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{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 237.929, \"end\": 238.31, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 238.31, \"end\": 238.63, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 238.63, \"end\": 238.81, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 238.81, \"end\": 239.03, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 239.03, \"end\": 239.43, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 239.43, \"end\": 239.611, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 239.611, \"end\": 239.711, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 239.711, \"end\": 240.291, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 240.291, \"end\": 240.471, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 240.471, \"end\": 240.651, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 240.651, \"end\": 243.173, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"複\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 243.173, \"end\": 245.914, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 302.724, \"end\": 302.924, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 302.924, \"end\": 303.245, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 303.245, \"end\": 303.705, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 303.705, \"end\": 304.926, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 304.926, \"end\": 305.146, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 305.146, \"end\": 305.286, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 305.286, \"end\": 305.786, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 305.786, \"end\": 306.007, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 306.007, \"end\": 306.027, \"score\": 0.976}]}, {\"start\": 307.447, \"end\": 316.203, \"text\": \"另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 307.447, \"end\": 307.668, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": 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\"因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 384.443, \"end\": 385.563, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 385.563, \"end\": 385.703, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 385.703, \"end\": 385.864, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 385.864, \"end\": 386.004, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 386.004, \"end\": 386.264, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 386.264, \"end\": 386.484, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 386.484, \"end\": 386.844, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 386.844, \"end\": 387.064, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 387.064, \"end\": 387.284, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 387.284, \"end\": 387.944, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 387.944, \"end\": 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\"end\": 793.866, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 793.866, \"end\": 793.906, \"score\": 0.308}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 793.906, \"end\": 794.006, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 794.006, \"end\": 794.126, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 794.126, \"end\": 794.287, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 794.287, \"end\": 794.407, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 794.407, \"end\": 794.427, \"score\": 0.646}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,289 --> 00:00:03,030\n謝謝主席,有請次長\n\n2\n00:00:17,589 --> 00:00:45,463\n委員好次長好主席長好大家都累了很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們去回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五那也通過了\n\n3\n00:00:46,522 --> 00:01:04,874\n就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖\n\n4\n00:01:06,633 --> 00:01:08,594\n請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字\n\n5\n00:01:28,922 --> 00:01:40,886\n一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問\n\n6\n00:01:55,262 --> 00:02:02,599\n如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?