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\"所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 592.567, \"end\": 592.707, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 592.707, \"end\": 592.987, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 592.987, \"end\": 593.608, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 593.608, \"end\": 593.788, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 593.788, \"end\": 594.348, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 594.348, \"end\": 594.488, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 594.488, \"end\": 594.648, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 594.648, \"end\": 594.908, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 594.908, \"end\": 595.028, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 595.028, \"end\": 595.268, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.268, \"end\": 595.389, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 595.389, \"end\": 595.949, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 595.949, \"end\": 596.449, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 596.449, \"end\": 596.569, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 596.569, \"end\": 596.609, \"score\": 0.315}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 596.609, \"end\": 596.909, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 596.909, \"end\": 597.089, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 597.089, \"end\": 597.249, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 597.249, \"end\": 597.369, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 597.369, \"end\": 597.53, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 597.53, \"end\": 598.33, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 598.33, \"end\": 598.55, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 598.55, \"end\": 598.67, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 602.772, \"end\": 603.132, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 603.132, \"end\": 603.332, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 603.332, \"end\": 603.492, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 603.492, \"end\": 603.672, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 603.672, \"end\": 603.793, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 603.793, \"end\": 604.073, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 604.073, \"end\": 604.473, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 604.473, \"end\": 605.833, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 605.833, \"end\": 606.034, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 606.034, \"end\": 606.914, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 606.914, \"end\": 607.674, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 607.674, \"end\": 607.954, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 607.954, \"end\": 608.315, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 608.315, \"end\": 608.495, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 608.495, \"end\": 608.575, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 608.575, \"end\": 608.615, \"score\": 0.444}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 608.615, \"end\": 608.715, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 608.715, \"end\": 609.255, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 609.255, \"end\": 609.515, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 609.515, \"end\": 609.815, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 609.815, \"end\": 609.915, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 609.915, \"end\": 610.156, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 610.156, \"end\": 610.576, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 610.576, \"end\": 610.796, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 610.796, \"end\": 610.916, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 610.916, \"end\": 611.216, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 611.216, \"end\": 611.516, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 611.516, \"end\": 611.796, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 611.796, \"end\": 612.257, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 612.257, \"end\": 612.397, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 612.397, \"end\": 612.557, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 