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\"text\": \"尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。 好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 255.524, \"end\": 255.684, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 255.684, \"end\": 255.864, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 255.864, \"end\": 256.004, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 256.004, \"end\": 256.145, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 256.145, \"end\": 256.945, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 256.945, \"end\": 257.265, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 257.265, \"end\": 257.546, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 257.546, \"end\": 257.726, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 257.726, \"end\": 258.246, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 258.246, \"end\": 258.386, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 258.386, \"end\": 258.526, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"提\", 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{\"word\": \"北\", \"start\": 876.928, \"end\": 877.088, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 877.088, \"end\": 877.228, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 877.228, \"end\": 877.409, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 877.409, \"end\": 878.129, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 878.129, \"end\": 878.669, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 878.669, \"end\": 879.029, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 879.029, \"end\": 879.21, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 879.21, \"end\": 879.51, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 879.51, \"end\": 880.09, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 880.09, \"end\": 881.231, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 881.231, \"end\": 881.551, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 900.211, \"end\": 900.291, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 900.291, \"end\": 900.351, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 900.351, \"end\": 900.531, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 900.531, \"end\": 900.551, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 902.084, \"end\": 902.404, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 902.404, \"end\": 902.545, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 902.545, \"end\": 902.785, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 902.785, \"end\": 902.945, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 902.945, \"end\": 902.965, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,836 --> 00:00:11,206\n謝謝副院長那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢\n\n2\n00:00:20,513 --> 00:00:45,840\n議員好院長好第一個想要問您總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過那行政院也沒有提出復議總統也已經宣布了但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關目前尚未開始審查我想問一下院長憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下\n\n3\n00:00:47,628 --> 00:00:51,930\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n4\n00:01:14,258 --> 00:01:15,599\n三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然\n\n5\n00:01:44,278 --> 00:02:02,586\n因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚\n\n6\n00:02:03,206 --> 00:02:15,610\n所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:25,754 --> 00:02:26,154\n﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚\n\n8\n00:02:38,035 --> 00:02:44,340\n請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?\n\n9\n00:03:06,638 --> 00:03:11,741\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n10\n00:03:25,748 --> 00:03:46,807\n那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,\n\n11\n00:03:48,408 --> 00:03:56,617\n您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?\n\n12\n00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:15,524\n所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?\n\n13\n00:04:15,524 --> 00:04:28,413\n尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?\n\n14\n00:04:29,534 --> 00:04:39,817\n我當然基於政治的倫理。是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?\n\n15\n00:04:39,817 --> 00:04:50,621\n不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?\n\n16\n00:04:52,418 --> 00:05:10,083\n我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:11,883 --> 00:05:14,665\n施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。