\n\n7\n00:02:04,339 --> 00:02:27,444\n我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該\n\n8\n00:02:33,087 --> 00:02:39,437\n應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業\n\n9\n00:02:44,012 --> 00:03:07,098\n因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分\n\n10\n00:03:07,498 --> 00:03:21,207\n那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以\n\n11\n00:03:22,527 --> 00:03:39,708\n這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的\n\n12\n00:03:44,281 --> 00:04:07,595\n可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是\n\n13\n00:04:08,775 --> 00:04:13,887\n我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:15,373 --> 00:04:41,533\n不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁\n\n15\n00:04:43,410 --> 00:05:06,027\n今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案\n\n16\n00:05:07,447 --> 00:05:16,203\n另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作\n\n17\n00:05:17,950 --> 00:05:42,244\n這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比\n\n18\n00:05:43,805 --> 00:05:44,365\n他們一直提到說\n\n19\n00:06:04,261 --> 00:06:23,202\n因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說\n\n20\n00:06:24,443 --> 00:06:48,972\n因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半\n\n21\n00:06:49,532 --> 00:07:06,595\n但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個\n\n22\n00:07:07,897 --> 00:07:21,372\n來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了\n\n23\n00:07:22,093 --> 00:07:46,451\n其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了\n\n24\n00:07:48,677 --> 00:08:15,554\n現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛\n\n25\n00:08:18,666 --> 00:08:24,442\n你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%\n\n26\n00:08:28,094 --> 00:08:54,520\n現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎\n\n27\n00:08:55,677 --> 00:09:24,812\n因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的\n\n28\n00:09:27,637 --> 00:09:52,082\n撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?\n\n29\n00:09:55,220 --> 00:10:22,634\n欸你們都你看剛才我有的問題你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份\n\n30\n00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:32,612\n提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著\n\n31\n00:10:52,813 --> 00:11:11,899\n沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛\n\n32\n00:11:16,772 --> 00:11:40,887\n所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇\n\n33\n00:11:42,887 --> 00:11:50,010\n是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們\n\n34\n00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:41,031\n其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊\n\n35\n00:12:42,546 --> 00:12:53,819\n也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通\n\n36\n00:12:55,069 --> 00:13:14,427\n給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2289\t3030\t謝謝主席,有請次長\n17589\t45463\t委員好次長好主席長好大家都累了很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們去回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五那也通過了\n46522\t64874\t就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖\n66633\t68594\t請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字\n88922\t100886\t一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問\n115262\t122599\t如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?\n124339\t147444\t我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該\n153087\t159437\t應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業\n164012\t187098\t因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分\n187498\t201207\t那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以\n202527\t219708\t這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的\n224281\t247595\t可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是\n248775\t253887\t我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?