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\"你\", \"start\": 681.566, \"end\": 681.726, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 681.726, \"end\": 681.946, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 681.946, \"end\": 681.966, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 683.957, \"end\": 684.097, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 684.097, \"end\": 684.117, \"score\": 0.638}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,409 --> 00:00:23,166\n黃珊珊委員現在主席我請次長還有主席長陳主席長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:30,823 --> 00:00:54,706\n首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本\n\n3\n00:00:55,885 --> 00:01:06,513\n主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?\n\n4\n00:01:08,622 --> 00:01:29,398\n那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:37,284 --> 00:01:41,515\n以目前來講的話,大部分縣市原則上都有滿足\n\n6\n00:01:43,328 --> 00:02:09,424\n因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由了我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過市長你讓我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢你覺得合理不合理\n\n7\n00:02:10,705 --> 00:02:24,746\n這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4000億不合理你告訴我多少億合理\n\n8\n00:02:25,367 --> 00:02:43,084\n那我的意思是說我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題,因為這個東西還要跟最主要...你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?\n\n9\n00:02:44,005 --> 00:03:08,407\n沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來\n\n10\n00:03:09,710 --> 00:03:27,881\n金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億\n\n11\n00:03:29,022 --> 00:03:54,725\n水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長\n\n12\n00:03:55,666 --> 00:04:20,100\n到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個原則所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大事實的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理\n\n13\n00:04:24,232 --> 00:04:50,026\n下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個\n\n14\n00:04:51,397 --> 00:05:16,978\n各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反\n\n15\n00:05:17,859 --> 00:05:35,681\n地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:36,822 --> 00:06:03,345\n不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修《財化法》2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉\n\n17\n00:06:04,566 --> 00:06:17,359\n這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的。那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長。你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務。你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。好。\n\n18\n00:06:25,137 --> 00:06:43,196\n接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本\n\n19\n00:06:44,532 --> 00:07:03,548\n這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同\n\n20\n00:07:04,625 --> 00:07:22,915\n我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分\n\n21\n00:07:24,085 --> 00:07:50,138\n獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二\n\n22\n00:07:51,741 --> 00:07:56,459\n相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且\n\n23\n00:07:57,406 --> 00:08:22,265\n只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的\n\n24\n00:08:22,745 --> 00:08:48,692\n是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完\n\n25\n00:08:49,392 --> 00:09:15,806\n第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的\n\n26\n00:09:16,266 --> 00:09:27,421\n第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的\n\n27\n00:09:28,578 --> 00:09:56,023\n因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了\n\n28\n00:09:56,683 --> 00:10:12,478\n所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告\n\n29\n00:10:13,098 --> 00:10:29,449\n我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個\n\n30\n00:10:30,309 --> 00:10:57,092\n所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府\n\n31\n00:10:57,873 --> 00:11:21,966\n只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法\n\n32\n00:11:23,957 --> 00:11:24,117\n謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n409\t23166\t黃珊珊委員現在主席我請次長還有主席長陳主席長委員好\n30823\t54706\t首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本\n55885\t66513\t主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?