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00:02:57,777\n因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交那我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致\n\n9\n00:02:59,472 --> 00:03:23,144\n應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格\n\n10\n00:03:24,364 --> 00:03:49,426\n這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好\n\n11\n00:03:50,629 --> 00:03:54,157\n那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?\n\n12\n00:03:59,302 --> 00:03:59,843\n您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現\n\n13\n00:04:28,922 --> 00:04:29,362\n下一張再下一張\n\n14\n00:04:39,922 --> 00:05:01,311\n這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值\n\n15\n00:05:02,219 --> 00:05:28,886\n他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出各位說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路\n\n16\n00:05:29,586 --> 00:05:49,566\n目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出其實他是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦陷阱\n\n17\n00:05:51,267 --> 00:06:10,222\n另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難\n\n18\n00:06:12,303 --> 00:06:22,289\n這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出\n\n19\n00:06:23,864 --> 00:06:24,465\n一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營\n\n20\n00:06:45,575 --> 00:07:08,424\n一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是\n\n21\n00:07:09,144 --> 00:07:30,973\n我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子\n\n22\n00:07:32,393 --> 00:07:32,493\n林佳龍議員\n\n23\n00:07:53,655 --> 00:07:54,756\n當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些\n\n24\n00:08:13,899 --> 00:08:14,019\n同意嗎?\n\n25\n00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:31,921\n民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚\n\n26\n00:08:48,988 --> 00:09:11,526\n不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做\n\n27\n00:09:16,810 --> 00:09:17,611\n主席主席主席\n\n28\n00:09:43,027 --> 00:10:06,012\n那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇\n\n29\n00:10:06,752 --> 00:10:33,133\n部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上\n\n30\n00:10:33,894 --> 00:10:52,452\n我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的\n\n31\n00:10:54,994 --> 00:10:55,614\n南非對住管者的不合理要求\n\n32\n00:11:11,124 --> 00:11:37,446\n部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制\n\n33\n00:11:38,567 --> 00:11:50,559\n因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個\n\n34\n00:12:01,263 --> 00:12:03,924\n最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的\n\n35\n00:12:28,712 --> 00:12:29,052\n委員會主席\n\n36\n00:12:57,146 --> 00:13:20,427\n跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?\n\n37\n00:13:21,479 --> 00:13:22,559\n對等的概念不是只是一個口號\n\n38\n00:13:46,384 --> 00:14:12,816\n不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇\n\n39\n00:14:13,996 --> 00:14:38,676\n他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情\n\n40\n00:14:39,477 --> 00:14:39,917\n外交部長林佳龍\n\n41\n00:14:58,422 --> 00:15:13,305\n那大家覺得欸又一個欸又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情\n\n42\n00:15:14,434 --> 00:15:37,795\n我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好\n\n43\n00:15:38,592 --> 00:15:38,752\n中東歐國家\n\n44\n00:16:02,509 --> 00:16:03,949\n中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權\n\n45\n00:16:29,838 --> 00:16:31,079\n臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t2610\t林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢。．