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{\"start\": 101.635, \"end\": 102.899, \"text\": \"注釋,有沒有聽到?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 101.635, \"end\": 101.775, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 101.775, \"end\": 102.257, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 102.257, \"end\": 102.779, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 102.779, \"end\": 102.879, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 102.879, \"end\": 102.899, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 105.77, \"end\": 129.599, \"text\": \"有沒有 領導你看 我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 105.77, \"end\": 105.91, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 105.91, \"end\": 108.011, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 108.011, \"end\": 108.091, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 664.709, \"end\": 665.75, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 665.75, \"end\": 665.891, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 665.891, \"end\": 666.051, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 666.051, \"end\": 666.592, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 666.592, \"end\": 666.852, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 666.852, \"end\": 667.052, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 667.052, \"end\": 667.072, \"score\": 0.102}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,857 --> 00:00:14,159\n謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申\n\n2\n00:00:29,126 --> 00:00:45,063\n這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年\n\n3\n00:00:46,104 --> 00:01:10,858\n明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有山珍海味明天就不知道會不會吃飽你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個\n\n4\n00:01:11,898 --> 00:01:40,233\n既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財劃法是相關的不是只有修我們財劃法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修\n\n5\n00:01:41,635 --> 00:01:42,899\n注釋,有沒有聽到?\n\n6\n00:01:45,770 --> 00:02:09,599\n有沒有領導你看我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多\n\n7\n00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:12,940\n請教一下次長跟主計長\n\n8\n00:02:30,607 --> 00:02:48,737\n這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應\n\n9\n00:02:50,058 --> 00:03:17,287\n那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:19,077 --> 00:03:37,939\n現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?\n\n11\n00:03:39,000 --> 00:04:04,640\n所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用\n\n12\n00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:19,895\n所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:26,742 --> 00:04:34,471\n中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外\n\n14\n00:04:46,004 --> 00:05:12,953\n中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?\n\n15\n00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:28,844\n至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話\n\n16\n00:05:31,389 --> 00:05:46,313\n因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助\n\n17\n00:05:46,733 --> 00:06:15,535\n那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助\n\n18\n00:06:16,391 --> 00:06:37,739\n少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費\n\n19\n00:06:39,039 --> 00:06:58,886\n中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?