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\"text\": \"自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 591.642, \"end\": 591.783, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 591.783, \"end\": 591.883, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 591.883, \"end\": 592.485, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 592.485, \"end\": 592.765, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 592.765, \"end\": 593.066, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 593.066, \"end\": 593.226, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 593.226, \"end\": 593.347, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 593.347, \"end\": 593.547, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 593.547, \"end\": 593.768, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 593.768, \"end\": 593.928, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 593.928, \"end\": 594.108, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 594.108, \"end\": 594.469, 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00:00:38,867\n市長好我想我延續剛剛那個林淑英委員的這個議題到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間因為我們知道你一定必須要就是兼顧到很多的一個面向等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題\n\n3\n00:00:39,847 --> 00:01:03,217\n因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是預算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是嚴重的\n\n4\n00:01:05,097 --> 00:01:31,383\n會連動,但是因為假定現在修的話應該是最快也是115年才會開始開始調整嘛。對。基本上是這樣。你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛。對。所以不可能114年。然後最快的話也是115年。最快會是115年。那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116。\n\n5\n00:01:34,576 --> 00:01:58,112\n如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對\n\n6\n00:01:59,993 --> 00:02:17,380\n那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財化法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎?對\n\n7\n00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,321\n會不會?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?\n\n8\n00:02:38,397 --> 00:02:38,657\n護主記長護主我請問你\n\n9\n00:02:57,839 --> 00:03:25,857\n如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了\n\n10\n00:03:27,629 --> 00:03:55,358\n我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的\n\n11\n00:03:56,078 --> 00:04:07,626\n那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?\n\n12\n00:04:11,782 --> 00:04:29,932\n大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?\n\n13\n00:04:31,431 --> 00:04:57,060\n我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題\n\n14\n00:04:58,180 --> 00:05:13,445\n所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好,蘭智我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的\n\n15\n00:05:14,625 --> 00:05:34,710\n那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助\n\n16\n00:05:39,791 --> 00:06:01,930\n還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值\n\n17\n00:06:02,811 --> 00:06:18,706\n一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話\n\n18\n00:06:20,347 --> 00:06:41,728\n那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了\n\n19\n00:06:42,288 --> 00:07:10,879\n那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?\n\n20\n00:07:12,133 --> 00:07:14,115\n我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法\n\n21\n00:07:32,774 --> 00:07:57,391\n推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說\n\n22\n00:07:58,712 --> 00:08:10,630\n如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?\n\n23\n00:08:12,863 --> 00:08:35,657\n就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?