4\n00:01:06,246 --> 00:01:12,320\n好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的\n\n5\n00:01:19,288 --> 00:01:46,437\n這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果\n\n6\n00:01:47,017 --> 00:02:06,297\n哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁\n\n7\n00:02:09,163 --> 00:02:35,520\n這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了\n\n8\n00:02:36,320 --> 00:03:03,646\n那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢\n\n9\n00:03:05,607 --> 00:03:17,921\n本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯\n\n10\n00:03:19,483 --> 00:03:47,008\n好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦\n\n11\n00:03:48,857 --> 00:04:10,743\n再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎\n\n12\n00:04:12,110 --> 00:04:14,593\n這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說\n\n13\n00:04:31,232 --> 00:04:49,313\n有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。\n\n14\n00:04:54,297 --> 00:04:56,957\n公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元\n\n15\n00:05:10,221 --> 00:05:25,878\n本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼\n\n16\n00:05:27,119 --> 00:05:43,480\n那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天\n\n17\n00:05:44,281 --> 00:06:04,973\n好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長\n\n18\n00:06:08,896 --> 00:06:18,027\n要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為\n\n19\n00:06:19,386 --> 00:06:41,680\n那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是\n\n20\n00:06:49,464 --> 00:07:05,510\n很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為\n\n21\n00:07:13,769 --> 00:07:36,926\n依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間\n\n22\n00:07:38,687 --> 00:07:45,881\n不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也\n\n23\n00:07:48,413 --> 00:08:15,649\n其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為\n\n24\n00:08:16,610 --> 00:08:39,012\n或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新\n\n25\n00:08:39,512 --> 00:08:48,017\n理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6820\t7704\t好 謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請何部長\n13716\t39604\t委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下\n41185\t65425\t勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義\n66246\t72320\t好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的\n79288\t106437\t這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果\n107017\t126297\t哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁\n129163\t155520\t這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了\n156320\t183646\t那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢\n185607\t197921\t本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯\n199483\t227008\t好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦\n228857\t250743\t再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎\n252110\t254593\t這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說\n271232\t289313\t有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。