\n\n20\n00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:32,939\n其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上\n\n21\n00:07:34,860 --> 00:07:47,046\n對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配\n\n22\n00:07:48,391 --> 00:08:08,045\n如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億\n\n23\n00:08:09,181 --> 00:08:27,226\n剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災\n\n24\n00:08:28,306 --> 00:08:47,726\n有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種\n\n25\n00:08:49,568 --> 00:08:57,505\n這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎\n\n26\n00:09:01,341 --> 00:09:25,478\n跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政\n\n27\n00:09:26,578 --> 00:09:42,672\n所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的\n\n28\n00:09:43,237 --> 00:10:02,209\n因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,\n\n29\n00:10:05,311 --> 00:10:27,908\n萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分\n\n30\n00:10:28,949 --> 00:10:53,826\n大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員\n\n31\n00:10:55,996 --> 00:11:07,072\n謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8857\t14159\t謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申\n29126\t45063\t這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年\n46104\t70858\t明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有山珍海味明天就不知道會不會吃飽你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個\n71898\t100233\t既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財劃法是相關的不是只有修我們財劃法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修\n101635\t102899\t注釋,有沒有聽到?\n105770\t129599\t有沒有 領導你看 我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多\n132500\t132940\t請教一下次長跟主計長\n150607\t168737\t這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應\n170058\t197287\t那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎\n199077\t217939\t現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?\n219000\t244640\t所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用\n245160\t259895\t所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?\n266742\t274471\t中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外\n286004\t312953\t中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?\n313800\t328844\t至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話\n331389\t346313\t因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助\n346733\t375535\t那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助\n376391\t397739\t少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費\n399039\t418886\t中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?\n424420\t452939\t其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上\n454860\t467046\t對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配\n468391\t488045\t如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億\n489181\t507226\t剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災\n508306\t527726\t有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種\n529568\t537505\t這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎\n541341\t565478\t跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政\n566578\t582672\t所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的\n583237\t602209\t因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,\n605311\t627908\t萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分\n628949\t653826\t大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員\n655996\t667072\t謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申\n這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年\n明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有山珍海味明天就不知道會不會吃飽你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個\n既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財劃法是相關的不是只有修我們財劃法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修\n注釋,有沒有聽到?