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808.999, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 808.999, \"end\": 809.099, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 809.099, \"end\": 809.119, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 809.119, \"end\": 809.199, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"迎\", \"start\": 809.199, \"end\": 809.219, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 809.219, \"end\": 809.259, \"score\": 0.147}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 809.259, \"end\": 809.279, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:02,791\n委員會主席有請部長謝謝有請林部長這個是訂閱我的嗎?謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:16,385 --> 00:00:35,067\n部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情,就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的?\n\n3\n00:00:36,964 --> 00:01:00,812\n這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求\n\n4\n00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:08,318\n因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來\n\n5\n00:01:10,787 --> 00:01:33,408\n10月7日他又再要求一次限期說一定要簽署首度因為這件事情發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多\n\n6\n00:01:34,108 --> 00:01:57,461\n比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個注夢買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何\n\n7\n00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:09,454\n我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒\n\n8\n00:02:11,850 --> 00:02:39,819\n國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象\n\n9\n00:02:41,001 --> 00:03:04,355\n對,但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些,譬如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些?\n\n10\n00:03:05,787 --> 00:03:25,840\n這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明\n\n11\n00:03:28,021 --> 00:03:44,959\n其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名然後另外就是說阻擾我們辦的活動\n\n12\n00:03:47,321 --> 00:04:14,799\n還有相關的這些施壓的動作是很多我們都密切關注而且把它分類妥善的再因應那有一些我們就是透過事先的努力也可以做一些預防或阻止但是有一些因為我想它受制於中國的威脅利誘這種情況之下我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益那基本上就是基於我們對等的原則在從事外交的行動這個是我們基本的原則\n\n13\n00:04:15,820 --> 00:04:34,873\n對,我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的這個方式本來就沒那麼多啦但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關,是國防部那國防部他這一個有一些情報員的財產各自外流那這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形,一種可能就是駭客攻擊\n\n14\n00:04:35,413 --> 00:04:37,694\n對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是\n\n15\n00:05:04,067 --> 00:05:26,342\n資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善\n\n16\n00:05:27,082 --> 00:05:27,282\n沈伯洋議員\n\n17\n00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:40,496\n委員會主席\n\n18\n00:05:58,032 --> 00:06:24,386\n對,因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對,所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前\n\n19\n00:06:25,006 --> 00:06:43,898\n那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這一個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼\n\n20\n00:06:46,178 --> 00:07:11,460\n因為這個不是第一次我第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來補充說明跟委員報告那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的\n\n21\n00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:35,628\n他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公布之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中\n\n22\n00:07:36,668 --> 00:07:58,261\n這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作\n\n23\n00:07:58,701 --> 00:07:59,061\n請多加關注俄羅斯行動\n\n24\n00:08:14,534 --> 00:08:30,352\n是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官嘛那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰啊什麼等等之類的然後接下來的左上角這邊他有說這個60萬的這一個間諜大軍那這一個間諜大軍這一塊\n\n25\n00:08:36,118 --> 00:08:36,398\n中國﹐他的這一﹐\n\n26\n00:09:05,118 --> 00:09:24,253\n國外的滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄\n\n27\n00:09:25,054 --> 00:09:25,595\n李卓人議員\n\n28\n00:09:40,899 --> 00:09:59,459\n相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作。\n\n29\n00:10:00,273 --> 00:10:20,049\n因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍\n\n30\n00:10:20,709 --> 00:10:21,329\n我跟委員分享一個資訊\n\n31\n00:10:46,460 --> 00:11:08,609\n推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至是一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切\n\n32\n00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:35,304\n這個是所謂的安全思路這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會因為在第一線攻防嘛那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家大家來這個共同的應處\n\n33\n00:11:37,125 --> 00:12:05,535\n謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事\n\n34\n00:12:07,472 --> 00:12:20,236\n新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個\n\n35\n00:12:22,202 --> 00:12:42,126\n指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,\n\n36\n00:12:42,606 --> 00:13:11,022\n他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在\n\n37\n00:13:11,662 --> 00:13:27,518\n所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括\n\n38\n00:13:28,018 --> 00:13:29,279\n謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t2791\t委員會主席有請部長謝謝有請林部長這個是訂閱我的嗎?謝謝\n16385\t35067\t部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情,就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的?\n36964\t60812\t這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求\n62119\t68318\t因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來\n70787\t93408\t10月7日他又再要求一次限期說一定要簽署首度因為這件事情發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多\n94108\t117461\t比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個注夢買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何\n120236\t129454\t我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒\n131850\t159819\t國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象\n161001\t184355\t對,但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些,譬如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些?\n185787\t205840\t這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明\n208021\t224959\t其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名然後另外就是說阻擾我們辦的活動\n227321\t254799\t還有相關的這些施壓的動作是很多我們都密切關注而且把它分類妥善的再因應那有一些我們就是透過事先的努力也可以做一些預防或阻止但是有一些因為我想它受制於中國的威脅利誘這種情況之下我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益那基本上就是基於我們對等的原則在從事外交的行動這個是我們基本的原則\n255820\t274873\t對,我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的這個方式本來就沒那麼多啦但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關,是國防部那國防部他這一個有一些情報員的財產各自外流那這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形,一種可能就是駭客攻擊\n275413\t277694\t對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