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00:00:34,338\n主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。\n\n2\n00:00:37,739 --> 00:00:58,050\n首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的\n\n3\n00:01:00,231 --> 00:01:01,312\n委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。\n\n4\n00:01:33,145 --> 00:01:48,336\n現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官\n\n5\n00:01:49,176 --> 00:02:02,622\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。\n\n6\n00:02:08,004 --> 00:02:10,328\n否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊\n\n7\n00:02:21,068 --> 00:02:41,999\n對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任\n\n8\n00:02:43,059 --> 00:02:57,772\n那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間\n\n9\n00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:18,581\n但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判\n\n10\n00:03:19,790 --> 00:03:21,492\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（\n\n11\n00:03:43,278 --> 00:04:08,098\n憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到\n\n12\n00:04:09,426 --> 00:04:37,753\n司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣\n\n13\n00:04:40,148 --> 00:04:46,414\n我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。\n\n14\n00:05:02,093 --> 00:05:22,626\n我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法\n\n15\n00:05:23,268 --> 00:05:23,508\n憲法訴訟法\n\n16\n00:05:43,564 --> 00:05:44,745\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n17\n00:06:03,255 --> 00:06:03,495\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具\n\n18\n00:06:24,404 --> 00:06:41,609\n那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的\n\n19\n00:06:53,792 --> 00:07:16,320\n大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的\n\n20\n00:07:19,601 --> 00:07:29,083\n條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊\n\n21\n00:07:49,932 --> 00:07:51,733\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。\n\n22\n00:08:04,856 --> 00:08:27,131\n這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是\n\n23\n00:08:29,905 --> 00:08:49,625\n其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決\n\n24\n00:08:53,339 --> 00:09:05,268\n那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利\n\n25\n00:09:22,961 --> 00:09:34,051\n只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案\n\n26\n00:09:48,764 --> 00:09:51,285\n這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?\n\n27\n00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:19,451\n各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的\n\n28\n00:10:21,453 --> 00:10:38,507\n所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準\n\n29\n00:10:41,770 --> 00:10:41,810\n議員翁曉玲\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10772\t34338\t主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。\n37739\t58050\t首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的\n60231\t61312\t委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。\n93145\t108336\t現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官\n109176\t122622\t議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。\n128004\t130328\t否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊\n141068\t161999\t對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任\n163059\t177772\t那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間\n179790\t198581\t但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判\n199790\t201492\t二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（\n223278\t248098\t憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到\n249426\t277753\t司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣\n280148\t286414\t我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。\n302093\t322626\t我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法\n323268\t323508\t憲法訴訟法\n343564\t344745\t二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n363255\t363495\t議員翁曉玲等16人擬具\n384404\t401609\t那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的\n413792\t436320\t大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的\n439601\t449083\t條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊\n469932\t471733\t二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。