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00:00:55,927\n政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們\n\n3\n00:00:56,607 --> 00:01:20,247\n那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼\n\n4\n00:01:22,472 --> 00:01:49,883\n我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形\n\n5\n00:01:51,001 --> 00:02:06,404\n因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的\n\n6\n00:02:07,130 --> 00:02:07,730\n所以部長沒關係部長\n\n7\n00:02:24,463 --> 00:02:27,985\n因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出\n\n8\n00:02:52,964 --> 00:02:58,449\n我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產\n\n9\n00:03:11,442 --> 00:03:12,043\n我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?\n\n10\n00:03:34,588 --> 00:03:34,688\n馬文君議員\n\n11\n00:03:51,109 --> 00:04:07,940\n市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做\n\n12\n00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:33,842\n當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好\n\n13\n00:04:36,479 --> 00:04:36,559\n主席\n\n14\n00:04:53,200 --> 00:05:06,696\n要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽\n\n15\n00:05:08,661 --> 00:05:12,342\n所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分\n\n16\n00:05:33,507 --> 00:05:39,152\n我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動\n\n17\n00:05:50,908 --> 00:05:53,632\n市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊\n\n18\n00:06:07,009 --> 00:06:07,169\n李卓人議員\n\n19\n00:06:28,854 --> 00:06:30,996\n剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備\n\n20\n00:06:44,523 --> 00:06:47,806\n我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才\n\n21\n00:07:11,986 --> 00:07:14,412\n他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加\n\n22\n00:07:17,115 --> 00:07:42,944\n對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎\n\n23\n00:07:47,646 --> 00:08:15,783\n我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛\n\n24\n00:08:16,283 --> 00:08:44,246\n另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交\n\n25\n00:08:45,467 --> 00:08:53,042\n什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量\n\n26\n00:08:54,209 --> 00:09:00,193\n他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益\n\n27\n00:09:21,167 --> 00:09:23,828\n也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的\n\n28\n00:09:45,234 --> 00:09:59,317\n至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使\n\n29\n00:10:12,859 --> 00:10:13,659\n外交部長林佳龍\n\n30\n00:10:35,248 --> 00:10:35,288\n馬文君\n\n31\n00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:55,120\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n32\n00:11:18,098 --> 00:11:44,537\n其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的\n\n33\n00:11:46,358 --> 00:11:47,239\n目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?\n\n34\n00:12:13,351 --> 00:12:13,411\n馬文君\n\n35\n00:12:27,729 --> 00:12:40,315\n報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?\n\n36\n00:12:57,612 --> 00:13:24,371\n他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會\n\n37\n00:13:25,151 --> 00:13:26,292\n請把所有的相關的資料給我們\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t2990\t麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的\n28757\t55927\t政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們\n56607\t80247\t那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼\n82472\t109883\t我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形\n111001\t126404\t因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的\n127130\t127730\t所以部長沒關係部長\n144463\t147985\t因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出\n172964\t178449\t我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產\n191442\t192043\t我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?