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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:00,932\n你好我們請部長請您部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,716 --> 00:00:36,143\n委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料\n\n3\n00:00:36,903 --> 00:01:03,893\n所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題\n\n4\n00:01:04,753 --> 00:01:05,294\n外交部也好有沒有相關的措施\n\n5\n00:01:15,229 --> 00:01:35,146\n有其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料\n\n6\n00:01:35,706 --> 00:02:04,042\n因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討\n\n7\n00:02:05,023 --> 00:02:06,264\n部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭\n\n8\n00:02:30,816 --> 00:02:54,657\n每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會\n\n9\n00:02:55,618 --> 00:02:57,499\n在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣\n\n10\n00:03:14,867 --> 00:03:35,656\n那也就是說不管是政黨包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統\n\n11\n00:03:36,596 --> 00:03:45,926\n如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善\n\n12\n00:03:47,009 --> 00:04:15,202\n是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視\n\n13\n00:04:15,942 --> 00:04:41,106\n我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官\n\n14\n00:04:41,406 --> 00:04:46,188\n第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?\n\n15\n00:05:11,305 --> 00:05:11,325\n部長\n\n16\n00:05:40,747 --> 00:06:03,296\n而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的\n\n17\n00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:13,927\n但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個\n\n18\n00:06:19,093 --> 00:06:36,534\n白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分\n\n19\n00:06:36,954 --> 00:07:00,460\n不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實\n\n20\n00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:25,172\n幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國\n\n21\n00:07:26,032 --> 00:07:26,652\n現代很多國家用印太戰略\n\n22\n00:07:55,976 --> 00:08:06,520\n的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚\n\n23\n00:08:12,483 --> 00:08:31,215\n部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外\n\n24\n00:08:32,696 --> 00:08:46,767\n國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是\n\n25\n00:08:54,714 --> 00:09:15,968\n這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說\n\n26\n00:09:17,749 --> 00:09:36,959\n現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海\n\n27\n00:09:38,480 --> 00:10:02,320\n這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisiveenabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊\n\n28\n00:10:05,765 --> 00:10:06,065\n李卓人議員\n\n29\n00:10:21,877 --> 00:10:21,917\n：陳冠廷\n\n30\n00:10:43,211 --> 00:11:01,402\n所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國\n\n31\n00:11:02,242 --> 00:11:06,003\n在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會\n\n32\n00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:46,020\n他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個\n\n33\n00:11:48,806 --> 00:12:05,040\n南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略\n\n34\n00:12:06,294 --> 00:12:16,286\n我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍\n\n35\n00:12:24,255 --> 00:12:47,605\n整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式\n\n36\n00:12:48,365 --> 00:13:09,806\n台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的\n\n37\n00:13:10,266 --> 00:13:10,486\n陳冠廷\n\n38\n00:13:31,286 --> 00:13:58,563\n我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強\n\n39\n00:13:59,423 --> 00:13:59,823\n：陳冠廷\n\n40\n00:14:30,149 --> 00:14:54,080\n我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n270\t932\t你好我們請部長請您部長\n12716\t36143\t委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料\n36903\t63893\t所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題\n64753\t65294\t外交部也好 有沒有相關的措施\n75229\t95146\t有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料\n95706\t124042\t因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討\n125023\t126264\t部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭\n150816\t174657\t每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會\n175618\t177499\t在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣\n194867\t215656\t那也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統\n216596\t225926\t如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善\n227009\t255202\t是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視\n255942\t281106\t我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官\n281406\t286188\t第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?\n311305\t311325\t部長\n340747\t363296\t而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的\n364116\t373927\t但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個\n379093\t396534\t白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分\n396954\t420460\t不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實\n421600\t445172\t幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國\n446032\t446652\t現代很多國家用印太戰略\n475976\t486520\t的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚\n492483\t511215\t部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外\n512696\t526767\t國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是\n534714\t555968\t這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說\n557749\t576959\t現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海\n578480\t602320\t這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisive enabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊\n605765\t606065\t李卓人議員\n621877\t621917\t：陳冠廷\n643211\t661402\t所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國\n662242\t666003\t在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會\n682950\t706020\t他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個\n708806\t725040\t南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略\n726294\t736286\t我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍\n744255\t767605\t整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式\n768365\t789806\t台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的\n790266\t790486\t陳冠廷\n811286\t838563\t我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強\n839423\t839823\t：陳冠廷\n870149\t894080\t我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性\n","txt":"你好我們請部長請您部長\n委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料\n所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題\n外交部也好 