\n484856\t507131\t這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是\n509905\t529625\t其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決\n533339\t545268\t那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利\n562961\t574051\t只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案\n588764\t591285\t這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?\n602230\t619451\t各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的\n621453\t638507\t所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準\n641770\t641810\t議員翁曉玲\n","txt":"主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。\n首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的\n委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。\n現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。\n否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊\n對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任\n那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間\n但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（\n憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到\n司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣\n我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。\n我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法\n憲法訴訟法\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具\n那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的\n大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的\n條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。\n這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是\n其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決\n那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利\n只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案\n這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?\n各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的\n所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準\n議員翁曉玲\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.772 --> 00:34.338\n主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。\n\n00:37.739 --> 00:58.050\n首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的\n\n01:00.231 --> 01:01.312\n委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。\n\n01:33.145 --> 01:48.336\n現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官\n\n01:49.176 --> 02:02.622\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。\n\n02:08.004 --> 02:10.328\n否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊\n\n02:21.068 --> 02:41.999\n對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任\n\n02:43.059 --> 02:57.772\n那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間\n\n02:59.790 --> 03:18.581\n但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判\n\n03:19.790 --> 03:21.492\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（\n\n03:43.278 --> 04:08.098\n憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到\n\n04:09.426 --> 04:37.753\n司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣\n\n04:40.148 --> 04:46.414\n我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。\n\n05:02.093 --> 05:22.626\n我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法\n\n05:23.268 --> 05:23.508\n憲法訴訟法\n\n05:43.564 --> 05:44.745\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。\n\n06:03.255 --> 06:03.495\n議員翁曉玲等16人擬具\n\n06:24.404 --> 06:41.609\n那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的\n\n06:53.792 --> 07:16.320\n大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的\n\n07:19.601 --> 07:29.083\n條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊\n\n07:49.932 --> 07:51.733\n二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具«憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。\n\n08:04.856 --> 08:27.131\n這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是\n\n08:29.905 --> 08:49.625\n其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決\n\n08:53.339 --> 09:05.268\n那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利\n\n09:22.961 --> 09:34.051\n只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案\n\n09:48.764 --> 09:51.285\n這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?\n\n10:02.230 --> 10:19.451\n各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的\n\n10:21.453 --> 10:38.507\n所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準\n\n10:41.770 --> 10:41.810\n議員翁曉玲\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.772,"end":34.338,"text":"主席好,有請副秘書長。