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{\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 378.57, \"end\": 378.91, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 378.91, \"end\": 379.03, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 379.03, \"end\": 379.17, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 379.17, \"end\": 379.351, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 379.351, \"end\": 380.352, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"綁\"}, {\"word\": \"磚\"}, {\"word\": \"腳\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.352, \"end\": 380.893, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 380.893, \"end\": 381.253, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 381.253, \"end\": 381.493, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"皆\", \"start\": 381.493, \"end\": 381.774, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 381.774, \"end\": 382.074, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 382.074, \"end\": 382.194, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 382.194, \"end\": 382.214, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 382.975, \"end\": 394.908, \"text\": \"對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 382.975, \"end\": 384.096, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 384.096, \"end\": 384.257, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 384.257, \"end\": 384.437, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 384.437, \"end\": 384.577, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 384.577, \"end\": 384.817, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 384.817, \"end\": 384.997, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 384.997, \"end\": 385.158, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 385.158, \"end\": 385.398, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 385.398, \"end\": 385.678, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 385.678, \"end\": 386.039, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 386.039, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 638.979, \"end\": 639.819, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 639.819, \"end\": 639.959, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 639.959, \"end\": 640.14, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 640.14, \"end\": 640.16, \"score\": 0.365}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"郭\", \"start\": 642.202, \"end\": 642.422, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 642.422, \"end\": 642.663, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 642.663, \"end\": 643.444, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 643.444, \"end\": 643.965, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 643.965, \"end\": 644.125, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 644.125, \"end\": 645.427, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, 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\"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 651.358, \"end\": 651.738, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 651.738, \"end\": 651.939, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 651.939, \"end\": 652.039, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 652.039, \"end\": 652.119, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.119, \"end\": 652.139, \"score\": 0.982}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,530 --> 00:00:14,525\n來讓郭委員講完齁讓大家休息吃飯讓郭委員休息吃飯再繼續齁好謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:22,031 --> 00:00:44,164\n市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊\n\n3\n00:00:45,339 --> 00:01:11,606\n倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊\n\n4\n00:01:12,945 --> 00:01:39,316\n預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!