並備質詢。\n19096\t19356\t李卓人議員\n35663\t56689\t他支持民主理念在某些部分對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣會當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼\n59404\t77571\t我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心\n78491\t102294\t我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗著中國的威權擴張的部分我說這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論這一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情\n104600\t131452\t在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長這個人事的執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們台灣的整體的外交\n132432\t133373\t外交部長林佳龍\n154832\t177777\t因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交那我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致\n179472\t203144\t應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格\n204364\t229426\t這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好\n230629\t234157\t那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?\n239302\t239843\t您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現\n268922\t269362\t下一張再下一張\n279922\t301311\t這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值\n302219\t328886\t他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出各位說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路\n329586\t349566\t目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出其實他是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦 陷阱\n351267\t370222\t另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難\n372303\t382289\t這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出\n383864\t384465\t一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營\n405575\t428424\t一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是\n429144\t450973\t我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子\n452393\t452493\t林佳龍議員\n473655\t474756\t當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些\n493899\t494019\t同意嗎?\n509980\t511921\t民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚\n528988\t551526\t不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚 執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做\n556810\t557611\t主席主席主席\n583027\t606012\t那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇\n606752\t633133\t部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上\n633894\t652452\t我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的\n654994\t655614\t南非對住管者的不合理要求\n671124\t697446\t部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制\n698567\t710559\t因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個\n721263\t723924\t最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的\n748712\t749052\t委員會主席\n777146\t800427\t跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?\n801479\t802559\t對等的概念不是只是一個口號\n826384\t852816\t不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇\n853996\t878676\t他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情\n879477\t879917\t外交部長林佳龍\n898422\t913305\t那大家覺得 欸 又一個 欸 又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情\n914434\t937795\t我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好\n938592\t938752\t中東歐國家\n962509\t963949\t中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權\n989838\t991079\t臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界\n","txt":"林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢。．並備質詢。