有沒有相關的措施\n有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料\n因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討\n部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭\n每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會\n在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣\n那也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統\n如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善\n是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視\n我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官\n第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?\n部長\n而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的\n但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個\n白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分\n不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實\n幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國\n現代很多國家用印太戰略\n的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚\n部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外\n國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是\n這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說\n現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海\n這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisive enabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊\n李卓人議員\n：陳冠廷\n所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國\n在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會\n他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個\n南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略\n我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍\n整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式\n台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的\n陳冠廷\n我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強\n：陳冠廷\n我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.270 --> 00:00.932\n你好我們請部長請您部長\n\n00:12.716 --> 00:36.143\n委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料\n\n00:36.903 --> 01:03.893\n所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題\n\n01:04.753 --> 01:05.294\n外交部也好有沒有相關的措施\n\n01:15.229 --> 01:35.146\n有其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料\n\n01:35.706 --> 02:04.042\n因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討\n\n02:05.023 --> 02:06.264\n部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭\n\n02:30.816 --> 02:54.657\n每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會\n\n02:55.618 --> 02:57.499\n在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣\n\n03:14.867 --> 03:35.656\n那也就是說不管是政黨包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統\n\n03:36.596 --> 03:45.926\n如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善\n\n03:47.009 --> 04:15.202\n是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視\n\n04:15.942 --> 04:41.106\n我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官\n\n04:41.406 --> 04:46.188\n第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?