\n\n18\n00:05:29,458 --> 00:05:30,439\n那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場\n\n19\n00:05:57,896 --> 00:06:11,582\n如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?\n\n20\n00:06:15,687 --> 00:06:35,247\n總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?\n\n21\n00:06:36,528 --> 00:06:39,432\n請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?\n\n22\n00:06:55,472 --> 00:07:20,533\n對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?\n\n23\n00:07:22,117 --> 00:07:26,060\n總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。七十幾位!\n\n24\n00:07:30,663 --> 00:07:34,806\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n25\n00:07:59,178 --> 00:07:59,778\n就是大家討論過6萬的版本\n\n26\n00:08:29,127 --> 00:08:49,105\n是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向\n\n27\n00:08:49,645 --> 00:09:07,535\n高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖\n\n28\n00:09:08,656 --> 00:09:09,377\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n29\n00:09:26,761 --> 00:09:52,077\n這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!\n\n30\n00:09:53,118 --> 00:10:10,422\n這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎院長這不是政黨的問題我沒有說這是政黨的問題它就是因為不是政黨的問題所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題\n\n31\n00:10:10,822 --> 00:10:30,499\n沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊\n\n32\n00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:31,540\n陳部長請備詢\n\n33\n00:10:53,932 --> 00:11:14,404\n議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?\n\n34\n00:11:19,025 --> 00:11:46,515\n我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。\n\n35\n00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:52,422\n可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了\n\n36\n00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:17,618\n所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧\n\n37\n00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:51,738\n大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣\n\n38\n00:12:52,827 --> 00:13:02,633\n但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?\n\n39\n00:13:08,381 --> 00:13:22,915\n陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。\n\n40\n00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:54,534\n部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。\n\n41\n00:13:55,034 --> 00:14:12,591\n那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。\n\n42\n00:14:19,418 --> 00:14:46,514\n所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去\n\n43\n00:14:47,746 --> 00:15:00,551\n報告委員三個原則第一個這個電價的調整第一個是反映台電的成本發電成本第二個是使用者付費第三個是對於營運比較不是那麼健全的我們漲幅比較少所以它是7%\n\n44\n00:15:02,084 --> 00:15:02,965\n好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7836\t11206\t謝謝副院長 那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢\n20513\t45840\t議員好 院長好 第一個想要問您 總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過 那行政院也沒有提出復議 總統也已經宣布了 但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關 目前尚未開始審查 我想問一下院長 憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下\n47628\t51930\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n74258\t75599\t三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然\n104278\t122586\t因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚\n123206\t135610\t所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?\n145754\t146154\t﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚\n158035\t164340\t請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?\n186638\t191741\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n205748\t226807\t那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,\n228408\t236617\t您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?\n248719\t255524\t所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?\n255524\t268413\t尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。 好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?\n269534\t279817\t我當然基於政治的倫理。 是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?\n279817\t290621\t不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。 對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?\n292418\t310083\t我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。 是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?\n311883\t314665\t施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。 我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。