\n255373\t281533\t不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁\n283410\t306027\t今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案\n307447\t316203\t另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作\n317950\t342244\t這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比\n343805\t344365\t他們一直提到說\n364261\t383202\t因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說\n384443\t408972\t因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半\n409532\t426595\t但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個\n427897\t441372\t來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了\n442093\t466451\t其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了\n468677\t495554\t現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛\n498666\t504442\t你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%\n508094\t534520\t現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎\n535677\t564812\t因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的\n567637\t592082\t撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?\n595220\t622634\t欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題 你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份\n624110\t632612\t提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著\n652813\t671899\t沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛\n676772\t700887\t所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇\n702887\t710010\t是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們\n733140\t761031\t其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊\n762546\t773819\t也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通\n775069\t794427\t給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請次長\n委員好次長好主席長好大家都累了很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們去回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五那也通過了\n就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖\n請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字\n一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問\n如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?\n我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該\n應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業\n因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分\n那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以\n這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的\n可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是\n我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?\n不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁\n今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案\n另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作\n這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比\n他們一直提到說\n因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說\n因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半\n但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個\n來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了\n其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了\n現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛\n你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%\n現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎\n因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的\n撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?\n欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題 你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份\n提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著\n沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛\n所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇\n是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們\n其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊\n也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通\n給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.289 --> 00:03.030\n謝謝主席,有請次長\n\n00:17.589 --> 00:45.463\n委員好次長好主席長好大家都累了很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們去回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五那也通過了\n\n00:46.522 --> 01:04.874\n就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖\n\n01:06.633 --> 01:08.594\n請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字\n\n01:28.922 --> 01:40.886\n一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問\n\n01:55.262 --> 02:02.599\n如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?