\n\n05:11.305 --> 05:11.325\n部長\n\n05:40.747 --> 06:03.296\n而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的\n\n06:04.116 --> 06:13.927\n但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個\n\n06:19.093 --> 06:36.534\n白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分\n\n06:36.954 --> 07:00.460\n不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實\n\n07:01.600 --> 07:25.172\n幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國\n\n07:26.032 --> 07:26.652\n現代很多國家用印太戰略\n\n07:55.976 --> 08:06.520\n的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚\n\n08:12.483 --> 08:31.215\n部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外\n\n08:32.696 --> 08:46.767\n國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是\n\n08:54.714 --> 09:15.968\n這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說\n\n09:17.749 --> 09:36.959\n現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海\n\n09:38.480 --> 10:02.320\n這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisiveenabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊\n\n10:05.765 --> 10:06.065\n李卓人議員\n\n10:21.877 --> 10:21.917\n：陳冠廷\n\n10:43.211 --> 11:01.402\n所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國\n\n11:02.242 --> 11:06.003\n在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會\n\n11:22.950 --> 11:46.020\n他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個\n\n11:48.806 --> 12:05.040\n南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略\n\n12:06.294 --> 12:16.286\n我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍\n\n12:24.255 --> 12:47.605\n整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式\n\n12:48.365 --> 13:09.806\n台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的\n\n13:10.266 --> 13:10.486\n陳冠廷\n\n13:31.286 --> 13:58.563\n我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強\n\n13:59.423 --> 13:59.823\n：陳冠廷\n\n14:30.149 --> 14:54.080\n我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.27,"end":0.932,"text":"你好我們請部長請您部長"},{"start":12.716,"end":36.143,"text":"委員好部長這個對台灣來講最重要的邦交國我想是包含安全上面的保障還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國可是我們的駐美辦事處最近應該也不是最近是今年其實旅船霸凌婚外情不當使用公款黑函公文外泄甚至是行程資訊訪團的言行都被出來爆料"},{"start":36.903,"end":63.893,"text":"所以我們在想說這樣國人是在對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心我想請教一下這些事情發生到現在大概是三個月了三個多月了其他的駐出外館我沒有看到有這麼頻繁的類似的這種狀況出現今天國防部也發生這個顧立雄部長還有這一個將官情報員的個資外流所以我們是很擔心這一些資訊我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題"},{"start":64.753,"end":65.294,"text":"外交部也好 有沒有相關的措施"},{"start":75.229,"end":95.146,"text":"有 其實在這些事情發生之後我們當然有檢討然後也做了調查跟很多的改善那當然外管在高度的壓力工作之下怎麼樣去把工作環境改善讓我們的同仁可以發揮那這是減少或者是說能夠去除這些所謂爆料"},{"start":95.706,"end":124.042,"text":"因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實但在第一時間造成的傷害卻我們很難去復原那如果人家爆料的有道理我們當然希望他循正常程序嘛我也有公佈相當配套的措施但是假設真的是有一些工作上的這個需要改善的我們其實在外管的這些不管人事或預算的制度上還有一些公務車啦等等的使用我們都做了一個檢討"},{"start":125.023,"end":126.264,"text":"部長我想我還是在強調就是說內部的競爭"},{"start":150.816,"end":174.657,"text":"每一個希望尋求更好的表現那得到自己的職涯的滿足我們都尊重但是把內部問題外部化不循正常管道的話那這是我們擔憂的部分那特別是現在台灣台美之間的關係已經試設安全相關的項目我們不希望說未來為了內部競爭不惜把所有的訊息就是要搞垮可能會"},{"start":175.618,"end":177.499,"text":"在美國的辦事處他所要效忠的對象是台灣"},{"start":194.867,"end":215.656,"text":"那也就是說不管是政黨 包含我們是執政黨或者是在野黨都不可以只是因為自己的關係然後把這些訊息往外洩漏還在強調現在連那個住處啊我看外交部的這些公文哪一些人嚇他哪一個地方其實都有相關的公文都出現了我是很擔心說外交部內部的這些管控系統"},{"start":216.596,"end":225.926,"text":"如果是像有今天的這種情勢像是國防部也發生這種個資出現的話這是很令人擔心的是部長可以承諾來去做相對的這些改善"},{"start":227.009,"end":255.202,"text":"是這是同步要一方面其實我們是一個法治國家如果有上公文外一些這種違法的事情一定要是查辦但是如果有管理上或者是說因為一些包括我們很重視就是不管是像性平的議題有霸凌或者是有一些公務的這些車或者是經費的濫用這些當然我們是很重視"},{"start":255.942,"end":281.106,"text":"我在這個過程當中也發現其實每個外管也需要讓他能夠發揮怎麼讓他發揮作用我同意就是說最後再就是說之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去不管是給媒體等等應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法去把他們反映出來所以內部不管是在對這個管理的方式有看法的話必須要把這個確保說內部的管道可以反映基層外交官"},{"start":281.406,"end":286.188,"text":"第二部分關於一中政策或一中原則的武器化部長請教一下中國的一中原則跟美國的或歐盟民主陣營的一中政策有什麼不同?"