是\n304067\t326342\t資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善\n327082\t327282\t沈伯洋議員\n340316\t340496\t委員會主席\n358032\t384386\t對,因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對,所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前\n385006\t403898\t那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這一個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼\n406178\t431460\t因為這個不是第一次我第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來補充說明跟委員報告那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的\n431960\t455628\t他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公布之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中\n456668\t478261\t這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作\n478701\t479061\t請多加關注俄羅斯行動\n494534\t510352\t是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官嘛那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰啊什麼等等之類的然後接下來的左上角這邊他有說這個60萬的這一個間諜大軍那這一個間諜大軍這一塊\n516118\t516398\t中國﹐他的這一﹐\n545118\t564253\t國外的滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄\n565054\t565595\t李卓人議員\n580899\t599459\t相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作。\n600273\t620049\t因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍\n620709\t621329\t我跟委員分享一個資訊\n646460\t668609\t推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至是一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切\n672150\t695304\t這個是所謂的安全思路 這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管 因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會 因為在第一線攻防嘛 那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家 大家來這個共同的應處\n697125\t725535\t謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事\n727472\t740236\t新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個\n742202\t762126\t指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,\n762606\t791022\t他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在\n791662\t807518\t所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括\n808018\t809279\t謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席\n","txt":"委員會主席有請部長謝謝有請林部長這個是訂閱我的嗎?謝謝\n部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情,就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的?\n這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求\n因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來\n10月7日他又再要求一次限期說一定要簽署首度因為這件事情發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多\n比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個注夢買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何\n我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒\n國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象\n對,但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些,譬如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些?\n這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明\n其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名然後另外就是說阻擾我們辦的活動\n還有相關的這些施壓的動作是很多我們都密切關注而且把它分類妥善的再因應那有一些我們就是透過事先的努力也可以做一些預防或阻止但是有一些因為我想它受制於中國的威脅利誘這種情況之下我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益那基本上就是基於我們對等的原則在從事外交的行動這個是我們基本的原則\n對,我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的這個方式本來就沒那麼多啦但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關,是國防部那國防部他這一個有一些情報員的財產各自外流那這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形,一種可能就是