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00:00:41,045\n我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間\n\n4\n00:00:52,359 --> 00:01:13,958\n那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少\n\n5\n00:01:15,066 --> 00:01:38,306\n到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把\n\n6\n00:01:39,006 --> 00:02:07,105\n國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你\n\n7\n00:02:08,220 --> 00:02:24,033\n沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講\n\n8\n00:02:25,194 --> 00:02:45,362\n然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來\n\n9\n00:02:46,762 --> 00:02:57,249\n那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問\n\n10\n00:02:59,653 --> 00:03:26,147\n對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作\n\n11\n00:03:26,767 --> 00:03:39,779\n這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼\n\n12\n00:03:44,123 --> 00:03:58,033\n老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個\n\n13\n00:04:00,174 --> 00:04:20,599\n衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話\n\n14\n00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:40,496\n是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言\n\n15\n00:04:41,737 --> 00:04:49,121\n我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的\n\n16\n00:05:03,987 --> 00:05:25,382\n條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。\n\n17\n00:05:26,232 --> 00:05:34,857\n沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?\n\n18\n00:05:51,401 --> 00:06:13,289\n蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的\n\n19\n00:06:18,170 --> 00:06:28,076\n問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝\n\n20\n00:06:38,681 --> 00:06:39,001\n財政部要記得\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t13284\t再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席你講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題\n17745\t35197\t就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說\n36278\t41045\t我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間\n52359\t73958\t那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少\n75066\t98306\t到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把\n99006\t127105\t國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你\n128220\t144033\t沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講\n145194\t165362\t然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來\n166762\t177249\t那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問\n179653\t206147\t對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作\n206767\t219779\t這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼\n224123\t238033\t老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個\n240174\t260599\t衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話\n261519\t280496\t是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言\n281737\t289121\t我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的\n303987\t325382\t條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。\n326232\t334857\t沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?\n351401\t373289\t蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的\n378170\t388076\t問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝\n398681\t399001\t財政部要記得\n","txt":"再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席你講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題\n就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說\n我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間\n那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少\n到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把\n國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你\n沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講\n然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來\n那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問\n對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作\n這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼\n老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個\n衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話\n是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言\n我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的\n條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。