},{"start":311.305,"end":311.325,"text":"部長"},{"start":340.747,"end":363.296,"text":"而且很多的原則包括六項保證委員也知道對 其實部長基本上我們二要的講就是中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權那他們說台灣是中國的一部分但是美日歐等等民主的政治型的國家大概對前兩句是認知到但是第三句基本上是不認可的"},{"start":364.116,"end":373.927,"text":"但是不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策其實在國際上面對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的所以這個前美國的這個"},{"start":379.093,"end":396.534,"text":"白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到說把一中政策的這些智慧詞彙來去做修正把它成為兩岸政策我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國去遊說的部分不知道部長同不同意這個部分"},{"start":396.954,"end":420.46,"text":"不要讓智慧作為混淆的一個武器化的一個方式啊確實啦其實有些國家他們根本就不談一中政策啊包括印度啦包括英國等等其實有一些涉及到跟中國交往那過去長久以來累積的這種這個所謂的說法他的內容當然很重要嘛我們再釐清就知道其實"},{"start":421.6,"end":445.172,"text":"幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原者但是各國的對中國的政策跟對台灣的政策是不是要有關聯還是分開其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異所以確實在名詞上就是說因為有時候就是一個只是一個很簡要的說法所謂的一個中國"},{"start":446.032,"end":446.652,"text":"現代很多國家用印太戰略"},{"start":475.976,"end":486.52,"text":"的這個對中的政策而不是用其實已經都盡量避免或是說其實減少那尤其在聯邦這個258號決議美國的這個試點這個說明之後我想這個情勢是也很清楚"},{"start":492.483,"end":511.215,"text":"部長剛剛談到印太政策剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你來討論一下中國最近對台的軍演其實美日歐30多國都已經表達關切那敦促中國克制還有其他工業國也發表聯合聲明這個我想部長都知道但是除了我們表達關切之外"},{"start":512.696,"end":526.767,"text":"國際的關切有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺台的作為不知道部長會怎麼樣跟他們建議或者透過我們外交部各國的這個住處我們要怎麼樣的建議其實維持台海的和平跟穩定是"},{"start":534.714,"end":555.968,"text":"這裏面自由航行權是一個很具體的這不能夠讓台海內海化那讓台灣變成中國的內政問題到時候就關起門來就對台灣發動戰爭嘛到時候外國也沒有辦法基於這個他們的利益來去介入那我覺得這個是說"},{"start":557.749,"end":576.959,"text":"現在國際上很清楚是說我們台灣的政府是我們是要維護現狀都是我們的和平跟穩定反而是中國在破壞現狀他用各種的混合戰啊灰色的作戰的方法那也不只針對台灣他針對第一島鏈包括不只台海包括這個南海東海"},{"start":578.48,"end":602.32,"text":"這一個情形他是他的這個威權的輸出啊除了一帶一路啊最近就是很明顯俄烏戰爭啊就是中國是俄國侵略的所謂的關鍵的這個推動者嘛就是decisive enabler所以這個認定也在那一頭在這個G7很多國家都是這樣認定的時候其實中國的這個威權的擴張啊"},{"start":605.765,"end":606.065,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":621.877,"end":621.917,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":643.211,"end":661.402,"text":"所以這就是我們一再強調的把這個台灣海峽國際化之外還有鼓勵各國跟台灣的各個情報經濟軍事上面安全上面的這些資源共享那當然另外一個部分就是灰色地帶的親老他們的海警船我認為包含我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國"},{"start":662.242,"end":666.003,"text":"在這裡我補充一下委員他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警的船是不一樣他其實就是中央軍委會"},{"start":682.95,"end":706.02,"text":"他就是軍艦啊?