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\"這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 285.71, \"end\": 285.83, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 285.83, \"end\": 285.97, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 285.97, \"end\": 286.131, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 286.131, \"end\": 286.271, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 286.271, \"end\": 286.291, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 286.291, \"end\": 286.471, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 286.471, \"end\": 286.811, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 286.811, \"end\": 286.951, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 286.951, \"end\": 287.171, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 311.75, \"end\": 311.93, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 311.93, \"end\": 312.05, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 312.05, \"end\": 312.17, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 312.17, \"end\": 312.35, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 312.35, \"end\": 312.53, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"彰\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 312.53, \"end\": 313.011, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 313.011, \"end\": 313.871, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 313.871, \"end\": 314.792, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 314.792, \"end\": 315.492, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 315.492, \"end\": 315.612, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 501.765, \"end\": 502.186, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 502.186, \"end\": 502.346, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 502.346, \"end\": 502.486, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 502.486, \"end\": 502.506, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,410 --> 00:00:05,363\n各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事。\n\n2\n00:00:11,308 --> 00:00:28,828\n拜委好,政事好,謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的\n\n3\n00:00:31,010 --> 00:00:35,773\n財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政\n\n4\n00:00:54,771 --> 00:01:10,163\n財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政事我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢\n\n5\n00:01:25,274 --> 00:01:51,365\n到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然一百,剛剛講委員提到一百一十一、一百一十二,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是赤字。\n\n6\n00:01:52,245 --> 00:02:20,166\n所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健\n\n7\n00:02:22,248 --> 00:02:44,221\n我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債啦都是赤字啦\n\n8\n00:02:51,105 --> 00:03:11,963\n所以只是稅收那一部分就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多但是呢你如果加計特別預算的話其實是還是赤字啊好了解謝謝政事那本席了解就是說政府的預算因為這個每年都超出稅收這就是人民的納稅錢啦可是因為特別預算\n\n9\n00:03:14,279 --> 00:03:31,260\n當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做\n\n10\n00:03:32,481 --> 00:03:32,962\n財政收支劃分法\n\n11\n00:03:47,538 --> 00:04:05,712\n國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本席是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講\n\n12\n00:04:07,173 --> 00:04:24,399\n他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題\n\n13\n00:04:25,899 --> 00:04:45,050\n那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上提升\n\n14\n00:04:45,710 --> 00:05:10,829\n這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多\n\n15\n00:05:11,750 --> 00:05:35,662\n過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點\n\n16\n00:05:36,622 --> 00:05:50,280\n是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出\n\n17\n00:05:51,482 --> 00:06:14,619\n都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整\n\n18\n00:06:18,402 --> 00:06:24,304\n最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。\n\n19\n00:06:39,929 --> 00:06:46,272\n對,我們會努力來整合,所以次長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論嘛,對不對?因為這是大約的職權嘛,就是委員自然就可以怎麼決定嘛。