\n214588\t214688\t馬文君議員\n231109\t247940\t市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做\n249040\t273842\t當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好\n276479\t276559\t主席\n293200\t306696\t要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做 比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽\n308661\t312342\t所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分\n333507\t339152\t我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動\n350908\t353632\t市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊\n367009\t367169\t李卓人議員\n388854\t390996\t剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備\n404523\t407806\t我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才\n431986\t434412\t他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加\n437115\t462944\t對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎\n467646\t495783\t我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛\n496283\t524246\t另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交\n525467\t533042\t什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量\n534209\t540193\t他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益\n561167\t563828\t也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的\n585234\t599317\t至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使\n612859\t613659\t外交部長林佳龍\n635248\t635288\t馬文君\n655080\t655120\t﹚馬文君﹚\n678098\t704537\t其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的\n706358\t707239\t目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?\n733351\t733411\t馬文君\n747729\t760315\t報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?\n777612\t804371\t他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會\n805151\t806292\t請把所有的相關的資料給我們\n","txt":"麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的\n政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們\n那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼\n我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形\n因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的\n所以部長沒關係部長\n因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出\n我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產\n我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?\n馬文君議員\n市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做\n當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好\n主席\n要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做 比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽\n所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分\n我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動\n市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊\n李卓人議員\n剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備\n我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才\n他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加\n對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎\n我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛\n另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交\n什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量\n他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益\n也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的\n至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使\n外交部長林佳龍\n馬文君\n﹚馬文君﹚\n其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的\n目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?\n馬文君\n報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?