\n李卓人議員\n他支持民主理念在某些部分對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣會當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼\n我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心\n我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗著中國的威權擴張的部分我說這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論這一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情\n在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長這個人事的執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們台灣的整體的外交\n外交部長林佳龍\n因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交那我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致\n應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格\n這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好\n那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?\n您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現\n下一張再下一張\n這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值\n他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出各位說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路\n目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出其實他是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦 陷阱\n另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難\n這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出\n一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營\n一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是\n我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子\n林佳龍議員\n當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些\n同意嗎?\n民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚\n不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚 執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做\n主席主席主席\n那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇\n部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上\n我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的\n南非對住管者的不合理要求\n部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制\n因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個\n最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的\n委員會主席\n跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?\n對等的概念不是只是一個口號\n不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇\n他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情\n外交部長林佳龍\n那大家覺得 欸 又一個 欸 又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情\n我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好\n中東歐國家\n中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權\n臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:02.610\n林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢。．並備質詢。\n\n00:19.096 --> 00:19.356\n李卓人議員\n\n00:35.663 --> 00:56.689\n他支持民主理念在某些部分對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣會當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼\n\n00:59.404 --> 01:17.571\n我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心\n\n01:18.491 --> 01:42.294\n我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗著中國的威權擴張的部分我說這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論這一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情\n\n01:44.600 --> 02:11.452\n在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長這個人事的執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們台灣的整體的外交\n\n02:12.432 --> 02:13.373\n外交部長林佳龍\n\n02:34.832 --> 02:57.777\n因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交那我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致\n\n02:59.472 --> 03:23.144\n應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格\n\n03:24.364 --> 03:49.426\n這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好\n\n03:50.629 --> 03:54.157\n那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?