\n\n5\n00:01:40,616 --> 00:01:54,934\n主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性\n\n6\n00:01:55,635 --> 00:02:11,045\n你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦\n\n7\n00:02:18,531 --> 00:02:29,971\n你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的\n\n8\n00:02:31,277 --> 00:03:00,016\n是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛\n\n9\n00:03:01,138 --> 00:03:09,303\n啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般\n\n10\n00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:36,569\n一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!\n\n11\n00:03:39,331 --> 00:03:57,908\n連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?\n\n12\n00:03:58,849 --> 00:04:26,754\n這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?\n\n13\n00:04:28,134 --> 00:04:56,526\n地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭\n\n14\n00:04:57,146 --> 00:05:24,986\n賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣\n\n15\n00:05:27,944 --> 00:05:33,467\n主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:52,777 --> 00:06:04,144\n這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對\n\n17\n00:06:05,714 --> 00:06:22,214\n靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎\n\n18\n00:06:22,975 --> 00:06:34,908\n對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對\n\n19\n00:06:41,328 --> 00:07:03,634\n對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位\n\n20\n00:07:06,837 --> 00:07:32,227\n你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!\n\n21\n00:07:33,127 --> 00:07:59,946\n所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?\n\n22\n00:08:01,187 --> 00:08:15,283\n對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能\n\n23\n00:08:18,034 --> 00:08:40,182\n我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?\n\n24\n00:08:42,503 --> 00:09:09,003\n有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?\n\n25\n00:09:11,843 --> 00:09:16,077\n那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛\n\n26\n00:09:18,622 --> 00:09:45,634\n總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?\n\n27\n00:09:47,128 --> 00:09:48,628\n你會安心嗎?\n\n28\n00:09:48,628 --> 00:10:12,975\n對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作\n\n29\n00:10:15,368 --> 00:10:40,160\n而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。\n\n30\n00:10:42,202 --> 00:10:52,139\n謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n530\t14525\t來讓郭委員講完齁讓大家休息吃飯讓郭委員休息吃飯再繼續齁好 謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好\n22031\t44164\t市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊\n45339\t71606\t倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊\n72945\t99316\t預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!\n100616\t114934\t主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性\n115635\t131045\t你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦\n138531\t149971\t你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的\n151277\t180016\t是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛\n181138\t189303\t啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般\n190199\t216569\t一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!\n219331\t237908\t連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?\n238849\t266754\t這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?\n268134\t296526\t地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭\n297146\t324986\t賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣\n327944\t333467\t主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?