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\"end\": 45.268, \"text\": \"就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 43.726, \"end\": 43.826, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 43.826, \"end\": 43.846, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 43.846, \"end\": 43.906, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 43.906, \"end\": 43.926, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 43.926, \"end\": 44.006, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 44.006, \"end\": 44.026, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"珍\", \"start\": 44.026, \"end\": 44.107, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 44.107, \"end\": 44.127, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 44.127, \"end\": 44.147, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 44.147, \"end\": 44.227, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 44.227, \"end\": 44.287, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 44.287, \"end\": 44.307, \"score\": 0.0}, 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\"start\": 408.063, \"end\": 408.244, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 408.244, \"end\": 408.365, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"浪\", \"start\": 408.365, \"end\": 408.385, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,787 --> 00:00:06,669\n好,謝謝主席,有請次長喔,阮次長喂,委員好\n\n2\n00:00:14,146 --> 00:00:42,645\n市長伍安喔我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億那請問您你知道最低的是哪位委員的版本最低的我印象中好像我記得是\n\n3\n00:00:43,726 --> 00:00:45,268\n就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000\n\n4\n00:01:00,023 --> 00:01:23,440\n300億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林、張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧\n\n5\n00:01:23,980 --> 00:01:45,144\n他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億\n\n6\n00:01:47,946 --> 00:01:56,904\n羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?\n\n7\n00:01:57,958 --> 00:02:22,178\n我覺得是這樣,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理垂直分配。我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5090億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所說現在分配出去的是10%,對不對?\n\n8\n00:02:23,539 --> 00:02:29,281\n他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法幫他們回答所以這差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席\n\n9\n00:02:49,147 --> 00:03:09,963\n地方的聲音,我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大\n\n10\n00:03:10,803 --> 00:03:29,191\n所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本\n\n11\n00:03:32,152 --> 00:03:47,897\n6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料老寶基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個老寶基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦\n\n12\n00:03:48,991 --> 00:03:54,493\n我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?\n\n13\n00:04:16,391 --> 00:04:29,723\n有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網\n\n14\n00:04:32,586 --> 00:04:58,331\n有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐\n\n15\n00:05:00,071 --> 00:05:27,424\n那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛\n\n16\n00:05:28,024 --> 00:05:47,552\n這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。\n\n17\n00:05:51,013 --> 00:06:20,173\n民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上\n\n18\n00:06:22,073 --> 00:06:43,038\n謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊\n\n19\n00:06:46,072 --> 00:06:48,385\n那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4787\t6669\t好,謝謝主席,有請次長喔,阮次長喂,委員好\n14146\t42645\t市長伍安喔我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億那請問您你知道最低的是哪位委員的版本最低的我印象中好像我記得是\n43726\t45268\t就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000\n60023\t83440\t300億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林、張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧\n83980\t105144\t他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億\n107946\t116904\t羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?