\n\n20\n00:07:01,361 --> 00:07:21,929\n但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦\n\n21\n00:07:23,018 --> 00:07:44,466\n我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我覺得\n\n22\n00:08:14,899 --> 00:08:22,506\n謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖次你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好接著我們請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n410\t5363\t各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事。\n11308\t28828\t拜委好,政事好,謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的\n31010\t35773\t財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政\n54771\t70163\t財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政事我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢\n85274\t111365\t到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然一百,剛剛講委員提到一百一十一、一百一十二,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是赤字。\n112245\t140166\t所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健\n142248\t164221\t我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債啦都是赤字啦\n171105\t191963\t所以只是稅收那一部分就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多但是呢你如果加計特別預算的話其實是還是赤字啊好了解謝謝政事那本席了解就是說政府的預算因為這個每年都超出稅收這就是人民的納稅錢啦可是因為特別預算\n194279\t211260\t當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做\n212481\t212962\t財政收支劃分法\n227538\t245712\t國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本席是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講\n247173\t264399\t他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題\n265899\t285050\t那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上提升\n285710\t310829\t這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多\n311750\t335662\t過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點\n336622\t350280\t是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出\n351482\t374619\t都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整\n378402\t384304\t最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。\n399929\t406272\t對,我們會努力來整合,所以次長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論嘛,對不對?因為這是大約的職權嘛,就是委員自然就可以怎麼決定嘛。\n421361\t441929\t但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦\n443018\t464466\t我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我覺得\n465486\t493148\t響鐘\n494899\t502506\t謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖次你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好接著我們請\n","txt":"各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事。\n拜委好,政事好,謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的\n財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政\n財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政事我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢\n到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然一百,剛剛講委員提到一百一十一、一百一十二,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是赤字。\n所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健\n我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債啦都是赤字啦\n所以只是稅收那一部分就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多但是呢你如果加計特別預算的話其實是還是赤字啊好了解謝謝政事那本席了解就是說政府的預算因為這個每年都超出稅收這就是人民的納稅錢啦可是因為特別預算\n當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做\n財政收支劃分法\n國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本席是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講\n他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題\n那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上提升\n這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多\n過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點\n是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出\n都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整\n最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。\n對,我們會努力來整合,所以次長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論嘛,對不對?因為這是大約的職權嘛,就是委員自然就可以怎麼決定嘛。\n但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦\n我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我覺得\n響鐘\n謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖次你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好接著我們請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.410 --> 00:05.363\n各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事。\n\n00:11.308 --> 00:28.828\n拜委好,政事好,謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的\n\n00:31.010 --> 00:35.773\n財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政\n\n00:54.771 --> 01:10.163\n財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政事我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢\n\n01:25.274 --> 01:51.365\n到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然一百,剛剛講委員提到一百一十一、一百一十二,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是赤字。