\n329458\t330439\t那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場\n357896\t371582\t如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?\n375687\t395247\t總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?\n396528\t399432\t請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?\n415472\t440533\t對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?\n442117\t446060\t總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。 七十幾位!\n450663\t454806\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n479178\t479778\t就是大家討論過6萬的版本\n509127\t529105\t是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向\n529645\t547535\t高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖\n548656\t549377\t徐巧芯徐巧芯\n566761\t592077\t這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!\n593118\t610422\t這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎 院長 這不是政黨的問題 我沒有說這是政黨的問題 它就是因為不是政黨的問題 所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊 不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題\n610822\t630499\t沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊\n631520\t631540\t陳部長請備詢\n653932\t674404\t議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?\n679025\t706515\t我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。\n708116\t712422\t可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了\n722555\t737618\t所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧\n752520\t771738\t大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣\n772827\t782633\t但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?\n788381\t802915\t陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。\n807320\t834534\t部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。\n835034\t852591\t那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。\n859418\t886514\t所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去\n887746\t900551\t報告委員 三個原則 第一個 這個 電價的調整 第一個是反映台電的成本 發電成本 第二個是使用者付費 第三個是對於營運比較 不是那麼健全的 我們漲幅比較少 所以它是7%\n902084\t902965\t好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。\n","txt":"謝謝副院長 那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢\n議員好 院長好 第一個想要問您 總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過 那行政院也沒有提出復議 總統也已經宣布了 但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關 目前尚未開始審查 我想問一下院長 憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然\n因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚\n所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?\n﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚\n請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,\n您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?\n所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?\n尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。 好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?\n我當然基於政治的倫理。 是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?\n不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。 對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?\n我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。 是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?\n施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。 我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。\n那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場\n如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?\n總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?\n請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?\n對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?\n總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。 七十幾位!\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n就是大家討論過6萬的版本\n是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向\n高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!\n這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎 院長 這不是政黨的問題 我沒有說這是政黨的問題 它就是因為不是政黨的問題 所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊 不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題\n沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊\n陳部長請備詢\n議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?\n我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。\n可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了\n所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧\n大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣\n但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?\n陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。\n部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。