\n294297\t296957\t公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元\n310221\t325878\t本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼\n327119\t343480\t那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天\n344281\t364973\t好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長\n368896\t378027\t要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為\n379386\t401680\t那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是\n409464\t425510\t很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為\n433769\t456926\t依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間\n458687\t465881\t不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也\n468413\t495649\t其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為\n496610\t519012\t或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新\n519512\t528017\t理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請何部長\n委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下\n勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義\n好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的\n這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果\n哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁\n這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了\n那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢\n本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯\n好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦\n再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎\n這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說\n有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。\n公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元\n本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼\n那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天\n好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長\n要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為\n那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是\n很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為\n依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間\n不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也\n其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為\n或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新\n理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.820 --> 00:07.704\n好謝謝主席麻煩請勞動部長請何部長\n\n00:13.716 --> 00:39.604\n委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下\n\n00:41.185 --> 01:05.425\n勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義\n\n01:06.246 --> 01:12.320\n好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的\n\n01:19.288 --> 01:46.437\n這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果\n\n01:47.017 --> 02:06.297\n哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁\n\n02:09.163 --> 02:35.520\n這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了\n\n02:36.320 --> 03:03.646\n那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢\n\n03:05.607 --> 03:17.921\n本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯\n\n03:19.483 --> 03:47.008\n好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦\n\n03:48.857 --> 04:10.743\n再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎\n\n04:12.110 --> 04:14.593\n這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說\n\n04:31.232 --> 04:49.313\n有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。