\n68622\t89398\t那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?\n97284\t101515\t以目前來講的話,大部分縣市原則上都有滿足\n103328\t129424\t因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由了我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過市長你讓我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢你覺得合理不合理\n130705\t144746\t這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4000億不合理你告訴我多少億合理\n145367\t163084\t那我的意思是說我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題,因為這個東西還要跟最主要...你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?\n164005\t188407\t沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來\n189710\t207881\t金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億\n209022\t234725\t水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長\n235666\t260100\t到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個原則所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大事實的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理\n264232\t290026\t下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個\n291397\t316978\t各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反\n317859\t335681\t地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?\n336822\t363345\t不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修《財化法》2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉\n364566\t377359\t這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的。那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長。你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務。你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。好。\n385137\t403196\t接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本\n404532\t423548\t這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同\n424625\t442915\t我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分\n444085\t470138\t獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二\n471741\t476459\t相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且\n477406\t502265\t只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的\n502745\t528692\t是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完\n529392\t555806\t第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的\n556266\t567421\t第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的\n568578\t596023\t因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了\n596683\t612478\t所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告\n613098\t629449\t我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個\n630309\t657092\t所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府\n657873\t681966\t只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法\n683957\t684117\t謝謝主席\n","txt":"黃珊珊委員現在主席我請次長還有主席長陳主席長委員好\n首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本\n主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?\n那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?\n以目前來講的話,大部分縣市原則上都有滿足\n因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由了我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過市長你讓我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢你覺得合理不合理\n這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4000億不合理你告訴我多少億合理\n那我的意思是說我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題,因為這個東西還要跟最主要...你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?