所以他這個海警知名在做灰色清場事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀他們就是在做這件事情所以我們更加要相對的因應那不好意思時間有限趕快來問到我們這個南南合作的部分就是中國的南南合作他是要強化跟這個全球南方國家的政治經濟政治聯繫所以我們最近在看到南非的事件的時候我想要請教這個部長這個"},{"start":708.806,"end":725.04,"text":"南非中國跟南非之間的關係跟台灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎當然是不一樣的我必須要強調我還是要講一下就是說我國的外交資源是有限的那我們一直講我們的印太戰略"},{"start":726.294,"end":736.286,"text":"我來比較一下南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴那中國至南非進口的這個數額大概是320億美金那台灣至南非進口是4.94億美元那我說這個量體是65倍"},{"start":744.255,"end":767.605,"text":"整整65倍所以當我們在做外交資源的投放的時候我們必須要思考那我再來強調一個部分印度我們有新南向政策但我還是認為這印度跟台灣之間不僅僅是厲害是一致的在地緣政治上面的挑戰我認為加強對印度的關係或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式"},{"start":768.365,"end":789.806,"text":"台灣這個印度進口是在2023年是22.11億美元那中國的印度進口大概是185億大概是7倍到8倍也就是說在南非我們之間的差距是65倍之多但是在印度卻是不同而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的是有含金量的"},{"start":790.266,"end":790.486,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":811.286,"end":838.563,"text":"我非常贊成委員的主張其實我們的新南向政策東協跟南亞是要分開南亞與印度最重要所以台灣跟印度應該建立更全面的深入的合作關係因為印太戰略裡面很重要其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突但經濟上當然是一種競合關係而我們跟印度之間幾乎是可以說是互補性很強"},{"start":839.423,"end":839.823,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":870.149,"end":894.08,"text":"我們會持續檢討然後做一些就是我們的外交這個重點的一個這個集中委員所講的加強跟我們理念相近或是說能夠互補的一個合作的國家當價值觀不同的地方我們就用利害跟他一致當利害一致但價值觀不同的國家那我們還是有其他的方式我們外交可以更彈性"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時38分）我們請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，對臺灣來講，最重要的邦交國是包含安全上面的保障，還有外交上面提供很多協助的美國，可是我們的駐美辦事處今年屢傳霸凌、婚外情、不當使用公款、黑函、公文外洩，甚至是行程資訊，訪團的言行都被爆料出來，所以國人對我們的駐美辦事處有一些擔心。我想請教一下，這些事情發生到現在大概三個多月了，其他的駐外館處，我沒有看到有這麼頻繁類似的這種狀況出現。今天國防部也發生顧立雄部長，還有將官、情報員的個資外流，所以我們很擔心這一些資訊，我們不希望是因為內部管理的問題反而流出在外面，這是操之在己的，這不是敵對勢力在做的，所以我們必須要知道外交部有沒有相關的措施？"],["林部長佳龍：有，其實在這些事情發生之後，我們當然有檢討，也做了調查跟很多的改善，而外館在高度的壓力工作之下，怎麼樣去把工作環境改善，讓我們的同仁可以發揮，或者能夠減少、去除這些所謂的爆料？因為爆料往往不一定是完全真實，但在第一時間造成的傷害我們卻很難去復原，如果人家爆料的有道理，我們當然希望他循正常程序，我也有公布相關的配套措施，假設真的有一些工作上需要改善的，其實外館不管在人事、預算制度還有公務車等等的使用上，我們都做了檢討。有一些其實要更嚴格、有些要放鬆、有些要賦予外館彈性，不能只是因為有一些爆料我們就讓外館無法運作，但是有權的人要有責任，所以我要加強館長制，就是說他的權責必須相符，給他更大的空間，他要負起更大的責任。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我還是再強調，關於內部的競爭，每一個希望尋求更好的表現、得到自己的職涯滿足，我們都尊重，但是把內部問題外部化、不循正常管道的話，這是我們擔憂的部分，特別現在臺美之間的關係已經事涉安全相關的項目，我們不希望未來為了內部競爭，不惜把所有的訊息……就是要搞垮這些可能會跟他們競爭的對象。所以這是一個很嚴肅的議題，我還是再次強調，不管是什麼樣的政治人物、不管他的價值理念，不代表他跟我不一樣所以我就要把這些資訊洩出去，這是不可以的！在美國的辦事處所要效忠的對象是臺灣，也就是說，不管是政黨，無論我們是執政黨或者是在野黨，都不可以只是因為自己的關係而把這些訊息往外洩漏，還是要再強調！","現在連住處等等，我看外交部的這些公文，關於哪一些人下榻哪一個地方，其實相關的公文都出現，我是很擔心外交部內部的這些管控系統，如果像是今天這種情事，像國防部也發生這種個資出現的話，這是很令人擔心的！是不是部長可以承諾去做相對的改善？"],["林部長佳龍：是，這是同步要去……一方面其實我們是一個法治國家，如果有像公文外洩這種違法的事情一定要去查辦，但是如果有管理上或者是一些我們很重視的，不管是像性平的議題、霸凌、公務車或經費的濫用，這些我們當然很重視。我在這個過程當中也發現，其實每個外館也需要讓他能夠發揮，看怎麼樣讓他發揮作用。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我同意。最後，之所以他們會選擇這樣子把這些資訊洩出去，不管是給媒體等等，應該就是內部的管道沒有辦法反映出來，所以內部對於管理方式有看法的話，必須要確保內部的管道可以反映基層外交官的心聲。"],["林部長佳龍：所以不管是我的部長信箱或者是相關的申訴管道，然後我們怎麼樣去保護同仁，讓他可以下情上達。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，這是非常重要的。","部長，第二個部分，關於一中政策或者是一中原則武器化的部分，我想教一下部長，中國的一中原則跟美國或者歐盟民主陣營的一中政策大概有什麼不同？"],["林部長佳龍：很不同，所謂一中有各種版本，中國的一中原則就是所謂的一中三段論，其實大部分國家都不支持那樣，他們有另外的版本、所謂的一中政策，像美國有提到的時候，也是先立基在臺灣關係法、六項保證還有三個公報，你就可以知道臺灣關係法的重要。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，基本上……"],["林部長佳龍：而且很多的原則，包括六項保證，我想委員也知道。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。部長，基本上我們扼要的講，中國的一中原則就是世界上只有一個中國，中華人民共和國是代表中國的唯一合法政權，那他們說臺灣是中國的一部分；但是美、日、歐等等民主陣營的國家，大概對前兩句有認知到，但是第三句基本上是不認可的。不管是講一中原則或者是講一中政策，其實在國際上對於沒有直接涉國際事務的一般民眾來講、甚至是經貿人士來講是相對複雜的。所以前美國白宮國安會亞洲事務部副資深主任簡以榮曾經有提到，把一中政策的這些字彙、詞彙做修正、把它成為兩岸政策，我認為這是我們外交部可以繼續努力向美國遊說的部分，不知道部長同不同意這個部分？不要讓字彙作為混淆的武器化的方式。"],["林部長佳龍：確實有些國家根本就不談一中政策，包括印度、包括英國等等，有一些涉及到跟中國交往，過去長久以來累積所謂的說法，它的內容當然很重要，我們釐清就知道，其實幾乎所有民主國家都不是支持中共的一中原則，但是各國對中國的政策跟對臺灣的政策是不是有關聯還是分開？