\n\n01:52.245 --> 02:20.166\n所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健\n\n02:22.248 --> 02:44.221\n我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債啦都是赤字啦\n\n02:51.105 --> 03:11.963\n所以只是稅收那一部分就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多但是呢你如果加計特別預算的話其實是還是赤字啊好了解謝謝政事那本席了解就是說政府的預算因為這個每年都超出稅收這就是人民的納稅錢啦可是因為特別預算\n\n03:14.279 --> 03:31.260\n當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做\n\n03:32.481 --> 03:32.962\n財政收支劃分法\n\n03:47.538 --> 04:05.712\n國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本席是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講\n\n04:07.173 --> 04:24.399\n他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題\n\n04:25.899 --> 04:45.050\n那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上提升\n\n04:45.710 --> 05:10.829\n這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多\n\n05:11.750 --> 05:35.662\n過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點\n\n05:36.622 --> 05:50.280\n是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出\n\n05:51.482 --> 06:14.619\n都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整\n\n06:18.402 --> 06:24.304\n最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。\n\n06:39.929 --> 06:46.272\n對,我們會努力來整合,所以次長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論嘛,對不對?因為這是大約的職權嘛,就是委員自然就可以怎麼決定嘛。\n\n07:01.361 --> 07:21.929\n但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦\n\n07:23.018 --> 07:44.466\n我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我覺得\n\n08:14.899 --> 08:22.506\n謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖次你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好接著我們請\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.41,"end":5.363,"text":"各位委員、各位政府官員、大家午安。師傅有請政事。"},{"start":11.308,"end":28.828,"text":"拜委好,政事好,謝謝,政事辛苦了。首先我要對我們郁真、趙偉表達敬意,他勇於承擔。我常常跟趙偉在聊天,他其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題,他表達他內心非常的"},{"start":31.01,"end":35.773,"text":"財政收支劃分法從民國88年當時配合修憲精神以後都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進其實已經有完全失去地方財政"},{"start":54.771,"end":70.163,"text":"財政的一個健全的一個問題還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效那我想請教這個政事我記得在111年的時候我們這個稅收超徵5000多萬那112年的時候超徵大概3800多111年超徵5000多億然後112年的時候也超徵大概3800多億那113年的時候今年度大概您知不知道說整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢"},{"start":85.274,"end":111.365,"text":"到目前還很難估了,大概目前我們預估大概會超過1000億左右。對,謝謝。對,那這也是跟我目前所了解看到新聞報道。但是我要跟委員報告就是說,雖然一百,剛剛講委員提到一百一十一、一百一十二,雖然我們說是時增數也超過預算數,但是如果是加計,如果特別預算的話,其實是赤字。"},{"start":112.245,"end":140.166,"text":"所以我是從我現在掌握到的資料從101年到114年這十幾年當中只有3年只有一點點剩餘其他的全部都是赤字那相對來講地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上所以就像去年的話其實他剩餘已經達到648億所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政是比中央還要穩健"},{"start":142.248,"end":164.221,"text":"我的理解是這樣所以這是你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢中央政府每年的就是因為特別預算的原因所造成的赤字所以稅生招收的部分不然五千多億、三千多億跟今年預計的一千多億都是被特別預算給吃掉了最主要是特別預算因為我們像比如說像明年我們預計大概舉債大概是2313億所以還是要舉債啦都是赤字啦"},{"start":171.105,"end":191.963,"text":"所以只是稅收那一部分就總預算那一部分是比預算數要多但是呢你如果加計特別預算的話其實是還是赤字啊好了解謝謝政事那本席了解就是說政府的預算因為這個每年都超出稅收這就是人民的納稅錢啦可是因為特別預算"},{"start":194.279,"end":211.26,"text":"當政府認為說政府有赤字所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎?所以正式的意思大概是這樣子對因為如果一下子釋出太多的話中央的很多的施政真的沒辦法做"},{"start":212.481,"end":212.962,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":227.538,"end":245.712,"text":"國防支出都不夠我跟您報告一下從這個明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟這個一般補助信款因為本席是來自新北市中和那新北市只分配到662.05億目前依照現在的分配的整個狀況來講"},{"start":247.173,"end":264.399,"text":"他人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名因為他整體的人數有到400多萬人所以每個人只分配13625也是全球排名倒數第三新北市其實像剛剛您講的中央來講每年都是短處的問題"},{"start":265.899,"end":285.05,"text":"那我想請問一下這個針對六都的部分尤其新北市是六都跑名最後倒數第一人均只有13625就財政部的立場這樣的金額會不會太低啊就是說有沒有未來有沒有說調整公視以後可以把這個數字往上提升"},{"start":285.71,"end":310.829,"text":"這個數字您能接受嗎?剛才委員提到那個新北市663億那個是只有那個是不含那個計劃性補助啦吼如果含計劃性補助的話也許組總那邊對就是說計劃性補助不是每年都一定會有的嗎?