\n那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。\n所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去\n報告委員 三個原則 第一個 這個 電價的調整 第一個是反映台電的成本 發電成本 第二個是使用者付費 第三個是對於營運比較 不是那麼健全的 我們漲幅比較少 所以它是7%\n好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.836 --> 00:11.206\n謝謝副院長那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢\n\n00:20.513 --> 00:45.840\n議員好院長好第一個想要問您總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過那行政院也沒有提出復議總統也已經宣布了但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關目前尚未開始審查我想問一下院長憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下\n\n00:47.628 --> 00:51.930\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n01:14.258 --> 01:15.599\n三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然\n\n01:44.278 --> 02:02.586\n因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚\n\n02:03.206 --> 02:15.610\n所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?\n\n02:25.754 --> 02:26.154\n﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚\n\n02:38.035 --> 02:44.340\n請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?\n\n03:06.638 --> 03:11.741\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n03:25.748 --> 03:46.807\n那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,\n\n03:48.408 --> 03:56.617\n您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?\n\n04:08.719 --> 04:15.524\n所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?\n\n04:15.524 --> 04:28.413\n尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?\n\n04:29.534 --> 04:39.817\n我當然基於政治的倫理。是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?\n\n04:39.817 --> 04:50.621\n不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?\n\n04:52.418 --> 05:10.083\n我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?\n\n05:11.883 --> 05:14.665\n施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。\n\n05:29.458 --> 05:30.439\n那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場\n\n05:57.896 --> 06:11.582\n如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?\n\n06:15.687 --> 06:35.247\n總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?\n\n06:36.528 --> 06:39.432\n請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?\n\n06:55.472 --> 07:20.533\n對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?\n\n07:22.117 --> 07:26.060\n總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。七十幾位!\n\n07:30.663 --> 07:34.806\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n07:59.178 --> 07:59.778\n就是大家討論過6萬的版本\n\n08:29.127 --> 08:49.105\n是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向\n\n08:49.645 --> 09:07.535\n高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖\n\n09:08.656 --> 09:09.377\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n09:26.761 --> 09:52.077\n這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!\n\n09:53.118 --> 10:10.422\n這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎院長這不是政黨的問題我沒有說這是政黨的問題它就是因為不是政黨的問題所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題\n\n10:10.822 --> 10:30.499\n沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊\n\n10:31.520 --> 10:31.540\n陳部長請備詢\n\n10:53.932 --> 11:14.404\n議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?\n\n11:19.025 --> 11:46.515\n我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。\n\n11:48.116 --> 11:52.422\n可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了\n\n12:02.555 --> 12:17.618\n所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧\n\n12:32.520 --> 12:51.738\n大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣\n\n12:52.827 --> 13:02.633\n但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?\n\n13:08.381 --> 13:22.915\n陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。\n\n13:27.320 --> 13:54.534\n部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。\n\n13:55.034 --> 14:12.591\n那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。\n\n14:19.418 --> 14:46.514\n所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去\n\n14:47.746 --> 15:00.551\n報告委員三個原則第一個這個電價的調整第一個是反映台電的成本發電成本第二個是使用者付費第三個是對於營運比較不是那麼健全的我們漲幅比較少所以它是7%\n\n15:02.084 --> 15:02.965\n好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.836,"end":11.206,"text":"謝謝副院長 那我們有請卓院長卓院長請備詢"},{"start":20.513,"end":45.84,"text":"議員好 院長好 第一個想要問您 總預算目前因為這個進法補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過 那行政院也沒有提出復議 總統也已經宣布了 但在行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關 目前尚未開始審查 我想問一下院長 憲法當中我們提出復議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下"},{"start":47.628,"end":51.93,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":74.258,"end":75.599,"text":"三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式?