\n他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會\n請把所有的相關的資料給我們\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:02.990\n麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的\n\n00:28.757 --> 00:55.927\n政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們\n\n00:56.607 --> 01:20.247\n那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼\n\n01:22.472 --> 01:49.883\n我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形\n\n01:51.001 --> 02:06.404\n因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的\n\n02:07.130 --> 02:07.730\n所以部長沒關係部長\n\n02:24.463 --> 02:27.985\n因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出\n\n02:52.964 --> 02:58.449\n我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產\n\n03:11.442 --> 03:12.043\n我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?\n\n03:34.588 --> 03:34.688\n馬文君議員\n\n03:51.109 --> 04:07.940\n市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做\n\n04:09.040 --> 04:33.842\n當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好\n\n04:36.479 --> 04:36.559\n主席\n\n04:53.200 --> 05:06.696\n要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽\n\n05:08.661 --> 05:12.342\n所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分\n\n05:33.507 --> 05:39.152\n我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動\n\n05:50.908 --> 05:53.632\n市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊\n\n06:07.009 --> 06:07.169\n李卓人議員\n\n06:28.854 --> 06:30.996\n剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備\n\n06:44.523 --> 06:47.806\n我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才\n\n07:11.986 --> 07:14.412\n他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加\n\n07:17.115 --> 07:42.944\n對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎\n\n07:47.646 --> 08:15.783\n我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛\n\n08:16.283 --> 08:44.246\n另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交\n\n08:45.467 --> 08:53.042\n什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量\n\n08:54.209 --> 09:00.193\n他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益\n\n09:21.167 --> 09:23.828\n也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的\n\n09:45.234 --> 09:59.317\n至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使\n\n10:12.859 --> 10:13.659\n外交部長林佳龍\n\n10:35.248 --> 10:35.288\n馬文君\n\n10:55.080 --> 10:55.120\n﹚馬文君﹚\n\n11:18.098 --> 11:44.537\n其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的\n\n11:46.358 --> 11:47.239\n目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?\n\n12:13.351 --> 12:13.411\n馬文君\n\n12:27.729 --> 12:40.315\n報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?\n\n12:57.612 --> 13:24.371\n他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會\n\n13:25.151 --> 13:26.292\n請把所有的相關的資料給我們\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.99,"text":"麻煩請部長請您部長部長早安委員早今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的這個部分我想請教一下外交部駐南非代表處在南非的"},{"start":28.757,"end":55.927,"text":"政府要求之下在10月30號以前就要簽管那對這個部分目前我們的具體做法是什麼因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家那剛剛也特別提到說其實像G7的一些國家因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛對不對對G7國家也有協助我們"},{"start":56.607,"end":80.247,"text":"那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼因為我們一直說理念相近的國家我們這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家所以如果像這樣的事情我們沒有辦法獲得解決最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":82.472,"end":109.883,"text":"我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力不然的話這個已經26年以來運作好好的我