\n117958\t142178\t我覺得是這樣,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理垂直分配。我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5090億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所說現在分配出去的是10%,對不對?\n143539\t149281\t他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法幫他們回答所以這差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席\n169147\t189963\t地方的聲音,我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大\n190803\t209191\t所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本\n212152\t227897\t6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料老寶基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個老寶基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦\n228991\t234493\t我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?\n256391\t269723\t有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網\n272586\t298331\t有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐\n300071\t327424\t那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛\n328024\t347552\t這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。\n351013\t380173\t民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上\n382073\t403038\t謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊\n406072\t408385\t那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,有請次長喔,阮次長喂,委員好\n市長伍安喔我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億那請問您你知道最低的是哪位委員的版本最低的我印象中好像我記得是\n就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000\n300億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林、張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧\n他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億\n羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?\n我覺得是這樣,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理垂直分配。我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5090億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所說現在分配出去的是10%,對不對?\n他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法幫他們回答所以這差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席\n地方的聲音,我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大\n所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本\n6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料老寶基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個老寶基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦\n我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?\n有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網\n有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐\n那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛\n這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。\n民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上\n謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊\n那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.787 --> 00:06.669\n好,謝謝主席,有請次長喔,阮次長喂,委員好\n\n00:14.146 --> 00:42.645\n市長伍安喔我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億那請問您你知道最低的是哪位委員的版本最低的我印象中好像我記得是\n\n00:43.726 --> 00:45.268\n就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000\n\n01:00.023 --> 01:23.440\n300億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林、張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧\n\n01:23.980 --> 01:45.144\n他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億\n\n01:47.946 --> 01:56.904\n羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?\n\n01:57.958 --> 02:22.178\n我覺得是這樣,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理垂直分配。我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5090億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所說現在分配出去的是10%,對不對?