當然"},{"start":104.278,"end":122.586,"text":"因為第一個我當時認為這個與憲法與法律都有所違背但我們再換個場景如果我當時提復議在大院的部分委員對我的批評又是另外一個那難道你沒有提復議了大家都沒有批評嗎我當時如果提復議一定又是罵得體無完膚"},{"start":123.206,"end":135.61,"text":"所以你是怕被罵所以不提復議的?那你剛剛就是這樣說啊,你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你所以你不提復議,但我剛剛重複問你一遍你又說不是,那是怎麼樣呢?那你覺得現在目前是好的方式嗎?現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了,請問是這樣嗎?"},{"start":145.754,"end":146.154,"text":"﹚徐巧芯﹚徐巧芯﹚"},{"start":158.035,"end":164.34,"text":"請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個是在法律之下按照預算的編列編4萬嗎?還是他是用什麼一個框架之下?"},{"start":186.638,"end":191.741,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":205.748,"end":226.807,"text":"那我請問一下,你這個是在禁法補償條例裡面提升到4萬,是這樣嗎?跟您做個確認。如果當時的協商,當時在法律討論的時候,修法的時候,行政的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。好,那了解了,所以你現在是這麼講嘛。但是問題是,我們今天,我再問你一個問題,如果是釋憲的話,"},{"start":228.408,"end":236.617,"text":"您會徵求徵詢賴總統的意見嗎?或者到目前為止您有沒有針對《禁法補償條例》跟賴總統進行過討論?我們在不復議的時候有跟總統報告,因為復議要經過總統同意我才能復議。所以總統不支持提出復議?"},{"start":248.719,"end":255.524,"text":"所以你不提出復議的時候,你向總統做了說明嘛,那總統的態度是什麼呢?"},{"start":255.524,"end":268.413,"text":"尊重行政院,所以他也認為你不提出復議這件事情是他認為認同的。 好,那接下來如果你再走到所謂的最後一步要釋憲與否的時候,你會再去向總統報告?"},{"start":269.534,"end":279.817,"text":"我當然基於政治的倫理。 是,你會再向總統報告,所以到時候如果你釋憲的話,我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲?"},{"start":279.817,"end":290.621,"text":"不必這麼理解,這行政院基於行政院的職權、立場,我們總統報告我們的決定。 對,那總統如果告訴你說,我不同意你們去釋憲,那你會尊重總統嗎?"},{"start":292.418,"end":310.083,"text":"我跟總統會講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出副委員,但我還是希望我不必做這種報告。 是啦,我在跟你討論嘛,我在跟你做各種討論嘛,因為這都有可能發生,因為事先這兩個字不排除事先是您說的呀,不然我也不會問您這個問題不是嗎?"},{"start":311.883,"end":314.665,"text":"施憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各方的權利。 我說在不得已的情況下,我必須考慮。"},{"start":329.458,"end":330.439,"text":"那我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場"},{"start":357.896,"end":371.582,"text":"如果總統說不的話,您會下台嗎?如果總統有其他的意見,他會跟我交換意見,但是那個結論不是現在我只能跟您報告的。沒有,我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換,所以如果總統反對釋憲的話,您會下台嗎?"},{"start":375.687,"end":395.247,"text":"總統反對釋憲的話對,就是您說您要釋憲,但總統說他反對總統不必反對釋憲,總統叫我下台我就下台了好,就你這句話那接下來我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情說可以去編那請問在當時在討論進法補償條例的時候您有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎?"},{"start":396.528,"end":399.432,"text":"請問這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的,那他們人在哪裡,在做什麼?"},{"start":415.472,"end":440.533,"text":"對,他們是民進黨黨籍,那他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法,所以我再重複一次,這件事情不是政黨的立場。來,他們提出的版本是幾萬元?提出6萬元,請問行政院有向他們去做溝通嗎?有,然後結果呢?那你知道整個民進黨有多少的比例的委員有做連署嗎?我知道。多少?"},{"start":442.117,"end":446.06,"text":"總共有好像七十幾位同意吧?沒有那麼多啦,七十幾位。 七十幾位!"},{"start":450.663,"end":454.806,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":479.178,"end":479.778,"text":"就是大家討論過6萬的版本"},{"start":509.127,"end":529.105,"text":"是誰的版本提案委員的版本我應該沒記錯是吳立華委員的版本不是啊是陳寅委員的版本陳寅委員的版本才是6萬高精素美委員的版本不是6萬比6萬少更接近您的目標跟方向"},{"start":529.645,"end":547.535,"text":"高金素美委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元﹖我相信也有人去跟他溝通﹖所以是5萬元﹖更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標﹖可是當時我在立法院的現場﹖我看到了什麼呢﹖我看到了既然民進黨提了6萬的版本﹖"},{"start":548.656,"end":549.377,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":566.761,"end":592.077,"text":"這就是我們現在覺得非常非常尷尬的地方嘛!那這兩個人是怎麼回事?那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們!欸!我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投!我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民!在五萬跟六萬之間選擇了六萬去支持原住民!結果你現在告訴我說你們可以騙了四萬!我們原本支持高金素美委員的版本還比較接近行政院欸!"},{"start":593.118,"end":610.422,"text":"這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎 院長 這不是政黨的問題 我沒有說這是政黨的問題 它就是因為不是政黨的問題 所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊 不是政黨的問題就不必一直提多少民進黨的委員的問題"},{"start":610.822,"end":630.499,"text":"沒有沒有我只是想要告訴你說他就是超越黨派的民進黨很多人支持國民黨也很多人支持然後我們當下看到既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持我們就來支持跨黨派的版本支持民進黨結果原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了只能4萬不早講啊"},{"start":631.52,"end":631.54,"text":"陳部長請備詢"},{"start":653.932,"end":674.404,"text":"議題到這邊,因為還有一點時間,我要問一下部長,我們這次電價調整,總體而言會影響到哪一些交通大眾交通工具?只要有用到電都會影響到?都會影響,那有哪一些大眾交通工具?像台鐵的部分,我們會每年增加多少經費?"},{"start":679.025,"end":706.515,"text":"我印象中他們給我的數據很像是3億還是2億多。不是,是4.56億。那高鐵呢?我還沒有看到他們的數據。高鐵沒有看到數據?