\n352777\t364144\t這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對\n365714\t382214\t靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎\n382975\t394908\t對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對\n401328\t423634\t對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位\n426837\t452227\t你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!\n453127\t479946\t所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?\n481187\t495283\t對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能\n498034\t520182\t我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?\n522503\t549003\t有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?\n551843\t556077\t那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛\n558622\t585634\t總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?\n587128\t588628\t你會安心嗎?\n588628\t612975\t對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作\n615368\t640160\t而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。\n642202\t652139\t謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的\n","txt":"來讓郭委員講完齁讓大家休息吃飯讓郭委員休息吃飯再繼續齁好 謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好\n市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊\n倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊\n預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!\n主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性\n你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦\n你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的\n是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛\n啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般\n一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!\n連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?\n這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?\n地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭\n賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣\n主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?\n這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對\n靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎\n對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對\n對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位\n你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!\n所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?\n對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能\n我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?\n有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?\n那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛\n總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?\n你會安心嗎?\n對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作\n而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。\n謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.530 --> 00:14.525\n來讓郭委員講完齁讓大家休息吃飯讓郭委員休息吃飯再繼續齁好謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好\n\n00:22.031 --> 00:44.164\n市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊\n\n00:45.339 --> 01:11.606\n倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊\n\n01:12.945 --> 01:39.316\n預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!\n\n01:40.616 --> 01:54.934\n主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性\n\n01:55.635 --> 02:11.045\n你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦\n\n02:18.531 --> 02:29.971\n你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的\n\n02:31.277 --> 03:00.016\n是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛\n\n03:01.138 --> 03:09.303\n啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般\n\n03:10.199 --> 03:36.569\n一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!\n\n03:39.331 --> 03:57.908\n連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?