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是一些領悟那為什麼會從去年以來這個就是有跡可循可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形"},{"start":111.001,"end":126.404,"text":"因為現在的ANC就是南非的這個執政黨它是一個聯合政府也有包括這個DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨有些是對我們是友好的"},{"start":127.13,"end":127.73,"text":"所以部長沒關係部長"},{"start":144.463,"end":147.985,"text":"因為我們也透過G7的國家我相信包括美國跟我們也是非常非常在從有史以來關係最好的一個時候然後我們也透過各種的努力顯然包括他們對我們友好的不管是他們的國會或者相關的友好的一個對象也好其實顯然都使不上力到目前為止我們10月30號是不是要簽出"},{"start":172.964,"end":178.449,"text":"我們就是距離力爭捍衛我們的權益因為我們要知道當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候我們的外交部或我們國家我們的政府應該怎麼做外交部在維護南非駐館產"},{"start":191.442,"end":192.043,"text":"我們要怎麼做?通下去還是要反制?"},{"start":214.588,"end":214.688,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":231.109,"end":247.94,"text":"市長可不可以因為10月30號馬上就到了你不可能說到今天晚上明天12月30號今天晚上做決定嗎我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做要反制還是要吞下去我們要不要簽部長讓我們知道我們要怎麼做"},{"start":249.04,"end":273.842,"text":"當我們面對一個一個接下來我們不管是邦交國也好非邦交國也好這個已經跟我們20幾年交情雖然沒有邦交可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的在很多的包括我們僑界或者很多的在國內的一些相關人士重要的人士在南非都有相當的一個耕耘跟影響力我們要怎麼做部長告訴我們這個就好"},{"start":276.479,"end":276.559,"text":"主席"},{"start":293.2,"end":306.696,"text":"要求簽管還沒有其他的這個就是壓迫的行為我們也都還在做 比如還有什麼簽管他現在要求的是簽管我們就簽管來看如果他要求我們簽管你要不要簽"},{"start":308.661,"end":312.342,"text":"所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家他是一個民主的國家世界民主運動都要在南非舉行我們現在面對的是南非我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題我們外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴請告訴我們這個部分"},{"start":333.507,"end":339.152,"text":"我跟委員講我們都做好應變的對策但是現在的很多的聲音會出來比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨還有國會議員跟媒體的報導其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動"},{"start":350.908,"end":353.632,"text":"市長我們還有期待的意思啦是不是因為你從去年沒有從去年你這個最後我們就是據理力爭人家就對我們這樣啊你這都不敢說人家就叫你洗澡啊"},{"start":367.009,"end":367.169,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":388.854,"end":390.996,"text":"剛剛有委員提到說我們有些我們不要軍備然後我們在指責什麼都是指責國內的錯我們不是不要軍備我們不要無效的軍備"},{"start":404.523,"end":407.806,"text":"我們希望我們的國防強大我們需要我們的外交在國外在全世界各地是受到尊重的即使我們沒有邦交你也應該受到尊重我們以2021年跟台灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例當時駐台代表曾經是台灣培育出來的高階人才我們花了很多的國家資源我們幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才"},{"start":431.986,"end":434.412,"text":"他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧地加"},{"start":437.115,"end":462.944,"text":"對我們蔡總統情同姐妹台灣更是你家拉瓜的摯友可是在斷交的時候完全翻臉不認人政府他的政府不但下令沒收台灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外管資產而且直接就轉移到大陸的手上去了這個部分我們到現在那時候說外交部要訴訟我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣有提訴訟嗎"},{"start":467.646,"end":495.783,"text":"我們請同仁再了解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展不過就南非這個例子因為在發展中我們現在就是說據理力爭捍衛我們的權益那我們也尋求各方的支持那我相信這個也有一定的壓力所以因為他現在是聯合政府他必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序因為今年才大選嘛"},{"start":496.283,"end":524.246,"text":"另外就是說他們國內外的力量他們發現說其實台灣是一個所謂良善的力量啊那為什麼要這樣子把26年運作的好好的雙邊的關係然後片面的毀約如果這個有效的話之前就有效現在南非政府就不會這麼做每一個國家我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號你說有價值外交經貿外交同盟外交或者是總和外交不管你是什麼叉叉外交"},{"start":525.467,"end":533.042,"text":"什麼樣的口號其實到最後每一個國家都是以他們自己自身國家的利益為最高的考量"},{"start":534.209,"end":540.193,"text":"他們國家很多人不認為這是他們最高的國家利益所以我們就可是人家就是叫你簽了嘛如果你到現在還在執著這個部分可見我們要求G7要求應變你也只能簽如果人家要求的話你也只能簽或者也要求他簽這樣是我們有利的外交的一個方向嗎我們過去沒有面臨這麼多我們就是害怕我們的權益"},{"start":561.167,"end":563.828,"text":"也許部長聽我講完因為你們花的是我們國家人民的預算所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個遲早的時候我們看到的是我們的邦交國不斷的失去我們面對尼加拉瓜像這樣的邦交國甚至我們的財產都保不住現在我們20幾年這樣子友好的"},{"start":585.234,"end":599.317,"text":"至少有往來關係