部長這樣不行喔,因為李昆澤委員之前在質詢的時候,他PowerPoint上面都有,在交通委員會,是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億?委員,這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部講。這沒有很多,北捷、高鐵、台鐵、桃園、基捷、高捷,這沒有很多。"},{"start":708.116,"end":712.422,"text":"可是最近講了電價這是攸關民生的大事啊而且我剛剛說了先前在李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候他後面大大的powerpoint就已經把這些東西都寫出來了"},{"start":722.555,"end":737.618,"text":"所以你應該是看過這些資報的我很確定我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢啊所以不能說這不能說您做交通部長我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧那我來問這次叫電費的調漲請問部長一下台北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業哪一種的系統運輸業都市的吧"},{"start":752.52,"end":771.738,"text":"大眾捷運系統運輸業那漲幅是百分之多少?我知道台鐵跟高鐵是百分之14但是北捷我不知道一樣是百分之14所以捷運它都是屬於百分之14跟台鐵還有高鐵一樣"},{"start":772.827,"end":782.633,"text":"但是有另外一種分類,您應該很清楚,只有7%﹐高捷等捷運少了一半,那是哪一類的運輸系統?"},{"start":788.381,"end":802.915,"text":"陸上運輸系統,部長、院長您就這就對了嘛,好,院長顯然是比較熟悉喔,這些呢,比如說管道啊、人力車啊、蓄力車或纜車這種用電比較少的,其實你們反而漲它漲比較少,只漲了7%。"},{"start":807.32,"end":834.534,"text":"部長您現在了解了嗎?他們漲價的邏輯,他們針對這種用電比較衰退,產業比較衰退的反而是漲的比較少,然後人多的反而是比較多。所以你的那個大眾,就是比如說你現在的列管,你的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類?我覺得你部長你最基本應該要去做了解。所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常的多人,包含海警、警保都一樣。我是說你最基本,最基礎要去做一個了解嘛。"},{"start":835.034,"end":852.591,"text":"那我想問一下,就是剛剛其實就是院長所說的,我覺得啊,現在很多的,你剛剛那些都答不出來,我就不問你細節了。現在很多的話,比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本,他呢,從漲電價之後,從13%增加到16%,而且臺北捷運的電費就佔他的成本的13%。"},{"start":859.418,"end":886.514,"text":"所以我必須要講說一年上億次的人流在漲了電費之後對他們而言真的有很大的壓力那是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運我們就講捷運就好了對捷運包含桃園、台中、高雄、台北都有捷運能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼否則的話今年台電要跟我們要2000億的補貼我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去"},{"start":887.746,"end":900.551,"text":"報告委員 三個原則 第一個 這個 電價的調整 第一個是反映台電的成本 發電成本 第二個是使用者付費 第三個是對於營運比較 不是那麼健全的 我們漲幅比較少 所以它是7%"},{"start":902.084,"end":902.965,"text":"好,謝謝徐委員。謝謝卓院長。"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（16時45分）謝謝副院長，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。第一個想要問您的是，總預算目前因為禁伐補償條例已經在立法院三讀通過，行政院也沒有提出覆議，總統也已經公布了，但行政院卻沒有編列預算而卡關，目前尚未開始審查。我想問一下院長，在憲法中我們提出覆議與否的理由是在什麼情況之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院認為有窒礙難行的時候。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒錯，第三條規定，行政院對立法院決議之法律案，如果認為有窒礙難行之處，得經總統核可，移請覆議。所以「於心不忍」絕對不是一個送不送覆議案的理由，院長您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，您不知道那天在餐會上的現場為什麼我講出這樣的話。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請說說。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時是說，當時行政院沒有提出覆議，所以現在我們在談這件事情好像在法上站不住腳，我是說那時候很多人都要我提覆議……"],["徐委員巧芯：那您怎麼不提呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為我可以跟大院來談，我們用其他的方式來解決這個問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：三讀通過的法律要怎麼用其他的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然……"],["徐委員巧芯：當下如果您覺得窒礙難行，就應該要依照憲法來提出覆議，為什麼你不這麼做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為第一個，我當時認為這個與憲法及法律都有所違背，我們再換個場景，如果我當時提覆議，大院的部分委員對我的批評又會是另外一個，我不提覆議，現在是這樣的講法……"],["徐委員巧芯：難道你沒有提覆議，大家就沒有批評了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當初如果提覆議，一定又是罵的體無完膚。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你是怕被罵，所以不提覆議的？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我認為我們有好的方法……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你剛剛就是這樣說啊！你剛剛說因為會有很多人批評你，所以你不提覆議。但我剛剛重複問你一遍，你又說不是，那是怎麼樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我剛剛說了，我認為我們可以有好的方式可以好好地談，來解決這個問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：你覺得目前是好的方式嗎？現在你已經開始說又要去釋憲了，請問是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說那是萬不得已的時候，我還是非常不願意……"],["徐委員巧芯：萬不得已？你覺得什麼時候是萬不得已？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是非常不願意，如果我們得不到一個好的解決方法，比方我說只要未來不要用這種提議或立法的方式來……"],["徐委員巧芯：只要未來？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯，以後。"],["徐委員巧芯：以後？在您執政以後？好，那我想問一下，最近您講到禁伐補償並非一毛不編，可以編4萬，請問您所說的這4萬是在哪一個，是在法律之下按照預算的編列去編4萬嗎？還是在什麼框架之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個答復，第一點，我為什麼說行政院不是一毛不編，因為黃國昌委員說我們是一毛不編。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個，為什麼我說編4萬？因為依照預算法第九十一條，立法院對預算的歲出、歲入有所變更的時候，必須徵詢行政院的意見。當時我就說，如果我們衡量所有的狀況，由3萬調整到4萬，行政院是同意的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請問一下，你這個是在禁伐補償條例裡面提升到4萬，是這樣嗎？跟您做個確認。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時的協商、當時在法律討論的時候、修法的時候，行政院的立場是我們同意提升到4萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，瞭解了，所以你現在是這麼講嘛，但問題是今天我們……我再問您一個問題，如果是釋憲的話，您會徵求、徵詢賴總統的意見嗎？或者到目前為止，您有沒有針對禁伐補償條例跟賴總統討論過？