\n\n24\n00:08:36,840 --> 00:09:04,340\n所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊\n\n25\n00:09:06,081 --> 00:09:20,841\n就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間\n\n26\n00:09:23,143 --> 00:09:50,902\n其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了\n\n27\n00:09:51,642 --> 00:09:57,196\n自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?\n\n28\n00:09:58,849 --> 00:10:21,826\n會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。\n\n29\n00:10:23,627 --> 00:10:43,952\n這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題\n\n30\n00:10:46,309 --> 00:11:05,314\n對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市\n\n31\n00:11:09,415 --> 00:11:37,281\n那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊\n\n32\n00:11:38,641 --> 00:12:01,341\n那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了\n\n33\n00:12:02,262 --> 00:12:20,058\n所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊\n\n34\n00:12:24,262 --> 00:12:45,107\n我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是\n\n35\n00:12:46,387 --> 00:13:08,458\n這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。\n\n36\n00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:11,962\n財政收支劃分法\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t189\t委員好\n12882\t38867\t市長好我想我延續剛剛那個林淑英委員的這個議題到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間因為我們知道你一定必須要就是兼顧到很多的一個面向等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題\n39847\t63217\t因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是預算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是嚴重的\n65097\t91383\t會連動,但是因為假定現在修的話應該是最快也是115年才會開始開始調整嘛。對。基本上是這樣。你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛。對。所以不可能114年。然後最快的話也是115年。最快會是115年。那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116。\n94576\t118112\t如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對\n119993\t137380\t那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財化法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎?對\n138800\t140321\t會不會?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?\n158397\t158657\t護主記長護主我請問你\n177839\t205857\t如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了\n207629\t235358\t我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的\n236078\t247626\t那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?\n251782\t269932\t大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?\n271431\t297060\t我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題\n298180\t313445\t所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好,蘭智我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的\n314625\t334710\t那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助\n339791\t361930\t還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值\n362811\t378706\t一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話\n380347\t401728\t那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了\n402288\t430879\t那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?\n432133\t434115\t我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法\n452774\t477391\t推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說\n478712\t490630\t如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?\n492863\t515657\t就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?\n516840\t544340\t所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊\n546081\t560841\t就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間\n563143\t590902\t其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了\n591642\t597196\t自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?