612.557, \"end\": 612.757, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 612.757, \"end\": 612.777, \"score\": 0.963}]}, {\"start\": 613.873, \"end\": 636.141, \"text\": \"但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 613.873, \"end\": 614.113, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 614.113, \"end\": 614.393, \"score\": 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\"這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 637.001, \"end\": 637.201, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 637.201, \"end\": 638.482, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 638.482, \"end\": 639.282, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 639.282, \"end\": 639.522, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 639.522, \"end\": 639.682, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 639.682, \"end\": 639.903, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 639.903, \"end\": 640.203, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 640.203, \"end\": 640.443, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 640.443, \"end\": 642.444, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 642.444, \"end\": 642.624, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 642.624, 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 647.426, \"end\": 648.026, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 648.026, \"end\": 648.266, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 648.266, \"end\": 648.807, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 648.807, \"end\": 649.167, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 649.167, \"end\": 649.287, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 649.287, \"end\": 649.467, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 649.467, \"end\": 649.807, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 649.807, \"end\": 650.447, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 650.447, \"end\": 650.608, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 650.608, \"end\": 651.108, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 651.108, \"end\": 652.148, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 652.148, \"end\": 652.268, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 652.268, \"end\": 652.448, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.448, \"end\": 652.568, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 652.568, \"end\": 652.789, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.789, \"end\": 652.949, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 652.949, \"end\": 653.929, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 653.929, \"end\": 654.249, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"彌\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 654.249, \"end\": 654.549, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 654.549, \"end\": 654.79, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 654.79, \"end\": 655.09, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 655.09, \"end\": 655.73, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 655.73, \"end\": 655.89, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 655.89, \"end\": 656.15, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 656.15, \"end\": 656.67, 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00:01:07,846\n大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,也不好做,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為白不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方行政所,沒有一件事情是容易的。\n\n4\n00:01:08,266 --> 00:01:35,524\n但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個\n\n5\n00:01:37,566 --> 00:02:04,586\n難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘瑞曼等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了\n\n6\n00:02:05,714 --> 00:02:23,788\n那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:25,455 --> 00:02:44,737\n跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合\n\n8\n00:02:45,498 --> 00:02:58,927\n但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標\n\n9\n00:03:01,328 --> 00:03:23,917\n那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給他收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:25,057 --> 00:03:43,814\n所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題\n\n11\n00:03:46,636 --> 00:04:14,503\n有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數\n\n12\n00:04:16,540 --> 00:04:36,961\n來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推這樣一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣\n\n13\n00:04:39,343 --> 00:05:01,194\n當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該\n\n14\n00:05:02,975 --> 00:05:03,856\n財政收支劃分法\n\n15\n00:05:33,415 --> 00:05:57,881\n討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布\n\n16\n00:06:01,484 --> 00:06:08,584\n現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法\n\n17\n00:06:09,878 --> 00:06:30,530\n如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。