\n有沒有 領導你看 我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多\n請教一下次長跟主計長\n這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應\n那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎\n現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?\n所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用\n所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?\n中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外\n中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?\n至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話\n因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助\n那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助\n少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費\n中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?\n其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上\n對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配\n如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億\n剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災\n有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種\n這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎\n跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政\n所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的\n因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,\n萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分\n大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員\n謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.857 --> 00:14.159\n謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申\n\n00:29.126 --> 00:45.063\n這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年\n\n00:46.104 --> 01:10.858\n明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有山珍海味明天就不知道會不會吃飽你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個\n\n01:11.898 --> 01:40.233\n既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財劃法是相關的不是只有修我們財劃法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修\n\n01:41.635 --> 01:42.899\n注釋,有沒有聽到?\n\n01:45.770 --> 02:09.599\n有沒有領導你看我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多\n\n02:12.500 --> 02:12.940\n請教一下次長跟主計長\n\n02:30.607 --> 02:48.737\n這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應\n\n02:50.058 --> 03:17.287\n那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎\n\n03:19.077 --> 03:37.939\n現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?\n\n03:39.000 --> 04:04.640\n所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用\n\n04:05.160 --> 04:19.895\n所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?\n\n04:26.742 --> 04:34.471\n中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外\n\n04:46.004 --> 05:12.953\n中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?\n\n05:13.800 --> 05:28.844\n至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話\n\n05:31.389 --> 05:46.313\n因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助\n\n05:46.733 --> 06:15.535\n那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助\n\n06:16.391 --> 06:37.739\n少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費\n\n06:39.039 --> 06:58.886\n中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?