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\"text\": \"我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 377.294, \"end\": 377.394, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 377.394, \"end\": 377.414, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 377.414, \"end\": 377.454, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 377.454, \"end\": 377.554, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 377.554, \"end\": 377.714, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 377.714, \"end\": 377.834, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 377.834, \"end\": 377.854, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 377.854, \"end\": 377.894, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 377.894, \"end\": 377.934, \"score\": 0.494}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 377.934, \"end\": 377.994, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 377.994, \"end\": 378.074, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 378.074, \"end\": 378.174, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 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00:00:38,256\n委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨\n\n3\n00:00:38,976 --> 00:01:06,207\n版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像\n\n4\n00:01:06,627 --> 00:01:30,357\n但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:32,277 --> 00:01:51,381\n等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂\n\n6\n00:01:55,423 --> 00:02:23,943\n現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣\n\n7\n00:02:24,603 --> 00:02:50,015\n對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦\n\n8\n00:02:52,316 --> 00:03:13,693\n那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的\n\n9\n00:03:14,133 --> 00:03:33,938\n等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛\n\n10\n00:03:34,518 --> 00:03:47,751\n那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題\n\n11\n00:03:49,872 --> 00:04:10,838\n謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務\n\n12\n00:04:11,938 --> 00:04:27,690\n以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀\n\n13\n00:04:36,756 --> 00:04:59,109\n如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常\n\n14\n00:05:01,730 --> 00:05:16,706\n他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們\n\n15\n00:05:17,267 --> 00:05:37,564\n如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛\n\n16\n00:05:38,084 --> 00:05:54,871\n所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣\n\n17\n00:05:58,615 --> 00:06:14,645\n但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?\n\n18\n00:06:17,294 --> 00:06:19,936\n我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:44,157 --> 00:06:57,845\n而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員\n\n20\n00:07:04,250 --> 00:07:14,806\n市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2233\t4042\t好 謝謝主席 有請次長金鸞次長\n9779\t38256\t委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨\n38976\t66207\t版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像\n66627\t90357\t但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?