\n\n02:04.339 --> 02:27.444\n我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該\n\n02:33.087 --> 02:39.437\n應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業\n\n02:44.012 --> 03:07.098\n因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分\n\n03:07.498 --> 03:21.207\n那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以\n\n03:22.527 --> 03:39.708\n這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的\n\n03:44.281 --> 04:07.595\n可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是\n\n04:08.775 --> 04:13.887\n我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?\n\n04:15.373 --> 04:41.533\n不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁\n\n04:43.410 --> 05:06.027\n今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案\n\n05:07.447 --> 05:16.203\n另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作\n\n05:17.950 --> 05:42.244\n這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比\n\n05:43.805 --> 05:44.365\n他們一直提到說\n\n06:04.261 --> 06:23.202\n因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說\n\n06:24.443 --> 06:48.972\n因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半\n\n06:49.532 --> 07:06.595\n但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個\n\n07:07.897 --> 07:21.372\n來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了\n\n07:22.093 --> 07:46.451\n其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了\n\n07:48.677 --> 08:15.554\n現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛\n\n08:18.666 --> 08:24.442\n你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%\n\n08:28.094 --> 08:54.520\n現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎\n\n08:55.677 --> 09:24.812\n因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的\n\n09:27.637 --> 09:52.082\n撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?\n\n09:55.220 --> 10:22.634\n欸你們都你看剛才我有的問題你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份\n\n10:24.110 --> 10:32.612\n提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著\n\n10:52.813 --> 11:11.899\n沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛\n\n11:16.772 --> 11:40.887\n所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇\n\n11:42.887 --> 11:50.010\n是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們\n\n12:13.140 --> 12:41.031\n其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊\n\n12:42.546 --> 12:53.819\n也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通\n\n12:55.069 --> 13:14.427\n給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.289,"end":3.03,"text":"謝謝主席,有請次長"},{"start":17.589,"end":45.463,"text":"委員好次長好主席長好大家都累了很辛苦其實我想我們的國家應該有很多的事情都需要你們去回去做財事但是還是很謝謝主席安排因為很多的東西也很值得討論請教一下因為最近我們收到一個新的提案在禮拜五那也通過了"},{"start":46.522,"end":64.874,"text":"就是就一些來就教一些名詞,因為這些名詞都很專門。可能一般人啊,如果用說文解字的方式去理解、解讀這些專門的術語,恐怕會鬧出很大的笑話。那我就請教﹖"},{"start":66.633,"end":68.594,"text":"請教一下那個所謂的剩餘有兩種詞同音異字"},{"start":88.922,"end":100.886,"text":"一個剩是剩下的剩,那一個是專門在用的那個剩餘,肉字旁,然後旁邊有個貝。請問這兩個詞有什麼差異?那我問簡單一點好了。好,請問"},{"start":115.262,"end":122.599,"text":"如果收入跟支出相減,如果得出來的是正,那個叫做什麼?"},{"start":124.339,"end":147.444,"text":"我跟委員報告一下通常都是說收支會有差短也有可能會有剩餘那我們目前的做法是這樣剩餘的時候我們都還債市長可以直接解釋名詞就好了就是收入跟支出相減如果得到的是正的話那那個叫做什麼剩餘還是短處那個我們應該"},{"start":153.087,"end":159.437,"text":"應該是...應該算是...算是等於是...我們就有...還是我應該問主計長?問主計長,這個稅計攝影師,記專業"},{"start":164.012,"end":187.098,"text":"因為收支剩餘它是有含舉債啦舉債收入所以你的收入裡面除了稅入之外含有一個借款的收入那所以你如果舉借的話它就叫做收支啦收支的剩餘那所以你用哪一個剩其實是都是一樣只是一個是收支一個是稅入那稅入的部分是沒有包括舉債的部分"},{"start":187.498,"end":201.207,"text":"那個是叫做稅入稅出的勝於那你如果有舉債的一個收入你如果稅入稅出是短處經過我去舉債收入的加進來那你就會有收支的勝於是這樣欸那所以"},{"start":202.527,"end":219.708,"text":"這樣子回答我們族人很多百姓應該聽不懂我就簡單的問簡單的答如果我說剩餘我講的是那個肉字旁的剩如果我講說剩餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣可以這樣講嗎可以的"},{"start":224.281,"end":247.595,"text":"可是說文解字上肉字旁的剩它的意思是指什麼呢?