\n\n18\n00:06:31,491 --> 00:06:46,086\n那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。那沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。\n\n19\n00:06:50,550 --> 00:07:05,823\n中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體話題出來\n\n20\n00:07:08,205 --> 00:07:27,434\n沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好\n\n21\n00:07:29,995 --> 00:07:57,721\n過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、這八年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心\n\n22\n00:07:59,219 --> 00:08:23,061\n併建得更完整更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨\n\n23\n00:08:24,002 --> 00:08:36,680\n都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去\n\n24\n00:08:40,224 --> 00:09:05,577\n一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進步民進黨也只剩邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲\n\n25\n00:09:07,496 --> 00:09:33,872\n這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢\n\n26\n00:09:35,053 --> 00:09:51,506\n我建議台北市仍舊是一個首善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分它應該要有的相關的一些首都的加急\n\n27\n00:09:52,567 --> 00:10:12,777\n所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的\n\n28\n00:10:13,873 --> 00:10:36,141\n但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話\n\n29\n00:10:37,001 --> 00:11:01,693\n這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的\n\n30\n00:11:02,333 --> 00:11:30,196\n所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天\n\n31\n00:11:31,577 --> 00:11:43,821\n雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎\n\n32\n00:11:54,144 --> 00:11:59,648\n我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9766\t23290\t委員好次長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平\n26312\t46272\t從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢\n48186\t67846\t大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,也不好做,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為白不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方行政所,沒有一件事情是容易的。\n68266\t95524\t但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個\n97566\t124586\t難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘瑞曼等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了\n125714\t143788\t那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?\n145455\t164737\t跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合\n165498\t178927\t但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標\n181328\t203917\t那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給他收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?\n205057\t223814\t所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題\n226636\t254503\t有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數\n256540\t276961\t來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推這樣一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣\n279343\t301194\t當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該\n302975\t303856\t財政收支劃分法\n333415\t357881\t討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布\n361484\t368584\t現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法\n369878\t390530\t如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。\n391491\t406086\t那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。那沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。