\n598849\t621826\t會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。\n623627\t643952\t這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題\n646309\t665314\t對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市\n669415\t697281\t那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊\n698641\t721341\t那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了\n722262\t740058\t所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊\n744262\t765107\t我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是\n766387\t788458\t這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。\n790960\t791962\t財政收支劃分法\n","txt":"委員好\n市長好我想我延續剛剛那個林淑英委員的這個議題到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間因為我們知道你一定必須要就是兼顧到很多的一個面向等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題\n因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是預算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是嚴重的\n會連動,但是因為假定現在修的話應該是最快也是115年才會開始開始調整嘛。對。基本上是這樣。你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛。對。所以不可能114年。然後最快的話也是115年。最快會是115年。那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116。\n如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對\n那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財化法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎?對\n會不會?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?\n護主記長護主我請問你\n如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了\n我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的\n那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?\n大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?\n我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題\n所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好,蘭智我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的\n那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助\n還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值\n一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話\n那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了\n那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?\n我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法\n推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說\n如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?\n就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?\n所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊\n就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間\n其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了\n自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?\n會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。\n這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題\n對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市\n那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊\n那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了\n所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊\n我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是\n這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。\n財政收支劃分法\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.189\n委員好\n\n00:12.882 --> 00:38.867\n市長好我想我延續剛剛那個林淑英委員的這個議題到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間因為我們知道你一定必須要就是兼顧到很多的一個面向等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題\n\n00:39.847 --> 01:03.217\n因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是預算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是嚴重的\n\n01:05.097 --> 01:31.383\n會連動,但是因為假定現在修的話應該是最快也是115年才會開始開始調整嘛。對。基本上是這樣。你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛。對。所以不可能114年。然後最快的話也是115年。最快會是115年。