\n\n07:04.420 --> 07:32.939\n其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上\n\n07:34.860 --> 07:47.046\n對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配\n\n07:48.391 --> 08:08.045\n如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億\n\n08:09.181 --> 08:27.226\n剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災\n\n08:28.306 --> 08:47.726\n有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種\n\n08:49.568 --> 08:57.505\n這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎\n\n09:01.341 --> 09:25.478\n跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政\n\n09:26.578 --> 09:42.672\n所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的\n\n09:43.237 --> 10:02.209\n因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,\n\n10:05.311 --> 10:27.908\n萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分\n\n10:28.949 --> 10:53.826\n大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員\n\n10:55.996 --> 11:07.072\n謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.857,"end":14.159,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個財政部這個阮次長還有主計處陳主計長阮次長、陳主計長有請委員好好謝謝這個我還是要重申"},{"start":29.126,"end":45.063,"text":"這個我們現在應該要來審這個明年度的114年的這個總運算了那結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄那我剛剛也用了一個比喻啦這個很多的這個地方政府這個明年"},{"start":46.104,"end":70.858,"text":"明天的飯米飯在哪裡都還不知道然後呢這個我們在野黨的許諾就是說只要採訪法通過了未來一定有山珍海味明天就不知道會不會吃飽你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家這對於很多這個地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的所以我還是希望重申第一個"},{"start":71.898,"end":100.233,"text":"既然這個錢跟權要一併來討論我沒有講說內政部來的人層次太低那都是主席在講的我是說希望未來在討論這個事權的時候地方制度法非常重要所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來因為這個是跟地方制度法跟財劃法是相關的不是只有修我們財劃法然後這個地方制度法都沒有在修"},{"start":101.635,"end":102.899,"text":"注釋,有沒有聽到?"},{"start":105.77,"end":129.599,"text":"有沒有 領導你看 我都沒有就是說下次就是討論的時候公聽會要把這個有關這個地方制度法我已經排過一次了我可以再排一下我們直接我們不能一直在虛幻當中我們要往前推進我們把公聽會當中虛幻公聽會我們已經排過了我們已經聽過很多意見專家學的意見我們聽很多"},{"start":132.5,"end":132.94,"text":"請教一下次長跟主計長"},{"start":150.607,"end":168.737,"text":"這個如果按照國民黨的版本修法之後中央的稅率會大幅減少大概4,080億然後為了嚴守財政紀律中央的舉債也不應該再增加所以只能同時縮短稅出的規模來做因應"},{"start":170.058,"end":197.287,"text":"那如果說這個政業黨要了這麼多錢說這個要回到這個地方那我先請教一下對於中央的影響會怎麼樣因為有很多是屬於地方在精神之後是屬於這個地方應該付的就中央拿來付了啊剛剛這個蔡議員委員有提到啊不管這個是勞健保還有這個老農津貼那請問一下現在這個是由中央來付的嗎"},{"start":199.077,"end":217.939,"text":"現在是由中央來負擔,對。好,那如果未來按照國民黨的版本一修,修到這個4000多位都讓這個中央,這個都讓地方政府拿去用了,那未來呢?屬於中央的部分,那剛我提到說這個建保的部分啊,有關這個老農津貼的部分,未來勒?"},{"start":219,"end":244.64,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是剛才我也提到就是我們明年的總預算就是3兆1嘛3.1兆嘛那現在如果是按照國民黨版國民黨版這樣子就等於是增加4出4080億的話那我們中央還要額外補給它是9492億所以換句話說中央只剩下3600多億可以用"},{"start":245.16,"end":259.895,"text":"所以我還要再繼續補嗎?我的意思是說那有一些是跟權同意嗎?那有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊所以一定要考慮到事權就是跟這個權權要同時考慮了我剛舉那個兩個這個經費的話那未來勒還是中央出嗎?"},{"start":266.742,"end":274.471,"text":"中央的財政韌性就受到影響了,你被挖走了4千億,那你還要再撥補這麼多進去,那除了這個我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外"},{"start":286.004,"end":312.953,"text":"中央有很多的計劃比如說這個擴大住金補貼興拜社宅的專案計劃有400億那未來勒?這400億還是中央出嗎?全部都中央出嗎?這些都受到影響那必須要去刪減刪減才有辦法符合這個規範這樣子好那比如說這個有關這個社宅400億大概會刪減到多少勒?"},{"start":313.8,"end":328.844,"text":"至少要三減三成至少三減三成那所以啊至少三減三成那地方政府到底拿的會比修法錢多還是修法錢少我說就是就這個社宅專案補助來講的話"},{"start":331.389,"end":346.313,"text":"因為現在就是說涉財每一個縣市都不一樣所以必須要每一個縣市去做精算那現在就是說像計劃型它比較著重在直轄市那一般縣市補助它比較著重在對縣市的一個補助"},{"start":346.733,"end":375.535,"text":"那現在就是說縣市它統籌分配稅款它增加了4080但是它如果又要求一般縣市補助縣市的部分維持不動那這個部分對中央影響就很大因為為什麼縣市的財源又再加上double所以變成是說這樣的往上堆高可是這樣對中央影響真的很大中央就會預算抽邊不出來以上好啦你看這個設宅的專案計畫中央有補助"},{"start":376.391,"end":397.739,"text":"少子化對策的方案中央補助290億然後呢這個還有關於什麼這個地方的這個像我們自己在新北的這個軌道建設軌道建設這個本來有特別預算那就特別預算在明年結束之後未來的這個有關於這個軌道建設的經費"},{"start":399.039,"end":418.886,"text":"中央還要出嗎?