\n92277\t111381\t等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂\n115423\t143943\t現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣\n144603\t170015\t對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦\n172316\t193693\t那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的\n194133\t213938\t等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛\n214518\t227751\t那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題\n229872\t250838\t謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務\n251938\t267690\t以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀\n276756\t299109\t如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常\n301730\t316706\t他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們\n317267\t337564\t如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛\n338084\t354871\t所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣\n358615\t374645\t但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?\n377294\t379936\t我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?\n404157\t417845\t而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員\n424250\t434806\t市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長金鸞次長\n委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨\n版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像\n但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?\n等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂\n現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣\n對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦\n那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的\n等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛\n那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題\n謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務\n以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀\n如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常\n他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們\n如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛\n所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣\n但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?\n我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?\n而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員\n市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.233 --> 00:04.042\n好謝謝主席有請次長金鸞次長\n\n00:09.779 --> 00:38.256\n委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨\n\n00:38.976 --> 01:06.207\n版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像\n\n01:06.627 --> 01:30.357\n但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?\n\n01:32.277 --> 01:51.381\n等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂\n\n01:55.423 --> 02:23.943\n現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣\n\n02:24.603 --> 02:50.015\n對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦\n\n02:52.316 --> 03:13.693\n那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的\n\n03:14.133 --> 03:33.938\n等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛\n\n03:34.518 --> 03:47.751\n那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題\n\n03:49.872 --> 04:10.838\n謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務\n\n04:11.938 --> 04:27.690\n以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀\n\n04:36.756 --> 04:59.109\n如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常\n\n05:01.730 --> 05:16.706\n他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們\n\n05:17.267 --> 05:37.564\n如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛\n\n05:38.084 --> 05:54.871\n所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣\n\n05:58.615 --> 06:14.645\n但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?\n\n06:17.294 --> 06:19.936\n我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?