\n\n03:58.849 --> 04:26.754\n這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?\n\n04:28.134 --> 04:56.526\n地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭\n\n04:57.146 --> 05:24.986\n賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣\n\n05:27.944 --> 05:33.467\n主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?\n\n05:52.777 --> 06:04.144\n這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對\n\n06:05.714 --> 06:22.214\n靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎\n\n06:22.975 --> 06:34.908\n對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對\n\n06:41.328 --> 07:03.634\n對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位\n\n07:06.837 --> 07:32.227\n你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!\n\n07:33.127 --> 07:59.946\n所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?\n\n08:01.187 --> 08:15.283\n對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能\n\n08:18.034 --> 08:40.182\n我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?\n\n08:42.503 --> 09:09.003\n有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?\n\n09:11.843 --> 09:16.077\n那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛\n\n09:18.622 --> 09:45.634\n總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?\n\n09:47.128 --> 09:48.628\n你會安心嗎?\n\n09:48.628 --> 10:12.975\n對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作\n\n10:15.368 --> 10:40.160\n而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。\n\n10:42.202 --> 10:52.139\n謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.53,"end":14.525,"text":"來讓郭委員講完齁讓大家休息吃飯讓郭委員休息吃飯再繼續齁好 謝謝主席你這樣才覺得本席表示滿意啦但是對於剛剛賴委員的講法本席難以接受那個請次長跟主席長次長齁陳主席長委員好"},{"start":22.031,"end":44.164,"text":"市長好,市長你剛剛回答那麼多本席就叫你一下剛剛台北市六都的做一些的比較不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助他們算那麼多,那我就問你一點嘛六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都?請回答目前大概最好的應該是台北市啦最差的是哪一都?應該是高雄啊"},{"start":45.339,"end":71.606,"text":"倒數第二名了咧倒數第二名的話可能是...可能我要再查一下,可能應該是新北啦我跟你講啦,自有財源比較多的應該是台北市沒有錯啦已經這麼有錢了,還要更多的錢過去長期以來台灣就是南北失衡,把錢都集中在台北南部失衡的結果,現在南部沒有錢,多一點錢也是剛好一點啊"},{"start":72.945,"end":99.316,"text":"預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎?主席長你再看一次自由財源是最後一名是高雄還是台南?台南嘛!對嘛!所以台南最差所以當然補助最多啦!不對嗎?誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛!阿不然台北市的話我們來執政看看!我們執政我跟你講一樣不會最多,一樣是最少!因為你們不是看顏色你是看自由財源對不對?市長!"},{"start":100.616,"end":114.934,"text":"主席長是不是?是是是你們要回答這個問題只有財源都沒有回答讓他們在後面練內行人講外行話講了10分鐘他故意就要染藍染綠而忽略了你們文官的中立性"},{"start":115.635,"end":131.045,"text":"你要自我辯護嘛明明是以自我裁員作為依據嘛這要講清楚嘛剛剛還有提到說好幾個藍營的立委說什麼就變成皇帝恩己制我跟你講如果按照他們的版本啊不論是5747億或變成4080億或變成所謂的3208億都是在強化這個恩己制啦"},{"start":138.531,"end":149.971,"text":"你會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府而不想去自有財源的尋找這才是N幾字的內容所以誰造成N幾字的"},{"start":151.277,"end":180.016,"text":"是國民黨的版本嘛拉回來講我們不希望變成一個中央跟地方恩賜之之的關係你看你有去調整啊我請問一下主席長這連續5年來地方政府是不是有順遇目前是都有順遇最近這一年順遇多少648億648億代表我們對他很好嘛另外一個部分也是代表地方政府的執行能力有限嘛"},{"start":181.138,"end":189.303,"text":"啊你再給他那麼好幾千億他有辦法執行嗎?你現在給他就沒有辦法更何況明年增加多少一般"},{"start":190.199,"end":216.569,"text":"一般補助款增加多少?明年一般補助款是多200億嘛!統籌的部分是多650億嘛!對不對?所以對政府就絕對數來說是越來越好啊!問題是他沒有辦法執行嘛!對不對?所以你這個要講清楚你並沒有厚恥薄筆嘛!並沒有嘛!你對地方政府這樣子最重要不是在錢的問題很顯然嘛!"},{"start":219.331,"end":237.908,"text":"連續5年的剩餘就代表不是錢的問題嘛,是執行能力的問題嘛。或者是說要看待地方政府跟中央的關係、府紀關係,本席就請教於您。剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的,是不是單純的修改財政收支法就夠了?是不是地方制度法是不是也要修?"},{"start":238.849,"end":266.754,"text":"這是比較權責的問題,所以他事權要放下也要修改相關的法令對,然後中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度嘛公債法要不要修?公債法的話也會有影響嘛,公債法是信用卡嘛你讓他舉債的空間多,負債的比例就重嘛,不是嗎?還有地方稅法通常要不要修?"