\n沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?\n蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的\n問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝\n財政部要記得\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:13.284\n再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席你講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題\n\n00:17.745 --> 00:35.197\n就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說\n\n00:36.278 --> 00:41.045\n我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間\n\n00:52.359 --> 01:13.958\n那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少\n\n01:15.066 --> 01:38.306\n到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把\n\n01:39.006 --> 02:07.105\n國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你\n\n02:08.220 --> 02:24.033\n沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講\n\n02:25.194 --> 02:45.362\n然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來\n\n02:46.762 --> 02:57.249\n那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問\n\n02:59.653 --> 03:26.147\n對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作\n\n03:26.767 --> 03:39.779\n這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼\n\n03:44.123 --> 03:58.033\n老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個\n\n04:00.174 --> 04:20.599\n衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話\n\n04:21.519 --> 04:40.496\n是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言\n\n04:41.737 --> 04:49.121\n我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的\n\n05:03.987 --> 05:25.382\n條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。\n\n05:26.232 --> 05:34.857\n沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?\n\n05:51.401 --> 06:13.289\n蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的\n\n06:18.170 --> 06:28.076\n問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝\n\n06:38.681 --> 06:39.001\n財政部要記得\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":13.284,"text":"再跟主席我們是不是確認一下就是說主席你講的暢所欲言這四個字那代表的意義是不是我們等一下今天廣泛討論嘛那我們廣泛討論我認為說現在財化法有一個很大的問題"},{"start":17.745,"end":35.197,"text":"就是說我們在談水平分配的時候事實上剛剛已經有多位立委包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法那甚至還有所謂的一些屬於稅法的一個部分所以它牽涉的層面是很多我包括說"},{"start":36.278,"end":41.045,"text":"我自己有一個版本嘛我的版本是跟國土計畫有點做聯動就是說我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到因為農地農用那農地農用勢必他會壓縮到地方他未來可以發展的一個空間"},{"start":52.359,"end":73.958,"text":"那在這個發展的一個空間被壓縮的情況之下每一個地方他未來會有多少農地那針對他的農地的部分去給他統籌分配上的一些加權這個是我的一個主張但是目前為止我在我這一次發言的時候我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少"},{"start":75.066,"end":98.306,"text":"到底新北跟桃園跟嘉義雲林台南我們未來他所涉及到的農一農二或者是國保一國保二他的比例是多少我們不知道那也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的一個答案因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市一些縣市他是沒有把"},{"start":99.006,"end":127.105,"text":"國土計劃的一些未來的一個細部的一個分區表提出來所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊所以這個一個一個連動之下變成我們的今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候他就是有一個缺陷因為我們要討論未來這個農地農用跟地方政府他負擔著糧食安全的對應他能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候我沒理你"},{"start":128.22,"end":144.033,"text":"沒有數據所以我覺得說我們應該是要科語行政機關現在有一個很大的就是說他們目前指標有八十幾樣的指標那這樣講起來不太高只有五個指標是有共識的其他都還沒有共識這部分就要下去講"},{"start":145.194,"end":165.362,"text":"然後這部分去講他包括人口他包括面積包括我剛剛講的農地的比例包括地方產業造成污染的比例包括地方如果發展綠能他的綠能他應該要有多少的比例所以這你這樣講起來的話他也不是只有財政部捏你看內政部啊你說涉及到污染環境部也應該要來"},{"start":166.762,"end":177.249,"text":"那如果涉及到了我剛講的農地的時候農業部也應該要參與所以這個立安內公財政收支劃分法什麼水平分配這件事情是一個大學問"},{"start":179.653,"end":206.147,"text":"對,農業部嘛所以這個我認為這個大學我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配那垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰但是在搶錢大戰的時候也還有所謂事權的問題因為你說過去這個在京省前有很多業務可能是當時是在省政府的層級那在京省之後把預算回歸到中央同樣的也把這一些工作"},{"start":206.767,"end":219.779,"text":"這些屬於業務範圍的也都把他拉到了中央那未來如果我們要把地方給他更大的一個財政的一個財源的時候是不是對應的這些事權也應該要下放那如果事權下放的話我再舉一個老農津貼"},{"start":224.123,"end":238.033,"text":"老榮津貼過去的暫行條例他是有說這個增加我忘了是哪一年修的但是他說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收所以現在你看光看到老榮津貼再加上這一個"},{"start":240.174,"end":260.599,"text":"衛福部關於健保的一個給付中央這部分就吸收了一千多億那未來如果你要把這些財政這些財源要下放的時候是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的那如果要回到這裡的話"},{"start":261.519,"end":280.496,"text":"是不是老容今天暫行條例必須要連動的修法是不是我們全民健保的相關的法案也必須要去修法所以這個有很多問題所以我是希望說主席我們今天廣泛討論那等下我如果發言結束了是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言"},{"start":281.737,"end":289.121,"text":"我們可以再做二次的法院,所以我認為主席看這個可以,因為我當然也會坐在這裡聽,但是一定大家在廣泛的討論上問很多問題,有很多問題你就要再說下去問啊所以我現在的感覺就是說,你這樣程序走,你這樣拗一拗,我們要進入主條,到主條的時候,那就是要說問題的"},{"start":303.987,"end":325.382,"text":"條文文字的本身,它對於很多我需要的一個數據,它是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的。