\n\n04:54.297 --> 04:56.957\n公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元\n\n05:10.221 --> 05:25.878\n本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼\n\n05:27.119 --> 05:43.480\n那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天\n\n05:44.281 --> 06:04.973\n好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長\n\n06:08.896 --> 06:18.027\n要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為\n\n06:19.386 --> 06:41.680\n那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是\n\n06:49.464 --> 07:05.510\n很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為\n\n07:13.769 --> 07:36.926\n依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間\n\n07:38.687 --> 07:45.881\n不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也\n\n07:48.413 --> 08:15.649\n其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為\n\n08:16.610 --> 08:39.012\n或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新\n\n08:39.512 --> 08:48.017\n理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.82,"end":7.704,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請何部長"},{"start":13.716,"end":39.604,"text":"委員好部長好我想就今天專報的題目來跟你討論一下這個如何提升國內薪資水準的部分那其次我要謝謝昭緯就是今天題目的這個專報的題目讓本席發現了這個從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法裡面這40年一直在存在的一個謬誤我們來看一下"},{"start":41.185,"end":65.425,"text":"勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義那勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給予那這個經常性給予當然就是包含了金錢跟食物的部分那我想要請教部長就是說這樣子工資的定義"},{"start":66.246,"end":72.32,"text":"好,就剛剛講的加上這個新金、獎金、金金還有經常性給予部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題還是你覺得這樣是很OK的"},{"start":79.288,"end":106.437,"text":"這個大概是現在實務上因為不同的狀況沒關係,如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題我來舉一個例子好了以本辦公室而言就是我個人啦那對於這個我我們自己的辦公室的這些助理們那我是這個經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁那如果"},{"start":107.017,"end":126.297,"text":"哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們的時候呢那按照這個定義裡面我可能就違法囉我這樣講沒有錯吧這個例子按照這個邏輯好大家可以想想看那再來齁"},{"start":129.163,"end":155.52,"text":"這個勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了這個條文其實都沒有動過那這樣子算是有定義嗎更扯的是本席查的這個條文的定義居然是超自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的那部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被治安法給取代了"},{"start":156.32,"end":183.646,"text":"那難道這個勞基法就這個部分就不用修正嗎所以我接下來我要請教就是說這個薪資等不等同工資的問題這張簡報它是勞動部的勞動統計名詞裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資加班費以及其他非經常性薪資那經常性的薪資呢"},{"start":185.607,"end":197.921,"text":"本薪津貼生產績效業績之工作獎金很清楚的勞動部你們是把本薪津貼跟績效聯動的工作獎金視為不同的項目這是很清楚沒有錯"},{"start":199.483,"end":227.008,"text":"好,那行政院的這個公務人員條薪的這個加薪加的是本縫、專業加給、主管加給那依照通過條薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了你們公務人員的工作獎金、考積獎金是固定以月薪來給予的那固定月薪有增加了,自然你們的獎金也就增加了,這樣也沒錯啦"},{"start":228.857,"end":250.743,"text":"再不然如果說把這個所謂的績效跟這個本性去做連結的話呢績效指標又都是就是僱主可以決定然後甚至去認定的話那這樣子僱主他是可以隨時以績效的理由去給勞工減薪難道你們勞動部也認可嗎"},{"start":252.11,"end":254.593,"text":"這是去年調評司副司長針對本席剛提到的案例所作的解釋,我要念一下就是說,這個案例就是說"},{"start":271.232,"end":289.313,"text":"有一個勞工他在一家公司工作將近6年,薪水一路從23,000元調到32,000元。