\n沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來\n金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億\n水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長\n到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個原則所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大事實的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理\n下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個\n各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反\n地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?\n不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修《財化法》2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉\n這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的。那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長。你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務。你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。好。\n接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本\n這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同\n我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分\n獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二\n相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且\n只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的\n是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完\n第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的\n第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的\n因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了\n所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告\n我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個\n所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府\n只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法\n謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.409 --> 00:23.166\n黃珊珊委員現在主席我請次長還有主席長陳主席長委員好\n\n00:30.823 --> 00:54.706\n首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本\n\n00:55.885 --> 01:06.513\n主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?\n\n01:08.622 --> 01:29.398\n那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?\n\n01:37.284 --> 01:41.515\n以目前來講的話,大部分縣市原則上都有滿足\n\n01:43.328 --> 02:09.424\n因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由了我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過市長你讓我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢你覺得合理不合理\n\n02:10.705 --> 02:24.746\n這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4000億不合理你告訴我多少億合理\n\n02:25.367 --> 02:43.084\n那我的意思是說我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題,因為這個東西還要跟最主要...你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?\n\n02:44.005 --> 03:08.407\n沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來\n\n03:09.710 --> 03:27.881\n金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億\n\n03:29.022 --> 03:54.725\n水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長\n\n03:55.666 --> 04:20.100\n到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個原則所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大事實的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理\n\n04:24.232 --> 04:50.026\n下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個\n\n04:51.397 --> 05:16.978\n各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反\n\n05:17.859 --> 05:35.681\n地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?\n\n05:36.822 --> 06:03.345\n不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修《財化法》2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉\n\n06:04.566 --> 06:17.359\n這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的。那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長。你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務。你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。好。