它是指多出來增加爭議所以意思一樣嗎?在我們運用上是一樣的那我再請教一下如果我說複數短處67億然後把它說成是"},{"start":248.775,"end":253.887,"text":"我們的原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了,要破產了可以嗎?"},{"start":255.373,"end":281.533,"text":"不對啦,因為基金它不是用說它是有短促還是剩餘稅率稅率才算短促但是這個基金因為它主要都是我撥款國庫撥款進去到基金裡面它用完了然後將來我再撥款進去它就又有錢可以用是這樣所以你如果這用短促來講的話我就覺得是比較好那我就原用逐字稿來問齁"},{"start":283.41,"end":306.027,"text":"今天早上正天才委員有說因為財源不足67億然後呢我們的這個禮拜五送出來的提案呢他說114年預估累積短處高達67億正委員是說因為這樣所以我們提案"},{"start":307.447,"end":316.203,"text":"另外,提案說明嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作"},{"start":317.95,"end":342.244,"text":"這個我再補充說明一下就是說第一個我是每一年會算那我今年的收入減掉支出它就會有短處短處但是我基金它會整體是嘛我要講的就是這樣嘛我們所謂的短處當然就是指當年度的收入跟支出嘛我要的就是這一句話要不然他們聽不懂當年度的收入和支出去比"},{"start":343.805,"end":344.365,"text":"他們一直提到說"},{"start":364.261,"end":383.202,"text":"因為依照預算法第4條這個是特種基金下的作業基金然後提到一直提到一個字凡經付出仍可收回因此去表達說這一句話的意思又是字面的解讀他們說"},{"start":384.443,"end":408.972,"text":"因為這個指的是要收回來的例如我們綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務放出去要收回來所以他們認為淨化補償金不可以這樣用沒有淨化補償裡面呢它以往它是由我們基金因為它都是國庫撥補的錢啦它是由淨化基金裡面去做負擔各負擔一半"},{"start":409.532,"end":426.595,"text":"但是他從去年開始、112年開始他是全部由國庫撥補的錢去沒有用他之前的聖語去支印那國庫撥補的錢呢依照原住民那個基本法裡面他有規定我這個基金的一個"},{"start":427.897,"end":441.372,"text":"來源包括淨化補償的一個撥入款所以我可以從國庫撥進去再由基金裡面列計劃來支出那這樣以後如果不足我還是從以後年度來撥補就好了"},{"start":442.093,"end":466.451,"text":"其實主席長說得很清楚因為我過去為這個希望全部編載公務預算我也質詢過朱主席長很多次那也謝謝他聽到我的聲音但是這不代表著我這樣做那樣做哪一個是違法對不對都是合法嘛都是依法編列嘛你們三位都有點頭嘛好那我就要問了"},{"start":468.677,"end":495.554,"text":"現在我們的綜合發展基金也有發一些中低收入戶給他做所謂的一個補助、修繕的補助、買房子的補助這個可以收回嗎?那你講到基金我就要談了因為我也質詢過原住民綜合發展基金啊很辛苦因為我們正常的預放比應該是0.17%左右嘛"},{"start":498.666,"end":504.442,"text":"你們知不知道原住民綜合發展基金的預放比曾經在某一個年度20%"},{"start":508.094,"end":534.52,"text":"現在呢一直去講現在好像比較好了但是還是8%還是相當高屬於不正常的預放比那請教一下財政部次長請教一下主計長你們有放棄過我們的預放比20%那麼高是一個天數你們有放棄過撥補原住民的綜合發展基金嗎"},{"start":535.677,"end":564.812,"text":"因為原住民政府發展基金他是一次撥100億進去然後一直用用到現在譬如說他剩下50億你們累我有查過從95年開始你們撥進去一直到現在199億對撥足如果你再有不足我們以後再看我們的財政狀況分年再一直撥補那我問我再請教最後一個問題請問花東基金這種定額式的"},{"start":567.637,"end":592.082,"text":"撥補400億進去之後,花完了就沒有了。跟我們這種,我請教主席長,哪個好?要你選你要哪一個?花東基金也是剩下還是有剩下,但是也是有在撥補啦。是這樣子。那要撥到什麼時候?其實情形都雷同啦。所以你的意思說花東基金也可以源源不絕?"},{"start":595.22,"end":622.634,"text":"欸 你們都 你看剛才我有的問題 你們點頭如搗蒜現在這種問題是面面相覷不知道要怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員當然重點是撥補基金要看他實際的需求那如果花東地區他有實際的需求我們還是會看他的因為剩下6秒齁 5秒我問最後一個問題如果說像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份"},{"start":624.11,"end":632.612,"text":"提案、修正提案我是覺得錯誤處處啦阿如果進負二讀然後三讀通過我請教一下財政部次長您覺得如何就是關於基金這部分我是不是還是請總書記這邊來至少至少我很高興至少我很高興從一開始一直緊咬著"},{"start":652.813,"end":671.899,"text":"沒有依法編列後來發現105年主計總署你們早就發公文給原民會告訴他們怎麼編經費來源從哪裡主計總署如果你發的公文是不合法的我看中華民國政府要倒了啦阿如果基金發不出來也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦所以這個是假議題嘛"},{"start":676.772,"end":700.887,"text":"所以我的意思是說今天依法編列大家已經懂了要求一定要全額從公務預算大家也不堅持了從哪裡可以得到證明從禮拜五的這個提案幫基金找錢但是基金會真的沒有錢嗎所以是不是一場鬧劇"},{"start":702.887,"end":710.01,"text":"是不是根本整個假議題有需要為這種假議題來綁全國的中央總預算嗎我原住民擔當不起所以我覺得這種溝通我希望大家要去溝通真的我們現在原住民整個錯誤的資訊政府欺負原住民沒有依法編列看不起我們"},{"start":733.14,"end":761.031,"text":"其實根本只需烏有的事情可是對我們的內耗對整個全國的財政大家的預算知識體大我沒有想到只需烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大我覺得我很難過我也不希望讓人家錯誤的看待原住民不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況啊"},{"start":762.546,"end":773.819,"text":"也不是每個原住民會胡說八道我在這個地方就拜託我覺得政府你們行政各部門有義務要去溝通"},{"start":775.069,"end":794.427,"text":"給予正確的資訊然後希望趕快把事情解決謝謝主席、謝謝次長、謝謝主席長謝謝吳立法委員、謝謝主席長跟我們次長其實因為金門也有離島建設金所以我理解吳立法委員的說法那其他像政經委員他們的提案意思就是說基金已經快要沒有了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：還是我應該問主計長？"],["主席：問主計長，這個歲計賸餘是主計專業啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為收支賸餘有含舉債收入，所以你的收入裡面，除了歲入之外，還有一個借款的收入，你如果舉借的話，它就叫做收支的賸餘，所以你用哪一個賸其實都是一樣，只是一個是收支，一個是歲入，歲入的部分沒有包括舉債的部分，那個是叫做歲入歲出的賸餘，你如果歲入歲出是短絀，經過去舉債收入加進來，那你就會有收支的賸餘，是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這樣子回答，我們族人、很多百姓應該聽不懂，我就簡單的問、簡單的答，如果我說賸餘，我講的是那個肉字旁的賸，如果我說賸餘跟剩下的剩餘意思完全一樣，可以這樣講嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是說文解字上，肉字旁的賸，它的意思是指什麼呢？