駭客攻擊\n對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是\n資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善\n沈伯洋議員\n委員會主席\n對,因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對,所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前\n那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這一個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼\n因為這個不是第一次我第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來補充說明跟委員報告那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的\n他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公布之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中\n這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作\n請多加關注俄羅斯行動\n是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官嘛那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰啊什麼等等之類的然後接下來的左上角這邊他有說這個60萬的這一個間諜大軍那這一個間諜大軍這一塊\n中國﹐他的這一﹐\n國外的滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄\n李卓人議員\n相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作。\n因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍\n我跟委員分享一個資訊\n推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至是一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切\n這個是所謂的安全思路 這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管 因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會 因為在第一線攻防嘛 那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家 大家來這個共同的應處\n謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事\n新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個\n指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,\n他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在\n所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括\n謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:02.791\n委員會主席有請部長謝謝有請林部長這個是訂閱我的嗎?謝謝\n\n00:16.385 --> 00:35.067\n部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情,就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的?\n\n00:36.964 --> 01:00.812\n這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求\n\n01:02.119 --> 01:08.318\n因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來\n\n01:10.787 --> 01:33.408\n10月7日他又再要求一次限期說一定要簽署首度因為這件事情發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多\n\n01:34.108 --> 01:57.461\n比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個注夢買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何\n\n02:00.236 --> 02:09.454\n我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒\n\n02:11.850 --> 02:39.819\n國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象\n\n02:41.001 --> 03:04.355\n對,但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些,譬如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些?\n\n03:05.787 --> 03:25.840\n這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明\n\n03:28.021 --> 03:44.959\n其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名然後另外就是說阻擾我們辦的活動\n\n03:47.321 --> 04:14.799\n還有相關的這些施壓的動作是很多我們都密切關注而且把它分類妥善的再因應那有一些我們就是透過事先的努力也可以做一些預防或阻止但是有一些因為我想它受制於中國的威脅利誘這種情況之下我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益那基本上就是基於我們對等的原則在從事外交的行動這個是我們基本的原則\n\n04:15.820 --> 04:34.873\n對,我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的這個方式本來就沒那麼多啦但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關,是國防部那國防部他這一個有一些情報員的財產各自外流那這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形,一種可能就是駭客攻擊\n\n04:35.413 --> 04:37.694\n對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是\n\n05:04.067 --> 05:26.342\n資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善\n\n05:27.082 --> 05:27.282\n沈伯洋議員\n\n05:40.316 --> 05:40.496\n委員會主席\n\n05:58.032 --> 06:24.386\n對,因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對,所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前\n\n06:25.006 --> 06:43.898\n那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這一個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼\n\n06:46.178 --> 07:11.460\n因為這個不是第一次我第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來補充說明跟委員報告那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的\n\n07:11.960 --> 07:35.628\n他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公布之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中\n\n07:36.668 --> 07:58.261\n這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作\n\n07:58.701 --> 07:59.061\n請多加關注俄羅斯行動\n\n08:14.534 --> 08:30.352\n是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官嘛那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰啊什麼等等之類的然後接下來的左上角這邊他有說這個60萬的這一個間諜大軍那這一個間諜大軍這一塊\n\n08:36.118 --> 08:36.398\n中國﹐他的這一﹐\n\n09:05.118 --> 09:24.253\n國外的滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄\n\n09:25.054 --> 09:25.595\n李卓人議員\n\n09:40.899 --> 09:59.459\n相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作。\n\n10:00.273 --> 10:20.049\n因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍\n\n10:20.709 --> 10:21.329\n我跟委員分享一個資訊\n\n10:46.460 --> 11:08.609\n推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至是一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切\n\n11:12.150 --> 11:35.304\n這個是所謂的安全思路這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會因為在第一線攻防嘛那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家大家來這個共同的應處\n\n11:37.125 --> 12:05.535\n謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事\n\n12:07.472 --> 12:20.236\n新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個\n\n12:22.202 --> 12:42.126\n指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,\n\n12:42.606 --> 13:11.022\n他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在\n\n13:11.662 --> 13:27.518\n所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括\n\n13:28.018 --> 13:29.279\n謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":2.791,"text":"委員會主席有請部長謝謝有請林部長這個是訂閱我的嗎?謝謝"},{"start":16.385,"end":35.067,"text":"部長不好意思,剛剛桌上還有文件我嚇一跳,你好,那這個因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情,所以我想說我比較簡略的問一些其他的事情,就是說這一次他要求要把這個辦事處遷出台北,那我其實比較好奇的事情是這一件事情是大概什麼時候發生的?"},{"start":36.964,"end":60.812,"text":"這個在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及那今年4月的時候就是有這個提出就是限期半年我們要這個簽管然後到了這個10月7號的時候更是以電函那就是要求"},{"start":62.119,"end":68.318,"text":"因為我看他報導是10月17號所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情所以才會再度被報導出來"},{"start":70.787,"end":93.408,"text":"10月7日他又再要求一次限期說一定要簽署首度因為這件事情發生的時間比較長那這個中間到底有沒有威脅就是說有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的這個其實是外交部在盤點的那這邊我不細問但我現在比較擔心的事情就是說像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多"},{"start":94.108,"end":117.461,"text":"比如說這一個我們這一個這個是在這個新社這個注夢買的一個辦事處那中國的外交部也是提出說要嚴正的一個交涉然後再來就是這一次這個也是大概稍微往前一點因為外交部上禮拜沒有過來那他是說這一個蒙古說是這個鼠疫的疫情那使這個國慶的這個臨時取消那這一件事情請問目前的這個進度為何"},{"start":120.236,"end":129.454,"text":"我們先有召見他駐台的代表那另外也跟他們交涉中因為這個事情他們以這個我們辦國會酒"},{"start":131.85,"end":159.819,"text":"國慶酒會的現場所以疑似說是有什麼樣的事故那封鎖起來就沒有辦法進去所以因此也就被迫取消但是這件事情我想對於不只對我想我們台灣我想對蒙古本身做一個獨立自主的國家他怎麼去面對中國的壓力那在這種之下用這樣的理由我想這個當然會影響他們國家的形象"},{"start":161.001,"end":184.355,"text":"對,但是我現在比較擔心的就是說因為他們現在用的理由他不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由他就用一些,譬如說有疾病啊什麼有等等之類的那這個會造成我們在反制上面的困難啦像南非這個是很直接嘛他說要叫你遷出首都但如果說今天是一個比較灰色的方式用這樣各式各樣看起來好像又可以接受的理由那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些?"