\n\n06:44.157 --> 06:57.845\n而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員\n\n07:04.250 --> 07:14.806\n市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.233,"end":4.042,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長金鸞次長"},{"start":9.779,"end":38.256,"text":"委員好市長我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題也包含主席剛剛說既然沒有共識我們就要在主條當中討論但是就我在教育文化委員會我們在去年最後一年上一屆最後一年我們在國教法跟特教法的大修包含還有學復法的討論我們發現在主條當中有可能共識的起義點會更大我舉一個例子跟市長您請教在財政委員會裡面我們看到這一次國民黨"},{"start":38.976,"end":66.207,"text":"版本的提案20多個而每一個版本裡面呢金額有從300多億到五、六千億的每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大那更何況到各個縣市不管是藍、綠、執政甚至是白我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標都有不同的想法跟想像"},{"start":66.627,"end":90.357,"text":"但是這樣到底要怎麼討論?你們在跟縣市討論的時候,你們通常目前,討論到目前為止,你覺得有可能會是什麼方向往下走?目前我們的努力的方向先從水平的分配指標,先大家取得最大的共識。好,等一下,如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識,還有辦法再往下討論嗎?"},{"start":92.277,"end":111.381,"text":"等於是又像回到原點一樣那你可不可以告訴大家目前在水平分配的討論上大家的共識度從0分到10分有幾分?22縣市是這樣子我跟委員報告本來各縣市提了80個指標沒錯我看到你們給我們的報告裡面有收攏指標大概已經在收斂"},{"start":115.423,"end":143.943,"text":"現在大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定這三大指標目前大家可接受度0分到10分那一部分就是比如說像污染的問題再生能源的問題或者是說稅出的節省的問題我覺得這三個指標我覺得應該難度不是最高的最高的就是那個權重權重跟加成那一部分因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":144.603,"end":170.015,"text":"對所以大家一定會說那我對有利的我權重高一點當然都是這樣的所以這問題在這裡好那如果光是我在我是財委的外委我這麼外行的人我聽起來都覺得這差異這麼大怎麼可能在馬上要進入主條討論他就有機會收容成共識有可能嗎你自己說實話如果有一些前次作業的話在主條討論才會順利啦"},{"start":172.316,"end":193.693,"text":"那前次作業,可是如果按照召委的排程,到禮拜三召委看起來就想要進入逐條討論,高可能?我覺得難度會很高,為什麼?因為每個版本都差異太大而且有一些就是說根本就脫離了我們財務法的立法的目的"},{"start":194.133,"end":213.938,"text":"等一下等一下,還有脫離的我們剛剛還談有一些收容的,然後大家有一些共識,現在甚且還有脫離的我所謂的意思就是說,它的設計它的設計就沒有考慮到比如說財政收支的差短的彌補因為我們就是有些縣市比較好嘛"},{"start":214.518,"end":227.751,"text":"那11個縣市有其中的11個縣市你全部就留給他用也不夠用啊所以一定要有一些就是結場補短嘛但是目前很多的很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題"},{"start":229.872,"end":250.838,"text":"謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題也就是說如果我光是看起來這個落差這麼大那我就先不要再花時間跟你討論因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識可是我們再往下看也跟您請教另外一個題目在我們交融化委員會有非常多的預算是必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務"},{"start":251.938,"end":267.69,"text":"以我自己最關心的用閱讀對抗3C或是這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法在學習光是閱讀這件事情每一年都必須有教育部、中央來撥補這個經費讓各個地方圖書館或者是學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子進到校園裡面或者是在社區的圖書館可以做閱讀"},{"start":276.756,"end":299.109,"text":"如果一旦中央的經費被拿走除了我剛剛說的閱讀還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼或者是大學生、高中生學費的補助還有重大的交通建設甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403的震災之後是由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設我所舉的這麼多是我們的民生日常"},{"start":301.73,"end":316.706,"text":"他都必須要來中央支出這些錢一旦如果錢真的像這些剛剛那20幾個版本通通錄到地方去那我們中央會發生什麼事情可不可以就您您可不可以就我剛剛舉例我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們"},{"start":317.267,"end":337.564,"text":"如果是這樣的話,因為中央目前的版本如果釋出太多的資源的話,中央很多的施政真的沒辦法做所以剛才委員提到那些所謂計劃性輔助可能就要拉回來,因為我錢已經出去了嘛"},{"start":338.084,"end":354.871,"text":"所以那些相關的這個權責就是交給地方政府去做但是這個中央已經做了很久了但是不好意思主席我再一分鐘就好可是我有一個疑問像交通對我還有一分鐘主席你站太快了這樣"},{"start":358.615,"end":374.645,"text":"但是我有一個疑問,因為我剛剛舉例,像政災這件事情,它如果牽扯到交通建設,它會有跨縣市的問題。或者是我剛剛說的閱讀的補助,它也會有跨縣市的問題。所以我們通通都丟到地方去,那跨縣市之間他們怎麼整合、怎麼討論?"},{"start":377.294,"end":379.936,"text":"我相信你也沒有辦法回答我相信沒有任何人可以回答這些問題,對嗎?"},{"start":404.157,"end":417.845,"text":"而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法因為就算有了法條但是相關的配套相關的落實如果都有問題那法條寫了也是白寫不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的是蠻辛苦的難度會非常高沒錯好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝陳委員"},{"start":424.25,"end":434.806,"text":"市長要好好準備喔!