\n410550\t425823\t中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體話題出來\n428205\t447434\t沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好\n449995\t477721\t過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、這八年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心\n479219\t503061\t併建得更完整更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨\n504002\t516680\t都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去\n520224\t545577\t一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進步民進黨也只剩邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲\n547496\t573872\t這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢\n575053\t591506\t我建議台北市仍舊是一個首善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分它應該要有的相關的一些首都的加急\n592567\t612777\t所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的\n613873\t636141\t但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話\n637001\t661693\t這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的\n662333\t690196\t所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天\n691577\t703821\t雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎\n714144\t719648\t我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識\n","txt":"委員好次長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平\n從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢\n大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,也不好做,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為白不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方行政所,沒有一件事情是容易的。\n但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個\n難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘瑞曼等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了\n那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?\n跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合\n但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標\n那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給他收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?\n所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題\n有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數\n來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推這樣一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣\n當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該\n財政收支劃分法\n討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布\n現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法\n如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。\n那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。那沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。\n中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體話題出來\n沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好\n過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、這八年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心\n併建得更完整更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨\n都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去\n一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進步民進黨也只剩邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲\n這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢\n我建議台北市仍舊是一個首善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分它應該要有的相關的一些首都的加急\n所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的\n但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話\n這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的\n所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天\n雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎\n我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.766 --> 00:23.290\n委員好次長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平\n\n00:26.312 --> 00:46.272\n從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢\n\n00:48.186 --> 01:07.846\n大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,也不好做,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為白不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方行政所,沒有一件事情是容易的。\n\n01:08.266 --> 01:35.524\n但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個\n\n01:37.566 --> 02:04.586\n難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘瑞曼等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了\n\n02:05.714 --> 02:23.788\n那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?\n\n02:25.455 --> 02:44.737\n跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合\n\n02:45.498 --> 02:58.927\n但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標\n\n03:01.328 --> 03:23.917\n那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給他收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?\n\n03:25.057 --> 03:43.814\n所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題\n\n03:46.636 --> 04:14.503\n有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數\n\n04:16.540 --> 04:36.961\n來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推這樣一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣\n\n04:39.343 --> 05:01.194\n當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該\n\n05:02.975 --> 05:03.856\n財政收支劃分法\n\n05:33.415 --> 05:57.881\n討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布\n\n06:01.484 --> 06:08.584\n現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法\n\n06:09.878 --> 06:30.530\n如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。