\n\n06:25.137 --> 06:43.196\n接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本\n\n06:44.532 --> 07:03.548\n這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同\n\n07:04.625 --> 07:22.915\n我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分\n\n07:24.085 --> 07:50.138\n獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二\n\n07:51.741 --> 07:56.459\n相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且\n\n07:57.406 --> 08:22.265\n只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的\n\n08:22.745 --> 08:48.692\n是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完\n\n08:49.392 --> 09:15.806\n第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的\n\n09:16.266 --> 09:27.421\n第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的\n\n09:28.578 --> 09:56.023\n因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了\n\n09:56.683 --> 10:12.478\n所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告\n\n10:13.098 --> 10:29.449\n我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個\n\n10:30.309 --> 10:57.092\n所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府\n\n10:57.873 --> 11:21.966\n只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法\n\n11:23.957 --> 11:24.117\n謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.409,"end":23.166,"text":"黃珊珊委員現在主席我請次長還有主席長陳主席長委員好"},{"start":30.823,"end":54.706,"text":"首先謝謝主席今天我們也聽了一整天各個委員的發表意見當然剛剛也聽到次長講了很多其實一整天包括從我們上個會期開始我們提案到現在都在給財政部時間跟地方政府溝通然後我們在等你們的版本看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本禮拜三的逐條審查的時候你們依然沒有版本"},{"start":55.885,"end":66.513,"text":"主席長我想問你一下你從台南市來你曾經說過財政收支劃分法必要要修你到現在認為不用修了嗎?當了主席長有沒有換腦袋?"},{"start":68.622,"end":89.398,"text":"那時候90年的時候台灣市的負債是92.36那我們必須3年內達成降低到45%所以那時候薪水花不出來然後公務人員所有的旅費啊相關的費用通通減那還是一樣沒辦法但是現在都改善了現在我們縣市裡面剩餘所以你認為這樣子就不用修了是嗎?"},{"start":97.284,"end":101.515,"text":"以目前來講的話,大部分縣市原則上都有滿足"},{"start":103.328,"end":129.424,"text":"因為就這個邏輯就是因為改善了所以不用修是嗎財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由了我們從來沒有講說因為改善了就不用修因為我們的修法其中一個原則我剛才也報告過市長你讓我問完問題你再說好嗎你今天說國民黨的4千多億那民眾黨的2千多億呢你覺得合理不合理"},{"start":130.705,"end":144.746,"text":"這個就是還是要看這個整個中央的資源夠不夠財政部認為多少億合理我們很難認定說要多少你今天講了一整天4000億不合理你告訴我多少億合理"},{"start":145.367,"end":163.084,"text":"那我的意思是說我們...垂直分配,你告訴我多少是合理的,是財政部可以接受放下這個垂直分配的門檻?因為我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題,因為這個東西還要跟最主要...你只要回答我的問題,你認為多少是合理的?"},{"start":164.005,"end":188.407,"text":"沒有答案因為最主要是我們跟地方政府的水平的分配這一部分還沒有共識我現在問你的是垂直分配你認為多少是合理對中央政府的運作不會受影響是一千億、兩千億還是三千億因為你說四千億會影響嗎因為這個我們要盤點就是我們對中央的所以我的意思是說不要在這邊鬼打牆第一先把垂直分配定下來"},{"start":189.71,"end":207.881,"text":"金額多了再來討論水平分配的公式這才是針對財政收支劃分法最好的方法否則你每天用水平分配來搪塞我覺得這件事情非常不負責任也就是說如果你認為4千億不行那你認為多少可以但是增加了2千億或3千億"},{"start":209.022,"end":234.725,"text":"水平分配就以你們現在的你們認為最好的分配方式他就是可以拿出來討論的可是你們現在的問題是第一我不跟你討論隨時分配第二我一直拿水平分配來跟你鬼扯我覺得財政部從我們提案到現在都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本或者是你們的立場這一點我覺得是非常不負責任的從部長到院長"},{"start":235.666,"end":260.1,"text":"到你今天的回答告訴我你認為多少是合理的我們跟委員報告我們現在就是我們修法一個原則所以你現在還是沒有答案其實是有包括擴大事實的規模那我就來看看吧什麼叫合理不合理各個縣市的自籌財源你看一下從台北市到157%六都大概平均50%但是其他縣市不到23%到27%你覺得這樣合理"},{"start":264.232,"end":290.026,"text":"下一個為什麼要修第一個地方政府沒有穩定的確定的收入他沒有辦法做長遠的規劃相關的事情要看老闆的心情也就是財政部或者是主計處該要給多少由他們決定所以費時費力還不定有所以要用功讀書才會有獎品最嚴重的是人均分配顯然不夠比較嚴重的是這個各位看到這個"},{"start":291.397,"end":316.978,"text":"各個縣市都在蓋社宅根本就沒有錢蓋所以呢中央可以蓋到五萬四千戶台北市還財政比較好蓋到兩萬戶其他新北市以下都是一千戶我們當把所有的錢全都集中在中央的時候就會產生地方蓋社宅、就校社要自己想辦法所以沒辦法做全部變成中央來蓋社宅這違反"},{"start":317.859,"end":335.681,"text":"地方自治的精神這也違反整個財政收支的相關規範因為它全部放在地方而地方政府自己也在蓋所以變成中央地方兩種不同的制度次長你知道這個狀況嗎?了解所以這個錢還是要集中在中央由中央來蓋是嗎?"},{"start":336.822,"end":363.345,"text":"不是,我的意思是說為什麼剛才委員講說要釋出多少規模因為你有答案嘛,你有答案就不要再扯了好不好接下來就是修法時間不是我們說這個是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取希望修《財化法》2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建民也主張要列為優先法案讓非六度的縣市可以翻轉"},{"start":364.566,"end":377.359,"text":"這句話不是我說的,是執政者說的。那個時候您在財政部嗎?次長。你那時候在財政部嗎?你都在財政部,這些你都經歷過吧?那時候我沒有負責這個業務。你沒有負責這個業務,但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。好。"