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0.0}, {\"word\": \"、\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,613 --> 00:00:09,534\n好,有請次長。輪次長。委員好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅計騰宇喔,他到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那他會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?\n\n2\n00:00:32,901 --> 00:00:55,150\n那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計甚於是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。\n\n3\n00:00:56,651 --> 00:01:14,840\n如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題\n\n4\n00:01:15,740 --> 00:01:34,571\n好那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話\n\n5\n00:01:36,052 --> 00:01:46,399\n對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了\n\n6\n00:01:50,842 --> 00:02:16,996\n地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說\n\n7\n00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:20,219\n財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的\n\n8\n00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:58,973\n我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦\n\n9\n00:02:59,493 --> 00:03:17,619\n但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會\n\n10\n00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:45,689\n工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對\n\n11\n00:03:47,449 --> 00:04:02,694\n對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短\n\n12\n00:04:03,354 --> 00:04:31,722\n然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通\n\n13\n00:04:32,482 --> 00:04:48,682\n像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?\n\n14\n00:04:49,703 --> 00:05:08,541\n這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。\n\n15\n00:05:10,583 --> 00:05:30,164\n以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是\n\n16\n00:05:50,617 --> 00:06:13,363\n對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁\n\n17\n00:06:18,905 --> 00:06:35,975\n以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊\n\n18\n00:06:36,595 --> 00:07:02,701\n這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見\n\n19\n00:07:03,601 --> 00:07:05,703\n所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員\n\n20\n00:07:32,438 --> 00:07:33,752\n林業勤、林業勤、\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6613\t9534\t好,有請次長。輪次長。委員好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅計騰宇喔,他到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那他會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?\n32901\t55150\t那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計甚於是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。\n56651\t74840\t如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題\n75740\t94571\t好 那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話\n96052\t106399\t對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了\n110842\t136996\t地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說\n137836\t140219\t財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的\n155300\t178973\t我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦\n179493\t197619\t但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會\n201380\t225689\t工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對\n227449\t242694\t對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短\n243354\t271722\t然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通\n272482\t288682\t像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?\n289703\t308541\t這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。\n310583\t330164\t以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是\n330725\t350077\t對。對。對。對。\n350617\t373363\t對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁\n378905\t395975\t以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊\n396595\t422701\t這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見\n423601\t425703\t所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員\n452438\t453752\t林業勤、林業勤、\n","txt":"好,有請次長。輪次長。委員好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅計騰宇喔,他到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那他會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?\n那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計甚於是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。