\n\n06:31.491 --> 06:46.086\n那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。那沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。\n\n06:50.550 --> 07:05.823\n中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體話題出來\n\n07:08.205 --> 07:27.434\n沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好\n\n07:29.995 --> 07:57.721\n過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、這八年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心\n\n07:59.219 --> 08:23.061\n併建得更完整更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨\n\n08:24.002 --> 08:36.680\n都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去\n\n08:40.224 --> 09:05.577\n一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進步民進黨也只剩邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲\n\n09:07.496 --> 09:33.872\n這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢\n\n09:35.053 --> 09:51.506\n我建議台北市仍舊是一個首善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分它應該要有的相關的一些首都的加急\n\n09:52.567 --> 10:12.777\n所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的\n\n10:13.873 --> 10:36.141\n但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話\n\n10:37.001 --> 11:01.693\n這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的\n\n11:02.333 --> 11:30.196\n所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天\n\n11:31.577 --> 11:43.821\n雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎\n\n11:54.144 --> 11:59.648\n我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.766,"end":23.29,"text":"委員好次長好我想今天這幾天包括上個會期我們委員會其實都討論非常多財政、財化法的修法其實已經隔了25年沒有修包括剛才你們回應說這個擺不平"},{"start":26.312,"end":46.272,"text":"從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財化法到這個會期你們還送不出來幾大理由我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論就因為擺不平所以該做的事情都不做嗎在我看來這叫做行政的怠惰沒有一件事情是容易每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢"},{"start":48.186,"end":67.846,"text":"大家都要,大家都有一套自己的說法,也不好做,但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛,對不對?那你說因為白不平所以我們沒辦法做就不做,我覺得這個就是行動。在我看來,其實處理政務、處理事務,無論是中央或地方行政所,沒有一件事情是容易的。"},{"start":68.266,"end":95.524,"text":"但是選出來之後就要做完全的行政負責、政治負責這就是一個政府應該要有的功能在那在這一次的討論當中我從媒體上看到你們是暗算立法院的修法叫做倉促修法應該在民具之後民具共識之後再審慎推動但是我要提的是財化法的修法真的是一個"},{"start":97.566,"end":124.586,"text":"難道只是一個朝夕之間的問題嗎?恐怕不是因為從賴清德過去自己在當台南市市長還有包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長從過去的鄭文燦還有包括台南的代理市長李沐彥還有林佳龍還有潘瑞曼等等其實早期在民進黨執政過去的8年今年邁入第9年都曾經提出來財化法是應該要修了"},{"start":125.714,"end":143.788,"text":"那到今天為止我要請問財政部今天坐在底下除了政務官之外事務官坐在這邊這麼久了難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來到今天為止還送不出一個版本還送不出一個基本架構來嗎?"},{"start":145.455,"end":164.737,"text":"跟委員報告我想那個財化法為什麼從民國88年我們送了5次送到大院為什麼沒辦法獲至共識為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法就是因為各地方政府大家都有自己的立場所以很難整合"},{"start":165.498,"end":178.927,"text":"但是即使是這樣財政部我們最近也一直在邀請地方政府在溝通希望能夠把這個相關的旗艦能夠縮小所以我一開始的時候呢原來地方政府提了80個指標"},{"start":181.328,"end":203.917,"text":"那我們經過兩次會議以後,我們現在慢慢給他收斂以後,我們現在只剩下幾個,比如像權重的問題,或者是說像污染防治的問題,或者是再生能源,或者是說稅出的節減要不要納進來。除了這幾個之外,其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了。那還需要多少時間嗎?"},{"start":205.057,"end":223.814,"text":"所以我們現在就是這樣就是說最難的在後面要最難的你說不定你說出來說我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通啊但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊最重要就是我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦各退一步比如說像權重的問題像權重的問題"},{"start":226.636,"end":254.503,"text":"有些縣市他比如說像他的市長市長因為我今天時間其實也不多我必須要提醒你你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾或藉這個機會告訴所有縣市首長我們現在還有差幾個指標我們還沒有共識我們希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通那我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式有機會大家有一個最大的公約數"},{"start":256.54,"end":276.961,"text":"來去做溝通跟努力,但是關鍵是你到今天為止這個會期版本送不送得出來?如果大家都願意這樣推這樣一步的話,其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成但是我是覺得很多事情啊,很多事情整到要分錢的時候啊,很多就會有很多的意見啊,我們過去的經驗是這樣"},{"start":279.343,"end":301.194,"text":"當然都是,這個涉及到各縣市未來的財政的規劃、市政的規劃還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型還有淨零排碳等等,就是說地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多你們這一次講出來幾個理由,一個是擺不平,或者是你們覺得地方知識法應該"},{"start":302.975,"end":303.856,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":333.415,"end":357.881,"text":"討論很完整除非是突發狀況比如說這個兒少法去年上個會期有修法我們重新有對一些中央跟地方的事情有再加強分工之外其實本來具體的項目早就已經編在各部會裡面中央跟地方怎麼樣全責劃分所以我不清楚你講的是說我們要等第4法這個整理討論得更完整之後我們再來討論這個經費的分布"},{"start":361.484,"end":368.584,"text":"現在地方要負責的項目其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼、中央要負責什麼而不需要再修地質法"},{"start":369.878,"end":390.53,"text":"如果現在才要來修地制法,那過去中央市權跟地方市權怎麼樣做分配?