},{"start":185.787,"end":205.84,"text":"這個沒有一個國家會說宣稱自己國家有屬意吧那個壓力多大或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害我想可能對蒙古更大吧那我們當然都妥善因應中其實該召見我們就召見抗議然後要求他們說明"},{"start":208.021,"end":224.959,"text":"其實中共在我們我想從今年初總統大選到這個總統副總統就職典禮到我們雙十國慶的活動它的打壓包括要求我們這個簽署改名然後另外就是說阻擾我們辦的活動"},{"start":227.321,"end":254.799,"text":"還有相關的這些施壓的動作是很多我們都密切關注而且把它分類妥善的再因應那有一些我們就是透過事先的努力也可以做一些預防或阻止但是有一些因為我想它受制於中國的威脅利誘這種情況之下我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益那基本上就是基於我們對等的原則在從事外交的行動這個是我們基本的原則"},{"start":255.82,"end":274.873,"text":"對,我個人是認為說因為我們外交上能夠反制的這個方式本來就沒那麼多啦但今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心這其實跟外交部無關,是國防部那國防部他這一個有一些情報員的財產各自外流那這個在我們的外館也有可能會出現因為這有兩種情形,一種可能就是駭客攻擊"},{"start":275.413,"end":277.694,"text":"對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下不管是從資安的方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面因為這個可能會變成另外一種威脅的方式是"},{"start":304.067,"end":326.342,"text":"資安就是國安在外交部尤其如此所以我們除了我們資安處我們全面的在做一些檢視跟檢討那我們對外管因為他所處的地方有時候就是有一些不是完全能夠我們能夠掌握的那我們也去做這個檢查去改善"},{"start":327.082,"end":327.282,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":340.316,"end":340.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":358.032,"end":384.386,"text":"對,因為我現在擔心的就是說因為我們現在都知道資安重要然後資安也越做越好但有時候他反而不是資安他可能造特傷其實資安有一些涉及到人安對,所以這方面拜託部長就是可能因為我知道外交人員他更容易被針對所以尤其在外管的部分這個如果有這相關情勢的話變成說我們在做反制的時候他變成有一些威脅的條件那這個對我們會非常的不利是那再來就是這一個是俄羅斯的事情這個稍微在更早以前"},{"start":385.006,"end":403.898,"text":"那前面是這個俄羅斯的駭客攻擊我們的這個單位這個是一件事但因為後來俄羅斯是在9月的時候他有發布這一個價值觀敵對的國家那現在目前這件事情的進度為何我們當時除了就是說我們當然是不認同他這樣的一個處置之外現在接下來的進度是什麼"},{"start":406.178,"end":431.46,"text":"因為這個不是第一次我第一時間也做了這個回應那現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來補充說明跟委員報告那俄羅斯是9月20號發布了這個價值觀敵對國家的一個名單那包含了47個民主國家也把台灣列在裡面那其實他是因為針對這個民主國家之前對他的一些不友善的"},{"start":431.96,"end":455.628,"text":"他認為的不友善的態度他做了一個反制那目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處能夠密切注意他的一個發展那其實他是在這個名單公布之後他有另外有一個方向就是鼓勵這些國家的這些民眾可以去申請到俄羅斯去拘留那他實際的後續的一個進行是什麼樣的一個方式我們的住處也隨時在密切觀察中"},{"start":456.668,"end":478.261,"text":"這邊就提醒一下就是說因為我們之前面臨這一個中國的法律戰這個外交部當然是非常的熟悉那因為現在北韓跟這一個俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切然後接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係那今天在打這個法律戰的時候呢中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰他會有其他的這個協助那我們目前是看到資訊上的合作駭客上的合作"},{"start":478.701,"end":479.061,"text":"請多加關注俄羅斯行動"},{"start":494.534,"end":510.352,"text":"是那接下來這一個這個是一個比較小的一個問題就是說因為現在呢不管是這一個這個紐約之前那個高官嘛那個間諜活動就是說去擋我們說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰啊什麼等等之類的然後接下來的左上角這邊他有說這個60萬的這一個間諜大軍那這一個間諜大軍這一塊"},{"start":516.118,"end":516.398,"text":"中國﹐他的這一﹐"},{"start":545.118,"end":564.253,"text":"國外的滲透包括資訊操作包括很多的這些情報人員事實上隨著他力量的擴張包括他這一帶一路的投資或者是說他針對有關於一些僑社的操弄"},{"start":565.054,"end":565.595,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":580.899,"end":599.459,"text":"相對來講,在一些國家的商社或僑社的滲透,我們是從情報中都有發現它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、收集跟操作。"