\n\n03:59.302 --> 03:59.843\n您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現\n\n04:28.922 --> 04:29.362\n下一張再下一張\n\n04:39.922 --> 05:01.311\n這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值\n\n05:02.219 --> 05:28.886\n他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出各位說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路\n\n05:29.586 --> 05:49.566\n目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出其實他是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦陷阱\n\n05:51.267 --> 06:10.222\n另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難\n\n06:12.303 --> 06:22.289\n這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出\n\n06:23.864 --> 06:24.465\n一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營\n\n06:45.575 --> 07:08.424\n一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是\n\n07:09.144 --> 07:30.973\n我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子\n\n07:32.393 --> 07:32.493\n林佳龍議員\n\n07:53.655 --> 07:54.756\n當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些\n\n08:13.899 --> 08:14.019\n同意嗎?\n\n08:29.980 --> 08:31.921\n民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚\n\n08:48.988 --> 09:11.526\n不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做\n\n09:16.810 --> 09:17.611\n主席主席主席\n\n09:43.027 --> 10:06.012\n那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇\n\n10:06.752 --> 10:33.133\n部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上\n\n10:33.894 --> 10:52.452\n我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的\n\n10:54.994 --> 10:55.614\n南非對住管者的不合理要求\n\n11:11.124 --> 11:37.446\n部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制\n\n11:38.567 --> 11:50.559\n因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個\n\n12:01.263 --> 12:03.924\n最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的\n\n12:28.712 --> 12:29.052\n委員會主席\n\n12:57.146 --> 13:20.427\n跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?\n\n13:21.479 --> 13:22.559\n對等的概念不是只是一個口號\n\n13:46.384 --> 14:12.816\n不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇\n\n14:13.996 --> 14:38.676\n他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情\n\n14:39.477 --> 14:39.917\n外交部長林佳龍\n\n14:58.422 --> 15:13.305\n那大家覺得欸又一個欸又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情\n\n15:14.434 --> 15:37.795\n我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好\n\n15:38.592 --> 15:38.752\n中東歐國家\n\n16:02.509 --> 16:03.949\n中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權\n\n16:29.838 --> 16:31.079\n臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":2.61,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢。．並備質詢。"},{"start":19.096,"end":19.356,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":35.663,"end":56.689,"text":"他支持民主理念在某些部分對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方他會提出批判這是公民社會我們看到的常態很多這樣的團體他其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分他們其實最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題所以我還是想請你再說一次就是說台灣會當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼"},{"start":59.404,"end":77.571,"text":"我知道因為我當時在國安會因為高英茂委員那時候在有同事所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解我在美國的時候也有參