},{"start":268.134,"end":296.526,"text":"地方稅法通則的話就是可以增加地方的放稅的來源嘛所以這個地方稅法通則有沒有空間有沒有修法的空間當然有啊也有嘛所以這四個法一併討論才會形成一個中央跟地方的一個良好的一個府紀關係嘛可以達到一個夥伴關係的可能性嘛是不是對不對所以這個很清楚嘛所以我覺得本席就在跟那個賴昭"},{"start":297.146,"end":324.986,"text":"賴昭偉在建議雖然兩個昭偉在聊天沒有重視本席的發言權但是本席必須還說兩個昭偉身負重任建立的不是垂直的分配而已如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係這實在太容易也太廉價也太便宜了啦我講白一點啦而且呢如果是從這個角度來看的話我們是不是應該後面再來開一個公聽會再來做一個比較完整性的討論兩位的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":327.944,"end":333.467,"text":"主委長,沒有錯吧?如何朝向每個地方政府對於整個財源都不予匱乏而來自於別人的這種方式,這是好的嗎?"},{"start":352.777,"end":364.144,"text":"這不是來自於自己你如果說要朝向一個單一體制變成一個聯邦體制的話那很簡單那你要擁有自有財源是不是對不對我不是一直靠中央嘛對不對"},{"start":365.714,"end":382.214,"text":"靠中央的結果剛剛有幾位委員提醒有些地方政府財政紀律好的有的財政紀律差的天差地別不是嗎有的拿去做人情有的拿去綁磚腳的比比皆是不是嗎"},{"start":382.975,"end":394.908,"text":"對不對結果呢你把中央原來要作為全國計畫整體計規劃的這個錢拿去給地方去做人情綁磚腳如果問成這樣子的話那財政紀律還當然有存嘛當然無存嘛對不對"},{"start":401.328,"end":423.634,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這個很嚴重這不是錢計較錢的問題而已這是次長、主席長你們兩位是深負阿維持這個整個財政體制的重責大任阿要極力的捍衛不要客氣如果今天整個這部法案這樣通過的話我跟你講歷史都會記得兩位"},{"start":426.837,"end":452.227,"text":"你們沒有好好捍衛啊!所以怎麼可以讓他們亂圖藍、亂圖綠呢?在那邊圖來圖去呢?不是嗎?是,我跟委員報告,就是基本上我們對財化法基本上就是說我剛剛講的就是要長治久安啦不能只考慮這個垂直的分配啦,一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括市權的分配,這些都要考慮進去啦才會說建立一個比較大家可以接受的一個方案當然啦!當然啦!"},{"start":453.127,"end":479.946,"text":"所以你也不要陷入所謂的垂直跟整個水平分配而已我必須講是要站在一個府紀關係的角度中央跟地方政府府紀關係的角度中地方政府的財政能力而不是讓地方政府只是會越來越厲害而沒有辦法越來越自主,不是嗎?是,了解關鍵是這樣子,阿如果是關鍵這樣子站在整個財政單位的整個思考跟做法就會不一樣嘛你何不陷入陳玉珍委員或者賴世保委員的邏輯當中呢?"},{"start":481.187,"end":495.283,"text":"對不對我們應該現在事實的講說好我如果真的要修財法法我是不是要先思考一下地質法先思考一下地方稅法通則或思考一下公債法這相關牌文的修改來做一個整體的配套措施有沒有可能"},{"start":498.034,"end":520.182,"text":"我們會配合主席總署來努力我們是希望有一個完整的規劃案出席我必須說主席長你也來自於地方嘛,台南市政府嘛你也花多錢嘛以前再沒有錢如果真的有紀律在內心的話你還是可以做出成績不是嗎賴清德市長之所以會變總統跟這個有沒有關聯你認為勒?"},{"start":522.503,"end":549.003,"text":"有沒有關聯?因為我們一向非常遵守財政紀律對!他說市長變總統就是因為他變了遵守財政紀律嘛對不對?在你跟他一起共同這個輔政讓台南市政推動的過程當中你有這樣很深刻的印象嘛不然怎麼台南美術館怎麼來?對不對?有一館還有二館還有會展中心怎麼來?對不對?還有什麼?還有包括圖書館怎麼來?對不對?"},{"start":551.843,"end":556.077,"text":"那時候有許多的經費一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有嘛"},{"start":558.622,"end":585.634,"text":"總共幾億?十幾億對不對?二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎?沒有啊也創造出整個城市的亮點不是嗎?就是說說整個市在人為的情況底下還有紀律作為一個基準的情況底下他一樣有辦法做出一個亮麗的成績可是就相對於東部的某個縣市的部分呢你錢再給他再多連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花了你再給他錢你會安心嗎?"},{"start":587.128,"end":588.628,"text":"你會安心嗎?"},{"start":588.628,"end":612.975,"text":"對不對這是基本上所以我們去處理這一個整個財政收支劃分法的過程當中優先思考的就是要看財政紀律優先思考的是整個全國的一個財政的規劃這個非常重要所以中央政府不應該任何透過一個法案而予以癱瘓而無法運作"},{"start":615.368,"end":640.16,"text":"而整個財政的紀律還有包括這一個體系也不應該任何一個法案而一一顛覆掉。你們回去好好想一下,私底下再跟陳昀晨那個早委溝通一下,我相信他是相對明理的人。他中文程度也不差,所以你跟他溝通他一定會理解。費一下心,謝謝。"},{"start":642.202,"end":652.139,"text":"謝謝郭國文委員我們賴清德總統當市長的時候在財政區下把財政事務做這麼好我想我們這個法就算修正他當總統也可以把國家自己的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時10分）謝謝主席，你這樣的裁決本席表示滿意。但對於剛剛賴委員的講法，本席難以接受。請次長跟主計長。"],["主席：請次長、陳主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長好。次長，你剛剛回答那麼多，本席就教你一下。剛剛就臺北市、六都所做的比較，不論是專案補助、一般補助、統籌分配款的補助，他們算了那麼多。我就問你一點，六都當中自有財源最好的是哪一都？請回答。"],["阮次長清華：目前最好的應該是臺北市。"],["郭委員國文：最差的是哪一都？"],["阮次長清華：應該是高雄。"],["郭委員國文：倒數第二名的呢？"],["阮次長清華：倒數第二名的話可能我要再查一下，應該是新北。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，自有財源比較多的應該是臺北市沒有錯啦！已經這麼有錢了，還要要更多的錢！過去長期以來，臺灣就是南北失衡，把錢都集中在臺北，而南北失衡的結果就是現在南部沒有錢，所以多一點錢也是剛好一點而已。預算不是要平衡地方發展嗎？主計長，你再看一次，自有財源最後一名是高雄還是臺南？"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺南。"],["郭委員國文：臺南嘛！對嘛！就是臺南最差，所以補助當然最多，不對嗎？誰在做政治操作很清楚嘛！不然臺北市換我們來執政看看！但就算換我們執政，我跟你講，一樣，不會最多，一樣是最少！因為你們不是看顏色，而是看自有財源，對不對？次長、主計長，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：你們要回答這個問題！自有財源都沒有回答，讓他們在那邊亂講，內行人講外行話講了10分鐘，就要故意染藍染綠，忽略你們文官的中立性，你要自我辯護啊！"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：明明是以自有財源作為依據，這個要講清楚。","剛剛還有好幾個藍營立委說什麼會變成皇帝恩給制，我跟你講，如果按照他們的版本，不論是5,747億或4,080億，或變成所謂的3,208億，都是在強化這個恩給制，會讓地方政府更加依賴中央政府，而不想去尋找自有財源，這才是恩給制的內容，也才會造成恩給制，這就是國民黨的版本。拉回來講，我們不希望中央跟地方變成恩給制的關係，所以你們有去調整啊。我請問一下主計長，連續五年來，地方政府是不是有賸餘？