\n\n02:23.539 --> 02:29.281\n他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法幫他們回答所以這差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席\n\n02:49.147 --> 03:09.963\n地方的聲音,我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大\n\n03:10.803 --> 03:29.191\n所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本\n\n03:32.152 --> 03:47.897\n6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料老寶基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個老寶基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦\n\n03:48.991 --> 03:54.493\n我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?\n\n04:16.391 --> 04:29.723\n有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網\n\n04:32.586 --> 04:58.331\n有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐\n\n05:00.071 --> 05:27.424\n那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛\n\n05:28.024 --> 05:47.552\n這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。\n\n05:51.013 --> 06:20.173\n民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上\n\n06:22.073 --> 06:43.038\n謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊\n\n06:46.072 --> 06:48.385\n那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.787,"end":6.669,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請次長喔,阮次長喂,委員好"},{"start":14.146,"end":42.645,"text":"市長伍安喔我想您應該對這些版本的研究應該是最透徹的您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大沒錯以我看到的我們最高就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的政政前委員7633億那請問您你知道最低的是哪位委員的版本最低的我印象中好像我記得是"},{"start":43.726,"end":45.268,"text":"就是台上的陳玉珍委員啊就是中央釋出328億喔我不是要同一個政黨喔?328億嗎?同一個政黨這個差距有7000"},{"start":60.023,"end":83.44,"text":"300億之多是因為鄭振前在桃園、陳玉珍在金門、金門的財政前在新竹鄭振前在新竹我講錯了這個國民黨委員這個差距有7300億同樣是雲林、張家俊委員的版本是中央釋出6612億我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧"},{"start":83.98,"end":105.144,"text":"他的版本是他的一半還要少3035億耶那我們到底是雲林的意見張家俊的比較有代表性還是丁學忠的同樣都是出自新北的應該都很了解新北需求吧洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5090億"},{"start":107.946,"end":116.904,"text":"羅明才委員的只有443億請問次長您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見還是羅明才委員?"},{"start":117.958,"end":142.178,"text":"我覺得是這樣,他們的差別在哪裡?在哪?一個要選市長,一個沒有要選新北市長嗎?因為他們都只處理垂直分配。我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嗎?一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億,洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要5090億?因為很簡單,因為他就是把那所說現在分配出去的是10%,對不對?"},{"start":143.539,"end":149.281,"text":"他就把他提高到25%我沒辦法幫他們回答所以這差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見差距就如此巨大剛剛主席居然評論我們國立群委員說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決欸主席"},{"start":169.147,"end":189.963,"text":"地方的聲音,我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性光新北都不知道誰同樣都是選出來的你如果說張家俊不是選的丁學忠比較有代表性的話光是選出來的我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見更何況地方政府辦個公聽會之後意見也是差距很大"},{"start":190.803,"end":209.191,"text":"所以這條就是差距之大我們剛講這個部分中央釋出的部分就沒辦法就說看到一個共識了那我想請問次長您要負責中央的財政嘛我們今年假設好了國民黨最後打一架或者不准打架一律聽黨團的版本"},{"start":212.152,"end":227.897,"text":"6612億中央釋出請問次長我看到我拿到的資料老寶基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一百分之三十一對不對那請問次長那個老寶基金撥補砍了之後不夠的部分怎麼辦"},{"start":228.991,"end":234.493,"text":"我問你有沒有哪一個委員的法條把勞保的責任、基金撥補也拿走了?"},{"start":256.391,"end":269.723,"text":"有嗎?對,勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助?因為錢不夠啊,中央就是有,我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛對,所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嗎?沒有嘛,那強化社會安全網"},{"start":272.586,"end":298.331,"text":"有哪個委員的版本地方政府?沒有!那教育更不用講了我剛講教育依法是地方事權我早上舉的那個東部蒙知名縣市就是講國民黨的那個總召啦他的縣市啦花蓮啊都已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了然後一直在聘代理教師然後錢就是拿去辦營養午餐"},{"start":300.071,"end":327.424,"text":"那更不用講國防請問次長國防2945億還不含人數喔這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力這有辦法叫地方來補嗎這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎請問財政次長目前大概最可能的就是從這個計劃不是我不要講錢了這個事項不可能交給地方嗎不可能不可能那是中央的職權嘛"},{"start":328.024,"end":347.552,"text":"這個你要補來補去,你到時候又挖到別的,對不對?對。所以呢,癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔。所以呢,剛剛召委一直說,哎呀,這個差距要逐條審查,可以來討論。欸,立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦,你要討論你辦學術座談會,你辦座談會。"