對但是基本對阿所以說這個一萬就是說我要拜託這個政策回去也跟財政部討論的部分喔我認為不能六但六都很重要等一下我要提到的其實各縣市也非常重要比如說很多"},{"start":311.75,"end":335.662,"text":"過去大家知道彰化縣與林縣有些就是真的政府都快要付不出錢的問題所以我說這就是為什麼要修財化法的最重要的原因那我是不是請教趁勢說現在目前總共提出了這麼多的版本有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為說是比較可行的或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點"},{"start":336.622,"end":350.28,"text":"是財政部認為說可以來參考的或來執行的我跟委員報告目前22個版本當中幾乎是處理的垂直分配也就是說就是資源釋出"},{"start":351.482,"end":374.619,"text":"都至於說怎麼分配比如剛才委員提到了新北市的問題它怎麼去用什麼指標去把它分配得更合理、更公平這一部分從來都沒有碰到所以我是覺得說目前的這幾個版本可能都不是沒辦法作為一個討論的依據那如果可以的話可能將來就是還要再做一個調整"},{"start":378.402,"end":384.304,"text":"最後我再請問一下,因為我剛剛聽到昭偉有說,就是說昭偉現在就是很希望說進到這個竹條討論,剛剛次長也有說竹條討論是可以解決現況的嗎?竹條討論如果沒有先做先起的這個準備的話,我們現在就在準備啊。"},{"start":399.929,"end":406.272,"text":"對,我們會努力來整合,所以次長不排斥逐條討論,大家一起來討論,來解決現況。這個東西我沒辦法承諾,因為這個我...可以來往這個方向進一步來討論嘛,對不對?因為這是大約的職權嘛,就是委員自然就可以怎麼決定嘛。"},{"start":421.361,"end":441.929,"text":"但是就我的角度來看就我們行政機關的角度來看如果是說在討論之前如果有一個基本的一個大框架的一個共識在主條討論的時候一定會更順利啦如果以目前這樣來看的話我是覺得比現在我是覺得沒有比現在好啦"},{"start":443.018,"end":464.466,"text":"我覺得真的沒有比現在好啦因為為什麼?因為現在的就是他有一些他有一些基本上他有一些這個調整允許啊什麼之類的節償補短都有這些機制但是現在很多新的版本這個機制都沒有了財政努力也沒有了財政機率這些都沒有那我覺得"},{"start":465.486,"end":493.148,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":494.899,"end":502.506,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員,謝謝所以暖次你們要陳述趕快提出版本啊我們一直在等啊好接著我們請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1131,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（15時36分）主席好！各位委員、各位政府官員，大家午安！是不是有請政次？"],["主席：請阮次。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：政次好，謝謝，政次辛苦了，首先我要對我們玉珍召委表達敬意，她勇於承擔。我常常跟召委聊天，她其實對地方長期以來赤字的問題表達內心非常的傷心，所以我相信她現在很努力，就是要來努力幫地方爭取財源，拜託我們政次要來協助。","首先我想要先跟政次報告，財政收支劃分法從民國88年，當時配合修憲精省以後，都沒有因為地方改制而與時俱進，其實已經完全失去地方財政健全的問題，還有中央補助地方的精神以及成效。我想請教政次，我記得在111年的時候，我們稅收超徵五千多億元；112年的時候，超徵大概三千八百多億元；113年的時候，今年度您知不知道整體稅收的狀況有沒有超徵多少錢？"],["阮次長清華：到目前還很難估，目前我們預估會超徵大概1,000億元左右。"],["張委員智倫：對，謝謝，這也是跟我目前所了解、看到的新聞報導是一致的。"],["阮次長清華：但是我要跟委員報告，剛剛講的，委員提到111、112，雖然我們稅收是實徵數有超過預算數，但是如果是加計特別預算的話，其實是赤字，我是從我現在掌握到的資料，從101年到114年，這十幾年當中，只有3年有一點點剩餘，其他的全部都是赤字……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝政次的解釋。"],["阮次長清華：相對來講，地方政府就是這幾年都一直往上，就像去年的話，其實剩餘已經達到648億元，所以目前的狀況是地方政府的財政比中央還要穩健，我的理解是這樣。"],["張委員智倫：所以你的理解是現在中央政府比較缺錢，中央政府每年就是因為特別預算的原因造成赤字，所以稅收超徵的部分，不管五千多億元、三千多億元跟今年預計的一千多億元，都被特別預算給吃掉了。"],["阮次長清華：最主要是特別預算，比如像明年，我們預計舉債大概是2,313億，所以還是要舉債，都是赤字，所以只是稅收那一部分，就總預算那一部分，是比預算數要多，但是你如果加計特別預算的話，其實還是赤字。"],["張委員智倫：好，了解，謝謝政次。本席了解政府的預算每年都超徵稅收，這都是人民的納稅錢，可是因為特別預算讓政府認為政府有赤字，所以遲遲不能通過這個財政收支劃分法，把一些政府的預算編列到地方嗎？所以政次的意思大概是這樣子。"],["阮次長清華：對，如果一下子釋出太多的話，中央很多施政真的沒辦法做，像國民黨版，一下增加四千多億元，4,000億元我們算的結果就是中央可以用的錢大概剩下三千六百多億元，三千六百多億元連國防支出都不夠……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝政次，我跟您報告一下，從明年的中央統籌分配稅款跟一般補助款……本席是來自新北市中和，新北市只分配到662.05億元，依照現在分配的整個狀況來講，人均還是六都裡面排名最後一名，因為它整體的人數有到四百多萬人，所以每個人只分配1萬3,625元，也是全國排名倒數第三，新北市其實像您剛剛講的，中央每年都是短絀的問題。我想請問一下，針對六都的部分，尤其新北市是六都排名倒數第一，人均只有1萬3,625元，就財政部的立場，這樣的金額會不會太低？未來有沒有說調整公式以後，可以把這個數字往上提升？這個數字您能接受嗎？"],["阮次長清華：剛才委員提到新北市663億元，那個是不含計畫型補助，如果含計畫型補助的話，待會兒也許主總那邊可以來補充……"],["張委員智倫：計畫型補助不是每年都一定會有的嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，但是基本上因為……"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我要拜託政次回去，也是跟財政部討論的部分，我認為當然六都很重要，等一下我要提到的，其實各縣市也非常重要，比如過去大家知道彰化縣、雲林縣，有些政府真的都有快要付不出錢的問題……"],["阮次長清華：是的。"],["張委員智倫：所以我說這就是為什麼要修財劃法最重要的原因。"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["張委員智倫：我是不是請教政次，目前總共提出了這麼多的版本，有沒有哪一個版本是現在財政部認為比較可行的，或是裡面其中有哪一個委員提到的點是財政部認為可以來參考或執行的？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，目前22個版本當中幾乎只處理的就是垂直分配，也就是資源釋出，至於怎麼分配，比如剛才委員提到新北市的問題，要用什麼指標把它分配得更合理、更公平，這一部分從來都沒有碰到，所以我是覺得目前的這幾個版本可能都沒辦法作為一個討論的依據，如果可以的話，可能將來還要再做一個調整，才有辦法……"],["張委員智倫：最後，我再請問一下，因為我剛剛聽到召委有說，就是召委現在很希望進到逐條討論，剛剛次長也有說逐條討論是可以解決現況的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：逐條討論如果沒有先做先期的準備的話……"],["張委員智倫：我們現在就在準備啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，我們會努力來整合，再努力地整合……"],["張委員智倫：所以次長不排斥逐條討論，大家一起來討論，來解決現況。"],["阮次長清華：這個東西我沒辦法承諾，因為這個我……"],["張委員智倫：可以來往這個方向進一步來討論，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：但是這個是大院的職權，就是委員自然就可以決定嘛！但是就我的角度來看，就我們行政機關的角度來看，如果是在討論之前有一個基本大框架的共識，在逐條討論的時候，一定會更順利，如果以目前這樣來看的話，我是覺得沒有比現在好，我覺得真的沒有比現在好，為什麼？因為現在的基本上有一些調整盈虛什麼之類的、截長補短，都有這些機制，但是現在很多新的版本，這個機制都沒有了，財政努力也沒有了，財政紀律這些都沒有。我的理解，會不會就是卓院長講的現在版本是最好的版本，我猜想可能就是還沒有更好的之前，也許現在是最好的，為什麼？因為大家就照目前這樣一直分配下去，地方也拿到最多的錢。但是我覺得當然每一個想法不一樣，我們還是很多東西都可以再進一步討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員，謝謝。阮次，所以你們要趕快提出版本啊！我們一直在等啊！","接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}