還是就是地方像我這個新北現在每年可以跟中央來要這個軌道的預算那如果未來這個4千多億都回歸到這個地方的話那現在比如說像新北、台北、台中、高雄要蓋這些軌道建設要蓋這些捷運的話這些錢誰來出?"},{"start":424.42,"end":452.939,"text":"其實在前瞻計畫裡面軌道建設方面的部分有其實就是總共前瞻計畫還有4700多億還沒編那裡面軌道建設將近2900多億那這個部分是屬於縣市的部分那這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2911億這個部分也是跟縣市有關係這個部分按照道理都應該要刪減以上"},{"start":454.86,"end":467.046,"text":"對阿,就是我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛對阿,那如果被這個按照這個修法之後大概中央剩下多少預算可以來做調整分配"},{"start":468.391,"end":488.045,"text":"如果剛剛講的我們3兆1去扣掉我們一般性法律義務的部分是1兆8那我們大概剩下1兆2左右那1兆2左右如果我要扣9千億來給那個縣市的話那我只剩下3千多億剩下3千多億"},{"start":489.181,"end":507.226,"text":"剩下3000多億那我們平常平常在中央有多少可以做調控你現在剩下3000多億差了多少所以對於調控的部分我們就必須要刪減其他所以就對於中央的一個整個業務影響是真的很大以上一個補充對啊就是說我們不希望有什麼天災"},{"start":508.306,"end":527.726,"text":"有什麼戰爭有什麼樣的國際情勢大的轉變對於台灣的影響但是說如果按照這個國民黨的版本那你剩下3000多億萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種這個從這個中國來的或是從其他世界地方來的這一種"},{"start":529.568,"end":537.505,"text":"這個不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣那你中央未來你有辦法去你有這個錢去做相當的相關的應對嗎"},{"start":541.341,"end":565.478,"text":"跟委員報告,如果是只剩下3000多億的話,絕對是一定要再從這個計劃型的補助,或者是其他的補助,還有那些一定要要減扣回來啦要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間啦中央沒有錢吶吼,那我不知道是不是在野黨也認為說吼,他們大概未來也很難在中央執政"},{"start":566.578,"end":582.672,"text":"所以不管說中央到底有沒有錢有沒有財政韌性能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的一些變化但是我認為一個國家尤其像台灣維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的"},{"start":583.237,"end":602.209,"text":"因為我們對岸有一個中國啊,隨時要武力要恐惡台灣啊,軍機軍艦要來擾台啊,我們維持最基本的這個國防預算、國防的經費,但是還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分,那你如果說沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓這個中央來統籌運用的話,"},{"start":605.311,"end":627.908,"text":"萬一發生了什麼事情,那該怎麼辦?那不是只有中央的事情,那是全台灣的事情啊所以說今天審查這個財劃法我再次重申這個錢跟權要一起來討論那當然也有這個財政部要加油的地方你們跟這個地方政府關於水平分配的這部分"},{"start":628.949,"end":653.826,"text":"大家再來做討論有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識但是有這麼多有歧義的地方不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意的那我覺得這部分的話再來做討論但是我還是認為說如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本的財政韌性的話修法修下去對台灣不會更好是謝謝委員"},{"start":655.996,"end":667.072,"text":"謝謝李昆城委員喔那你不要拖罵賴總統當立委的時候一直要修地我是說賴總統當立委一直是要說可以修財化法嘛"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我們請財政部阮次長還有主計處陳主計長。"],["主席：阮次長、陳主計長，有請。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。我還是要重申，我們現在應該要來審明年度（114年）的總預算，結果我們還是在這邊討論財劃法要怎麼弄。我剛剛也用了一個比喻，很多地方政府明年、明天的飯、米飯在哪裡都還不知道，然後我們在野黨許諾說只要財劃法通過了，未來一定有山珍海味，明天都不知道能不能吃飽了，你就說我們之後一定會有山珍海味給大家，這對於很多地方政府來講都是非常不切實際的。所以我還是重申，第一個，既然錢跟權要一併來討論，我沒有說內政部來的人層次太低，那都是主席在講的，我是說希望未來在討論事權的時候，地方制度法非常重要，所以希望內政部部長能夠一起過來，因為地方制度法是跟財劃法相關的，不是只有修我們財劃法，然後地方制度法都沒有在修。主席有沒有聽到？你看我都沒有……就是說下次討論的時候，公聽會要把有關地方制度法……"],["主席：公聽會賴召委會排啦，你們黨團會排。"],["李委員坤城：對啦，賴召委會排，希望……"],["主席：我已經排過一次了，羅召委也排過……"],["李委員坤城：還可以再排啊！"],["主席：我們不能一直在虛幻當中，我們要往前……"],["李委員坤城：怎麼會把公聽會當作虛幻？"],["主席：沒有，公聽會我們已經排過了，我們已經聽過很多意見……"],["李委員坤城：公聽會有很多的學者來……"],["主席：專家學者的意見我們聽很多，賴召委要排我沒有意見……"],["李委員坤城：學者講話怎麼把它當作虛幻？"],["主席：我們要聽委員的意見，希望委員多多發表。"],["李委員坤城：學者講話……"],["主席：進入逐條討論，委員要充分發表意見，你也來聽聽官員的意見吧！"],["李委員坤城：大部分的學者都表示事權要來統一啊……"],["主席：好，你來聽聽官員……"],["李委員坤城：這是我的時間。我要請教一下次長跟主計長，如果按照國民黨的版本，修法之後中央的歲入會大幅減少大概4,080億，然後為了嚴守財政紀律，中央的舉債也不應該再增加，所以只能同額縮短歲出的規模來因應，好啦！如果在野黨要了這麼多錢說要回到地方，那我先請教一下，對於中央的影響會怎麼樣？因為有很多在精省之後是屬於地方應該付的，結果中央拿來付了。剛剛蔡易餘委員也有提到，不管是勞健保還有老農津貼，請問一下，現在這個是由中央來付的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：現在是由中央來負擔。"],["李委員坤城：如果按照國民黨的版本一修修到四千多億都讓地方政府拿去用了，未來屬於中央的部分，剛剛我提到勞健保的部分、有關老農津貼的部分呢？"