},{"start":351.013,"end":380.173,"text":"民主一定要討論但是如果你只是為了而討論而討論你辦座談會就好了審法條是要準備好了知道解方之後才是負責任的討論要不負責任的任意討論辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞請我們朝委從善如流一修法之後十幾二十年國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨這樣太沒有志氣了以上"},{"start":382.073,"end":403.038,"text":"謝謝范委員沒有討論不是民主怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方你說錯了是不是你說立法院不是討論的地方喔我們民主的可謂就是有多元的意見所以我們不是要辦座談會所以我們才要進入主條討論大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊"},{"start":406.072,"end":408.385,"text":"那怎麼會浪費時間呢?討論是浪費時間嗎?逐條討論是浪費時間嗎?"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（15時16分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長午安。我想您對這些版本的研究應該是最透澈的，您應該有看到我們各版本的差異是非常巨大。"],["阮次長清華：對，非常大。"],["范委員雲：沒錯，以我看到的，這裡面最高，就是要求中央釋出給地方最高的版本是國民黨的鄭正鈐委員──7,633億，請問您知道最低的是哪位委員的版本。"],["阮次長清華：最低的，我印象中好像是我們的召委，333億……"],["范委員雲：就是臺上的陳玉珍委員啦，就是中央釋出328億。"],["阮次長清華：對，328億。"],["范委員雲：我不知道同一個政黨，這個差距有7,300億之多，是因為鄭正鈐在桃園，陳玉珍在金門，金門的財政比較好嗎？"],["主席：鄭正鈐在新竹。"],["范委員雲：鄭正鈐在新竹，我講錯了，國民黨委員的版本這個差距有7,300億。同樣是雲林，張嘉郡委員的版本是中央釋出6,612億，我們丁學忠委員也是雲林選出的代表吧，他的版本是比他的一半還要少，3,035億。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["范委員雲：那雲林的意見，到底是張嘉郡的比較有代表性呢？還是丁學忠的？同樣都是出自新北的，應該都很了解新北需求吧，洪孟楷委員的是中央要釋出5,090億，羅明才委員的只有443億，請問次長，您覺得洪孟楷委員比較能代表新北的意見，還是羅明才委員？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得是這樣啦，他們的差別在哪裡，就是……"],["范委員雲：就是一個要選市長，一個沒有要選新北市長嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為他們都只處理那個垂直分配，所以……"],["范委員雲：我們光講垂直分配就差距這麼大嘛。"],["阮次長清華：對，因為他就是……"],["范委員雲：一個覺得好像中央只要拿出443億，洪孟楷不知道為什麼覺得中央需要釋出5,090億。"],["阮次長清華：很簡單，因為所得稅現在分配出去的是10%嘛，對不對？他就把它提高到25%……"],["范委員雲：不是，我請問您，從你的角度，你覺得新北的角度哪一位比較有代表性？他們看中央要釋出多少。"],["阮次長清華：我沒辦法幫他們回答。"],["范委員雲：沒辦法判斷嘛？"],["阮次長清華：沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["范委員雲：所以這個差距有大到一個國民黨內部的意見，差距就是如此巨大，剛剛主席居然評論我們郭昱晴委員，說這個只要逐條討論就可以解決。主席，這地方的聲音，地方我們光雲林就不知道誰有代表性，光新北都不知道是誰，同樣都是選出來的，你如果說張嘉郡不是選的，丁學忠比較有代表性的話，那光是選出來的，我們都無法判斷他能不能代表地方的意見耶，更何況，地方政府辦了公聽會之後，意見也是差距很大嘛。"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["范委員雲：所以這一條差距之大，我們剛剛講這個，中央釋出的部分就沒辦法看到一個共識了。我想請問次長，您要負責中央的財政嘛，我們今天假設國民黨最後打一架，或是不准打架一律聽黨團的版本，中央釋出6,612億，次長，以我拿到的資料，勞保基金的撥補可能也要砍三分之一，31%，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，要。"],["范委員雲：請問次長，那個勞保基金撥補砍了之後，不夠的部分怎麼辦？"],["阮次長清華：不夠的話，我們現在還在精算啦，因為國民黨團……"],["范委員雲：我問你，我們可不可以請地方來支付？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，國民黨團後來有降，大概現在變成4,080億元，有降到4,080億元，有降下來，他也覺得太高了……"],["范委員雲：那我問你，有沒有哪個委員的法條把勞保的責任基金撥補也拿走了，有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：勞保？"],["范委員雲：對，勞保基金可不可以也請地方來協助？因為錢不夠啊，中央……"],["阮次長清華：對啊，我們現在就是一定要透過事權的調整嘛……"],["范委員雲：對，所以目前沒有哪個委員的版本有事權調整嘛！"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["范委員雲：沒有嘛！"],["阮次長清華：沒有。"],["范委員雲：那強化社會安全網，有哪個委員的版本，地方政府……"],["阮次長清華：都沒有……"],["范委員雲：沒有？"],["阮次長清華：幾乎目前都只處理……"],["范委員雲：那教育更不用講了，我剛剛講教育依法是地方事權，我早上舉的東部某知名縣市，就是講國民黨總召的縣市啦，花蓮啦，已經有法律規定教育是地方事務的都任意挪用了，一直在聘代理教師，然後把錢拿去辦營養午餐，更不用講國防，請問次長，國防2,945億，還不含人事喔，這個部分應該是要強化我們國防的能力，這有辦法叫地方來補嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是啊，國防應該……"],["范委員雲：這個事務有辦法交給地方嗎？請問財政部次長？"],["阮次長清華：目前大概最可能的就是從這個計畫型……"],["范委員雲：不是，我不要講錢了，這個事項不可能交給地方嘛！"],["阮次長清華：不可能，不可能，那是中央的職權。"],["范委員雲：對嘛，那這個你要補來補去，你到時候又挖到別的了，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["范委員雲：對，所以癌症防治跟國防都不可能交給地方喔，所以剛剛召委一直說這個差距在逐條審查可以來討論，立法院審法條不是討論的地方啦，你要討論你辦學術座談會，你辦座談會，民主一定要討論，但是如果你只是為了討論而討論，你辦座談會就好了，審法條是要準備好了，知道解方之後才是負責任的討論，要不負責任的任意討論，辦座談會大家就可以增長見聞，好嗎？請我們召委從善如流！一修法之後十幾二十年，國民黨不要搞得好像自己都不想再當執政黨，這樣太沒有志氣了！以上。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝范委員，謝謝。沒有討論不是民主，怎麼會立法院不是討論的地方，你說錯了，是不是？"],["范委員雲：主席中文……"],["主席：沒有，你說立法院不是討論的地方喔？"],["范委員雲：不是，我說……"],["主席：我們民主的可貴就是有多元的意見……"],["范委員雲：……座談會就好了！"],["主席：民主的可貴，所以我們不是要辦座談會，所以我們才要進入逐條討論，大家針對每一條好好的來討論啊！"],["范委員雲：沒有準備的討論是浪費時間！"],["主席：怎麼會浪費時間呢？討論是浪費時間嗎？逐條討論是浪費時間嗎？我們逐條討論以後，如果沒有共識，那就按照民主的程序，少數服從多數，多數尊重少數，這個本來是這樣子。","不是啦，你剛剛說立法院不是討論的地方，讓我非常驚訝啦！沒關係，民主的可貴就是多元意見啊！我們一定會好好討論，而且我們不能只有廣泛討論，太書空咄咄。","好，沒關係，大家等一下繼續登記就可以繼續發言。接著我們請羅明才委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}