與美國的這個民主基金會所以對這個20年來的發展可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心"},{"start":78.491,"end":102.294,"text":"我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力這部分是很關鍵尤其是在要對抗著中國的威權擴張的部分我說這一兩個月的時間其實也有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論這一些相關的議題那大家確實都還很關注幾件事情"},{"start":104.6,"end":131.452,"text":"在9月25號的時候民主基金會我們通過了包括廖雅琦執行長這個人事的執行長的人事的同意案那廖老師當然在過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定這部分在專業上面這是廖老師的專業但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟包括執行長這邊來回答民主基金會因為他當在我們台灣的整體的外交"},{"start":132.432,"end":133.373,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":154.832,"end":177.777,"text":"因為總統是國家元首那代表國家行使外交權那我想這個是民主基金會當然會依據總統他領導國政的大方針來推動惡鬼外交那我們請執行長他很有經驗的你覺得這個民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致"},{"start":179.472,"end":203.144,"text":"應該是完全可以配合的而且我們是在受外交部這邊整個做我們的最重要的督導單位所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的一些活動我們其實都是從過去以來到現在都是這樣所以在路線上面或在運作的方針上不該有漢格嘛對不對這應該是很明確的對這是外交嘛在外交上面不該有漢格"},{"start":204.364,"end":229.426,"text":"這是大家現在還是會關注的議題雖然我們其實我覺得當時大家找到了一個朝野之間共同的人選方案也是廖老師作為這個方案大家是非常關注這個事情所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題當然大家就問說如果外交部跟民主基金會理念有漢格的話在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害或者是外交資源運作的不好"},{"start":230.629,"end":234.157,"text":"那大家覺得社會會是要找總統負責還是找我們現在國會議長、韓國議長、院長來負責?你覺得?"},{"start":239.302,"end":239.843,"text":"您說的是一個假設性問題從過去到現在都還沒有出現"},{"start":268.922,"end":269.362,"text":"下一張再下一張"},{"start":279.922,"end":301.311,"text":"這個是大概民主基金會在2015當時馬政府時期有一個補助的計畫那這個補助計畫他補助了這個中國大陸跟亞投行一帶一路倡議這個策略與變遷研討會那我想請問一下部長你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值"},{"start":302.219,"end":328.886,"text":"他是民主輸出現在中國的一帶一路大國際上尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出各位說如果是探討其實都應該探討有時候要知己知彼但是如果他的內容或是涉及到立場我們也是多元呈現但是當然政府的政策比如說你這個一帶一路造成的問題我們不能只是歌功頌德他的負面的效應尤其現在的數位思路你覺得現在中國的一帶一路"},{"start":329.586,"end":349.566,"text":"目前我們台灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話算是民主輸出還威權輸出其實他是我們講的所謂透過一帶一路其實是影響了很多國家其實朝向不是一個擅自的發展就是說債務啦 陷阱"},{"start":351.267,"end":370.222,"text":"另外透過這個方式去影響他的國內的政治這個是很普遍所以為什麼有很多的國際媒體包括國際組織都出了報告甚至都點出像中國的一帶路這樣的策略其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權的甚至留下很多人權的災難"},{"start":372.303,"end":382.289,"text":"這都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告這不是我說的這是很多國際組織上面說的事情所以一樣執行長你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出"},{"start":383.864,"end":384.465,"text":"一帶一路是威權輸出民主陣營"},{"start":405.575,"end":428.424,"text":"一帶一路是民主輸出還是威權輸出我就問這個問題就你的理解你有專業啊可能就民主陣營來講會覺得所謂一帶一路是比較像是一個威權上的一個部件啦就民主陣營的思維來講是那我們的民主基金會一個很重要的部分其實就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際的民主陣營站在一起互相合作嘛對不對是"},{"start":429.144,"end":450.973,"text":"我就角度看起來齁包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論所以如果他這裡面的內容當然是欸好像在有點在鼓吹或者是說欸有點在往兩岸統合或者是一帶一路的方向上面去的話我自己覺得以現在的角度當時當時我不評論但現在角度我認為這是不太適合的把資源投入在像這樣子"},{"start":452.393,"end":452.493,"text":"林佳龍議員"},{"start":473.655,"end":474.756,"text":"當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候,國際上確實有一些"},{"start":493.899,"end":494.019,"text":"同意嗎?"