},{"start":385.137,"end":403.196,"text":"接下去是看到了這麼多的人講了這麼多的話賴清德總統在2012年也就是主席長的台南市長任內他要求中央要修法同樣的2017的賴清德院長要提出財化法的行政院版本"},{"start":404.532,"end":423.548,"text":"這些都是他們說的他們現在都跟你說他們沒有版本現在的辦法就是最好的辦法這件事情這是一個制度問題我不希望像主計長一樣在台南市當局長跟到中央當主計長態度會有這麼大的不同"},{"start":424.625,"end":442.915,"text":"我希望將來的是訂出一個制度性的規範權力的魔戒要拿下來這個權力不應該是誰執政誰就繼續帶著不願意下放權力所以問題不在水平分配問題是垂直分配你們願意拿多少出來分"},{"start":444.085,"end":470.138,"text":"獲得了以後再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配的方法變成法律的規範而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志所以我的問題不是我的答案很簡單當垂直分配確定了水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下就一定可以所謂的有共識什麼共識第一不低於現在的水準第二"},{"start":471.741,"end":476.459,"text":"相關的這些垂直分配的金額把它明確的入法而且"},{"start":477.406,"end":502.265,"text":"只要金額增加我相信不會有任何縣市會告訴你說他不接受當前增加了每一個縣市都不低於他現在的分配的比例我相信你們告訴我們水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的市長對吧跟委員報告事實上我們現在的修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向跟委員的意思是一樣的"},{"start":502.745,"end":528.692,"text":"是,所以為什麼訂不出你們的版本我實在是覺得匪夷所思第一個垂直分配我們沒有訂件你們可以提出來大家討論第二個水平分配我們的態度就是很簡單我們估的2700億是你大概這五年來的平均的稅基剩餘也就是說動2000多億不會動到中央政府的骨幹也不會影響到你中央政府的預算執行因為你根本就花不完"},{"start":529.392,"end":555.806,"text":"第二個相關的分配如果都有2700億這2700億平均按照相關的公式或比例讓所有的縣市來分配不會有任何縣市比現在少我不相信有任何縣市會告訴你們他們不接受現在的問題是你財政部不願意去面對財政部用水平分配地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院這一個態度是非常非常惡劣的"},{"start":556.266,"end":567.421,"text":"第二、這個態度是讓現在的院長抱著這個所謂的權力的魔戒然後告訴全台灣的人我們不修,我們就是不修這件事情是很丟臉的"},{"start":568.578,"end":596.023,"text":"因為剛剛講的這是你們民眾黨執政的時候要求修的所以次長你不要再告訴我水平分配擺不平你先告訴我垂直分配你們的想法是還是不願意再修正嗎?根文報告這個真的要考要去這個審視就對中央的影響啦因為你釋出2700億的話現在很多的資源我們都很多的施政都沒辦法做了"},{"start":596.683,"end":612.478,"text":"所以什麼事情沒辦法做對我們增加我們明年的預算已經到3兆了你要告訴我2000多億是不能做事但是我跟委員報告我們雖然是3兆我們增加了這麼多的預算你告訴我2000你每年剩下2000多億你告訴我你不能做事這點不是很好笑嗎我跟委員報告"},{"start":613.098,"end":629.449,"text":"我們現在雖然是3兆、3.1兆但是呢我們裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆我同意所以重點是如果不行你告訴我你多少可以做啊你1200億可以做好啊講出來嘛我想大家都可以思考這個"},{"start":630.309,"end":657.092,"text":"所以不是思考,拿出來討論星期三就要主條了我們在垂直分配星期三一定會有初步的討論第三,第二個這個案子一定會出委員會我不希望財政部或行政院又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論或討論沒有結論的部分拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政拿去又再去提出復議又再去提出釋憲一個不負責任的政府"},{"start":657.873,"end":681.966,"text":"只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求我覺得這一點事情是會讓人家不齒的所以財政部不要再說你們沒有版本了你們的版本必須醜媳婦還是要見公婆星期三開始的逐條審查我相信在委員會我們會聽你們的意見我也希望你們把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來我們幫你們入法"},{"start":683.957,"end":684.117,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1232,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（15時59分）謝謝主席，請次長和陳主計長。"],["主席：請阮次長、陳主計長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：首先謝謝主席。今天我們開了一整天的會，聽了各個委員發表意見，當然，剛剛也聽到次長說了很多，其實這樣一整天下來，包括從上個會期提案到現在，我們都在給財政部時間和地方政府溝通，我們也在等你們的版本，看起來財政部目前還是沒有版本，禮拜三逐條審查的時候，你們依然沒有版本。","主計長，本席想問你一下，你從臺南市來，曾經說過財政收支劃分法有必要修，現在你認為不用修了嗎？當了主計長，有沒有換腦袋？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是90年的時候，臺南市的負債是92.36%，我們必須在3年內降到45%……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以當時你希望修。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那時候薪水發不出來，公務人員的旅費等相關費用通通刪減，還是一樣沒辦法解決。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果今天你還是地方首長，你會主張修還是不修？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是現在都改善了。現在縣市賸餘六百多億元，所以現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你認為這樣就不用修了，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前的狀況來說，原則上大部分縣市都有滿足。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。次長，你的邏輯就是有改善了，所以不用修，是嗎？財政部現在就把這個當成唯一的理由囉！"],["阮次長清華：我們從來沒有說因為改善了，所以就不用修。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以本席今天聽了一整天……"],["阮次長清華：因為我們修法的其中一個原則，我剛才也報告過，其中一個原則就是擴大……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，先讓本席問完問題，然後你再說明好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你今天說到國民黨提出的四千多億元，那民眾黨的二千多億元呢？你覺得合不合理？"],["阮次長清華：這個還是要看中央的資源夠不夠。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以財政部認為多少是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我們很難認定要多少，但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你今天說了一整天4,000億元不合理，請你告訴本席多少才是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：關於垂直分配，請你告訴本席多少是合理的，是財政部可以接受，願意放下垂直分配的門檻？"],["阮次長清華：我現在沒辦法直接回答這個問題，因為這個東西最主要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們討論一整年也沒有任何答案。