那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116。\n\n01:34.576 --> 01:58.112\n如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對\n\n01:59.993 --> 02:17.380\n那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財化法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎?對\n\n02:18.800 --> 02:20.321\n會不會?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?\n\n02:38.397 --> 02:38.657\n護主記長護主我請問你\n\n02:57.839 --> 03:25.857\n如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了\n\n03:27.629 --> 03:55.358\n我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的\n\n03:56.078 --> 04:07.626\n那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?\n\n04:11.782 --> 04:29.932\n大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?\n\n04:31.431 --> 04:57.060\n我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題\n\n04:58.180 --> 05:13.445\n所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好,蘭智我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的\n\n05:14.625 --> 05:34.710\n那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助\n\n05:39.791 --> 06:01.930\n還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值\n\n06:02.811 --> 06:18.706\n一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話\n\n06:20.347 --> 06:41.728\n那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了\n\n06:42.288 --> 07:10.879\n那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?\n\n07:12.133 --> 07:14.115\n我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法\n\n07:32.774 --> 07:57.391\n推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說\n\n07:58.712 --> 08:10.630\n如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?\n\n08:12.863 --> 08:35.657\n就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?\n\n08:36.840 --> 09:04.340\n所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊\n\n09:06.081 --> 09:20.841\n就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間\n\n09:23.143 --> 09:50.902\n其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了\n\n09:51.642 --> 09:57.196\n自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?\n\n09:58.849 --> 10:21.826\n會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。\n\n10:23.627 --> 10:43.952\n這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題\n\n10:46.309 --> 11:05.314\n對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市\n\n11:09.415 --> 11:37.281\n那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊\n\n11:38.641 --> 12:01.341\n那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了\n\n12:02.262 --> 12:20.058\n所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊\n\n12:24.262 --> 12:45.107\n我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是\n\n12:46.387 --> 13:08.458\n這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。\n\n13:10.960 --> 13:11.962\n財政收支劃分法\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.189,"text":"委員好"},{"start":12.882,"end":38.867,"text":"市長好我想我延續剛剛那個林淑英委員的這個議題到底就是全台灣23個縣市的一個溝通的時間因為我們知道你一定必須要就是兼顧到很多的一個面向等一下我會有幾個那個就是不管是健保的議題還有就是本期我存在的一些龍水路的這些補助的一個問題"},{"start":39.847,"end":63.217,"text":"因為我很怕就是說在114年我們這個預算在未來會是一個什麼樣的一個走向這個都會影響到我們這個整體來講的話就是預算的問題跟財務法的問題我想其實有沒有關係看起來也是沒有關係看起來也是有關係其實是嚴重的"},{"start":65.097,"end":91.383,"text":"會連動,但是因為假定現在修的話應該是最快也是115年才會開始開始調整嘛。對。基本上是這樣。你認為到了115年才會開始實施還是就是說因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛。對。所以不可能114年。然後最快的話也是115年。最快會是115年。那如果我們做的比較周前的話會是116。"},{"start":94.576,"end":118.112,"text":"如果我們花更多的時間就是說去做比較精密的一個調查的話因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的一個問題啊你那個權你的權重你的事情要誰來做啊那個錢分配了以後事情要誰來做這個非常重要的如果好那個部長我請教你啦次長如果我現在講我的一個老龍津貼對"},{"start":119.993,"end":137.38,"text":"那我的老龍津貼像在台南的老龍津貼他會跟就是彰化的老龍津貼如果這個財化法這樣子劃下去的話他們一樣都是職業都是農人他們會是有一個相同的老龍津貼嗎?