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，目前都有賸餘。"],["郭委員國文：最近這一年賸餘多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：648億。"],["郭委員國文：648億，代表我們對他很好。另外，這也代表地方政府的執行能力有限，再給他好幾千億，他有辦法執行嗎？現在給他，他就沒有辦法了，更何況明年增加多少？一般補助款增加多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：連同統籌是……"],["郭委員國文：明年一般補助款多200億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，190億……"],["郭委員國文：統籌的部分多650億嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以將近900億。"],["郭委員國文：對地方政府來說，絕對數越來越好，問題是他沒有辦法執行，對不對？所以這個要講清楚，並沒有厚此薄彼，並沒有！其實地方政府最重要的問題不是在錢，連續五年的賸餘就代表顯然不是錢的問題，是執行能力的問題，或者要看地方政府跟中央的府際關係。本席就教於您，剛剛本席跟好幾個委員說的，是不是單純修改財政收支劃分法就夠了？地方制度法是不是也要修？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這涉及到權責問題，所以……"],["郭委員國文：事權跟財權是不是要……"],["陳主計長淑姿：事權要下放，也要修改相關法令。"],["郭委員國文：對，中央也應該要用事權跟財權的角度來看嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：公債法要不要修？公債法要不要修？"],["阮次長清華：公債法的話也會……"],["郭委員國文：也有影響嘛！公債法是信用卡，讓他舉債的空間多，負債的比例就重，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：還有，地方稅法通則要不要修？"],["阮次長清華：地方稅法通則可以增加地方創稅的來源……"],["郭委員國文：自有財源的來源嘛……"],["阮次長清華：所以這個也要修……"],["郭委員國文：地方稅法通則有沒有空間、有沒有修法的空間？"],["阮次長清華：當然有啊。"],["郭委員國文：也有嘛！所以這四個法一併討論，才會形成中央跟地方良好的府際關係，可以達到夥伴關係的可能性，是不是？對不對？所以這是很清楚的。本席有跟賴召委建議，雖然兩個召委在聊天，沒有重視本席的發言權，但本席還是必須說：兩個召委身負重任，因為建立的不是垂直分配而已，如果垂直分配可以解決中央跟地方政府的關係，講白一點，實在太容易、太廉價也太便宜了。如果從這個角度來看，後面我們是不是應該再開公聽會，再來做一個比較完整性的討論？兩位的看法怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：針對負擔事項的部分，是不是可以召開相關的公聽會？"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯！站在整個中央體制下，我們現在是屬於單一體制，主計長，沒有錯吧？但如果每個地方政府的財源都不虞匱乏，且是來自於別人的這種方式，這是好的嗎？又不是來自於自己？如果把單一體制變成聯邦體制的話，很簡單，就是擁有自有財源，是不是？對不對？而不是一直靠中央，對不對？靠中央的結果，剛剛有幾位委員提醒，有的地方政府財政紀律好，有的財政紀律差，天差地別啊！不是嗎？有的拿去做人情，有的拿去綁樁腳，比比皆是，不是嗎？對不對？結果你把中央原來要作為全國計畫、整體規劃的錢拿給地方去做人情、綁樁腳……如果變成這樣的話，財政紀律還存在嗎？當然是蕩然無存，對不對？對不對？我覺得這點很嚴重，這不是計較錢的問題而已。次長、主計長，兩位身負維持財政體制的重責大任，要極力捍衛，不要客氣！如果今天這部法案這樣通過的話，我跟你講，歷史會記得兩位，因為你們沒有好好捍衛啊！怎麼可以讓他亂塗，塗藍、塗綠，在那邊塗來塗去，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，我跟委員報告，我剛才講過，財劃法基本上就是要長治久安，不能只考慮垂直分配，一定要考慮到包括水平的、包括事權的分配，這些都要考慮進去……"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["阮次長清華：這樣才能建立一個大家比較可以接受的方案。"],["郭委員國文：當然、當然。所以你也不要陷入垂直跟水平分配裡……"],["阮次長清華：還有事權的分配問題……"],["郭委員國文：必須站在府際關係的角度，中央跟地方政府府際關係的角度，以及地方政府的財政能力來看，而不是讓地方政府只會越來越厲害，而沒有辦法越來越自主，不是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：關鍵是這樣子。如果關鍵是這樣子，那麼財政單位的思考跟作法就會不一樣，怎麼會陷入陳玉珍委員或賴士葆委員的邏輯當中，對不對？我們現在應該適時的講，如果真的要修財劃法，是不是要先思考一下地制法、先思考一下地方稅法通則、或思考一下公債法相關條文的修改？做一個整體的配套措施，有沒有可能？次長。"],["阮次長清華：我們會配合主計總處來努力。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["阮次長清華：我們希望能有一個完整的規劃案出來。"],["郭委員國文：對。我必須說，主計長也來自地方（臺南市政府），你也持過家。以前再沒有錢，但只要有紀律在內心，還是可以做出成績，不是嗎？賴清德市長之所以會變總統，跟這個有沒有關聯？你認為呢？有沒有關聯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們一向非常遵守財政紀律。"],["郭委員國文：對，他從市長變總統，就是因為他有遵守財政紀律，對不對？在你輔政跟他共同推動臺南市政的過程當中，你有這樣很深刻的印象？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：不然臺南美術館怎麼來的，對不對？有一館，還有二館。還有，會展中心怎麼來的，對不對？還有什麼？圖書館怎麼來的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還有棒球場。"],["郭委員國文：那時候有許多經費，像一開始美術館有用到中央的經費嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有嘛！總共十幾億，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：20億！"],["郭委員國文：二十幾億有用到中央的經費嗎？沒有啊！也創造出整個城市的亮點，不是嗎？在事在人為的情況底下，還有以紀律作為基準的情況底下，他一樣有辦法做出亮麗的成績。相對於東部某個縣市來說，給他再多的錢，甚至連賑災的錢他都可以拿去亂花，你再給他錢，你會安心嗎？對不對？所以在我們處理財政收支劃分法的過程當中，優先思考的就是看財政紀律，優先思考的是全國的整個財政規劃，這個非常重要！所以不應該透過任何一個法案來癱瘓中央政府，使它無法運作！至於整個財政紀律，包括這個體系，也不應該讓任何一個法案來顛覆掉！次長、主計長，你們回去好好想一下，私底下再跟陳玉珍召委溝通一下，我相信他是相對明理的人，他中文程度也不差，所以你跟他溝通，他一定會理解。費一下心，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。我們賴清德總統當市長的時候，他的財政計畫把臺南市做得這麼好，我想就算我們修正這個法，他當總統也可以把國家治理得很好。","就如剛剛所說，我們休息讓大家吃飯，兩點半繼續，謝謝。","休息（12時20分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"],["主席：我們下午的會議兩點半繼續開始，我們繼續開始廣泛討論。鍾佳濱委員也要發言，這邊簽名。","接著我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}