金日竹條如果回答不出來這個對財政部來講有失顏面我是跟市長說鼓勵他好好準備然後不同的意見是我們民主社會"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（15時8分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我想就剛剛幾位委員的發言跟您請教幾個問題，也包含主席剛剛說的，既然沒有共識，我們就要在逐條當中討論，但是就我在教育及文化委員會，在去年、在上一屆的最後一年，我們進行國教法跟特教法的大修，還有學輔法的討論，我們發現在逐條當中有可能共識的歧異點會更大。我舉一個例子跟次長您請教，在財政委員會裡面，我們看到這一次國民黨版本的提案有二十多個，每一個版本裡面的金額從三百多億到五、六千億的……"],["阮次長清華：到七千多億。"],["陳委員培瑜：每一個版本之間的金額懸殊非常的大，光是國民黨的版本差異就這麼大，更何況到各個縣市，不管是藍、綠執政，甚至是白，我相信大家對於自己有加分的指標，或者是意識到自己可能會被扣分的指標，都有不同的想法跟想像，但是這樣到底要怎麼討論，你們在跟縣市討論的時候，就你們討論的到目前為止，你覺得有可能會朝什麼方向往下走？"],["阮次長清華：目前我們努力的方向，是先從水平的分配指標來取得最大共識，這個對將來的修法……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，如果在水平分配都已經沒有共識，還有辦法再往下討論嗎？"],["阮次長清華：等於又回到原點一樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：你可不可以告訴大家，目前22縣市在水平分配的討論上，從零分到十分，大家的共識度有幾分？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，本來各縣市提了八十個指標……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯，我看到你們給我們的報告裡面是寫這樣，現在有收攏吧？"],["阮次長清華：現在已經在收斂，大概只剩下三大指標還沒有確定。"],["陳委員培瑜：這三大指標從零分到十分，目前大家可接受度是？"],["阮次長清華：那部分比如說像污染問題、再生能源問題，或歲出的節省問題，我覺得這三個指標難度應該不是最高的，最高的是權重跟加成那部分。因為每個縣市的狀況都不一樣，所以大家一定會說對我有利的就權重高一點……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然，都是這樣的。"],["阮次長清華：所以問題在這裡。"],["陳委員培瑜：我是財委的外委，我這麼外行的人，聽起來都覺得差異這麼大，怎麼可能馬上進入逐條討論就有機會收攏成共識，有可能嗎？你自己說實話。"],["阮次長清華：如果有一些前置作業的話，那麼逐條討論才會順利。因為現在……"],["陳委員培瑜：前置作業，可是如果按照召委的排程，看起來禮拜三召委就想要進入逐條討論，有可能嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得難度會很高，為什麼？因為每個版本都差異太大，而且有些根本就脫離了財劃法的立法目的……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，還有脫離的？我們剛剛談到有一些收攏的，大家有一些共識，現在居然還有脫離的？"],["阮次長清華：我所謂脫離的意思是，設計上沒有考慮到比如財政收支差短的彌補。因為有些縣市比較好，但其中有11個縣市就算全部留給它也不夠用啊！所以一定要有一些截長補短，但目前很多版本都沒有考慮到這些問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你對版本的熟悉來回答我剛剛的問題。也就是說，如果看起來落差這麼大，那就不要再花時間跟你討論，因為看起來我們兩個今天也不會有共識。可是我們再往下看，同時也跟您請教另外一個題目，在教育文化委員會有非常多預算必須由中央撥補給地方去執行相關業務，我自己最關心的是用閱讀對抗3C，或這個世代的小孩必須把閱讀視為一種學習方法學習。但光閱讀這件事，每年都必須由中央的教育部來撥補經費……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：讓各地方圖書館或學校圖書館有錢採購圖書給我們的孩子，讓他們可以進到校園裡面或社區圖書館閱讀。一旦中央的經費被拿走，除了我剛剛說的閱讀外，還包含我們這幾年非常在意的育兒津貼，或大學生、高中生的學費補助，還有重大交通建設，甚至像前一陣子花蓮0403震災之後，由行政院吸收了大部分的震災費用到很多的交通建設上。我舉出這麼多項目，是我們的民生日常，都必須由中央支出這些錢；一旦錢真的像剛剛那二十幾個版本通通都到地方去，請問中央會發生什麼事情？您可不可以就我剛剛舉例的，我們一般人最熟悉的這些事情來告訴我們？"],["阮次長清華：以目前很多版本來看，如果中央釋出太多資源的話，那麼中央有很多施政真的沒辦法做！所以剛才委員提到的那些計畫型補助可能就要拉回來，因為錢已經出去了，要把相關權責交給地方政府去做，問題是中央已經做很久了，很順……"],["陳委員培瑜：不好意思，主席，我再一分鐘就好。對，我還有一分鐘，是主席站太快了。","我有一個疑問，像我剛剛舉例的震災這件事，如果牽扯到交通建設就會有跨縣市的問題；或者我剛剛說的閱讀補助，也會有跨縣市的問題，如果通通都丟到地方去，那麼跨縣市之間的問題怎麼整合、怎麼討論？"],["阮次長清華：這個就是我們在整合的時候碰到的一個很大的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果以我一個財政外行來看，都會遇到這麼多的問題，在我們熟悉的教育及文化委員會的議題上，那我就必須要拜託次長，我們後續的討論也許真的要暫停、煞車，不要再往前推進，因為看起來逐條討論，如果別的委員會的委員都開始來問您、請教這些問題，我相信你也沒有辦法回答，我想沒有任何人可以回答這些問題，對嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是，我覺得……"],["陳委員培瑜：而且用法條看起來也不是最好的方法，因為就算有了法條，但是相關的配套、相關的落實如果都有問題，那法條寫了等於也是白寫，不知道我這樣的認知是不是正確的？"],["阮次長清華：是滿辛苦的，難度會非常高啦。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，次長要好好準備喔，進入逐條如果回答不出來，這個對財政部來講有失顏面。"],["陳委員培瑜：你不要這樣威脅次長！"],["主席：我是跟次長說，鼓勵他好好準備，然後不同的意見是我們民主社會的可貴嘛，我們逐條討論時當然會有各種不同的意見，各個縣市都有不同的意見。"],["賴委員惠員：你不要語帶恐嚇！"],["主席：沒有，我是說請他好好準備，才不會丟財政部的臉。然後不同意見就是民主的可貴嘛，民主社會就是這樣可貴，如果大家都沒有辦法達成共識，國家也是要往前走，那我們就會尊重民主的制度嘛。我提供我在內政委員會修法時有八十幾個版本、一百多條的經驗，告訴大家，就是逐條、逐條進入討論，就會凝聚出共識，沒有凝聚出共識，就像以前民進黨的作法一樣，就送交朝野協商，再沒有共識，就送交院會表決決定，謝謝。","接著我們請范委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}