},{"start":509.98,"end":511.921,"text":"民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚"},{"start":528.988,"end":551.526,"text":"不能在價值的方針上面有所質疑包括模糊但我不是說不能討論當然可以討論但價值的方針應該清楚 執行長同意嗎價值方針很清楚那鼓勵言論自由國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值我們當然贊成言論自由我剛才說一次我們當然贊成言論自由但我要再強調一下像這種問題曾經困擾過國際也許有人說你這個是不是中國要來做"},{"start":556.81,"end":557.611,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":583.027,"end":606.012,"text":"那很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家他們的政治精英就被俘虜了那這個其實帶來的就是一個違反善治所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的這個全球的基本建設的投資的倡議甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家也有另外一個選擇"},{"start":606.752,"end":633.133,"text":"部長我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來這不是只是我自己個人有問我說過這段時間有很多我們來自公民社會的組織包括民主基金會的有幾位董事他們來找我討論大家認為有一些很重要的關鍵的問題還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚但這不是說我們要去打壓這個多元的言論自由的部分當然討論可以討論可是我們在價值方向上"},{"start":633.894,"end":652.452,"text":"我還是再說一次這件事情沒有猶疑的空間跟清楚尤其是在這麼多年以後現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國怎麼看待他的威權輸出各種的做法我想大家現在是越來越清楚這部分部長一定很清楚跟當時在這個習近平剛接任這個中國的"},{"start":654.994,"end":655.614,"text":"南非對住管者的不合理要求"},{"start":671.124,"end":697.446,"text":"部長我知道現在看到你們有在談到說在研擬相關的反制那當然我想問部長部長現在媒體上面會有些人問說到底為什麼要反制反制有用嗎我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制到底原因是什麼這樣再說明清楚一下基於我們國家的這個主權跟尊嚴當然外交行為就是對等互惠他不對等我們當然要相應的有反制"},{"start":698.567,"end":710.559,"text":"因為互惠其實對他惠是比較大啦因為我們的貿易額以這個幾年來講大概是15億到20億美金我們是出口是逆差所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講就是我們應該說是對他的這個"},{"start":721.263,"end":723.924,"text":"最基本的原則其實我們是基於對等嘛對不對基本上是在對等的"},{"start":748.712,"end":749.052,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":777.146,"end":800.427,"text":"跟我們如果良性循環,我們就增加互惠的交往,如果沒有的話,我們可以找跟我們理念相近,利益更密切的國家來交往。部長我給你一個建議,我覺得我們必須要,包括不管是對媒體或對社會,包括各不同的政黨,我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼?"},{"start":801.479,"end":802.559,"text":"對等的概念不是只是一個口號"},{"start":826.384,"end":852.816,"text":"不是一個抽象的概念我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚才會知道說那我們像在這樣子的一個世界裡面這當然我們不樂意看到也對我們國家利益是個損害可是我們還是必須基於對等原則必須做出規劃相關的反制這部分我覺得它的理由它的正當性是什麼我覺得要跟大家說明清楚不是只是說我做了什麼更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做但是我最後還是想提醒部長我們都知道現在中國剛舉辦這個中非合作論壇"},{"start":853.996,"end":878.676,"text":"他其實丟了將近3600億的人民幣這個經費是非常非常大所以我們自己心裡也有底很可能類似南非的狀況他現在當然這是一個案例但確實也有可能在其他國家還會發生我們在心裡面心裡知道還有可能發生但這個發生的原因並不是因為台灣做錯了什麼事情"},{"start":879.477,"end":879.917,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":898.422,"end":913.305,"text":"那大家覺得 欸 又一個 欸 又一個我覺得我們要把這個話講到前面那當然是我們自己國際處境上面的困難可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通這不是我們做錯了什麼我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情"},{"start":914.434,"end":937.795,"text":"我們堅守自己的主權我們撐開自己的國際空間但對不起真的遇到了一個非常非常霸道的惡靈居在那個地方持續的我們要把這事情給講清楚不是我們做錯什麼不然我覺得現在可能會有一些社會媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好"},{"start":938.592,"end":938.752,"text":"中東歐國家"},{"start":962.509,"end":963.949,"text":"中共現在打壓我們的原因是因為我們堅持自己的主權"},{"start":989.838,"end":991.079,"text":"臺灣是世界的臺灣,我們也要走向世界"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時7分）請林部長。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請林部長。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你應該知道我一直以來都非常關注民主基金會的議題。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：這段時間其實有很多過去我們在民間的民主夥伴，尤其是公民團體，其實都是在公民社會裡面有很大的聲譽，尤其是一方面它支持民主理念，在某些部分，對於政府的施政如果有不滿的地方，它也會提出批判，這是公民社會我們看到的常態，很多這樣的團體它其實有民主理念或者有國際參與的部分，他們最近還是都很關心關於民主基金會的問題。部長，我還是想請你再說一次，就是臺灣當時要成立這個國家級的民主基金會的原因是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我知道，因為我當時在國安會，高英茂委員那時候在……是同事嘛，所以整個籌組的過程我是非常的了解。我在美國的時候也有參與美國的民主基金會，所以對這二十年來的發展，可以說一路走來都有在參與跟關心。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們當然是希望這個民主基金會能夠擴大臺灣在民主跟人權價值上面，尤其在亞洲跟國際上面的影響力，這部分是很關鍵，尤其是在要對抗中國的威權擴張的部分。