},{"start":600.273,"end":620.049,"text":"因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員他必須要去協助他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例就是說他現在非常針對我們也有在收集情報的人員他也有針對我們外館的人因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話可能被反將一軍"},{"start":620.709,"end":621.329,"text":"我跟委員分享一個資訊"},{"start":646.46,"end":668.609,"text":"推動這個所謂安全思路因為所謂一帶一路他的很多投資所在之地其實就在收集情報而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸這個已經都影響到很多當地國家人家的這個這包括不管是說經濟甚至是一個民主政治的運作也引起很多國家的這個關切"},{"start":672.15,"end":695.304,"text":"這個是所謂的安全思路 這個也是值得我們重視我們也透過我們外管 因為外管也是一個我們可以做這個情報收集的自然就是會 因為在第一線攻防嘛 那我們也有這些寶貴的情報那也會跟我們的理念相近國家 大家來這個共同的應處"},{"start":697.125,"end":725.535,"text":"謝謝那今天因為這個外交部很久沒有問了所以問題稍微比較雜一點但最後一個問題就是我們就看到有報導就是說有記者說有一些這個媒體就他們自己他可能是freelance那他可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿結果有些外國媒體說這個台灣不能寫台灣寫那個島語那這個呢外交部其實是有所回應的我們有看到這個發言人那我想知道一下就是這一件事情有沒有後續因為這個對我們來講其實是非常嚴重的一件事"},{"start":727.472,"end":740.236,"text":"新聞的自由跟我們是捍衛我們希望不要有紅色的恐怖以前講白色恐怖造成這些記者媒體的一個"},{"start":742.202,"end":762.126,"text":"指自我檢查,如果發生這些事情,我們當然如果瞭解說,我們會看怎麼樣來協助,也來做好因應。對,因為怕說他可能現在單一個案,但之後怕是有系統性的。那如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者,他能夠有力量,我覺得是非常重要的一件事,那不然的話,"},{"start":762.606,"end":791.022,"text":"他今天寫個稿他今天只是因為違反把台灣這個字寫出來就變成他以後就不能再做了這個其實對這又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭確實委員中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化經貿也要武器化觀光也要武器化你要去中國做研究他也把你這些學者要控制你你的研究然後限制這些媒體就是說他真的是這個好像幽靈一樣無所不在"},{"start":791.662,"end":807.518,"text":"所以這個已經不是台灣的問題而已這是全世界面對到中共這種數位集權的操控所導致的威脅那我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應這是為什麼台灣現在要推動我們總和外交包括"},{"start":808.018,"end":809.279,"text":"謝謝部長,外交部也必須要迎戰,謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長，不好意思，看到桌上還有文件，我嚇一跳。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。因為剛剛大家都在問南非的事情，所以我想說我就比較簡略，我問一些其他的事情，這次它要求要把辦事處遷出首都，其實我比較好奇的是這一件事情大概是什麼時候發生的？"],["林部長佳龍：在去年底的時候他們就有口頭提及，今年4月的時候提出限期半年我們要遷館，到了10月7號更是以電函要求。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我看報導是10月17號，所以我就想說是因為近期發生了什麼事情，所以才會再度被報導出來，剛剛部長講的是10月7號的時候它又再要求一次限期一定要遷出首都這樣嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為這件事情畢竟發生的時間比較長，這中間到底有沒有威脅，就是有沒有中國的施壓等等之類的，這個其實是外交部在盤點的，這邊我就不細問。但我現在比較擔心的事情就是，像這種威脅會不會變得越來越多？譬如說，我們新設了駐孟買的辦事處，中國的外交部也是提出要嚴正交涉；然後再來就是這一次，這個也是稍微往前一點，因為外交部上個禮拜沒有過來，它是說蒙古說因為鼠疫疫情，使國慶酒會臨時取消，有關這件事情，請問目前的進度為何？"],["林部長佳龍：我們其實有召見它駐臺的代表，另外也跟他們交涉中，因為這個事情，他們以我們辦國慶酒會的現場，說疑似有什麼樣的事故而封鎖起來，所以沒辦法進去，因此也就被迫取消。但是這件事情我想不只對於我們臺灣，對於蒙古本身作為一個獨立自主的國家，它怎麼去面對中國的壓力，在這種情況之下用這樣的理由，我想當然會影響他們國家的形象嘛。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是我現在比較擔心的就是，因為他們現在不會用一些冠冕堂皇的理由，就用一些譬如說有疾病什麼等等之類的，這會造成我們在反制上面的困難，像南非這個是很直接，它說要叫我們遷出首都，但如果說今天是用一個比較灰色的方式，用這樣各式各樣、看起來好像又可以接受的理由，那我們現在反制的措施會有哪些？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，沒有一個國家會宣稱自己國家有鼠疫吧？這個壓力多大，或者是這種資訊操弄的傷害，我想可能對於蒙古更大吧！我們當然都妥善因應中，該召見我們就召見，抗議，然後要求他們說明。其實中共從我們今年初總統大選到總統副總統就職典禮，到我們雙十國慶的活動，它的打壓包括要求我們遷處改名，另外就是阻擾我們辦的活動，還有相關的施壓動作很多，我們都密切關注，而且把它分類並妥善因應，有一些我們就透過事先的努力，也可以做一些預防或阻止；但是有一些，我想因為它受制於中國的威脅利誘，在這種情況之下，我們怎麼樣捍衛我們國家的利益，基本上就是基於我們對等的原則，在從事外交的行動，這是我們基本的原則。"],["沈委員伯洋：我個人是認為，因為我們外交上能夠反制的方式本來就沒那麼多，今天早上有一個新聞會讓我們更擔心，這其實跟外交部無關，是國防部，國防部有一些情報員的財產個資外流，這在我們的外館也有可能會出現，因為這有兩種情形，一種可能就是駭客攻擊，這部分我之前在質詢的時候已經有說過必須要加強資安等等之類的；但這一次比較不一樣的是，按照這個新聞報導，也有可能是內部的流出，就是內部造冊等等之類的。