最近因為這個老闆說因為這個營收不如預期,所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資。"},{"start":294.297,"end":296.957,"text":"公司減薪沒有取得員工同意已經處罰最高開罰100萬元"},{"start":310.221,"end":325.878,"text":"本席上次在這個院會的質詢主張的是這個經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升反映的是這個本心跟津貼"},{"start":327.119,"end":343.48,"text":"那這個績效獎金其實它也是薪資的一部分沒有錯但是應該要分開來處理獎金是可以變動的那我們不能用這個績效這個理由來去影響到本心跟今天"},{"start":344.281,"end":364.973,"text":"好因為最近這個當然我總諮詢也特別提到我們最近都大家其實很多人關心因為我們討論這個法人調薪的事情那當然某些人主張就是說要以績效作為調薪的理由這是絕對錯誤的觀念因為我想是這樣就是說身為這個勞動部部長"},{"start":368.896,"end":378.027,"text":"要拜託千萬不要變成慣部長也不要有慣署長因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了那些都是慣老闆的行為"},{"start":379.386,"end":401.68,"text":"那更何況就是說如果這個勞動部認為說可以根據經營績效去做聯動本薪的津貼對不起如果勞動部認為可以根據這個經營績效去聯動本薪跟津貼的話那我們這個僱主為什麼就是不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞動減薪這個是這個邏輯就是"},{"start":409.464,"end":425.51,"text":"很奇怪就是說你們勞動部憑什麼有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰你會回去好好想一想所以我本期是建議就是說勞動部去了解一下台積電的這個經營經營績效的這個著住的這個企業薪資結構因為"},{"start":433.769,"end":456.926,"text":"依據本期的了解他們的本心跟津貼不是佔他們整體薪資很高的比例那這個績效獎金才是真正的動力真正高薪的原因那良情則木而居那好的企業當然就是說為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間"},{"start":458.687,"end":465.881,"text":"不反映這個合理的薪資制度你當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊所以我也"},{"start":468.413,"end":495.649,"text":"其實可能很多人沒有注意到但我有留意到部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拼而被起訴但是我想這個是光榮的紀錄那證明說部長也算是有一位有理想的政務官所以勞基法的這個21條的規定公知由勞資雙方議定之那好的企業呢他就不怕說這個人才的薪資高所以本期認為"},{"start":496.61,"end":519.012,"text":"或許我們今天要來提升勞工的薪資它不是單一勞動部的這個政策工具就可以解決但是你要保護現有的這個勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響我覺得勞動部你們還是有能力可以做到的所以我希望部長我今天特別把這個整個概念重新"},{"start":519.512,"end":528.017,"text":"理清：大家回去做點功課：用心去思考：讓我們的法制更健全：做好保護全體勞工的權益,可不可以?"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我想就今天專報的題目來跟您討論如何提升國內薪資水準的部分，其次我要謝謝召委，今天專報的題目讓本席發現了從民國73年一直到今年在勞基法40年來一直存在的一個謬誤，我們來看一下。勞基法的第二條對於工資的定義，勞工因為工作而獲得的報酬，包括工資、薪金、獎金、津貼及其他任何名義之經常性給與。這個經常性給與當然就是包含了金錢跟實物的部分。我想要請教部長，對於工資的定義，就剛剛講的加上薪金、獎金及經常性給與，部長有沒有發現這樣的定義有沒有什麼問題？還是你覺得這樣很OK？"],["何部長佩珊：大概現在實務上因為各有不同的狀況……"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係，如果你一下子沒有發現什麼問題，我來舉一個例子好了。以本辦公室而言，就是我個人對於辦公室這些助理們，我是經常性的提供精品咖啡豆給我們辦公室每位同仁，如果哪一天我無預警的突然自行停止供應精品咖啡豆給我的助理們，按照這個定義，我可能就違法囉，我這樣講沒有錯吧？這個例子按照這個邏輯，大家可以想想看。","再者，勞基法73年制定發布到今天40年了，這個條文其實都沒有動過，這樣子算是有定義嗎？更扯的是，本席查了這個條文的定義，居然是抄自於更早的就是民國63年勞工安全衛生法而來的，部長你知不知道50年了勞工安全衛生法都已經被職安法給取代了，難道勞基法這個部分就不用修正嗎？所以我接下來想請教的是薪資等不等同工資的問題。","這張簡報是勞動部的勞動統計名詞，裡面解釋了總薪資包括了經常性薪資、加班費，以及其他非經常性薪資。經常性的薪資又包括了本薪、津貼、生產績效業績之工作獎金。很清楚的勞動部是把本薪、津貼、跟績效連動的工作獎金視為不同的項目，這是很清楚沒有錯嘛！我們看行政院的公務人員調薪的加薪，加的是本俸、專業加給、主管加給，依照通過調薪的比例全部都反映在這些項目裡面了。你們公務人員的工作獎金、考績獎金是固定以月薪來給與，固定月薪有增加了，自然你們的獎金也就增加了，這樣也沒錯啦。