還不錯的國家也用這樣的方式對待我們可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷的發生我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬高壓措施的時候你也應該要知道你的外交應該要怎麼做至少應該在實質上就像其他國家即使"},{"start":612.859,"end":613.659,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":635.248,"end":635.288,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":655.08,"end":655.12,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":678.098,"end":704.537,"text":"其他的我們的外交在陷入這更大的困境當中這是我們今天要特別提出來的那我現在也要特別再請教一下部長就是有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係瞭解備忘錄的這個部分當時我們說6月份捷克因為我們是把所有的錢一千萬美金都交給捷克那我們要求他三分之一要採購台灣的"},{"start":706.358,"end":707.239,"text":"目前已經送過去了嗎?進度怎麼樣?"},{"start":733.351,"end":733.411,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":747.729,"end":760.315,"text":"報告委員,我們對於台灣採購的品項清單其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過,我們都有提供現在進度怎麼樣,送過去了嗎?那個部分是他們採購他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎?你必須要掌握,已經有了嘛,多少數量?我可不可以事後我會整資料提供你會後提供給我們有多少數量,他從台灣採購嗎?"},{"start":777.612,"end":804.371,"text":"他是在歐洲採購但是他有直接跟台灣的供應商聯繫所以我們還是幫忙台灣的在歐洲的供應商就是了對因為當時你們說的說是要跟台灣採購所以可是顯然現在講的不是採購方式如同之前跟委員在前幾次有報告過那包括跟哪一個歐洲的廠商採購的麻煩也把資料給我們委員會"},{"start":805.151,"end":806.292,"text":"請把所有的相關的資料給我們"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["馬委員文君：部長早安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["馬委員文君：今天有非常多的委員都在關切南非的部分，我想請教一下，外交部駐南非代表處在南非的政府要求之下，10月30號以前就要遷館，對這個部分，目前我們的具體作法是什麼？因為這個已經有點羞辱到我們的國家。剛剛也特別提到說，其實像G7的一些國家，因為我們去年就知道這個訊息嘛！對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["馬委員文君：G7國家也有協助我們，那沒有達到目的的原因是什麼？因為我們一直說理念相近的國家，這幾年我們的外交拓展得非常好，尤其其實像很多國家都是在世界上數一數二的強權國家，所以如果像這樣的事情，我們沒有辦法獲得解決，最大的問題是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我想一定是南非政府面對到很大的壓力，不然的話，這個已經26年以來運作好好的嘛！我們雖然沒有正式邦交國家，但有一些不管商貿、文化或者是領務，那為什麼會從去年以來，這個就是有跡可循。可是我們本來是說今年的南非大選完也許會有新的情形，因為現在的ANC，就是南非的執政黨，它是一個聯合政府，也有包括DA或IFP這些加入聯合政府的政黨，有些對我們是友好的，它也沒有經過跟它的聯合政府諮商，就是這些政黨之間的諮商，又違約、片面撕毀協議，所以這個是很不正常嘛！這過程當中，我們大概盡了很多的努力……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，因為我們也透過G7的國家，我相信包括美國跟我們也是從有史以來關係最好的一個時候，然後我們也透過各種的努力，顯然包括他們對我們友好的，不管是他們國會或者相關友好的對象也好，其實顯然都使不上力。到目前為止，我們10月30號是不是要遷出？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是據理力爭，捍衛我們的權益。"],["馬委員文君：怎麼樣據理力爭？因為我們要知道，當我們的主權或國家受到屈辱的時候，我們外交部或政府應該怎麼做？外交部在維護南非駐館的產權還有國家的尊嚴之下，我們比較想要知道，我們是決定要撤館還是要屈從南非政府要求遷館，我們外交部目前怎麼做？因為你說到11月，可是現在它要你10月30號就要做出決定，那我們要怎麼做，吞下去還是要反制？"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經有成立應變小組，也做好各種應變的對策，隨著事件的發展，我們會妥善的因應，基本上外交是要對等互惠……"],["馬委員文君：它已經對我們不對等了，所以我們應該要怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：如果有企圖傷害我們，我們也一樣都有對等的立場來做應處。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為10月30號馬上就到了，不可能明天就10月30號了，你到今天晚上才做決定嘛！我們現在初步的決定要怎麼做，要反制還是要吞下去，我們要不要遷？部長，讓我們知道我們要怎麼做，當我們面對一個一個接下來……","不管是邦交國也好，非邦交國也好，這個已經跟我們二十幾年的交情，雖然沒有邦交，可是我們的交情其實都算是不錯的，在很多的包括我們僑界或者在國內的一些相關人士、重要的人士，在南非都有相當的耕耘跟影響力，我們要怎麼做？部長告訴我們這個就好。"],["林部長佳龍：因為我們都有應變的方案，我剛剛講對等是基本的原則，所以它如果要叫我們遷，我們當然也會有相應的作為……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們叫他們遷？"],["林部長佳龍：那他們其他不友善的行為……因為到底他們除了要求遷館，還有沒有其他的壓迫行為，我們也都還在做因應。"],["馬委員文君：還有什麼？它現在要求的是遷館，我們就遷館來看，如果他要求我們遷館，我們要不要遷？"],["林部長佳龍：它於法無據啊！"],["馬委員文君：以前尼加拉瓜，我們的財產被人家侵占……"],["林部長佳龍：所以如果說南非自詡為一個不結盟的國家，它是一個民主的國家……"],["馬委員文君：對，會怎麼做嘛！沒關係，部長……"],["林部長佳龍：世界民主運動都要在南非舉行……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，不要講世界民主，我們現在面對的是南非，我們現在面對的是10月30號就要解決的問題，外交部還有我們的政府要怎麼樣捍衛我們自己的尊嚴？請告訴我關於這個部分。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，我們都做好應變的對策，但是現在很多的聲音會出來，比如說他們執政聯盟裡面的政黨，還有國會議員跟媒體的報導，其實對於南非少數政治人物的行動……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還有期待的意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不以為然，甚至表示引以為恥……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們還有期待的意思啦，是不是？