我沒有講錯嗎?所以我跟委員報告,這也是問題的關鍵。為什麼呢?因為就是目前提出來的這些版本只處理了釋出財源的這一部分,就是只有隨時分配那一塊。"},{"start":391.491,"end":406.086,"text":"那至於說水平分配那邊都沒有處理。那沒有處理的話,那你那個錢出去到底要做什麼呢?要講清楚啊。所以會涉及到事權的分配的問題。所以這個地方溝通就是會比較難處理。"},{"start":410.55,"end":425.823,"text":"中央跟地方其實都已經有一個就是說未來是從人口從面積從有一些偏鄉的他可能老人比較多出生率我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來去做討論關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體話題出來"},{"start":428.205,"end":447.434,"text":"沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法所以我必須要再提醒你就是說我覺得整個中央跟地方不要讓外界只有批評說你們是極權又極前我覺得地方首長對於不管藍綠的執政縣市最清楚知道市政的規劃優先順序他要怎麼樣來用是最好"},{"start":449.995,"end":477.721,"text":"過去我不要去講哪一個縣市因為有一些縣市我批評到人家縣市也不好就是說我們外界看到很多拿中央的補助但是卻產生很多的蚊子管很多的蚊子建設但是如果你有限的錢撥給地方讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、這八年他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好他把托兒所、托嬰中心"},{"start":479.219,"end":503.061,"text":"併建得更完整更足夠他就知道哪些是他地方的優先順序需要的就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生這是過去的問題所以我個人還是認為地方的統籌分配管應該還是要隨時分配應該儘速的重新趕快去做調整那至於地方的我覺得在野黨"},{"start":504.002,"end":516.68,"text":"都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通我們也有我們的版本出來今天在野黨這麼多的委員我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本其實應該有機會去"},{"start":520.224,"end":545.577,"text":"一些最大的公約數出來否則財劃法從過去25年討論到現在都沒有往前進步民進黨也只剩邁入第9年我們還是希望可以有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本否則的話就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的你們覺得不妥當、不妥善然後到最後又要再來搞一次釋憲復議然後再搞一次釋憲"},{"start":547.496,"end":573.872,"text":"這個我覺得是勞民傷財所以第一我還是認為想辦法擴大財源然後保障現有的權益然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制未來怎麼樣去做分配然後另外我個人認為營業稅要百分之百應該要回饋地方我們應該想辦法把餅做大擴大釋出要給地方的財源的規模然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力另外台北市的部分呢"},{"start":575.053,"end":591.506,"text":"我建議台北市仍舊是一個首善之都所以未來的基礎建設還有包括大型的一些公共建設的破壞我們就希望台北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力所以包括在台北市的部分它應該要有的相關的一些首都的加急"},{"start":592.567,"end":612.777,"text":"所以這一塊比例這部分我們希望還是能夠維持我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的一些方向裡面去看得到這些內容報告委員剛才委員的大部分的意見其實跟財政部的修法的方向原則是一致的"},{"start":613.873,"end":636.141,"text":"但是就是比如說有一些版本就比如說像國民黨的版本我們經我們試算的結果那麼有8個縣市它其實分配的別單稅出還要超過百分之百有這種狀況另外就是假定對特定的都會區有一個額外的一些這個分配的話"},{"start":637.001,"end":661.693,"text":"這個跟我們的財化法的修正原則是有點不一致因為我們是考慮到是什麼?全國是劃一的這是劃一的公式然後我們財化法的目的是為了彌補收支差短那目前台北市據我了解它的財政狀況是在各縣市當中目前是最好的"},{"start":662.333,"end":690.196,"text":"所以如果再加上3%的話是不是會造成一些外面的一些議論在現有的機制之下怎麼樣重新用一些重要的指標我們進來再做討論它或許不是叫首都加級但是用什麼樣的具體的指標我們再拿進來去做討論我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來我覺得大家都可以具體討論現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本所以我們講了老半天"},{"start":691.577,"end":703.821,"text":"雞同鴨講所以我們還是期待這次你們這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來用哪些指標那大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做我們才有辦法聚焦否則浪費了4年在這邊每個會期國民黨的章委排了才化法沒有具體的結果不是民進黨也討論了這麼多年沒有具體的版本不是白討論了嗎"},{"start":714.144,"end":719.648,"text":"我們也在努力了,也在努力就是在跟地方政府在做溝通希望能夠達成共識"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（16時10分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請次長？"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：次長好。我想這幾天包括上個會期，我們委員會都討論非常多，財劃法其實已經隔了25年沒有修，包括剛才你們回應說，這個擺不平。從媒體上看到幾個你覺得財劃法到這個會期你們還送不出來的幾大理由，我覺得等一下有機會一個一個來討論。就因為擺不平，所以該做的事情都不做嗎？在我看來，這叫做行政的怠惰。沒有一件事情是容易的，每個月所有的縣市首長來行政院要錢，大家都要，大家都有一套自己的說法，但是到最後總是要有一個結果嘛，對不對？你說因為擺不平，所以沒辦法做就不做，我覺得這個就是行政怠惰。在我看來，其實處理政務、處理事務，無論是中央或地方行政首長，沒有一件事情是容易的，但是選出來之後，就要完全的負起行政責任、政治責任，這就是一個政府應該要有的功能。","在這一次的討論當中，我從媒體上看到，你們暗酸立法院的修法叫做「倉促修法」，說應該要凝聚共識之後再審慎推動，但是我要提的是，財劃法的修法難道真的只是一朝一夕之間的問題嗎？恐怕不是。因為從賴清德過去自己在當臺南市市長，還包括民進黨好幾位縣市首長，從過去的鄭文燦，臺南的代理市長李孟諺，還有林佳龍、潘孟安等等，其實在早期，甚至在民進黨過去執政的8年，今年邁入第9年，都曾經提出財劃法應該要修了。到今天為止，我要請問財政部，今天坐在底下的除了政務官之外，事務官坐在這邊這麼久了，難道沒有一個過去幾個討論的方向版本出來？到今天為止，還送不出一個版本，還送不出一個基本架構來嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我想財劃法從民國88年迄今，我們送了5次修正案到大院，為什麼沒辦法獲致共識，為什麼每一次都沒辦法完成修法？就是因為各個地方政府大家都有自己的立場，所以很難整合，但是即使是這樣，財政部最近也一直邀請地方政府在溝通，希望能夠把相關的歧見縮小。所以，一開始的時候，原來地方政府提了80個指標，經過兩次會議慢慢、慢慢地把它收斂以後，我們現在只剩下幾個，比如像權重的問題，或是像污染防治的問題，或者是再生能源，或是說歲出的節儉要不要納進來，除了這幾個之外，其他的基本上都已經獲得共識了，有共識……"],["李委員彥秀：那還需要多少時間嘛？"],["阮次長清華：所以我們現在就是這樣，就是說最難的，後面最難的……"],["李委員彥秀：說不定你送出來之後，我們地方或在野黨也可以幫你溝通，但是關鍵就是你提不出版本啊！"],["阮次長清華：最重要的就是，我覺得各縣市大家要各退一步啦，要各退一步，比如說像權重的問題，有些縣市比如說像它的……"],["李委員彥秀：次長，因為我今天時間其實也不多，我必須要提醒你，你如果可以告訴所有的社會大眾，或藉這個機會告訴所有的縣市首長，我們現在還有差幾個指標還沒有共識，希望在野黨大家坐下來好好溝通，我覺得或許透過三黨溝通的方式，有機會大家有一個最大的公約數來做溝通跟努力，但是關鍵是你到今天為止，這個會期版本送不送得出來？"],["阮次長清華：如果大家都願意退讓一步的話，其實我們財政部也是樂觀其成。