其實這個也都因不同的國家而有差異，所以確實在名詞上，因為有時候就只是一個很簡要的說法，所謂的一個中國，事實上內容是不同版本。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，當然是不同版本，但是對我們來說、對臺灣來講，增強臺灣的印象，包含我們是一個主權獨立的國家等等印象，可能不適合再用一中政策這樣子的說法，所以如果有機會，我認為臺灣的外交部可以通知各國或者是向他們表達說，或許他們可以用新的名詞來定義臺灣跟他們國家的關係，我覺得這樣比較妥當。"],["林部長佳龍：是，現在很多國家用印太戰略的對中政策，而不是用什麼……其實已經都儘量避免或是減少去談。"],["陳委員冠廷：太棒了，剛好部長提到印太政策……"],["林部長佳龍：尤其在美國對聯合國第2758號決議的四點說明之後，我想這個情勢也很清楚。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長剛剛談到印太政策，剛好我們就針對這個部分來跟你討論一下。關於中國最近對臺的軍演，其實美、日、歐三十多國都已經表達關切、敦促中國克制，還有七大工業國也發表聯合聲明，這個我想部長都知道，但是除了我們表達關切之外，國際的關切上有沒有什麼比較可以具體去挺臺的作為，不知道部長會怎麼樣建議他們，或者透過我們外交部各國的駐處要怎麼樣建議？"],["林部長佳龍：其實維持臺海的和平跟穩定是這些理念相近或民主國家的共識，我覺得這裡面自由航行權是一個很具體的，不能夠讓臺海內海化、讓臺灣變成中國的內政問題，到時候關起門來就對臺灣發動戰爭，到時候外國也沒有辦法基於他們的利益介入。現在國際上很清楚，我們臺灣的政府是要維護現狀，就是我們的和平跟穩定，反而是中國在破壞現狀，他用各種的混合戰、灰色作戰的方法。也不只針對臺灣，他針對第一島鏈，不只臺海，包括南海、東海，他的威權輸出除了一帶一路，最近很明顯就是俄烏戰爭，中國是俄國侵略的關鍵推動者，就是Decisive enabler，所以在NATO、G7等很多國家都是這樣認定的時候，其實中國的威權擴張已經對以規則為基礎的國際秩序造成很大的挑戰。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長講得非常好，綜合剛才講的，第一個，當中國想要內海化臺灣海峽的時候，我們就把它國際化，所以我們鼓勵自由航行、各個軍艦來。第二個部分，就是把跟我們有共同利害的國家集團化，也就是中國想把俄羅斯跟北朝鮮，甚至是伊朗，把他們集體化，他們情報共享、經濟共享，甚至軍事協助，但我們也要強調，我國的利益跟我們的利害跟日本、菲律賓，甚至跟美國還有一些歐洲國家都是一致的。所以這就是我們一再強調的，把臺灣海峽國際化之外，還有鼓勵各國跟臺灣在情報、經濟、軍事、安全上面的資源共享。另外一個部分，就是灰色地帶的侵擾，他們的海警船，我認為我們可以跟日本還有菲律賓等國強調他們要增加海警的，不管是海警艦艇的建造數量等等，我們還有共同的訓練等，都是一致化的，我們外交部可以表達這些相關的訊息……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我補充一下，他的海警船跟我們的海巡署這種海警船是不一樣的，其實就是中央軍委會，它就是軍艦，所以海警在灰色地帶侵擾事實上是在用軍事行動破壞現狀……"],["陳委員冠廷：他們就是在做這件事情，所以我們更加要相對的因應。不好意思，時間有限，趕快來問南南合作的部分。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：中國的南南合作是要強化跟全球南方國家政治經濟、政治聯繫，所以我們最近在看到南非事件的時候，我想要請教部長，中國跟南非之間的關係跟臺灣跟南非之間的關係是有對等的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然是不一樣的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須要強調，我國的外交資源是有限的，我們一直在講印太戰略，我來比較一下，南非是中國在非洲最大的貿易夥伴，中國自南非進口的數額大概是320億美金，臺灣自南非進口是4.94億美元，這個量體是65倍，整整65倍，所以當我們在投放外交資源的時候，我們必須要思考。","我再來強調一個部分，印度，我們有新南向政策，但我還是認為印度跟臺灣之間，不僅僅是利害一致的，在地緣政治上面的挑戰，我認為加強對印度的關係，或許會是另外一個我們可以調配資源的方式。臺灣自印度進口，在2023年是22.11億美元，中國自印度進口大概是185億，大概是七倍到八倍，也就是說在南非，我們之間的差距是65倍之多，但是在印度卻是不同，而且我們與之進口或者是貿易的內容是非常有意義的，是有含金量的，是高科技跟資訊相關的都有。所以我必須要強調說，我們對印度應該建立獨立的政策，它不是新南向的一環，它是全球人口數最多、經濟成長率非常高、最大的民主國家，我們必須要重新定位我們的外交資源配置，不知道部長這樣……"],["林部長佳龍：我非常贊成委員的主張，其實我們的新南向政策中，東協跟南亞是要分開，南亞與印度最重要，臺灣跟印度應該建立更全面的、深入的合作關係，因為印太戰略裡面很重要，其實印度跟中國還有地緣政治上領土的衝突，經濟上當然是一種競合關係，而我們跟印度之間，幾乎可以說是互補性很強，可以建立全面而深入的夥伴關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：最近我們在開公聽會，談到太空政策，印度辦事處副代表就跟我們談到，印度的太空計畫是全球最便宜的，包含發射等等都是最便宜，所以我認為在跟印度交往的時候，除了經貿之外、科技之間充滿了潛力，還是再次強調重新來做盤整，把資源投放在刀口上面，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會持續檢討，做一些外交重點的集中，如委員所講的，加強跟我們理念相近或是能夠互補的合作的國家……"],["陳委員冠廷：價值觀不同的地方，我們就用利害跟它一致；當利害一致，但價值觀不同的國家，我們還是有其他的方式，我們外交可以更彈性。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。","我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時53分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：繼續開會。","我們現在請林德福委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-6","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","王定宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","黃仁","洪申翰","林楚茵","陳冠廷","林德福","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅智強"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138601_00003"}}}