這一、兩個月其實有幾位民主基金會的董事來找我討論一些相關的議題，大家確實都還很關注幾件事情。在9月25號的時候，民主基金會通過了包括廖達琪執行長、執行長的人事同意案，廖老師當然過去在學術上面其實大家都有一定的肯定，這部分在專業上面，這是廖老師的專業，但是有幾個問題還是想要請部長跟執行長這邊來回答，關於民主基金會，因為在我們臺灣的整體外交運作上面，它等於像是二軌的，它算是個民間機構，但是有點是我們二軌外交重要的資產，所以大家都很關心執行長對於我們外交路線的態度跟總統是不是一致，針對這部分，部長，你的態度是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：因為總統是國家元首，代表國家行使外交權，我想民主基金會當然會依據總統領導國政的大方針來推動二軌外交。"],["洪委員申翰：我們請執行長。"],["林部長佳龍：執行長很有經驗的。"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，你覺得民主基金會的運作跟總統外交路線是不是應該一致？"],["廖執行長達琪：應該是完全可以配合的，而且我們是受外交部整個最重要督導的單位，所以我們也完全配合部長這邊所有的要求跟所有的活動，我們從過去以來到現在都是這樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：所以在路線上面或在運作方針上不該有扞格嘛對不對？這應該是很明確的。"],["廖執行長達琪：對。這是外交嘛！外交是整體的。"],["洪委員申翰：在外交上面不該有扞格。這是大家現在還是會關注的議題，我覺得當時大家找到一個朝野之間共同的人選方案，就是廖老師作為這個方案……"],["廖執行長達琪：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員申翰：大家都非常關注這個事情，所以這裡面其實有幾個很關鍵的問題，大家就問，如果外交部跟民主基金會裡面有扞格的話，在我們的外交工作上面出現了利益上面的損害，或者外交資源運作得不好，大家覺得社會會要找總統負責，還是找現在國會議長──韓國瑜院長負責？執行長，你覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：其實您說的是一個假設性問題，從過去到現在都還沒有出現。"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得，如果扞格，你覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：因為這是假設性問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是假設性問題。"],["廖執行長達琪：基本上，我們都是配合外交部，所以不容易出現所謂扞格的狀態。同時也跟您補充一下，院長──就是我們的董事長，也非常支持我們整體跟國家配合的外交，他也覺得臺灣民主基金會最重要的定位就是在深化跟亞洲自由民主的NGO做連結，走出世界，這一點完全一致，沒有扞格。"],["洪委員申翰：部長跟執行長，我想請教幾個事情。這個是民主基金會在2015年當時馬政府時期有一個補助計畫，這個補助計畫補助了「中國大陸跟『亞投行』與『一帶一路』倡議：策略與變遷研討會」，我想請問一下部長，你覺得現在國際上面討論中國的一帶一路符不符合民主價值？對於現在中國的一帶一路，國際上，尤其是民主國家認為這是民主輸出還是威權輸出？部長。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，如果是探討，其實都應該探討，有時候要知己知彼嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長佳龍：但是如果它的內容或是涉及到立場，我們也是多元呈現，但是當然政府的政策，比如這個一帶一路造成的問題，我們不能只是歌功頌德，它的負面效應，尤其現在的數位思路……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得現在中國的一帶一路，就目前我們臺灣的外交方針跟價值來說的話，算是民主輸出還是威權輸出？"],["林部長佳龍：其實它是我們講的，透過一帶一路影響了很多國家朝向不是一個善治的發展，就是說債務、陷阱，另外就是透過這個方式去影響它國內的政治，這個是很普遍，所以為什麼……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，最近有很多國際媒體，包括國際組織都出了報告，甚至都點出像中國一帶一路這樣的策略，其實是打壓在各國內部的公民社會跟人權，甚至留下很多人權的災難，這個都是很多國際組織上面已經出了報告，這不是我說的，這是很多國際組織上面說的事情。所以，一樣，執行長，你覺得中國一帶一路是民主輸出，還是威權輸出？"],["廖執行長達琪：我覺得這個是另外一個議題。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，這是我現在問你的議題。"],["廖執行長達琪：一帶一路是威權輸出還是民主輸出？我覺得是多方面的，它有經濟上的層面，我不替它做個定性，但現在一帶一路也遭遇到很多困難。"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得現在國際的……"],["廖執行長達琪：我特別補充一下……"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，你覺得現在國際的民主陣營覺得一帶一路是民主輸出，還是威權輸出？我就問這個問題，就你的理解，你有專業啊！"],["廖執行長達琪：可能就民主陣營來講，會覺得所謂的一帶一路比較像是一個威權上的布建，就民主陣營的思維來講。"],["洪委員申翰：是。我們民主基金會一個很重要的部分，就是希望能夠跟剛才說的跟國際民主陣營站在一起，互相合作嘛，對不對？"],["廖執行長達琪：是。"],["洪委員申翰：就我的角度看起來，包括當時我們補助像這種一帶一路的討論，如果它這裡面的內容好像有點在鼓吹，或者是有點在往兩岸統合、或者是一帶一路方向上面去的話，我自己覺得，以現在的角度，當時我不評論，但現在角度，我認為這是不太適合的，把資源投入在像這樣子已經會被民主陣營認為是威權輸出的倡議上面，執行長覺得？"],["廖執行長達琪：委員，我稍微補充一下，因為它是學術討論。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["廖執行長達琪：我覺得我們學術討論上，因為我是學界出來的，會希望我們能夠料敵從寬，而且我們對敵人也要多了解一點點，所以學術討論上，如果它是一個open的，就像我們部長也是學界出身的，是很好的學校──耶魯大學，所以對於學術界討論一些議題、對國家了解敵人有幫助的，我覺得這是好的部分。當然，你說如果它是鼓吹的、是一個宣傳的話，那學術界就不會做這種事。"],["洪委員申翰：執行長，我們都很清楚知道，當初習近平推出一帶一路的時候，國際上面確實有一些人覺得好像這是一個對國際上面的投資，我們都知道這事情，但在經過多年以後，尤其是經過10年以後，大家也看清了一帶一路很多本質性的企圖，我想這部分執行長應該也同意嘛，對不對？同意嗎？"],["廖執行長達琪：同意啊！它會有它的企圖。