\n如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題\n好 那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話\n對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了\n地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說\n財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的\n我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦\n但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會\n工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對\n對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短\n然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通\n像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?\n這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。\n以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是\n對。對。對。對。\n對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁\n以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊\n這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見\n所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員\n林業勤、林業勤、\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.613 --> 00:09.534\n好,有請次長。輪次長。委員好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅計騰宇喔,他到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那他會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?\n\n00:32.901 --> 00:55.150\n那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計甚於是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。\n\n00:56.651 --> 01:14.840\n如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題\n\n01:15.740 --> 01:34.571\n好那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話\n\n01:36.052 --> 01:46.399\n對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了\n\n01:50.842 --> 02:16.996\n地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說\n\n02:17.836 --> 02:20.219\n財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的\n\n02:35.300 --> 02:58.973\n我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦\n\n02:59.493 --> 03:17.619\n但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會\n\n03:21.380 --> 03:45.689\n工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對\n\n03:47.449 --> 04:02.694\n對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短\n\n04:03.354 --> 04:31.722\n然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通\n\n04:32.482 --> 04:48.682\n像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?\n\n04:49.703 --> 05:08.541\n這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。\n\n05:10.583 --> 05:30.164\n以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是\n\n05:50.617 --> 06:13.363\n對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁\n\n06:18.905 --> 06:35.975\n以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊\n\n06:36.595 --> 07:02.701\n這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見\n\n07:03.601 --> 07:05.703\n所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員\n\n07:32.438 --> 07:33.752\n林業勤、林業勤、\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.613,"end":9.534,"text":"好,有請次長。輪次長。委員好。辛苦了。我想所有的立院的同事大家好。那我先想請教一下次長,這個稅計騰宇喔,他到底是不是一個穩定的財源?那他會不會受到經濟景氣跟這個稅制調整的一個影響?"},{"start":32.901,"end":55.15,"text":"那將來如果說啦,如果說我們的未來的經濟放緩之後,那是不是它的稅收的收入也有可能會減少,這個會不會對我們的政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力?有可能,因為稅計甚於是這樣子,就是說我們的時增數超過預算數,那通常我們通常增加的我們就用來先還債。"},{"start":56.651,"end":74.84,"text":"如果還債還得差不多以後那還有多的那我們就擺在稅計剩餘作為未來的年度的財源來使用所以有時候就是說有時候景氣好跟景氣不好有時候就是會影響到那個稅計剩餘的這個大小的問題"},{"start":75.74,"end":94.571,"text":"好 那我再問一下就是說如果今天我們真的依照這個國民黨委員他們的一個版本有22個版本到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有沒有一個比較具體的一個版本那如果就這樣子要強調這個我們的這個財化法一定要入法的話"},{"start":96.052,"end":106.399,"text":"對於將來我們也期待台灣不會有天災也可能也不會有疫情再來我們在國防的部分可能真的也不需要以後都交給地方去做這樣就可以了"},{"start":110.842,"end":136.996,"text":"地方政府也不需要做這些還是說他只要跟中央要錢就好?您自己認為呢?要錢的話,跟他要錢他當然也會argue嘛對不對你不可能單純要錢所以一定是說我們不是說要錢而是說我們給他那麼多錢然後我們把他收回來啊收回來的話那他這個就是說有一些那個比如說"},{"start":137.836,"end":140.219,"text":"財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛市長有特別提到的"},{"start":155.3,"end":178.973,"text":"我們必須要注重到所謂的分配的合理性因為每一個縣市他們其實強調的都不太一樣他們的所謂的指標其實也權重也都不同那我記得這個早上其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡我聽到那個羅明才委員他有特別提到啦他說賴恩榮委員還有蔡易瑜委員還有吳立華委員我們也有我們自己的版本啦"},{"start":179.493,"end":197.619,"text":"但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下其實就是為了要凸顯這個水平的指標現在其實還沒有完整的一個統計這個其實是會有非常大的一個期間跟難度比方說我如果是農業縣市的我們可能會講說農業縣市的就會主張說我在犧牲我開發的機會"},{"start":201.38,"end":225.689,"text":"工業縣市的可能講說我用我的費在做這個做這個建設的一個發展我也很辛苦所以其實在地方都還沒有有一個統一的都還有旗艦的一個狀況之下剛剛我們講就是急著要修法真的有那麼重要嗎不然25年當中我們能修法我們早就定了吧我這樣講對不對"},{"start":227.449,"end":242.694,"text":"對,我在想就是說我一直希望就是說不要越修越差啦這也是卓院長講說如果還沒有更好的版本之前現在的版本是最好的版本,為什麼呢?因為現在的版本有這個有考慮到財政收支差短"},{"start":243.354,"end":271.722,"text":"然後他的水平分配也有一定的公平性而且這幾年來地方政府他拿到的這些經費也比竹簾增加那一旦如果這是照他們的版本我們來想一想喔會不會擠壓到比方說其他像是計劃性的一個補助那這個計劃性的一個補助其實就我其實在早上的時候我有特別提到嘛比方說像交通"},{"start":272.482,"end":288.682,"text":"像捷運就等於將來就那些拿回來就等於是全部都地方夠不夠?