但是我是覺得很多事情，很多事情講到要分錢的時候，很多人就會有很多的意見，我們過去的經驗是這樣，不是我們不努力……"],["李委員彥秀：當然都是，這部法涉及各縣市未來的財政規劃、市政的規劃，還有現在面臨國土規劃、城市的發展、都市的轉型，還有淨零排碳等等，地方政府要負責的項目跟業務也越來越多。你們這一次講出來的幾個理由，一個是擺不平，或者是你們覺得應該就地方制度法裡面，地方政府要負責的項目……"],["阮次長清華：相關事權的問題也要一起討論，對。"],["李委員彥秀：討論得更完整之後，我們再來討論財劃法的修正，但是次長，我要提醒你，地方制度法當中由地方負責的工作事項，其實每一年都有在滾動，內政部主管的地方制度法只有規範一些基本的大項目，但是各部會跟地方之間大家的分工，早就已經討論得很完整。除非是突發狀況，譬如說兒少法上個會期有修法，我們有重新對一些中央跟地方的事情再加強分工之外，其實具體的項目中央跟地方的權責怎麼樣劃分，本來早就已經編在各部會裡面。所以我不清楚，你說我們要等地制法整理討論的更完整之後，我們再來討論這個經費的劃分，現在地方要負責的項目，其實早就已經知道地方要負責什麼，中央要負責什麼，不需要再修地制法。如果現在才要來修地制法，那過去中央事權跟地方事權怎麼樣分配？我沒有講錯嘛。"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，這也是問題的關鍵，為什麼呢？因為就是目前提出來的這些版本，只處理了釋出財源這一部分，只有垂直分配那一塊，至於水平分配那部分都沒有處理，都沒有處理的話，你釋出去的那個錢到底要做什麼呢？要講清楚啊，所以也會涉及事權分配的問題，因此這個跟地方溝通會比較有難處……"],["李委員彥秀：要怎麼樣做事權的分配，中央跟地方其實都已經有一個……未來是從人口、從面積、從有一些偏鄉的，它可能老人比較多，出生率……"],["阮次長清華：這些都有共識了。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得有很多不同的指標可以拿來討論……"],["阮次長清華：對，那些都有共識了。"],["李委員彥秀：關鍵是你們一直都沒有具體化提出來，沒有具體化提出來當然沒有辦法，所以我必須要再提醒你，我覺得就整個中央與地方權限跟財政的分配，不要讓外界只有批評你們是集權又集錢，我覺得地方首長，不管是藍綠執政的縣市，最清楚知道市政規劃的優先順序，他要怎麼樣來用是最好。過去的情況，我不去講哪一個縣市，因為我們批評到人家縣市也不好，外界看到很多地方拿中央的補助卻產生很多的蚊子館，很多的蚊子建設……"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["李委員彥秀：但是如果你把有限的錢撥給地方，讓他自己決定他接下來這四年、八年，他執政的優先順序要做哪些東西，他知道他要把長輩照顧得更好，他要把托兒所、托嬰中心闢建得更完整、更足夠，他知道哪些是地方的優先順序需要的，就會減少所謂蚊子建設的產生，這是過去的問題。所以我個人還是認為，地方的統籌分配款應該還是要，就是垂直分配的部分應該儘速的重新調整，至於地方的，我覺得在野黨都願意出來幫你做更多的溝通，我們也有提出來我們的版本。今天在野黨這麼多的委員，我相信執政黨對於自己的地方縣市可能也有不同的想法，我覺得如果你們好好的去看這些版本，其實應該有機會去凝聚一些最大的公約數出來。否則財劃法從過去25年以來討論到現在，都沒有往前進一步，民進黨執政也邁入第9年了，我們還是希望有機會在這個會期可以看到執政黨的版本。否則的話，就像剛才黃珊珊委員講的，你們覺得不妥當、不妥善，然後到最後又要再來搞一次覆議，然後再搞一次釋憲，這個我覺得是勞民傷財。","所以第一個，我還是認為要想辦法擴大財源，保障現有的權益，然後我覺得要建立一個完整的機制，未來怎麼樣去分配。另外，我更認為，營業稅應該要百分之百回歸地方，我們應該要想辦法把餅做大，擴大釋出給地方的財源規模，然後才有機會去減少地方的壓力。另外，臺北市的部分，我的建議是臺北市仍舊是一個首善之都，所以未來的基礎建設，包括一些大型公共建設的擘劃，我們希望臺北市可以維持它一定的國際競爭力，所以在臺北市的部分，它應該要有相關的一些首都的加給，所以這一塊，比例這個部分，我們希望還是能夠維持。我希望這些重要的指標都可以有機會放在未來討論跟修正的方向裡面，可以看得到這些內容。"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，剛才委員大部分的意見，其實跟財政部修法的方向、原則是一致的，但是有一些版本，比如說像國民黨的版本經我們試算的結果，有8個縣市分配的其實比它的歲出還要超過百分之百，有超過百分之百這種狀況。另外就是假定對特定的都會區有額外分配的話，這個跟我們財劃法的修正原則有點不一致，因為我們考慮到的是什麼？是全國劃一的，這是劃一的公式；然後財劃法的目的是為了彌補收支差短。據我了解，目前臺北市的財政狀況在全國各縣市當中是最好的，如果再加上3%的話，是不是會造成外界的一些議論？這個可能還是要再斟酌啦。"],["李委員彥秀：在現有的機制底下，怎麼樣重新納入一些重要的指標，我們再討論，它或許不是叫首都加給，但是用什麼樣的、具體的指標，我們再拿進來討論……"],["阮次長清華：大家一起來努力啦。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得只要你們有丟出版本出來……"],["阮次長清華：大家一起來努力啦。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得大家都可以具體討論，現在最重要的關鍵是你們沒有版本，所以我們講了老半天雞同鴨講。我們還是期待政次這邊趕快提出你們的版本出來，用哪些指標，大家有共識的部分就朝向那些指標來做，我們才有辦法聚焦……"],["阮次長清華：我們已經在……"],["李委員彥秀：否則浪費了4年在這邊，每個會期國民黨的召委排了財劃法卻沒有具體的結果，民進黨也討論了這麼多年，沒有具體的版本不是白討論的嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們也在努力了，已經在努力地跟地方政府溝通，希望大家能夠達成共識。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員，謝謝阮次長，儘快地提出財政部版本，謝謝。","我們休息5分鐘，讓大家休息一下，5分鐘後繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（16時23分）","繼續開會（16時28分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接著我們請吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員、吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員不在。","接著我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":264,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-3","speakers":["陳玉珍","吳秉叡","蔡易餘","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","李坤城","張雅琳","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","林楚茵","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭國文","羅明才","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","高金素梅","賴士葆","張智倫","黃珊珊","李彥秀","黃國昌","王世堅"],"page_start":151,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」20案：(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草\n案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委\n員洪孟楷等 22 人、委員丁學忠等 17 人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 6 案、\n(三)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員\n黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員王鴻薇\n等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員陳\n超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條\n文修正草案」等2案、(八)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十\n六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬\n具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財\n政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(十二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具\n「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案；二、審查「財政收\n支劃分法」 2 案： ( 一 ) 本院委員羅廷瑋等 19 人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、\n(二)本院委員鄭正鈐等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138601_00004"}}}