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我的意思是，我們臺灣是一個多元言論自由的地方，我們不會說不能討論，但我覺得很重要的事情是，在民主基金會的運作，包括外交部的指導下的運作，我覺得民主基金會的價值方針要立得非常清楚，不能在價值的方針上面有所遲疑，包括模糊，但我不是說不能討論，當然可以討論，但價值的方針應該清楚，執行長同意嗎？"],["廖執行長達琪：價值方針很清楚，鼓勵言論自由，國內深化民主是我們很重視的價值。"],["洪委員申翰：我們當然贊成言論自由，我再說一次，我們當然贊成言論自由，但我要再強調一下，像這種問題曾經困擾過國際，也許有些人說，這是中國要來幫各國做基建的經濟投資，這個事情當時會討論，但當我們現在看清楚以後，我覺得我們在價值的方針上面就要立定清楚了，就不能夠打模糊仗、不能夠和稀泥。部長，同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：同意，因為10年前、10年後，確實情況越來越清楚。因為這個一帶一路這種威權輸出，它透過所謂的投資，事實上是在控制，也造成貪腐，很多舉債幾乎要破產的國家，他們的政治菁英就被俘虜了，這個帶來的就是違反善治，所以為什麼現在包括G7開始有相應的全球基本建設投資倡議，甚至有很多基金就是現在提供給開發中國家，也有另外一個選擇。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天在這邊把這些問題拿出來，這不是只是我自己個人的問題，我說過這段時間有很多來自公民社會的組織，包括民主基金會有幾位董事來找我討論，大家認為有些很重要的關鍵問題，還是希望民主基金會跟外交部都應該把它給表達清楚，尤其是在立場上面要立定清楚，但這不是我們要去打壓多元言論自由的部分，當然討論可以討論，可是我們在價值方向上，我還是再說一次，這件事情沒有猶疑的空間、更清楚。尤其是在這麼多年以後，現在國際的民主陣營怎麼看待中國、怎麼看待它的威權輸出等等各種作法，我想大家現在是越來越清楚，這部分部長一定很清楚，跟當時習近平剛接任中國，一開始上任以後，大概是非常非常不一樣的狀況，我覺得我們這部分還是要做一個表達。","接下來我還是想要跟部長請問，我們今天很多都討論到南非對於我們駐館不合理的要求這個問題，部長，我知道你們現在有談到在研擬相關的反制，但我想問部長，現在媒體上會有些人問到底為什麼要反制？反制有用嗎？我還是想請部長把為什麼要研擬反制、到底原因是什麼，再說明清楚一下。"],["林部長佳龍：基於我們國家的主權跟尊嚴，當然外交行為就是對等互惠，不對等，我們當然要相應的有反制，因為互惠其實對他「惠」是比較大，因為我們的貿易額以這幾年來講，大概是15億到20億美金，我們出口是逆差，所以如果純粹從雙邊關係來講，應該說對他們經貿的貢獻是比較大，另外就是我們有很多基於，不管是教育、文化或者是各方面的交流，包括獎學金、包括各種農業，還有涉及到一些雙方面的互動，這些我們當然會基於對等的原則，我們會有所因應。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，所以最基本的原則其實是基於對等，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：基本上是在對等的認知下來研擬，如果我們不做對等策略的研擬，部長，可能會導致什麼結果？"],["林部長佳龍：那就是有可能會有骨牌效應，然後得寸進尺，我們國人也不會支持，所以我們一定是要據理力爭，最後它如果不遵守協議或法律，是它沒有辦法得到國內外輿論的支持。世界很大，想要跟臺灣交往的國家很多，跟我們如果良性循環，我們就增加互惠或者交往；如果沒有的話，我們可以找跟我們理念相近、利益更密切的國家來交往。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我給你一個建議，包括不管是對媒體或對社會、包括各不同的政黨，我覺得要多去說明對等的重要性是什麼。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我覺得尤其我們在很多外交工作上面都必須基於對等的原則，所以這不是只是一個簡單的報復或者是什麼，而是基於對等的原則。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：如果沒有辦法用對等的原則來處理我們的外交工作的話，可能會造成什麼樣子國家利益的損害或者是有什麼負面的影響，我覺得這部分要講清楚。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：對等的概念不是只是一個口號，不是一個抽象的概念，我覺得這部分要讓社會大眾了解清楚，才會知道我們處在這樣子的世界裡面，這當然是我們不樂意看到的，也對我們國家利益是個損害，可是基於對等原則，我們還是必須做出、規劃相關的反制，這部分的理由、它的正當性是什麼，我覺得要跟大家說明清楚，不是只是說我做了什麼，更要跟大家說我為什麼要這麼做。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：但是我最後還是想提醒，部長，我們都知道，現在中國剛剛舉辦中菲合作論壇，它其實丟了將近3,600億人民幣，這個經費非常、非常大，所以我們心裡也有底，很可能會發生類似南非的狀況。現在這當然是一個案例，但確實有可能在其他國家還會發生，我們在心裡面知道還有可能發生，但發生的原因並不是因為臺灣做錯了什麼事情，而是中共霸道的行徑持續地還在擴大之中，這我們很清楚。可是對於接下來可能再發生的狀況，我自己最後還是建議，我覺得外交部還是要做好預先性的因應，而不是在一個、一個案例出來以後，大家覺得又一個、又一個，我覺得我們要把話講到前面，這當然是因為我們自己國際處境上面的困難，可是我覺得我們要跟社會大眾做好類似的溝通，這不是我們做錯了什麼……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們在這裡面沒有做錯什麼事情。我們堅守自己的主權，我們撐開自己的國際空間，但對不起，真的遇到了一個非常、非常霸道的惡鄰居在那個地方持續地……我們要把這件事情給講清楚，不是我們做錯什麼，不然我覺得現在可能有些社會或媒體會想要把它導引成好像我們在外交上做錯了什麼、好像我們現在的政府什麼事情沒做好，我還是希望部長要多費心在相關跟社會包括論述也好、說明也好，這部分是我們需要做的，部長，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，可以，非常同意。確實，其實世界之大，喜歡跟臺灣來往的，比如我們最近新設處的也有在印度的孟買，這個就是代表我們實質關係對彼此都很重要。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["林部長佳龍：以中、東歐國家來講，其實我們真正的外交關係是比一些邦交國、一般的都可能還要更密切。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我覺得我們的總和外交必須打破這種過去因為好像中共將我們矮化，我們就自我否定，不是！世界之大，我想都有臺灣發展的空間。"],["洪委員申翰：中共現在打壓我們的原因，是因為我們堅持自己的主權。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們堅持自己的主權是沒有錯的，今天它不打壓我們，只有一種可能，就是我們不堅持自己的主權了，它才可能停止對我們的打壓。我覺得這件事我們要跟社會表達清楚，這是我最後給部長的建議。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["洪委員申翰：我的時間到了，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：勇敢自信，世界同行。臺灣是世界的臺灣，我們也要走向世界，一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。待會陳冠廷委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}}