副秘書長您好,就是我看到了這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條跟第十五條的報告。那裡面有一些問題呢,我想可能必須請秘書長這裡再來釐清。"},{"start":37.739,"end":58.05,"text":"首先您在報告書裡面有提到過去我們確實有一些大法官他們提前卸任或是因病過世死亡所以以至於會產生部分的缺額那麼請教您在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七八位大法官的"},{"start":60.231,"end":61.312,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":93.145,"end":108.336,"text":"現在的情況不太一樣,而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度不要讓就是有過少的大法官"},{"start":109.176,"end":122.622,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。）立法院第九十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":128.004,"end":130.328,"text":"否則我們為什麼憲法要說我們要有15位的大法官假設7個人6個人5個人就可以開會就可以審議的話那我以後我們大法官就不用這麼多人了啊"},{"start":141.068,"end":161.999,"text":"對所以他是有他的一定的道理的那我現在要講的就是說因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任那麼以我們現在的規定來講的話他的確就是只剩下八位的大法官在任"},{"start":163.059,"end":177.772,"text":"那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任我們不知道至少就是看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權的審查所以勢必會耽誤一些時間"},{"start":179.79,"end":198.581,"text":"但是我在我個人想法我也不認為說這時間會耽擱的太久但是重點是即便是一個月兩個月三個月在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判"},{"start":199.79,"end":201.492,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案》案。（"},{"start":223.278,"end":248.098,"text":"憲法訴訟法的這個明定和大法官修總額說實在話蠻多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的是很支持的為什麼因為我們的確現在看起來會出現了一些過去可能不曾想到的一個狀況那我們怎麼樣能夠把這個憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來這件事情是重要可是呢我現在看到"},{"start":249.426,"end":277.753,"text":"司法院的報告書上面所寫的內容的確是會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮怎麼說呢憲法就是我們現在大法官現有總額的概念那麼跟把他跟民意代表立法委員的現有總額混為一談本席認為這是很不應該的第一個大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣"},{"start":280.148,"end":286.414,"text":"我們現在立法委員有113位,我們未來有可能超過一半,57位都缺額嗎?不會嘛。那麼我們這個大法官,他是這個做成可能會推翻現在法律宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要的職務。"},{"start":302.093,"end":322.626,"text":"我們怎麼可能允許少少的人就可以去宣告某一個法律是違憲這也不符合民主原則所以把大法官的信用總額的這個概念拿來跟立法委員信用總額相比這個就是個不倫不類的比例啦舉例對我不知道這個副秘書長您的看法"},{"start":323.268,"end":323.508,"text":"憲法訴訟法"},{"start":343.564,"end":344.745,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈憲法訴訟法第十四條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":363.255,"end":363.495,"text":"議員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":384.404,"end":401.609,"text":"那麼我想我們這次的修法我本席也是參考很多國家的這個修法像韓國、法國、日本乃至於捷克等等這些國家其實他們都有明定法定的開會的最低的人數那麼這剛剛講的這個大法官的職權功能很重要不應該有少數的大法官就推翻全民意旨所通過的法律那麼這個部分是很不恰當的"},{"start":413.792,"end":436.32,"text":"大法官他只有八年一次可能經過立法院的這個同意審查那之後呢這個他在行使同意權之後他就民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了就是他可能最後根本不甩民意都有這樣的情況出現好那接下來本期還要再講就是你們在這個報告裡面寫我提出來的條文會跟這個迴避的"},{"start":439.601,"end":449.083,"text":"條文會有相衝突。憲法訴訟法第十二條的規定一本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正十二條啊我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突我覺得這就是誤導民眾如果說是現在修了未來十五個人的明定總額他的計算分母就是十五個人如果有迴避有五個六個符合法定迴避事由當然要扣除啊"},{"start":469.932,"end":471.733,"text":"二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":484.856,"end":507.131,"text":"這個部分可能張娜需要解釋,因為我立法院都不信。怎麼會需要解釋,符合法定迴避事由的法官當然就要扣除在外啊。我沒有說是這個法定迴避事由的大法官還要記錄事由總額的人數,我並沒有這樣子說啊。對,所以你們在整段的這個論述當中呢是有問題的。對,然後另外我還要再談的就是"},{"start":509.905,"end":529.625,"text":"其實在你們講的現在有138個人民申請釋憲案是已經受理了可是已經公告了對不對可是從你們111年112年裡面看起來大法官一年只做20件的憲法裁判今年呢是因為情況特殊到目前為止大概只發布了8個到9個的這個憲法判決"},{"start":533.339,"end":545.268,"text":"那麼你們這麼多的案子為什麼這些不積極處理呢?然後現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額不讓這八個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的也是不對的因為我們在認為說每一個人民他申請這個基本權的憲法救濟不管是多少件每一件都是非常重要我相信委員會贊成否定掉人民申請釋憲的權利"},{"start":562.961,"end":574.051,"text":"只是說要不要從嚴我們要採取更高程度的保障人民的釋憲權他到底是不是應該要受理或是不受理這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官大家一起來討論嗎所以你們也是在誣導民眾我們並沒有去耽擱人民的釋憲申請權那麼能不能進行到案子的審理進行排案"},{"start":588.764,"end":591.285,"text":"這是秘書處自己,這是憲法法庭他們自己要去規劃的對等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲申請權嗎?"},{"start":602.23,"end":619.451,"text":"各位委員報告就是我們就是憂慮說假設沒有辦法達到因為這樣子的修法達不到這個可以開會的基本門檻的時候那麼這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審已經受理的案件也不能去判那有一些案件對人民的救濟其實是還蠻急迫的"},{"start":621.453,"end":638.507,"text":"所以我們寧可就都不要這些大法官反正少少的人就可以審那你們也覺得這樣是一個程序保障嗎大法官自己做了就是重要的案子都要一致決對死刑的這個重要案都要一致決那涉及到人民的基本權利保障然後涉及到一個法律制度的健全不應該更應該要踩高標準"},{"start":641.77,"end":641.81,"text":"議員翁曉玲"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（13時34分）主席好。