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，剛才我也提到，我們明年的總預算是3.1兆，如果是按照國民黨版，等於增加釋出4,080億的話，那中央還要額外補給它9,492億，換句話說中央只剩下三千六百多億可以用……"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["阮次長清華：這根本就沒辦法支應……"],["李委員坤城：所以還要再繼續補嗎？我的意思是說，事跟權統一嘛，有一些就是讓地方自己去出了啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，所以一定要考慮到事權，就是錢權要同時考慮，不然……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以我剛才舉那兩個經費的話，那未來呢？還是中央出嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是啊，所以將來一定錢跟權要同時來考慮。"],["李委員坤城：這樣中央的財政韌性就受到影響啦！你被挖走了4,000億，你還要再撥補這麼多進去！那我再問你，除了我剛才舉的那兩點有受到影響之外，中央有很多的計畫，比如擴大租金補貼、興辦社宅的專案計畫有400億，那未來呢？這400億還是中央出嗎？全部都由中央出嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這些都受到影響，必須要去刪減，刪減才有辦法符合這個規範。"],["李委員坤城：好，那比如說有關社宅，400億大概會刪減到多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：至少要三成，刪減三成。"],["李委員坤城：至少刪減三成？那地方政府到底會拿得比修法前多還是比修法前少？我說就社宅的專案補助來講的話。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為現在社宅每一個縣市都不一樣，所以必須要每一個縣市去精算。現在像計畫型比較著重在直轄市，一般縣市補助比較著重在對縣市的補助，如果縣市統籌分配稅款增加了4,080億，但是又要求補助縣市的部分維持不動，那這個部分對中央影響就很大，為什麼？等於縣市的財源又再加上……double，所以變成這樣往上堆高，可是這樣對中央影響真的很大，中央就會籌編不出預算，以上。"],["李委員坤城：好了啊！你看，社宅的專案計畫，中央有補助；少子化對策方案，中央補助了290億。然後還有關於地方的，像我們新北的軌道建設，軌道建設本來有特別預算，那特別預算在明年結束之後，未來有關於軌道建設的經費，中央還要出嗎？還是就是地方？像新北，現在每年可以跟中央來要軌道的預算，如果未來這個四千多億都回歸到地方的話，現在比如像新北、臺北、臺中、高雄也要蓋這一些軌道建設、要蓋這些捷運的話，這些錢誰來出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實在前瞻計畫裡面，軌道建設的部分，前瞻計畫總共還有四千七百多億還沒編，裡面的軌道建設將近兩千九百多億，這是屬於縣市的部分，這個部分連同我們的計畫型補助，因為114年的計畫型補助大概有2,911億，這個部分也是跟縣市有關係，按照道理都應該要刪減，以上。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們沒辦法付到那麼多了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒辦法。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！如果按照這樣修法之後，中央大概剩下多少預算可以來調整分配？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果依剛剛講的，三兆一扣掉一般性法律義務的一兆八，大概剩下一兆二左右，一兆二左右如果要扣9,000億來給縣市的話，只剩下三千多億。"],["李委員坤城：剩下三千多億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["李委員坤城：那平常在中央有多少可以調控？你們現在剩下三千多億，還差了多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這些調控的部分，我們就必須要刪減其他的，所以對於中央整個業務的影響真的很大，以上補充。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們不希望有什麼天災、有什麼戰爭、有什麼樣的國際情勢等大的轉變影響到臺灣，但是如果按照國民黨的版本只剩下三千多億，萬一又再來一個像COVID-19這一種從中國來的或是從世界其他地方來的，這一種不知道算是人禍還是怎麼樣，中央未來有辦法、有這個錢去做相關的應對嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，如果只剩下三千多億的話，絕對是一定要再從計畫型的補助或者是其他的補助，扣回來，要不然中央真的是沒有施政的空間。"],["李委員坤城：中央沒有錢，我不知道是不是在野黨也認為他們大概未來也很難在中央執政，所以他們不管中央到底有沒有錢、有沒有財政韌性，能夠去應付一些國內外情勢的變化。但是我認為一個國家，尤其像臺灣，維持基本的財政韌性是相當重要的，因為我們對岸有一個中國，隨時要武力恐嚇臺灣，派軍機、軍艦來擾臺，我們維持最基本的國防預算、國防經費，還有其他要強調社會韌性的部分，如果沒有這一些基本的經費能夠讓中央來統籌運用的話，萬一發生什麼事情，那該怎麼辦？那不是只有中央的事情，那是全臺灣的事情啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以今天審查財劃法，我再次重申，這個錢跟權要一起來討論，當然也有財政部要加油的地方，你們跟地方政府關於水平分配的部分，大家再來討論，有共識的地方就繼續再來凝聚共識，但是有這麼多有歧異的地方，不是每個縣市政府都能夠滿意，我覺得這部分再來討論，但是我還是認為，如果沒有辦法維持中央政府基本財政韌性的話，修法修下去，對臺灣不會更好。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員，你不要偷罵賴總統，他當立委的時候也一直要修……"],["李委員坤城：主席，你不要再評論了，好不好？"],["主席：我是說賴總統當立委時一直說可以修財劃法，他還不是一樣執政了嘛！我可以發表，我保持……這是我的看法，不等於你的看法。"],["李委員坤城：你不能特別扭曲我的話啊！"],["主席：我沒有扭曲你的話。"],["李委員坤城：主席評論又再來扭曲。"],["主席：主席當然可以評論，不要製造噪音……"],["李委員坤城：主席評論……"],["主席：主席可以……議事中立是議事程序的中立，不是表示我不能說話，好嗎？你們要去了解什麼叫議事中立。"],["李委員坤城：每個委員講的話你也要打分數嗎？"],["主席：我沒有打分數。","接著請賴士葆委員。"],["李委員坤城：那是不是每個委員講完話你都要……"],["主席：我可以有我的意見嘛！議事中立不表示不能說話，大家沒有當過主席，回去小學上課。"],["郭委員國文：你有本事就當韓國瑜啦！"],["主席：議事中立是指程序，每個人都有程序可以走。"],["李委員坤城：但也不能扭曲委員的話。"],["主席：好，還有，COVID-19相關預算是舉債的，大家要了解一下，不要說錯。","請賴士葆委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}