對"},{"start":138.8,"end":140.321,"text":"會不會?這個我是不是請主委總處來說明好不好?"},{"start":158.397,"end":158.657,"text":"護主記長護主我請問你"},{"start":177.839,"end":205.857,"text":"如果以就是說一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市一個是直轄市一個是縣轄市那我們可預期就是台南會分得多彰化會分得少是不是這樣子呢這也不一定是這樣算喔因為你財化法的話你這個人口數是佔了一個非常重要的一個基準67%那如果是這樣子的話緩和是台南的農民就不值錢了"},{"start":207.629,"end":235.358,"text":"我可以不可以這樣講?就是說要看最後那個分配是什麼分配所以水平分配就會變得非常重要是啊是啊那你你這個計算的方式的話就是說如果你這是67%是人口的比例啊那如果這樣子水平分配你這樣分配出去了那本來中央在管的時候大家都是一致性的全台灣的農民其實就是即使是離島的農民大家領的都是一樣的"},{"start":236.078,"end":247.626,"text":"那你這個財務法一劃下去的時候其實大概是每一個縣市都不一樣了這個情形會不會發生呢?有可能發生是有可能還是會?還是一定會?"},{"start":251.782,"end":269.932,"text":"大家分得不一樣當然一定會發生所以我們講的說錢我們必須要把它分配是在一個水平還是一個垂直可是相對的你這些事情你要出去你怎麼分配呢?"},{"start":271.431,"end":297.06,"text":"我跟委員報告一下目前的榮保跟勞健保現在是由中央在負擔所以沒有分下去的問題那我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西最主要是因為就比如像國民黨版它因為釋出的金額太大影響中央的施政所以我們勢必就要把有一些支出就要拉回來所以才會扯到勞保跟健保跟榮保的問題"},{"start":298.18,"end":313.445,"text":"所以現在目前就在中央在負擔那這個將來如果動的話就會涉及到修法的問題也就是說好,蘭智我再請教你你已經講得非常清楚了你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的"},{"start":314.625,"end":334.71,"text":"那如果我們的那個財政收支劃分法我們落實下去了以後那現在在就是這幾年我們不要講未來啦這幾年中央重大的一個施政計畫的一個經會編列的情形那你們希望怎麼來因應撥補台電的這一個就我不問台電的這一個啦我問健保財務的一個協助"},{"start":339.791,"end":361.93,"text":"還有最重要就是說我們希望就是在這一個我比較想知道的就是說你這個健保財務那個協助的方式你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的一個支付專案這個會受影響喔還是你提升醫療的智慧化還是罕見疾病的用藥還有醫院的三班輪值"},{"start":362.811,"end":378.706,"text":"一副人員的一個直接的獎勵還有就是三班的那個互併比的一個評比標準這個獎勵也會受影響欸對所以因為跟委員報告因為我們假定按照國民黨版如果是他釋出額外釋出4000多億的話"},{"start":380.347,"end":401.728,"text":"那中央可以用的金費大概只剩下3000多億,所以這個是會影響到中央很多的施政沒有錯,那你幾乎如果這3000多億的話,所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都是推不動嗎?幾乎都會受影響?都是完全攤掉了,那就講說我們...就剩下3000多億而已啊,這個幾乎很多都不能做了"},{"start":402.288,"end":430.879,"text":"那這個高價化更不用講了可是我比較在乎的就是說好那如果像114年他這個生活圈道路交通那個系統的建設計畫我可以這個只有138億那是不是可以優先來做還是我的農田水利跨整億的一個永續發展那個計畫這一個只有50億可不可以就是說提前來做呢?可不可以優先來做呢?"},{"start":432.133,"end":434.115,"text":"我中央只剩下3000多億的情況下其實所有的計劃性補助就已經都沒有辦法"},{"start":452.774,"end":477.391,"text":"推動了那其他的一些相關剛委員所提到的各項的措施其實也都連動會受到影響所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應所以就變成也沒有所謂說可以先做哪一個或幾乎就全面性的受到影響全面性的受到影響那你們有沒有就是說"},{"start":478.712,"end":490.63,"text":"如果是這樣子的一個這個全面性的一個受影響的話你們有沒有想到一些比較那個適合的一個就是可以去補救的那個計劃呢?"},{"start":492.863,"end":515.657,"text":"就是因為他的金額太大了,所以就是說他已經沒有辦法,已經沒有補救的一個空間,就是說他整個我們這一影響到整個政案這個走運算他是沒有辦法編不出來,因為他已經計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。產生嚴重的排擠,就是計畫都編不出來,那該怎麼辦呢?"},{"start":516.84,"end":544.34,"text":"所以我跟委員報告所以這也是我們是說我額外釋出4千多億我當然一定要拉回4千多億嘛那不然中央就是根本很多市政都沒辦法推動嘛國防、社福啦很多完全都不能動所以基本上還是要從地方透過市權的重新分配從地方把它拉回來那另外一個方式就看各黨團願不願意退讓啊"},{"start":546.081,"end":560.841,"text":"就退讓,比如他現在釋出4000多億可不可以他退讓到一定的程度那我們是不是可以有一個比較就不用拉回來那麼多你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的這個可能要再精算一下那你們精算這個要多久的時間"},{"start":563.143,"end":590.902,"text":"其實我們知道這個計算其實時間用的是不多可是問題就是說你跟地方政府的一個溝通其實是最重要的對,最重要的是在這裡尤其是事權的怎麼劃分這都是很麻煩在這裡啦所以我們都知道就是說如果這樣子的一個財劃法的分配顯然看起來地方政府的一個自主性變大了"},{"start":591.642,"end":597.196,"text":"自主性變大了,所以就是說地方的財政的一個支出會不會僵化?"},{"start":598.849,"end":621.826,"text":"會不會怎樣?會不會僵化了?僵化地方的財政。所以有一些,剛才我也跟委員報告,有可能,為什麼呢?因為有一些就分了太多了。分了太多了。分了太多以後他就可能就會亂花了。我想台南是在六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市。"},{"start":623.627,"end":643.952,"text":"這個就是稅出跟稅入其實我們如果就是預算的規模雖然我們比16個縣市還高可是同樣是直轄市我們才只有只有就是台北市的一半那你要講說是我台南比較不努力嗎?不會啊其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的一個問題"},{"start":646.309,"end":665.314,"text":"對不對?