夠不夠用?就不夠這個也一定不夠?一定不夠社福的部分呢?社福那部分也可以談嘛就是有一些交給地方去做如果像我們的教育的部分呢?"},{"start":289.703,"end":308.541,"text":"這樣會不會擠壓到?這個我想可能涉及到將來主席總書記,我想他會去通訪去做考量。因為時間的關係,我們就不一一在這邊來做討論跟解釋。那我們來看一下下這個圖表的部分。其實114年我們的政府編列中央對地方的一個補助,這個是我們預估。"},{"start":310.583,"end":330.164,"text":"以這個六都的部分我們來看一下台北市如果是用這個一般的補助加計劃的補助然後扣掉這個所謂的一般性的一個補助計劃性的補助看起來好像比較少可是重點是這個計劃性的補助其實我們台北的交通我們台北的捷運是不是早就已經蓋好了是不是"},{"start":330.725,"end":350.077,"text":"對。對。對。對。"},{"start":350.617,"end":373.363,"text":"對,我跟委員報告,委員這個資料只限於這個對中央對地方的補助事實上我們對地方的財源的資源就包括統籌分類稅款嘛一般補助款還有專案補助款還有計劃型補助這邊列的可能就是只有一般補助跟計劃補助沒有包括那個計劃型的補助因為時間的關係啦我再次強調齁"},{"start":378.905,"end":395.975,"text":"以目前我們在講的到底有沒有這個急迫性一定要在這邊修還是說我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點大家有了共識之後我們再來好好的修因為這畢竟牽一髮而動全身啊"},{"start":396.595,"end":422.701,"text":"這個是長治久安的問題而且我早上有提過我們本來有70幾個指標我們扣掉了20幾個就是比較不具普遍性、不具客觀的我們把它貶除掉了之後現在就算52個只有共識的只有5個等於90%以上的指標是沒有任何共識那急著要逐條討論到底要幹嘛這是本席的意見"},{"start":423.601,"end":425.703,"text":"所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識接著我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":452.438,"end":453.752,"text":"林業勤、林業勤、"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（15時）有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長辛苦了，所有的立院同事大家好。我想先請教一下次長，歲計賸餘到底是不是一個穩定的財源？它會不會受到經濟景氣跟稅制調整的影響？將來如果經濟放緩之後，是不是稅收收入也有可能會減少？這會不會對我們政府的財政狀況造成一些壓力？"],["阮次長清華：有可能，因為歲計賸餘是我們的實徵數超過預算數，通常增加的就先用來還債，如果還債還的差不多以後，還有多的就擺在歲計賸餘，作為未來年度的財源使用，所以有時候景氣好跟景氣不好會影響到歲計賸餘的大小。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我再問一下，如果今天我們真的依照國民黨委員的版本，有22個版本，到目前為止其實我們也還沒有看到這22個版本有一個比較具體的版本，如果就這樣強調財劃法一定要入法，對於將來，我們也期待臺灣不會有天災，也可能不會有疫情，在國防部分可能真的也不需要，以後都交給地方去做，這樣就可以了，是不是地方政府也不需要做這些？還是說他們只要跟中央要錢就好？您自己認為呢？"],["阮次長清華：要錢的話，跟他們要錢，他們當然也會argue嘛，對不對？不可能單純要錢，其實我們不是要錢，而是我們給他們那麼多錢，然後把它收回來，收回來的話，就是有一些……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，沒關係。"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說，比如像本來中央負擔的事權……"],["郭委員昱晴：不是只有錢能夠解決這些事情，是吧？對吧，不是只有錢能夠解決這些事情，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，還有事權的問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為財政收支劃分法最主要就像剛剛次長特別提到的，我們必須要注重分配的合理性……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為其實每一個縣市強調的都不太一樣，他們的指標，其實權重也都不同……"],["阮次長清華：對、對。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我們早上一早就坐在這裡，我聽到羅明才委員特別提到，他說賴瑞隆委員、蔡易餘委員，還有伍麗華委員也有自己的版本，但是在這裡我可能也要稍微說明一下，其實就是為了要凸顯水平的指標，現在其實還沒有完整的統計……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：這其實是會有非常大的歧見跟難度。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：比方說，如果是農業縣市，農業縣市就會主張：我在犧牲我開發的機會耶！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：工業縣市可能講：我在用我的肺在進行發展，我也很辛苦……"],["阮次長清華：委員是專家，很清楚。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以其實在地方都還沒有統一，都還有歧見的狀況之下，剛剛我們講，就是急著要修法，真的有那麼重要嗎？不然25年當中，我們能修法，我們早就定了吧，我這樣講對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，我一直希望不要越修越差，這也是卓院長講的，如果還沒有更好的版本之前，現在的版本是最好的版本，為什麼呢？因為現在的版本有考慮到財政收支差短，然後它的水平分配又有一定的公平性，而且這幾年來地方政府拿到的這些經費也是逐年增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：一旦照他們的版本，我們來想一想，會不會擠壓到其他的部分，像是計畫性的補助？計畫性的補助其實早上的時候我有特別提到，比方說像交通、像捷運……"],["阮次長清華：將來那些拿回來就等於全部都是地方……"],["郭委員昱晴：夠不夠用？"],["阮次長清華：一定不夠。"],["郭委員昱晴：社福的部分呢？"],["阮次長清華：社福的部分也可以談嘛！都可以談，就是有一些就交給地方去做。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果像教育的部分呢？會不會擠壓到呢？"],["阮次長清華：這個可能涉及到主計總處，我想將來它會去通盤考量。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒關係，因為時間的關係，我們就不一一在這邊討論跟解釋。我們來看一下圖表的部分，這是114年地方政府編列中央對地方補助，這個是我們預估的，關於六都的部分，臺北市如果是一般補助加計畫補助，然後扣掉所謂一般性的補助，計畫性的補助看起來好像是比較少的，可是重點是這個計畫性的補助，其實我們臺北的交通方面，像我們臺北的捷運，是不是早就已經蓋好？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，我剛剛有提到，委員也有提到，高雄為什麼可以有這麼多？因為現在高雄他們的捷運占了一百多億在裡面，所以其實並沒有比較多，而這個數字應該是次長你們這邊提供的，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，委員這個資料只限於中央對地方的補助，事實上，我們對地方財源的支援，包括統籌分配稅款、一般補助款、專案補助款，還有計畫型補助，這邊列的可能就只有一般補助跟計畫補助，沒有包括計畫型的補助，所以這個可能不是全面的。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為時間的關係，我再次強調，以目前我們在講的，到底有沒有這個急迫性，一定要在這邊修，還是我們要把所有的共識能夠稍微再聚焦一點點，大家有了共識之後，我們再來好好的修，畢竟這牽一髮動全身。"],["阮次長清華：是，我是覺得這個是長治久安的問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，而且我早上有提過，本來有七十幾個指標，我們扣掉了二十幾個，就是比較不具普遍性的、不具客觀的我們把它扣掉之後，現在有52個，其中有共識的只有5個……"],["阮次長清華：其實應該沒有那麼多……"],["郭委員昱晴：等於百分之九十以上的指標是沒有任何的共識，那急著逐條討論到底要幹嘛？這是本席的意見，謝謝次長，也謝謝主席。"],["阮次長清華：我覺得這個意見非常重要，我覺得一定要修，我贊成一定要修……"],["郭委員昱晴：沒有人反對要修，但問題是沒有共識就不能急啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是大家就是想辦法把那個制度弄得更好，比現制更好，這樣才是好的。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝次長，謝謝郭委員。對，所以我們要在逐條討論當中凝聚共識。","接著我們請林月琴委員，林月琴、林月琴，林月琴不在。","接著我們請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}