再不然，如果我說把所謂的績效跟本薪去做連結的話，績效指標又都是雇主可以決定，甚至去認定的話，這樣雇主是可以隨時以績效的理由去對勞工減薪，難道你們勞動部也認可嗎？按照你們的邏輯。"],["何部長佩珊：當然不可以啊！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！當然是不可以啊，雖然你們不認同這樣子，但你們的邏輯卻是這個樣子的嘛！這個報導是去年條平司副司長針對本席剛剛提到的案例所做的解釋，我要唸一下。這個案例是有一個勞工在一家公司裡工作了將近6年，薪水一路從2萬3,000元調到3萬2,000元，最近因為老闆說營收不如預期，所以下個月開始就調降薪水變回基本工資，後來你們勞動部就講了，公司減薪沒有取得員工同意，已經觸法，最高開罰100萬元，這就是你們針對這個案例所做的處分。","本席上次在院會質詢，主張的是經常性薪資應該要反映物價水準跟經濟成長來做提升，反映的是這個本薪跟津貼，績效獎金其實也是薪資的一部分，沒有錯，但是應該要分開來處理，獎金是可以變動的，我們不能用績效理由來影響到本薪跟津貼。最近我總質詢也特別提到……其實很多人很關心，因為我們討論法人調薪的事情，當然某些人主張要以績效作為調薪的理由，這是絕對錯誤的觀念。我想是這樣，身為勞動部部長，拜託千萬不要變成慣部長，也不要有慣署長，因為我們上面如果這個概念錯了，那些都是慣老闆的行為。更何況就是說，如果勞動部認為可以根據經營績效去連動本薪跟津貼的話，那麼雇主為什麼不可以用績效的理由去片面給勞工減薪？所以這個邏輯就是很奇怪，就是你們勞動部憑什麼、有什麼立場要去給人家裁罰？你們回去好好想一想。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：所以本席是建議勞動部去瞭解一下台積電等經營績效卓著企業的薪資結構，因為依據本席的瞭解，他們的本薪跟津貼都不是占他們整體薪資很高的比例，績效獎金才是真正的動力，真正高薪的原因。良禽擇木而棲，好的企業為什麼可以吸引這些優秀的人才，就是因為有合理的待遇跟可以揮灑的空間嘛，不反映合理薪資的制度當然就很難吸引好的人才加入團隊啊！","其實可能很多人沒有注意到，但我有留意到，部長在很年輕的時候也曾經為勞工打拚而被起訴，我想這個是光榮的紀錄，證明部長也算是一位有理想的政務官。勞基法第二十一條規定「工資由勞雇雙方議定之」，好的企業就不怕人才的薪資高。所以本席認為，或許今天要提升勞工的薪資不是單一勞動部的政策工具就可以解決，但是你要保護現有勞工的薪資不要被以績效為名而受到影響，我覺得勞動部還是有能力可以做到的。所以部長，我今天特別把這整個概念重新釐清，大家回去做點功課，用心去思考，讓我們的法制更健全，做好保護全體勞工的權益，可不可以？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。","本日會議詢答全部結束。","委員蘇清泉、邱鎮軍、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","外展服務","勞動部重啟外籍看護工外展計畫，並更名為多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫，希望能建立外籍看護多元聘僱模式，來解決家庭照顧相關問題並提升照護品質。","「外籍看護工多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫」意見座談會已召開兩場，請部長說明價格規範的緣由。","該計劃作為長照的補充人力，解決服務時數受限，但需夜間型或全日型的受照護者，納入4小時、8小時、半日型（12小時）、全日型（24小時）等多元選擇，使用者完全自費價格如何訂定？","服務價目表必須依時數透明公開，勞動部如何主動承擔管理與稽查責任，避免價格混亂？確保價格低於非法看護工？","據了解，外展試辦計畫輔導監督NPO是沒有聘僱移工經驗的協會？請問部長，沒有經驗，如何聘僱、管理鐘點看護工？","外展接案單位為NPO（桃園群眾？萬人社福？受恩？）實際情況卻是委由仲介團體（工會）承攬相關業務？（美家？）勞動部是否規避圖利特定團體之嫌？","外籍看護多元陪伴照顧服務試辦計畫","明年底預計將有10個單位承接，每個單位預計將有10位外展移工服務1,000人次，這個計算單位如何計算出？（跨國勞動力發展組，2024）試辦計畫如何評估成果？預計達標到何種程度正式上路？","公務機構技工、工友算是勞工！？","公務機構之技工、工友及駕駛已自87年7月1日起適用勞動基準法，近年兼具勞工身份的工友團體陳情，基層職工久任一職、無職等可升、無年功餉級數可升，嚴重打擊工作士氣，作為勞動部長關心勞工，是否願意為這些基層勞工，向政府部門爭取？請人事總處提出檢討報告至辦公室說明。","印度勞工引進的事宜。","請問勞動部，有關受照護者為「失能」、「失智」、「身障」病人或老人，其本人或家屬，因台籍看護薪資高於一般家庭平均所得所能負擔，因此合法聘僱外籍家庭看護工，簽訂工作契約卻沒有獲得保障，看護工常因「怠工」、「轉換雇主」、「違背工作契約」、「逃逸」等現象，造成以上家庭嚴重失能。目前台灣逃逸的外勞，在黑工市場工作人數有多少？","其中有多少比例，原為家庭看護工？","台灣給外籍勞工的薪資，位居亞洲最高前列，加上給外籍勞工的健保等福利，在亞洲引進外籍勞工市場上是有競爭力的。請問勞動部，為何逃逸外勞仍高達8.6萬人？","很多「失能」、「失智」、「身障」病人或老人的家庭反映，台灣現在制度似乎對於逃逸外勞無力解決！？請問部長，這些需要人照顧的雇主家庭，其權益保障在哪裡？","逃逸外勞不僅是「國家安全」問題，無法追蹤逃逸外勞去處，也造成逃逸歪風無法遏止，造成合法雇主、合法仲介、合法移工，受到非法市場的嚴重影響。請問部長，如何解決逃逸外勞的問題？","台灣社會對印度男性性侵案件多之刻板印象表示擔憂，超高齡社會對於長照需求的增加，同時也要解決勞動力不足的問題，例如向本席陳情的：「社團法人台灣失能者家庭暨看護雇主國際協會」提議，在兼顧勞動力需求，而女性勞動力在長照中扮演重要角色，建議引進印度「女性」勞動力是一個解決方案。這不僅可以消除各界對印度性侵形象的擔憂，同時提供長照家庭多一個新的勞動力來源國選擇。請問勞動部，有沒有自印度引進家庭類移工的規劃？","勞動部，必須正視台灣缺工問題，是否考慮全面開放產業及家庭類移工？才能透過消除因缺工及聘僱移工不易所造成的黑工市場，恢復正常外籍勞動力的供需。同時，我認為，必須積極處理外籍勞工逃逸與失聯問題，並進而提供罰則增加逃逸阻力。請問部長，這個方向你支持嗎？","此次引進印度移工，是否有規劃引進長照移工？印度英語好，勞動部是否有與衛福部研究，引進看護人力輔助護理師？","本席希望勞動部對此應該審慎與衛福部研究，部長對此有與衛福部聯繫過嗎？","這些印度移工來台前工作訓練的費用，是否由台灣僱主負擔？還是政府承擔？本席再次提醒勞動部，對移工的需求，除了產業界，長照或看護家庭本身的支出負擔已經很沉重了，勞動部對此有何因應措施？