那有沒有什麼比較好的方式就是說讓我們覺得是比較公平的就是說指標去調整所以這個是我們在努力的方向因為現在目前國民黨的黨版它67%是用人口來分配那10%就平均分配那就佔了77%啦那36%就給台北市"},{"start":669.415,"end":697.281,"text":"那另外10%才來分配那我是覺得這樣子的話就完全沒有考慮到就是那個就是差短我們就是說那個彌補那個收支差短的問題我們財務法最根本的精神就是彌補優先彌補那個收支差短嘛讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面所以冷視你也提到了一個問題就像說我們台南來講的話我們有一半的人口其實是從事農業啊是啊"},{"start":698.641,"end":721.341,"text":"那你看台積電他所有他的一個那個公司的登記他不是在新竹就在台北可是他很多的工廠是在我這個地方所以就是說他的工廠總登記其實不登記在我的台南我收不到這些稅收啊可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法就是被處罰了"},{"start":722.262,"end":740.058,"text":"所以如果是照目前國民黨團的話真的有可能會變成就是說沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的就是彌補收支差段因為它太重視人口了那台南人口相對比較少所以一定也相對比較吃虧了你這個60幾%的人口的一個比例啊"},{"start":744.262,"end":765.107,"text":"我想這個是一個國家重大的財政問題所以我才說要長治久安就是說這個東西大家一定要好好去思考如果急的話分配以後真的要改就很難我們過去花了20年其實我們也知道啦就是說你還是事緩則嚴就是要慢慢的就是"},{"start":766.387,"end":788.458,"text":"這個漫不是說就不作為啦,還是要有作為啦,因為其實大家也急你知道嗎,大家也急,大家認為就是說這個財化法25年沒有修了,那中間修了5次,其實後來都沒有辦法去實施它,當然它有它的困難在,那我們當然是希望一個比較精準的方式,那再一次謝謝主席,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝委員。"},{"start":790.96,"end":791.962,"text":"財政收支劃分法"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（14時47分）謝謝主席，請阮次長及陳副主計長。"],["主席：請阮次長及陳副主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：次長好。我延續剛剛林楚茵委員的議題，就是全臺灣23個縣市的溝通時間，因為我們知道你必須要兼顧到很多面向……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：等一下我會有幾個議題，不管是健保的議題還是本席存在的農水路補助的問題，因為我很怕114年我們這個預算在未來會是什麼樣的走向，這個都會影響到。整體來講的話，就是預算的問題跟財劃法的問題，我想有沒有關係？看起來也是沒有關係，看起來也是有關係……"],["阮次長清華：就是……"],["賴委員惠員：其實是連動的。"],["阮次長清華：當然會連動，但是因為假定今天修的話，應該最快也是115年才會開始調整嘛！"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：基本上是這樣。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為到了115年才會開始實施，還是就是會……"],["阮次長清華：因為現在114年已經在大院了嘛！"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：所以不可能114年，最快的話也是115年。"],["賴委員惠員：最快會是115年？"],["阮次長清華：最快115年。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們做得比較周全的話，會是116年？"],["阮次長清華：這個……"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們花更多的時間去做比較精密的調查……因為事實上這個不是只有分錢的問題，還有那個權，你的權重，你的事情要誰來做啊！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那個錢分配了以後，事情要由誰來做？這個非常重要的。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我請教你，如果我現在講老農津貼，像在臺南的老農津貼跟彰化的老農津貼，如果財劃法這樣子劃下去的話，他們職業一樣都是農人，他們會有相同的老農津貼嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：會不會？"],["阮次長清華：所以我說老農津貼，因為我剛才講……"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我現在問你的是，臺南跟彰化一樣都是老農津貼，這兩個其實都是農人，他們領的錢會不會像現在是一致性的？"],["阮次長清華：這個我是不是請主計總處來說明，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：好，來，副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，老農津貼目前是一致的，但是如果未來我們下放給地方政府，地方政府獲得的財源比較多以後，它會不會加碼，這存有未來產生不一致的可能。"],["賴委員惠員：好，副座，我請問你，如果一個是直轄市、一個是縣，我們可以預期臺南會分的多，彰化會分的少，是不是這樣子呢？這也不一定是這樣算，因為財劃法，人口數占了一個非常重要的基準，67%，如果是這樣子的話，反而是臺南的農民不值錢了，我可不可以這樣講？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：要看最後是怎麼分配，所以水平分配就會變得非常重要。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊，你這個計算方式的話，這67%是人口的比例，如果是水平分配，你這樣分配出去了，本來中央在管的時候，大家都是一致的，全臺灣的農民，即使是離島的農民，大家領的都是一樣的，你這個財劃法一劃下去的時候，其實大概每一個縣市都不一樣了，這個情形會不會發生呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有可能發生。"],["賴委員惠員：是有可能，還是一定會？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：就是大家分的不一樣，當然一定會發生。"],["賴委員惠員：是嘛，所以我們講的就是，錢我們必須要分配，是水平還是垂直？可是相對的，這些事情你要怎麼分配呢？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告一下，目前農保跟勞健保是由中央在負擔，所以沒有分下去的問題，我們現在為什麼會扯到這三個東西？最主要是，比如像國民黨版，它因為釋出的金額太大，影響中央的施政，我們勢必有一些支出要拉回來，所以才會扯到勞保、健保跟農保的問題，目前這些是中央在負擔，將來如果動的話，就會涉及到修法的問題，也就是說除了……"],["賴委員惠員：好，阮次，我再請教你，你已經講得非常清楚了，你說這些錢其實現在是由中央來分攤的。"],["阮次長清華：是中央在分攤的。