因為你從去年已經知道……"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是奮戰到……據理力爭。"],["馬委員文君：人家就這樣對我們了，你都不敢說，人家就叫你移走了，你今天不是對大陸的時候也很大聲，我們不是也應該要維持尊嚴嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我已經跟委員講了我們對等的原則，它要我們遷，我們當然也會要它遷，這是基本的。我是覺得我們現在這個時間讓各種聲音都出來，其實南非很多人對於他們外交部的這種行為是不以為然，甚至媒體還引以為恥。"],["馬委員文君：部長，不以為然還是做了。剛剛有委員提到，我們不要軍備然後什麼都是指責國內的，錯！我們不是不要軍備，是不要無效的軍備，我們希望國防強大，我們需要我們的外交在國外、在全世界各地受到尊重，即使我們沒有邦交也應該受到尊重。我們以2021年跟臺灣斷交的尼加拉瓜為例，當時駐臺代表曾經是臺灣培育出來的高階人才，我們花了很多的國家資源幫很多的邦交國培育非常多的人才，他在任的時候宣稱尼加拉瓜總統奧蒂嘉對我們蔡總統情同姐妹，臺灣更是尼加拉瓜的摯友，可是在斷交的時候，完全翻臉不認人。他的政府不但下令沒收臺灣政府已經捐贈給天主教會的外館資產，而且直接就轉移到大陸手上去了，那時候外交部說要訴訟，我們現在訴訟的結果怎麼樣？有提訴訟嗎？有提嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們請同仁再瞭解一下當時的回應跟後來的發展。不過，就南非這個例子因為在發展中，我們現在就是據理力爭捍衛我們的權益，也尋求各方的支持，我相信這個也有一定的壓力，因為它現在是聯合政府，必須要聯合政府的政黨經過內閣會議，所以已經有他們國會議員在質疑並沒有經過這個程序，因為今年才大選嘛！另外就是他們國內外的力量，他們發現其實臺灣是一個所謂良善的力量，26年來運作得好的，為什麼要這樣子把雙邊的關係片面的毀約……"],["馬委員文君：部長，如果這個有效的話之前就有效，現在南非政府就不會這麼做。每一個國家……我們現在要特別提醒的是我們即使有再多的口號，你說價值外交、經貿外交、同盟外交，或者是總合外交，不管是「XX」外交、什麼樣的口號，到最後每一個國家其實都是以自身國家的利益為最高的考量。之前菲律賓……"],["林部長佳龍：他們國家很多人也不認為這是他們最高的國家利益，所以我們還是……"],["馬委員文君：可是人家就是叫你遷了嘛！如果你到現在還在執著這個部分，可見我們要求G7……"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有做好應變的方案。"],["馬委員文君：應變？如果人家要求的話，你也只能遷，或者也要求它遷，這樣是我們有利外交的一個方向嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他們這樣做是損人不利己嘛！"],["馬委員文君：我們過去沒有面臨這麼多……損人不利己？對它來說也許……"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是捍衛權益，然後還是據理力爭。"],["馬委員文君：部長，聽我講完。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：因為你們花的是國家人民的預算，所以當你有很多很多美麗的一個辭藻的時候，我們看到的是邦交國不斷地失去，我們面對尼加拉瓜這樣的邦交國，甚至我們的財產都保不住。現在面對與我們二十幾年友好的，至少有往來的，關係還不錯的國家，也用這樣的方式對待我們，可是沒有其他具體有效的國家或方法可以阻止這樣的事情不斷不斷地發生。我們要求的是當我們在對內採取這麼強硬、高壓措施的時候，你也應該要知道外交應該要怎麼做，至少應該在實質上……就像其他國家，即使在不進步的國家，都知道要維持自己國家的利益，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，外交有攻防啦！比如說我們最近在印度孟買就新設處啊！很多的中東歐國家，其實它跟我們的關係比一般邦交國家還好，外交的豁免很多啊！"],["馬委員文君：怎麼好，你有提供資源嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這些就是我們的國力的呈現啊！因為我們臺灣民主，而且我們有這麼好的經濟……"],["馬委員文君：部長，中東歐國家我們提供了多少資源？好，現在提到這些國家，我們剛剛說因為不希望我們面臨到這樣的困境，這對我們來說不是只有外交部會覺得羞辱，我們所有的國人都一樣，所以我們不是在這裡要特別指責，而是你的作法應該要怎麼樣維護國家最大的利益，讓我們可以走出去，而且可以抬頭挺胸。從過去到現在，我們一直、一直、一直在國際上面的地位，甚至被矮化，除非拿著很多的資源，拿著很多的錢，到某些國家或者對某些對象的時候，可以高高在上……其他的，我們的外交陷入更大的困境當中，這是我們今天要特別提出來的。","我現在也要特別再請教一下部長，「有關建立促進烏克蘭重建初級醫療照護能量夥伴關係」備忘錄的這個部分，當時我們說6月份捷克……因為我們是把所有的錢──1,000萬美金都交給捷克，我們要求它三分之一要採購臺灣這些醫療相關物資，目前已經送過去了嗎？進度怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：都有如期在進行，我請歐洲司長說明一下這個案子，我有特別關心，目前在進行……"],["馬委員文君：因為我們所有的錢希望花在刀口上，尤其這個是給烏克蘭使用的，因為我們要幫助的是烏克蘭所有需要幫助的部分，尤其在醫療需求上面，所以我們很關切想知道後面的進度怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：對，像包括燒燙傷中心、他們兒童的醫療……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我現在想要知道的是跟臺灣採購的部分，現在進度怎麼樣？"],["黃司長鈞耀：報告委員，我們對於臺灣採購的品項清單，其實之前有幾位委員有跟我們詢問過，我們都有提供，也都依據……"],["馬委員文君：現在進度怎麼樣，送過去了嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：那個部分是他們採購，採購的……"],["馬委員文君：他們採購已經送給烏克蘭了嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：對。"],["馬委員文君：你必須要掌握，已經有了嘛！多少數量？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我可不可以事後彙整資料提供？"],["馬委員文君：會後提供給我們有多少數量，它從臺灣採購嗎？"],["黃司長鈞耀：它是在歐洲採購，但是有直接跟臺灣的供應商聯繫。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們還是幫忙臺灣在歐洲的供應商就是了？"],["黃司長鈞耀：對。"],["馬委員文君：因為當時你們是說要跟臺灣採購，可是顯然現在講的是不太一樣？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，採購方式如同前幾次在委員質詢有報告過……"],["馬委員文君：包括跟哪一個歐洲廠商採購的，麻煩你把資料給我們委員會，好不好？"],["黃司長鈞耀：我們儘量……"],["馬委員文君：不是儘量……"],["黃司長鈞耀：會後儘快……"],["馬委員文君：請把所有相關的資料給我們，好不好？"],["黃司長鈞耀：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}}