因為這才剛剛就是今天才出現的新聞，不知道外交部對於這件事情有沒有先稍微盤點一下？不管是從資安方面還是從內部可能滲透的方面，因為這可能會變成另外一種威脅方式。"],["林部長佳龍：是，資安就是國安，在外交部尤其如此，所以除了我們資安處全面在做一些檢視跟檢討，我們對外館，因為它所處的地方有時候有些不是我們完全能夠掌握的，我們也去做檢查、去改善，所以這個部分是我們業務的重點，因為任何外交部涉及到的這些情報或資訊都會影響國家安全，我們會非常重視，妥善地檢視我們現在的資安情形，然後做好改善，發生事故的時候，我們的應變標準作業程序，我們也不斷地在做演練。"],["沈委員伯洋：我現在擔心的就是，因為我們現在都知道資安重要，然後資安也越做越好，但有時候反而不是資安，可能是在造冊上……"],["林部長佳龍：其實資安有些涉及到人安。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，所以這方面拜託部長，因為我知道外交人員更容易被針對，尤其在外館的部分如果有相關情事的話，變成我們在做反制的時候它會有一些威脅條件，這對我們會非常地不利。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來這是俄羅斯的事情，這個稍微又再更早以前，前面是俄羅斯駭客攻擊我們的單位，這是一件事，後來俄羅斯在9月的時候有發布價值觀敵對的國家，目前這件事情的進度為何？當時除了是說我們當然是不認同它這樣的處置之外，現在接下來的進度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：好，因為這不是第一次，我們第一時間也做了回應，現在後續的情況我請我們亞非司長來跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["賀司長忠義：跟委員報告，俄羅斯是9月20號發布價值觀敵對國家的名單，包含了47個民主國家，也把臺灣列在裡面，其實它是針對民主國家之前對它的一些它認為不友善的態度，它做了一個反制，目前我們請駐俄羅斯代表處密切注意它的發展，其實在這個名單公布之後，它另外有一個方向，就是鼓勵這些國家的民眾可以申請到俄羅斯居留，那它後續實際的進行是什麼樣的方式，我們的駐處也隨時在密切觀察中。"],["沈委員伯洋：這邊就提醒一下，因為我們之前面臨中國的法律戰，這個部分外交部當然是非常熟悉，因為現在北韓跟俄羅斯的關係也越來越密切，接下來就是俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係，今天在打這個法律戰的時候，中國一定不會是孤軍奮戰，它會有其他的協助，我們目前是看到資訊上的合作、駭客上的合作，外交上的合作現在也慢慢要產生了，所以這個部分我覺得可能是今年我們特別需要注意的，因為一般來講我們對俄羅斯的警覺心並沒有那麼地強，這方面希望……因為接下來一定會發生很多事情，再請多加關注俄羅斯的行動。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來這是一個比較小的問題，紐約之前那個高官間諜活動，就是去擋我們，說我們的官員去那邊能夠見誰什麼等等之類的；另外，簡報左上角這邊的報導有提到60萬間諜大軍，有關間諜大軍這一塊，它已經說就是有60萬的間諜大軍，他們的情報網滲透全球。當然其實臺灣內部也非常多，但是我們現在要看的就是，當然僑委會可能會面臨到非常多，尤其他們本來就很喜歡接觸我們的僑界，但是外交部也會遇到，現在外交部跟僑委會之間在針對這些中國統戰方面的作為大概是如何？"],["林部長佳龍：中國對於國外的滲透，包括資訊操作，包括很多這些情報人員，事實上，隨著它力量的擴張，包括一帶一路的投資，或是它針對一些僑社的操弄，確實陸續有些案件發生，甚至有組織帶他們編制裡面的一些工作隊，就是涉及到對我們……相對來講，比如說在一些國家我們商社或僑社的滲透，我們是從情報中都有發現，它是很系統性的在做情報的滲透、蒐集跟操作。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們在外館的確可能會有一些人員，他必須要去協助，他也是要去看說這個滲透的狀況如何，那就回到剛剛這個國防部的案例，他現在非常針對我們也有在蒐集情報的人員，他也有針對我們外館的人，因此我們如果今天對這件事情的掌握度是不足的話，可能被反將一軍，以及有越來越多暗網上面他們就喜歡用這些外交部，還有比如說今天在外館裡面可能有人在幫忙蒐集情報，結果這個情報人員的e-mail外洩什麼等等之類的，用這樣的方式去造成對我們一些資訊上的攻擊，然後由臺灣的內部媒體去帶一些輿論，所以這整件事情都是一套的，希望外交部能夠多加注意。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員也分享一個資訊，他們在推動所謂安全絲路，因為一帶一路很多投資所在之地其實就在蒐集情報，而且他們透過他們自己的內網在傳輸，這個已經都影響到很多當地國家的包括不管是經濟，甚至民主政治的運作，也引起很多國家的關切，所以這個是所謂的安全絲路，也是值得我們重視。我們也透過我們外館，因為外館也是我們可以做情報蒐集的，自然就是會……因為在第一線攻防，我們也有這些寶貴的情報，也會跟我們理念相近國家大家來共同應處。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。今天因為很久沒有問外交部了，所以問題稍微比較雜一點。最後一個問題，我們看到有記者報導說，因為有一些媒體他可能是freelance，可能幫某一些外國的媒體寫稿，結果有些外國媒體說臺灣不能寫臺灣，要寫「那個島嶼」，外交部其實是有所回應，我們有看到發言人。我想知道一下，這件事情有沒有後續？因為這個對我們來講，其實是非常嚴重的一件事。"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們是捍衛新聞的自由，我們希望不要有紅色恐怖，以前講白色恐怖，造成這些記者媒體的自我檢查，如果有發生這些事情，當然如果我們瞭解，我們會看怎麼樣來協助，也來做好因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為就是怕說他現在可能是單一個案，之後他是有系統性的，如果說我們的國家能夠讓這些外媒的記者能夠有力量，我覺得是非常重要的一件事。不然的話，他今天寫個稿，他今天只是因為違反把臺灣這個字寫出來，就變成他以後就不能再做了，這個其實又是另外一種執行法律的戰爭。"],["林部長佳龍：確實，中共把一切跟人家的交往都武器化，經貿也要武器化、觀光也要武器化，你要去中國做研究，他也要控制這些學者的研究，然後限制這些媒體，就是它真的是好像幽靈一樣無所不在，所以這個已經不是臺灣的問題而已，這是全世界面對到中共這種數位極權的操控所導致的威脅，我們也跟理念相近國家一起要做好因應，這是為什麼臺灣現在要推動我們總合外交，包括價值外交、同盟外交跟經貿外交，外交已經不限於傳統所謂的邦交之間的關係，非傳統的戰爭模式，包括灰色地帶跟混合戰，都是我們要來做好因應，跟理念相近國家的合作。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，外交部也必須要迎戰。謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，部長請回。接下來我們請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}}