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們的財政收支劃分法落實下去了以後，我們不要講未來，就這幾年中央重大的施政計畫經費編列情形，你們希望怎麼來因應？撥補台電的這一個我不問，我要問健保財務的協助，還有最重要的就是，我比較想知道的，就是你這個健保財務協助的方式，你會影響到癌症新藥暫時性的支付專案，這個會受影響喔！還有提升醫療的智慧化、罕見疾病的用藥、醫院的三班輪值夜護人員、醫護人員的直接獎勵，還有三班護病比的評比標準，這個獎勵也會受影響欸！"],["阮次長清華：對，跟委員報告，因為假定按照國民黨版，額外釋出四千多億的話，中央可以用的經費大概只剩下三千多億……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：這個會影響到中央很多的施政，所以剛才……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，如果是三千多億的話，所有軌道建設的計畫幾乎都推不動了。"],["阮次長清華：幾乎都會受影響。"],["賴委員惠員：都會完全癱掉了，就說我們……"],["阮次長清華：就只剩下三千多億而已，幾乎很多都不能做了，所以我們……"],["賴委員惠員：那這個高架化更不用講了，可是我比較在乎的就是，像114年這個生活圈道路交通系統的建設計畫，這個只有138億，是不是可以優先來做？還是我們的農田水利跨域整合永續發展計畫？這個只有50億……"],["阮次長清華：這部分我是不是……"],["賴委員惠員：可不可以提前來做呢？"],["阮次長清華：這是不是請副主計長來說明，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：可不可以優先來做呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，我們現在如果釋放4,000億給地方，它馬上就直接衝擊到我們的歲出，所以剛剛阮次長有說了，在中央只剩下三千多億的情況下，其實所有的計畫型補助就已經沒有辦法推動了，其他的一些剛剛委員所提到的各項相關措施也都會連帶受到影響，所以它就產生嚴重的排擠效應，就變成也沒有所謂可以先做哪一個，幾乎就全面性的……"],["賴委員惠員：就沒有先後的一個問題了。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：全面性的受到影響。"],["賴委員惠員：如果這樣子全面性的受影響，你們有沒有想到一些比較適合的，可以去補救的計畫呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為它的金額太大了，所以已經沒有辦法，已經沒有補救的空間，它影響到整個中央政府總預算，它沒有辦法，編不出來，因為計畫之間都已經產生嚴重的排擠。"],["賴委員惠員：產生嚴重的排擠，計畫都編不出來，那該怎麼辦呢？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，這也是我們說的額外釋出四千多億，當然一定要拉回四千多億，要不然中央根本很多施政都沒辦法推動，國防、社福很多完全都不能動，所以基本上還是要透過事權的重新分配，從地方把它拉回來。另外一個方式，就看各黨團願不願退讓，比如它現在釋出四千多億，可不可以它退讓到一定的程度，這樣我們就不用拉回那麼多。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為退到多少是財政部可以忍耐的？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能要再精算一下。"],["賴委員惠員：你們精算要多久時間？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個跟事權……"],["賴委員惠員：其實我們知道這個精算用的時間是不多，問題是跟地方政府的溝通，這個其實是最重要。"],["阮次長清華：對，最重要是在這裡，尤其事權怎麼劃分，很麻煩是在這裡，如果單純的算很容易。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我們都知道，如果這樣子財劃法的分配，顯然看起來地方政府的自主性變大了，所以地方財政的支出會不會僵化？"],["阮次長清華：會不會怎麼樣？"],["賴委員惠員：會不會僵化了？就是地方的財政。"],["阮次長清華：僵化地方的……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["阮次長清華：所以剛才我也跟委員報告有可能，為什麼呢？因為有一些是分了太多了，分了太多就可能會亂花啦，我直接講白一點。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我想臺南市是六都裡頭財政最弱勢的一個直轄市……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：就是歲出跟歲入，其實我們如果就預算的規模，雖然我們比16個縣市還高，可是同樣是直轄市，我們才只有臺北市的一半，你要講是我臺南比較不努力嗎？不會啊！其實我們都知道這個是人口跟產業結構的問題……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那有沒有什麼比較好的方式，讓我們覺得是比較公平的？"],["阮次長清華：就是指標去調整，所以這個也是我們在努力的方向，因為目前國民黨的黨版，它67%是用人口來分配，10%就平均分配，這樣就占了77%啦！然後3%又給臺北市，另外10%才來分配，我是覺得這樣子完全沒有考慮到差短，我們是說彌補收支差短的問題，我們財劃法最根本的精神就是優先彌補收支差短嘛，讓大家都是在同一個立足點上面……"],["賴委員惠員：所以，阮次也提到了一個問題，就像我們臺南來講，有一半的人口其實是從事農業。"],["阮次長清華：是啊！"],["賴委員惠員：你看台積電所有公司的登記，它不是在新竹就在臺北，可是它很多的工廠是在我這個地方啊！其實它的工廠總登記不是登記在我的臺南，我收不到這些稅收啊，可是我就是要被這一個財政劃分法處罰了。"],["阮次長清華：所以如果是照目前國民黨版的話，真的有可能會變成沒辦法達到它原來設計的目的彌補收支差短，因為它太重視人口了，而臺南人口相對比較少……"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！是啊！"],["阮次長清華：所以一定相對比較吃虧。"],["賴委員惠員：這個六十幾%的人口比例啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，對，對，而且10%……"],["賴委員惠員：阮次、副座，我想這是一個國家重大的財政問題，我們共同來……"],["阮次長清華：所以我才說要長治久安啦，這個東西大家一定要好好去思考，如果急的話，分配以後真的要改就很難，我們過去花了25年……"],["賴委員惠員：其實我們也知道啦，你還是事緩則圓，就是要慢慢的……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員惠員：這個慢不是說不作為……"],["阮次長清華：是，當然。"],["賴委員惠員：還是要有作為啦。"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["賴委員惠員：因為大家也急，你知道嗎？大家也急，認為財劃法25年沒有修了，中間修了5次，其實後來都沒有辦法實施，當然它有它的困難在，我們當然希望用一個比較精準的方式。再一次謝謝主席，也謝謝兩位。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員。","如果照阮次所說的，這樣子錢撥比較多下去就會充分落實地方自治、地方決定做什麼，然後這樣就可以達到主權在民的理念。如果各位委員對各縣市有意見，比如說賴委員就可以提出對臺南市比較有利的版本嘛，我們會併案審查。好，謝謝。","接著請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}