次長，你只要回答本席的問題，你認為多少是合理的？沒有答案？"],["阮次長清華：最主要是我們和地方政府的水平分配，這個部分還沒有共識，所以……"],["黃委員珊珊：本席現在問你的是垂直分配，你認為多少是合理的，中央政府的運作不會受影響？是1,000億元、2,000億元，還是3,000億元？因為你說4,000億元會有影響。"],["阮次長清華：因為這個我們要盤點對中央的……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，不要在這邊鬼打牆。第一，先把垂直分配定下來，如果金額多了，再來討論水平分配的公式，這才是制定財政收支劃分法最好的方法，否則你們每天用水平分配來搪塞，本席覺得非常不負責任。也就是說，如果你們認為4,000億元不行，那你們認為多少可以？不管增加2,000億或3,000億元，水平分配就以你們現在認為最好的分配方式處理，它是可以拿出來討論的。","可是你們現在的問題是，第一，你們不和我們討論垂直分配；第二，你們一直拿水平分配出來鬼扯。本席覺得財政部從我們提案到現在，都不願意針對垂直分配你們認為合理的金額提出你們的版本，或者是你們的立場，這一點本席覺得非常不負責任，從部長到院長，到你今天的回答都一樣。請你告訴本席，你認為多少是合理的？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在修法就是一個原則，有包括擴大釋出規模。我們為什麼沒辦法……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你現在還是沒有答案？好，那我們就來看看吧！什麼叫合不合理？請你看一下各縣市的自籌財源，臺北市要57%，六都平均大概是50%，但是其他縣市從23%到27%，你覺得這樣合理？為什麼要修法？第一個，地方政府沒有穩定、確定的收入，沒有辦法做長遠規劃，相關的事情要看老闆心情，也就是財政部或者主計總處要給多少，由他們決定，費時費力還不一定有，要用功讀書才會有獎品。","最嚴重的是，人均分配顯然不夠，比較嚴重的是這個問題。請各位看一下，各個縣市都在蓋社宅，其實他們根本就沒有錢蓋，所以中央可以蓋到5萬4,000戶，臺北市的財政比較好，可以蓋到2萬戶，但新北市以下的都是1,000戶。當我們把所有的錢、權都集中在中央的時候，就會產生地方蓋社宅、舊校舍要自己想辦法的問題，因為沒辦法做，所以全部變成由中央蓋社宅，這違反地方自治的精神，也違反財政收支的相關規範，因為它全部放在地方，而且地方政府自己也在蓋，所以變成中央、地方兩種不同的制度。次長，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["阮次長清華：了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個錢還是要集中在中央，由中央來蓋，是嗎？"],["阮次長清華：不是。我的意思是說，為什麼剛才委員說要釋出多少規模？因為這個涉……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為你沒有答案嘛！如果你沒有答案就不要再扯了，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來就是修法時間，這不是我們說的，是2012年的蕭美琴立法委員幫花蓮爭取，希望修財劃法。2018年的民進黨黨團總召柯建銘也主張要列為優先法案，讓非六都的縣市可以翻轉，這句話不是本席說的，是執政者說的。次長，那個時候您在財政部嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對，在財政部，但是我沒有負責這個業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：你都在財政部，這些你都經歷過吧？"],["阮次長清華：那時候我沒有負責這個業務。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有負責這個業務，但是這些事情財政部都經歷過。看到這麼多人說了這麼多話，賴清德總統在2012年，也就是主計長還在臺南市政府工作的時候，在賴總統擔任臺南市長的任內，他要求中央要修法。同樣的，2017年的賴清德院長說要提出財劃法的行政院版本，這些都是他們說的，但是他們現在都說沒有版本，現在的辦法就是最好的辦法。","這件事情是一個制度問題，本席不希望像主計長一樣，在臺南市當局長和到中央當主計長，態度有這麼大的不同。本席希望將來訂出一個制度性的規範，權力的魔戒要拿下來，這個權力不應該是誰執政，誰就繼續戴著，不願意下放權力。所以問題不在水平分配，問題是垂直分配，你們願意拿多少出來分？分了以後，再把你們現在認為最好的水平分配方法變成法律規範，而不是由財政部自己按照自己的意志處理。","所以本席的答案很簡單，當垂直分配確定了，水平分配自然而然在兩個原則之下一定會有共識，什麼原則？第一，不低於現在的水準；第二，把相關的垂直分配金額明確入法，而且只要金額增加，本席相信不會有任何縣市告訴你，他們不接受，當錢增加了，每一個縣市都不低於現在分配的比例。本席相信你們所說的水平分配擺不平這件事情是不會發生的。次長，對吧？"],["阮次長清華：事實上，我們現在修法的基本原則也是朝這個方向，和委員的意思是一樣的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。所以為什麼定不出你們的版本，本席實在覺得匪夷所思。第一個，對於垂直分配，我們沒有定見，你們可以提出來，大家一起討論。第二個，對於水平分配，我們的態度很簡單，我們估算的2,700億元是這5年來的平均歲計賸餘，也就是說，動二千多億元不會動到中央政府的骨幹，也不會影響到中央政府的預算執行，因為你們根本就花不完。","第二個，相關的分配，如果多了2,700億元，這2,700億元按照相關的公式或比例讓所有縣市分配，不會有任何縣市比現在少，本席不相信會有任何縣市告訴你們，他們不接受。現在的問題是財政部不願意面對，財政部用水平分配、地方政府擺不平來搪塞立法院，這個態度是非常、非常惡劣的。","第二個，這個態度讓現在的院長抱著權力魔戒，然後告訴全臺灣的人，你們不修！你們就是不修！這件事情是很丟臉的，因為剛剛說過，這是你們民進黨執政時要求修的，所以次長，你不要再告訴本席水平分配擺不平。請你現在告訴本席，對於垂直分配，你們的想法還是不願意再修正嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這個真的要去審視對中央施政的影響啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以2,700億元，你們同不同意？可能接受嗎？"],["阮次長清華：因為釋出2,700億元的話，現在我們很多施政都沒辦法做了，會有這個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以什麼事情沒辦法做？我們明年的預算已經增加到3兆元，你卻告訴本席，少了二千多億元沒辦法做事。"],["阮次長清華：但是我們雖然是3兆元……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們增加了這麼多預算，你們每年剩下二千多億元，現在卻告訴本席，你們不能做事，這不是很好笑嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在雖然是3.1兆元，但是裡面的法律義務支出是1.8兆元，所以扣掉以後，我們只……"],["黃委員珊珊：本席同意。所以重點是，如果不行，請你告訴本席，多少可以做？例如1,200億元可以做，好啊！請你們說出來嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我想大家都可以思考這個問題嘛！"],["黃委員珊珊：不是思考，是要拿出來討論，星期三就要逐條審查了，關於垂直分配，星期三一定會做初步討論。第二個，這個案子一定會出委員會，我不希望財政部或行政院，又把在立法院委員會沒辦法討論，或討論沒有結論的部分，拿去說在野黨又毀憲亂政，又再拿去提出覆議，又再去提出釋憲。一個不負責任的政府，只有製造朝野對立來作為他對人民的訴求，我覺得這一點是會讓人家不齒的。所以財政部，不要再說你們沒有版本了，你們的版本醜媳婦還是必須要見公婆。星期三開始的逐條審查，我相信，在委員會我們會聽你們的意見，我也希望你們，把你們現在所謂最好的方法拿出來，我們幫你們立法。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。大家都殷殷期盼財政部提出版本，我們再次請求儘快、儘快，謝謝。","接著我們請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}