有請副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長，您好。我看到這次司法院所提出來針對本席提案的憲法訴訟法第四條及第九十五條的報告，裡面有一些問題可能必須請副秘書長這裡再釐清。首先，您在報告書裡面有提到過去確實有一些大法官提前卸任，或是因病過世死亡，以至於會產生部分缺額，請教您，在過去有哪一次是曾經有一次缺額七、八位大法官的？有沒有缺額這麼多？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，應該是沒有，最多大概就是迴避六位的那一次。"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是迴避。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我知道，缺額應該沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：但我是說如果是缺額的話？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們書記廳的統計，最多的缺額是五位。"],["翁委員曉玲：曾經是有五位。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼，如果以我們法定總額十五人來講，就算是缺額五位，也還有十人嘛，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果十人當中有一位迴避，如果像委員這樣……"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是因為這次情況不太一樣，而且我們要修改憲法訴訟法最重要的目的其實是要健全制度，健全憲法法庭可以開會審議的制度，不要讓過少的大法官進行裁判審議。這個部分在其他的民主國家裡面，滿多國家其實在他們的憲法法院法或是憲法訴訟法裡面都有明訂最低的開會人數，它是有道理在的，對不對？否則為什麼我們的憲法要說要有十五位大法官，假設七個人、六個人、五個人就可以開會、就可以審議的話，那以後我們的大法官就不用這麼多人了啊！所以它是有它一定的道理。","我現在要講的就是，因為確實未來有可能會出現比較不正常的狀況，更何況馬上11月1號七位大法官就卸任，以我們現在的規定來講，的確就是只剩下八位大法官在任，那麼接下來的七位新提名的大法官什麼時候會上任，我們不知道！至少看起來11月1號之前也不可能進行大法官的人事同意權審查，所以勢必會耽誤一些時間。但是我個人想法也不認為這個時間會耽擱太久，重點是即便是一個月、兩個月、三個月，在這個時間裡面我們的大法官就可能會做出影響法律制度、影響人民基本權利重要的憲法裁判，這個是我們希望在憲法裁判的作成能夠更加的嚴謹，這也符合這次大法官在死刑有條件合憲判決裡面主要的意旨，因為我們在程序上面要採取最嚴格、最嚴謹的方式去做。","憲法訴訟法明定大法官有總額，說實在話滿多的憲法學界的學者是非常支持的，因為現在看起來的確會出現一些過去可能不曾想到的狀況，那我們怎麼樣能夠把憲法訴訟法的漏洞填補起來，這件事情是重要的。可是我現在看到司法院在報告書上所寫的內容，的確會有誤導社會大眾的疑慮。怎麼說呢？本席認為把現在大法官現有總額的概念，跟民意代表、立法委員的現有總額混為一談，是很不應該的，第一、大法官的職務跟民意代表本身就不一樣，現在立法委員有113位，未來有可能超過一半57位都缺額嗎？不會嘛！可是大法官是可能宣告現行法律違憲的一個重要職務，我們怎麼可能允許少數人就可以宣告某一個法律違憲？這也不符合民主原則，所以把大法官現有總額的概念拿來跟立法委員現有總額相比，就是個不倫不類的舉例，我不知道副秘書長的看法。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為法條用語都是現有總額，包含立法院職權行使法，所以我們很多法制上都叫現有總額，一般的理解，現有總額都會排除掉缺額跟缺任的情形，但我們今天要在憲法訴訟法，針對普遍存在的一個法制用語，特別去定義，我們覺得在法制的一致性上可能真的需要斟酌，如果說是為了避免少數人，其實像委員所講的，很多國家當然有這個規範，但是很多國家也有一些補充的規定。比如雖然缺額有規定最低人數，但是他們也有上一任的或者上一任的任期屆滿沒有來得及改選的時候有延長任期的規定，或者是暫時行使職權的規定，那我們這邊都沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝副秘書長的說明，我想我們這次的修法，本席也參考了很多國家的修法，像韓國、法國、日本，乃至捷克等等這些國家，其實他們都有明定法定的開會最低人數。剛剛講過，大法官的職權功能很重要，不應該由少數的大法官推翻全民意旨所通過的法律，這個部分是很不恰當的，大法官只有八年一次，可能經過立法院行使同意權，之後他的民意基礎就變得非常非常淡薄了，他可能最後根本不甩民意，都有這樣的情況出現。","接下來本席還要再講的就是你們在報告裡寫我提出來的條文會跟迴避條文相衝突，憲法訴訟法第十二條規定，依本法迴避的大法官不計入現有總額的人數，本席這次提出的修法並沒有修正第十二條，我現在的解釋跟你們這邊講的為什麼會發生衝突？我覺得這就是誤導民眾，如果現在修了未來15個人的明定總額，它的計算分母就是15個人，如果有迴避，有五、六個符合法定迴避事由，當然要扣除啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為之前從條文上並沒有看出來是跟第十二條……"],["翁委員曉玲：我只修了憲法訴訟法第四條的條文欸！你們這樣解釋是有問題的，是錯的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是說這個部分可能需要解釋，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：這怎麼會需要解釋？符合法定迴避事由的法官當然要扣除在外啊！我沒有說符合法定迴避事由的大法官還要計入現有總額的人數，我並沒有這樣子說呀！所以你們整段的論述是有問題的。","另外，我還要再談的就是你們講現在有138個人民聲請釋憲案已經受理了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：公告了。"],["翁委員曉玲：已經公告了，對不對？可是從111年、112年裡面看起來，大法官一年只做20件憲法裁判，今年是因為情況特殊，到目前為止大概只發布了8個至9個憲法判決，你們這麼多案子，為什麼這些也不積極處理？現在要去拖延到說是我們接下來可能大法官有缺額，不讓這8個大法官去審就會耽誤到人民的救濟權，你們這樣的一個類比也是不合理的，也是不對的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們認為，每一個人民聲請基本權的憲法救濟，不管是多少件，每一件都是重要的，委員也贊成……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們並沒有否定人民聲請釋憲的權利，只是要不要從嚴，我們要採取更高程度地保障人民的釋憲權，到底是不是應該受理，或者不受理，這個難道不應該經過更多的大法官一起討論嗎？所以你們也是在誤導民眾。我們並沒有耽擱人民的釋憲聲請權，那麼能不能進行到案子的審理、排案，這是憲法法庭自己要去規劃的，等到有足額的大法官再來一起審理，這樣不是更能夠保障人民的釋憲聲請權嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們就是憂慮，假設沒有辦法達到，因為這樣子的修法達不到可以開會的基本門檻的時候，這麼多人民的這些案件連審查也不能審，已經受理的案件也不能判，而有一些案件對於人民的救濟其實還蠻急迫，所以我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以寧可就都不要這些大法官，反正少少的人就可以審，你們也覺得這樣是程序的保障嗎？大法官自己做了，就是死刑的重要案子都要一致決，涉及到人民的基本權利保障，而涉及到法律制度的健全，不就更應該要採高標準進行裁判、進行審理嗎？我認為，副秘書長應該回去反映給現在的院長，他還剩下幾天就要卸任，請他還是要跟賴總統講，如果我們未來審查大法官人事同意權可能不見得完全通過，有少部分通過的話，他也要尊重民意，能夠重新提出新的名單，好不好？OK，那就先這樣。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-6","speakers":["吳宗憲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","洪申翰","陳俊宇","賴士葆","謝龍介","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","傅崐萁","蔡易餘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「憲法訴訟法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等\n16人擬具「憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1138701_00001"}}}