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在不覆議的時候有跟總統報告，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：不覆議的時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為覆議要經過總統同意，我才能提覆議。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以總統不支持提出覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說我不提出覆議，我就講……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不提出覆議的時候，你向總統做了說明嘛，那總統的態度是什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統當然尊重行政院的……"],["徐委員巧芯：尊重行政院？所以他也認為你不提出覆議這件事情他是認同的？"],["卓院長榮泰：他認為這個部分行政院有職權，我們依職權決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，接下來如果你再走到所謂最後一步，也就是釋憲與否的時候，你會再去向總統報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，基於政治的倫理，覆議……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，你會再向總統報告，所以到時候如果你提釋憲的話，我是否可以理解為總統也同意您去釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：不必這麼理解，這是行政院基於行政院的職權、立場，我們向總統報告我們的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，那總統如果告訴你說「我不同意你們去釋憲」，你會尊重總統嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟總統講清楚行政院為什麼決定要提出覆議，在我……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果總統還是說不要……"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是希望，委員，我還是希望我不必做這種報告，我還是希望我們可以透過……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦，我在跟你討論嘛，我在跟你做各種討論嘛，因為這都有可能發生，因為釋憲這兩個字、不排除釋憲是您說的呀，不然我也不會問您這個問題，不是嗎？所以我問嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：釋憲兩個字……"],["徐委員巧芯：不排除釋憲這幾個字是您說的吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：釋憲這兩個字是憲法賦予我們各機關的權力……"],["徐委員巧芯：那您是不是今天、昨天這兩天都有談到最後不排除釋憲，有沒有這件事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說在不得已的情況之下我必須考慮……"],["徐委員巧芯：不得已？好，不得已的情況，在不得已的情況下不排除釋憲。那您剛剛說了，如果不排除釋憲，要釋憲的話，您會向總統報告，基於政治倫理，也就是說，如果最後走到了真的不得已的那一步，你去提了釋憲，是賴總統所同意的，可以這樣解讀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是我所決定的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是你所決定，但賴總統同意。如果總統一直告訴你說「不行，我堅決反對」，你會跟總統硬槓到底嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟他很清楚表明行政院的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果總統說「不」的話，你會下臺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果總統有其他的意見，他會跟我交換意見，但是那個結論不是現在我所能跟您報告的。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我只是跟您做一個意見上的交換，如果總統反對釋憲的話，您會下臺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統反對釋憲的話？"],["徐委員巧芯：對，就是您說您要釋憲，但總統說他反對。"],["卓院長榮泰：總統不必反對釋憲，總統叫我下臺，我就下臺了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，就你這句話。","接下來，我們剛剛講到您說4萬元這件事情可以去編，請問當時在討論禁伐補償條例的時候，你有去跟立法委員們溝通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟民進黨黨團，有請他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：你跟民進黨黨團溝通？來，我們看一下照片，好不好？請問您知道這兩位立法委員是哪一個黨籍的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我跟很多委員報告過，這件事情不是黨派之分，不是政黨之分。"],["徐委員巧芯：這兩個委員是民進黨黨籍的，請問他們人在哪裡？在做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他們是民進黨黨籍，他們是代表原住民提出這樣的想法，所以我……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們提出的版本是幾萬元？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再重複一次，這件事情不是政黨的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，他們提出的版本是幾萬元？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們有提出6萬元。"],["徐委員巧芯：提出6萬元，請問行政院有向他們溝通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有？然後結果呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們就是認為他們應該可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你知道整個民進黨有多少比例的委員有連署嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：總共好像七十幾位同意吧。"],["徐委員巧芯：唉，沒有那麼多啦，七十幾位？"],["卓院長榮泰：總共啦，總共。"],["徐委員巧芯：七十幾位？你確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是這個提案在表決的時候，我忘記了……"],["徐委員巧芯：七十幾位？我們立法院113個立委，如果七十幾個民進黨的立法委員的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我說全部。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我問的是民進黨！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這不是政黨的立場……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在只請問，你只要回答我的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有一一去數人頭。"],["徐委員巧芯：您只要回答我的問題就好。請問民進黨有多少個立法委員有連署6萬元的這個法案？6萬喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道，我沒有去數人頭。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不知道，對不對？那我告訴你，好不好？總共有60%，有33位的立法委員，來，我們看一下有哪些人喔，33位的立法委員加入了提案的連署，占了民進黨立法委員的六成。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們國民黨最後支持的版本，您應該很清楚，我們支持的是誰的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是大家討論過6萬的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：是誰的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：提案委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：哪一位委員？"],["卓院長榮泰：我應該沒記錯，是伍麗華委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：並不是啊，是陳瑩委員的版本。"],["卓院長榮泰：喔，陳瑩委員的版本。"],["徐委員巧芯：陳瑩委員的版本才是6萬，高金素梅委員的版本不是6萬，比6萬少，更接近您的目標跟方向，高金素梅委員當時跟我們講的版本是5萬元，我相信也有人去跟他溝通，所以是5萬元，更接近您剛剛講的4萬的目標。