所以我希望主席這樣看可以嗎?就是說,我們待會的官方討論,我們就繼續讓它進行,大家暢所欲言,但是我們需要二次發言。所以這部分是不是我們,我可以先有一個具體主席,你先...我可以回答,你講完我就回答。"},{"start":326.232,"end":334.857,"text":"沒有沒有,你要這樣說一下嗎,不然我要繼續說啊,因為我怕我沒二次發言,我現在放屁我現在發言喔?你講完我就會回答了我講到結束喔?我要繼續說啊,對啊,所以我現在還想你講後面委員的權利,但是沒關係,如果其他,下一場委員,有意見喔?"},{"start":351.401,"end":373.289,"text":"蔡委員我先回答您說的我現在不是說我也不想影響到大家的權利我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言會有二次發言財政部各部會官要注意喔如果下午有什麼會議的話晚上有什麼會議的話記得要排開喔要準備晚餐喔我們今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言嘛然後剛剛蔡委員所提到的"},{"start":378.17,"end":388.076,"text":"問題是很多的阿好沒問題沒問題所以我們就是等一下往還是要會有二次登記、三次登記登記到晚上12點喔沒關西阿我們就這樣說好了阿這樣可以了齁謝謝"},{"start":398.681,"end":399.001,"text":"財政部要記得"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時35分）好，謝謝主席。我沒有要請我們的部會，因為我想再跟主席確認一下，主席所說的「暢所欲言」這四個字代表的意義。現在是廣泛討論，我認為現在財劃法有一個很大的問題，就是我們在談水平分配的時候，事實上剛剛已經有多位立委，包括國民黨的立委都講到了有地方制度法，甚至還有屬於稅法的一個部分，所以其牽涉的層面是很多的。包括我自己有一個版本，我的版本是跟國土計畫有點連動，我希望未來在討論水平分配的時候要牽扯到農地農用，因為農地農用勢必會壓縮到地方未來可以發展的空間，在這個發展空間被壓縮的情況之下，每一個地方未來會有多少農地，針對其農地的部分去給它統籌分配上的一些加權，這個是我的一個主張。但是目前為止，我在這一次發言的時候，我沒有辦法知道這個比例是多少，到底新北跟桃園、跟嘉義、雲林、臺南，未來它所涉及的農一、農二，或者是國保一、國保二，它的比例是多少，我們不知道！也許這部分內政部可以給我們答案，可是我相信現在內政部也還沒有統一的答案，因為我們知道現在還有一些縣市沒有把國土計畫未來的細部分區表提出來，所以內政部也還沒有辦法掌握這個資訊。","在一個一個連動之下，變成我們今天在討論財政收支劃分法的時候，就會有一個缺陷，因為我們要討論未來農地農用跟地方政府負擔著糧食安全的對應，它能不能拿到更多的統籌分配這一件事情的時候，哇！沒有數據！所以我覺得我們應該要課以行政機關一個很大的任務，他們目前有八十幾樣的指標，按照這樣說起來，目前只有五個指標是有共識的，其他都還沒有共識，這部分就要大家來討論，包括人口、包括面積、包括我剛剛講的農地比例，包括地方產業造成污染的比例，包括地方如果發展綠能它應該要有多少的比例，所以照這樣說起來，也不是只有財政部，你看有內政部，如果有涉及污染，環境部也應該要來參與；如果涉及到我剛剛講的農地時，農業部也應該要參與。所以你說財政收支劃分法為什麼在水平分配這件事情上是一個大學問，我認為這是一個大學問，我們不能說現在我們只處理垂直分配。","垂直分配就是中央跟地方在做搶錢大戰，但是在搶錢大戰的時候，也還有事權的問題。如果說過去在精省前，有很多業務可能當時是在省政府的層級，在精省之後把預算回歸到中央，同樣的也把這一些工作、這一些屬於業務範圍的部分都拉到了中央，未來如果我們要給地方更大的財政財源時，是不是對應的這一些事權也應該要下放？如果事權下放的話，我再舉一個老農津貼的例子，老農津貼過去的暫行條例是有說增加……我忘了是哪一年修的，但是它說未來增加的部分都由中央來吸收。所以現在光看老農津貼再加上衛福部的關於健保的給付，中央這部分就吸收了一千多億，未來如果要把這些財政、財源下放的時候，是不是這部分中央就不必要再去負擔原本就應該是屬於地方要負擔的？好，那如果要回到這裡的話，是不是老農津貼暫行條例必須要連動地修法，是不是我們全民健保的相關法案也必須要去修法？所以這個有很多問題。","所以我只希望說，主席，我們今天廣泛討論，等一下我如果發言結束，是不是容許我們可以再做二次的發言？主席看這個可以嗎？因為等一下我也會坐在這裡聽啊！等一下大家在廣泛討論的時候一定會問很多問題，既然有很多問題，我們就要再接下去問啊！所以我現在的感覺就是，按照這樣的程序，下次我們如果要進入逐條，到逐條的時候就要說條文文字的本身，而對於很多我需要的數據是沒有辦法可以給我們掌握的，所以主席可以嗎？就是等一下廣泛討論就繼續讓它進行，大家暢所欲言，但是我們需要二次發言，所以這部分是不是我可以先有一個具體……主席你先……"],["主席：我可以回答嗎？你講完我就回答。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，你要講一下，不然我還要再繼續講，因為我怕我沒有二次發言……"],["主席：因為5分鐘了，沒關係……"],["蔡委員易餘：我如果現在放棄我的權利，我剛剛才被……"],["主席：你講完我就會回答了。"],["蔡委員易餘：我講到結束喔？那我還要繼續講，所以我現在……"],["主席：會影響後面委員的權利，但是沒關係，如果其他在場委員有意見……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們要發言耶！"],["主席：不然沒關係，我來回答。蔡委員，我先回答您說的……"],["蔡委員易餘：主席，我現在就是說我也不想要影響到大家的權利，大家都有……"],["主席：好，沒關係，我們今天就會讓大家暢所欲言，會有二次發言。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["主席：財政部各部會官員要注意，如果下午有什麼會議的話、晚上有什麼會議的話，記得要排開，我們要準備晚餐喔！"],["蔡委員易餘：今天就是讓大家可以暢所欲言，但是……"],["主席：沒問題，剛剛蔡委員所提到的……"],["蔡委員易餘：問題是很多的啊！"],["主席：好，OK，沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒問題，所以我們就是等一下完還是要……"],["主席：會、會、會，會有二次登記、三次登記，登記到晚上12點，沒關係。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，OK，我們就這樣說好了喔！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：不能像剛才程序發言把我趕下去。"],["主席：沒有，那是程序發言嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛剛有點被誆的感覺耶。"],["主席：現在正式進入主題，沒問題、沒問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：那個感覺很差。現在你說三次、四次……"],["主席：沒問題，不會、不會，各位要有挑燈夜戰的心理準備。接著，剛剛蔡委員所提到的環境部，下回我們一定要……有邀請，今天有來，你下次發言也可以請他們上來詢問，內政部也有來，可以詢問，下次我們一定要邀請農業部過來，財政部要記得，今天開會名單你們沒有邀請農業部，還有內政部的官員至少是次長、部長，來的部會聽到了齁，相關的委員都有提出喔！包括內政部來的官員位階的問題，當然還有環境部、農業部。財政部要記得，我們下次邀請一定要邀請這些單位。好，還有哪個部會呢？"],["蔡委員易餘：我等一下再說。"],["主席：好，沒關係，好，OK，好，那地方制度法是內政部，財政部的公債法跟地方稅法都要趕快提出來喔！不要身為執政的，效率這麼差，我們要牽頭往前行。","好，接著我們請登記3號的李坤城委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}