它是指多出來增加、增益，所以意思一樣嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：在我們運用上是一樣的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再請教一下，如果我說短絀67億元，然後把它說成是原住民族綜合發展基金已經沒有錢了，要破產了，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不對啦！因為基金它不是用它有短絀還是賸餘，歲入歲出才去算短絀，但是這個基金因為它主要都是國庫撥款進去基金裡面，它用完了，將來我們再撥款進去，它就又有錢可以用，是這樣的。所以這裡如果用短絀來說的話，我覺得比較……"],["主席：用不足，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不足……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那本席就援用逐字稿來問，今天早上鄭天財委員說財源不足67億元，這個禮拜五送出來的提案是說114年預估累積短絀高達67億元，鄭委員是說因為這樣，所以他們提案。另外，這個提案說明也提到，嚴重影響原住民綜合發展基金之運作。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我再補充說明一下，第一個，我們是每一年都會計算，今年的收入減掉支出，它就會有短絀，但是基金會就整體來看……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛！本席要說的就是這樣……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。所以……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所謂的短絀當然是指當年度的收入和支出嘛！本席要的就是這句話，要不然他們聽不懂。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當年度的收入和支出相比之後不夠，用歷年的累積添補……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，用歷年的累積來補充嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但基金還是有餘額，所以它是足夠支應的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。而且餘額淨值是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：67億元嘛！不是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席看到的是50億元啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，基金還有錢嘛！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席再請教另外一個問題，依照預算法第四條，因為這是特種基金下的作業基金，所以他們一直提到一句話，凡經付出，仍可收回，依字面解讀，他們說這是要收回來的，例如綜合發展基金應該是做貸款業務，放出去的要收回來，所以他們認為禁伐補償金不可以這樣做。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有。禁伐補償以往是由基金……因為都是國庫撥補的錢啦！它是由基金負擔，兩者各負擔一半。但是從去年（112）年開始，全部由國庫撥補款項，沒有用之前的賸餘支應……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳主計長淑姿：國庫撥補的錢，依照原住民族基本法的規定，這個基金的來源包括禁伐補償的撥入款，所以可以從國庫撥進去，再由基金列計畫支出，如果不足，以後年度再撥補就好了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，主計長說的很清楚。過去為了讓這筆經費全部編在公務預算，其實本席也質詢過朱主計長很多次，也謝謝他聽到本席的聲音。但是這不代表這樣做、那樣做，哪一個做法就是違法的，對不對？都是合法的嘛！都是依法編列嘛！你們三位都有點頭嘛！好，那本席就要問了，現在綜合發展基金也有補助一些中低收入戶，例如修繕補助、買房子的補助，這個可以收回嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，所以它不見得每一筆都收回。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。既然說到基金，那本席就要談下面這個議題，因為本席也質詢過。原住民綜合發展基金很辛苦，正常的逾放比應該是0.17%左右，但是你們知不知道，原住民綜合發展基金的逾放比，曾經在某一個年度高達20%。經過一直講，現在好像比較好了，但還是有8%，還是相當高，屬於不正常的逾放比。請教一下財政部次長、主計長，你們有放棄過嗎？逾放比20%那麼高，這是一個天文數字，你們有放棄過撥補原住民綜合發展基金嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為原住民綜合發展基金是一次撥100億元進去，然後一直用到現在，例如剩下50億元，如果……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席有查過，你們從95年開始撥進去，一直到現在有199億元。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，撥足，如果再有不足，以後會看我們的財政狀況再分年撥補，是這樣子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：本席再請教最後一個問題，請問花東基金這種定額式的，撥補400億元進去之後，花完了就沒有了，和這種相比，請教主計長哪一種比較好？如果讓你選，你要哪一個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：花東基金還有剩，但是也是有在撥補啦！其實情形都雷同啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那要撥到什麼時候？所以你的意思是說，花東基金也可以源源不絕？你看，剛才有些問題你們點頭如搗蒜，現在這種問題卻面面相覷，不知道怎麼回答才不會得罪某個委員。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然，重點是撥補基金要看實際需求，如果花東地區有實際需求，我們還是會看它的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為剩下5、6秒，本席問最後一個問題。像我們禮拜五拿到的這一份修正提案，本席覺得處處都是錯誤啦！如果逕付二讀，然後三讀通過，請教一下財政部次長，您覺得如何？"],["阮次長清華：關於基金的部分，是否還是請主計總處說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，本席很高興，從一開始一直緊咬著沒有依法編列，後來發現105年主計總處早就發公文給原民會，告訴他們怎麼編列、經費來源是哪裡。主計總處，如果你們發的公文是不合法的，那中華民國政府也要倒了啦！如果基金發不出來，也表示中華民國政府要倒了啦！所以這是假議題嘛！","本席的意思是說，今天依法編列這個部分，大家已經懂了，原本要求一定要全額從公務預算支出，現在大家也不堅持了，從哪裡可以得到證明？從禮拜五這個提案，因為它就在幫基金找錢，但是基金真的沒有錢嗎？所以是不是一場鬧劇？是不是根本就是假議題？有需要為這種假議題綑綁全國的中央總預算嗎？我們原住民擔當不起。","所以本席希望大家要溝通，真的，現在原住民接收到的都是錯誤資訊，政府欺負原住民，沒有依法編列，看不起我們，其實根本都是子虛烏有，這是在內耗，會影響到全國的財政、大家的預算，茲事體大。本席沒有想到這種子虛烏有的事情可以搞到這麼大，本席很難過，也不希望大家錯誤的看待原住民，不是每一個原住民都搞不清楚狀況，也不是每個原住民都會胡說八道。","本席在這裡拜託，政府各行政部門有義務要去溝通，要給予正確的資訊，希望趕快解決這件事情。謝謝主席，謝謝次長，謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，謝謝主計長和次長。因為金門也有離島建設基金，所以本席理解伍麗華委員的說法。鄭天財委員的提案是說，基金已經快要沒有錢了，要早一點、多撥補一點錢到裡頭，不要等到要用的時候才去要，好像乞丐一樣。就像我們現在修財政收支劃分法一樣，縣市政府就應該有錢，這樣運作起來比較順暢。","如果總預算真的如伍委員所說，比如公務預算編4萬元，原住民基金編2萬元，如果伍麗華委員是卓院長的話，這件事情就解決了嘛！現在就是卓院長應該也沒有承諾4+2這樣編列，如果有的話，這件事情就解決了嘛！好，謝謝。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}