可是當時我在現場，我在立法院的現場，我看到了什麼呢？我看到了既然民進黨提出6萬的版本，乾脆多給原住民一些幫助好了，我就支持了民進黨，結果沒想到你現在告訴我說你們有溝通，你有去找過民進黨黨團溝通，然後民進黨黨團應該也要跟這些委員講，他們提了6萬，還有六成的民進黨立委支持，那你今天怎麼跟我們立法院說有溝通呢？這就是我們現在覺得非常、非常尷尬的地方嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們透過民進黨黨團有清楚地表達行政院的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：那這兩個人是怎麼回事？那他讓所有的人跟著一起去投了他們，欸，我們國民黨的也跟著他們去投，我們不分黨派一起幫助原住民，在5萬跟6萬之間選擇了6萬去支持原住民，結果你現在告訴我說你們可以編4萬，我們原本支持的高金素梅委員版本還比較接近行政院！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我再說一次……"],["徐委員巧芯：這不是搞了一個天大的烏龍嗎？院長，天大的烏龍啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我再強調一次，這不是政黨的問題，這是這件事情該不該的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有說這是政黨的問題，就是因為不是政黨的問題，所以我們才去支持了民進黨的版本啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是政黨的問題，就不必一直提有多少個民進黨委員的說法。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有、沒有，我只是想要告訴你說，它就是超越黨派的……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：民進黨很多人支持，國民黨也很多人支持，然後我們當下看到，既然民進黨能夠給予原住民更多的支持，我們就來支持跨黨派的版本，支持民進黨，結果，原來你們早就跟這些委員們溝通好了，只能4萬，不早講啊！早講問題就不會發生了，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有跟民進黨黨團表達過清楚的立場。"],["徐委員巧芯：那這兩個人到底是怎麼回事啊？你們以後是不是……我真的覺得很荒謬，我還有很多問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在如果委員有這樣的想法……"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我們請陳世凱部長，請交通部長上台，好不好？謝謝主席，麻煩主席。"],["主席：陳部長請備詢。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個議題到這邊，因為還有一點時間，我要問一下部長，我們這次電價調整，總體而言會影響到哪一些大眾交通工具？"],["陳部長世凱：只要有用到電都會影響到。"],["徐委員巧芯：都會影響。那有哪一些大眾交通，像臺鐵的部分，我們會每年增加……"],["陳部長世凱：軌道相對多一些。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺鐵的部分，每年我們會增加多少經費？"],["陳部長世凱：我印象中，他們給我的數據好像是3億還是兩億多。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是喔，是4.56億，那高鐵呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我還沒有看到他們的數據。"],["徐委員巧芯：高鐵沒有看到數據？部長，這樣不行喔，因為李昆澤委員之前在在交通委員會質詢的時候，他的PowerPoint上面都有，是3.6億。那請問北捷每年會增加多少億？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，這麼多的數據我沒有辦法全部記住。"],["徐委員巧芯：這沒有很多，北捷、高鐵、臺鐵、桃園機捷、高捷，這沒有很多。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，交通部的業務非常多，你應該非常清楚吧？交通部的業務非常多，不是只有這些單位而已，我沒有辦法……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是最近漲了電價，這是攸關民生的大事。而且我剛剛說了，先前李昆澤委員在質詢你的時候，他後面大大的PowerPoint，就已經把這些東西都寫出來了，所以你應該是看過這些資料的，我很確定，我還去交通委員會看了所有人對您的質詢，所以不能說您做交通部長，我比你還認真看交通委員會的質詢吧？"],["陳部長世凱：那您剛剛在問的臺北捷運，請問一下，剛剛您問的臺北捷運，我那天沒有看到……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我來問。這一次電費的調漲，請問部長一下，臺北捷運是屬於哪一種的系統運輸業？"],["陳部長世凱：哪一種的系統運輸業？都市的吧。"],["徐委員巧芯：大眾捷運系統運輸業。"],["陳部長世凱：大眾運輸系統。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。那漲幅是百分之多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道臺鐵跟高鐵是14%，但是北捷我不知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：一樣是14%，所以捷運它都是屬於14%，跟臺鐵還有高鐵一樣，但是有另外一種分類，您應該很清楚，只有7%，比北捷、高捷等捷運少了一半，那是哪一類的運輸系統？"],["陳部長世凱：請委員指教。"],["卓院長榮泰：用電衰退的。"],["徐委員巧芯：陸上運輸系統，部長。院長，您這就對了嘛，院長顯然是比較熟悉喔。這些比如說管道、人力車、畜力車或纜車這種用電比較少的，其實你們反而漲它的電價漲得比較少，只漲了7%……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它的業務衰退。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，您現在了解了嘛，他們漲價的邏輯，他們針對這種用電比較衰退、產業比較衰退的，反而是漲得比較少……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我理解。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後人多的，反而是漲比較多，所以你的大眾運輸，就是比如說你現在列管的運輸裡面有哪幾種分類，我覺得部長，你最基本應該要去了解……"],["陳部長世凱：……使用，所以我們的大眾捷運系統非常地多人，包含……"],["徐委員巧芯：我是說你最基本、最基礎要去了解嘛。那我想問一下，其實就是剛剛院長所說的，我覺得現在很多的……你剛剛那些都答不出來，我就不問你細節了，現在很多，比方說像臺北捷運的營運成本，漲電價之後它從13%增加到16%，而且臺北捷運的電費就占它成本的13%，所以我必須要講說，一年上億次的人流，在漲了電費之後，對他們而言真的有很大的壓力。是不是有可能未來針對這些捷運，我們就講捷運就好了，對捷運，包含桃園、臺中、高雄、臺北都有捷運，能夠去給予他們相對應的補貼，否則的話，今年台電要跟我們要2,000億的撥補，我們不知道這錢怎麼給出去。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，電價的調整有三個原則，第一個是反映台電的發電成本；第二個是使用者付費；第三個是對於營運比較不是那麼健全的，我們的漲幅比較少，所以它會是7%。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我希望未來我們在捷運的部分是不是能夠給予補貼？因為這個是跟人民的生活息息相關的，尤其像臺北捷運每天有這麼多人搭，如果因為漲了電價又漲了票價，那會讓人民苦不堪言。現在台電要跟我們要2,000億，你說這樣的預算讓我們如何能夠給得下去，所以我們希望院長、部長都好好去做考量，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再檢討一下他們的成本。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員，謝謝卓院長。接下來我們請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","郭國文","張嘉郡","柯志恩","林憶君","廖先翔","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","賴惠員","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","黃建賓","陳超明","吳琪銘","陳秀寳","徐巧芯","林倩綺","邱若華"],"page_start":44,"meetingDate":["2024-10-18"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00002","1138101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00008"}}}