本席希望部長於一個月內，來向本席辦公室提出切實可行的方案，以解決這些失能需要人照護的僱主家庭的困境。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","一、邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系統」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","二、邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【專題報告綜合詢答】　　【10月16日及17日二天一次會】","議題一：非典勞工工作權益保護","Q1-1：針對UberEat跟Foodpand申請合併案，相關主管機關意見非常重要，部長昨天說勞動部反對，並且已經去函表達意見了是嗎？","Q1-2：勞動部反對的原因，主要是認為這件合併案會對外送員的權益帶來什麼衝擊嗎？","Q1-3：請問部長，到底外送員與平台是不是雇傭關係還是承攬關係？","Q1-4：平台業者並不接受勞動部雇傭關係的見解，他們針對勞動部認定條件，立即修改合約，強化承攬關係，根本沒有誠意保障外送員勞工權益，勞動部卻無可奈何。部長表示反對制定專法，請問有什麼其他辦法可以加強管理外送產業？","Q1-5：部長昨天有證實勞動部已經與交通部著手研訂「外送運費」，包括調漲每單基本費、夜間加收20元、送上樓加收5元，及延滯取餐5分鐘加收5元，理由是為了保障外送員權益，請問未來這些加收的錢是不是百分百給外送員？","建議：本席認為既然是\n            以保障外送員權益名義加收的費用，應該都要給外送員，或者至少要佔大部分比例。","Q1-7：部長，上次山陀兒颱風全台放兩天以上的颱風假，但對企業沒有強制力，有專櫃員工抱怨被迫上班或扣薪，但平台及外送員反而不能比照企業自主，部分地區根本無風無雨，卻無論開車或騎車都不能接單，影響外送員生計，凸顯制度很亂！請問部長你認為勞基法應修法強制規定企業必須給予颱風假「有薪休假」嗎？相關規定應不應該統一？","結論：這些都是非常實際的問題，請部長重視勞工在颱風天被強迫上班的問題，也不要讓外送員成為勞基法「勞工權益保障」的漏網之魚。","議題二、全國缺工會議及農業移工問題","Q2-1：部長，上個月初最低工資審議會，勞資雙方呼籲政府要召開全國缺工會議，許次長也有承諾。請問部長目前研議的怎麼樣？到底會不會召開？大概什麼時候？","Q2-2：那次會議許次長也表示，勞動部會逐步改進營造業、農業部門缺工問題，本席非常關心農業移工引進問題，在部長一上任就向部長表達希望檢討農業移工外展模式，請問有沒有最新進度？什麼時候才能調整農業移工外展模式？現在直聘也很困難，有沒有研議可以由政府直接協助聘請及管理的模式？","結論：政府應該要正視面對農業移工需求！現在逃逸移工越來越多，移民署最新資料，今年8月逃逸移工已經達到8.8萬人，比疫情前成長八成，幾乎快一倍了，政府根本束手無策。除了是來源國問題，勞動部沒有確實掌握各產業實質缺工及滿足需求，也是主要問題，請部長要加油！","議題三、中高齡就業及安全保障","Q3-1：我國即將邁入超高齡社會，中高齡再就業及延後退休成為社會共識，但針對中高齡勞工職災風險如何加強分級管理，以提升安全保障，這部分勞動部有沒有進行研究？","Q3-2：昨天我們也談到勞保改革，其中一項就是延後退休，包括鼓勵企業留用或進用65歲以上的員工，但我認為政府應該要做企業表率，先從政府投保勞保的技工、駕駛員、工友及清潔隊員先著手？讓技工工友延後退休？這點部長可不可以承諾與銓敘部展開溝通？"],["委員楊瓊瓔書面質詢：","移工仲介應妥善管理　直聘、公立機構移工服務如何升級？","我國缺工嚴重、移工人數也大幅成長，截至112年底移工在台人數超過75萬人，近十年增加20萬人，移工仲介產業規模也日益龐大，但移工仲介上人權、不公平待遇等問題層出不窮現管道分為仲介公司、直接聘僱聯合服務中心、雇主自行引進，但仲介為主。直聘中心成立迄今16年，每年引進比例未超過一成。","是否能健全公立就業服務機構對移工服務的功能？升級直聘中心？","加強檢查私人仲介以及加強就服機構管理措施，勞動部有何作為？","是否能增加移工教育訓練機會，協助適應融入？","移工失聯人數攀升　勞動部如何因應？","據統計，截至112年底，失聯未查獲移工人數8萬6,352人，佔整體移工人數11.16%，失聯人數比起十年前增加一倍，不斷創下新高。包括無法適應、不滿待遇、雇主不當對待、勞動條件差等等，勞動部除修法加重裁罰基準，並應要由源頭防止移工失聯，現在效果如何？未來如何精進？是否加強查核評鑑仲介公司？或如何改善移工處境？","正職待遇輸打工加劇缺工　如何因應？","行政院核定明年最低工資2萬8,590元，時薪調升至190元，但長年來最低工資月薪累計調幅低於時薪，近九年兩者調幅差距高達逾15個百分點，勞團及資方皆擔憂，這會讓很多年輕人捨棄正職，而選擇打工兼差，因而加劇正職缺工。","依明年最低工資計算，若從事時薪工作，以一天八小時、工作22天計算，時薪可領3萬3,440元，而月薪僅2萬8,590元，中間差距達4,850元。近九年來，最低工資月薪調幅達42.9%，時薪調幅更達58.3%，兩者差距達15.4個百分點。","請問部長，政府態度為何？有無因應措施？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時43分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":430,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-4","speakers":["黃秀芳","王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","盧縣一","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","郭國文","羅智強","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","劉建國","楊曜","鍾佳濱","陳瑩","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":363,"meetingDate":["2024-10-17"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長就「如何提升移工問題諮詢與申訴處理效能，並重視與建立移工的社會支持系\n統」進行專題報告，並備質詢；邀請勞動部部長、行政院人事行政總處就「如何有效提升國內薪\n資水準，落實保障政府機關單位內勞工之權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00006"}}}