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\"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"珊\", \"start\": 949.712, \"end\": 949.913, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 949.913, \"end\": 949.934, \"score\": 0.052}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,359 --> 00:00:07,899\n林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:31,155 --> 00:00:48,368\n左院長、邱部長,我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比,我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6,那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣?好,謝謝委員的關心\n\n3\n00:00:54,238 --> 00:01:22,001\n三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法\n\n4\n00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:50,225\n現在我們目前當然就一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:51,772 --> 00:02:04,254\n現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛婦、醫婦,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們\n\n6\n00:02:06,045 --> 00:02:16,398\n行政院有很多措施,比較一月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。\n\n7\n00:02:23,547 --> 00:02:44,794\n部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料\n\n8\n00:02:45,874 --> 00:03:03,302\n嘉義縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得會比以前更嚴重\n\n9\n00:03:04,226 --> 00:03:12,677\n老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成有21%的全台灣人口,有2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。\n\n10\n00:03:19,286 --> 00:03:20,067\n我想日本比我們更早\n\n11\n00:03:45,202 --> 00:04:06,851\n日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大概是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽\n\n12\n00:04:08,692 --> 00:04:08,832\n主席\n\n13\n00:04:24,338 --> 00:04:46,415\n所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%\n\n14\n00:04:48,208 --> 00:04:58,556\n所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔\n\n15\n00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:00,121\n部長,您說是不是?\n\n16\n00:05:21,184 --> 00:05:35,043\n對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從\n\n17\n00:05:36,304 --> 00:05:36,804\n八字亮表\n\n18\n00:05:57,403 --> 00:06:19,162\n其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的\n\n19\n00:06:20,163 --> 00:06:30,794\n很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?\n\n20\n00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:59,568\n八字量表它的這個制度存在多年,它現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在,現在要申請一個看護,我們有多元免評的方式,其實八字量表只是當中多元免評,多元當中一種條件,它沒有八字量表,還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成,比方說經過長照的需求,有6個月以上的服務,或者輕度的失智症,\n\n21\n00:07:03,511 --> 00:07:16,666\n我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?\n\n22\n00:07:23,021 --> 00:07:48,653\n還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴氏量表他們有沒有請所以說是不是除了巴氏量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢\n\n23\n00:07:49,861 --> 00:08:12,094\n報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的\n\n24\n00:08:14,415 --> 00:08:39,414\n其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話齁說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統\n\n25\n00:08:40,868 --> 00:09:02,904\n因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人\n\n26\n00:09:04,645 --> 00:09:11,870\n所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助\n\n27\n00:09:31,844 --> 00:09:56,918\n是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上\n\n28\n00:09:59,319 --> 00:10:24,711\n甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要\n\n29\n00:10:25,615 --> 00:10:42,997\n去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表\n\n30\n00:10:43,666 --> 00:10:44,046\n那如果說一定會過嗎?\n\n31\n00:10:56,823 --> 00:11:24,356\n老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人\n\n32\n00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:53,579\n那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎\n\n33\n00:11:55,814 --> 00:12:13,921\n六個月三個月你去申請三個月他就安排外勞過來六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬\n\n34\n00:12:14,941 --> 00:12:20,063\n我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請\n\n35\n00:12:41,704 --> 00:13:03,656\n另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。\n\n36\n00:13:10,578 --> 00:13:11,219\n刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。\n\n37\n00:13:31,331 --> 00:13:58,049\n主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。\n\n38\n00:14:00,170 --> 00:14:23,699\n我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工\n\n39\n00:14:24,119 --> 00:14:50,703\n不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,\n\n40\n00:14:52,205 --> 00:15:13,998\n一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望\n\n41\n00:15:14,438 --> 00:15:14,918\n好謝謝林委員謝謝卓院長\n\n42\n00:15:47,735 --> 00:15:49,934\n下一位請黃珊珊委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7359\t7899\t林委員好\n31155\t48368\t左院長、邱部長,我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比,我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6,那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣?好,謝謝委員的關心\n54238\t82001\t三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法\n84100\t110225\t現在我們目前當然就一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?\n111772\t124254\t現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛婦、醫婦,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們\n126045\t136398\t行政院有很多措施,比較一月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。\n143547\t164794\t部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料\n165874\t183302\t嘉義縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得會比以前更嚴重\n184226\t192677\t老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成有21%的全台灣人口,有2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。\n199286\t200067\t我想日本比我們更早\n225202\t246851\t日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大概是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽\n248692\t248832\t主席\n264338\t286415\t所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%\n288208\t298556\t所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔\n299400\t300121\t部長,您說是不是?\n321184\t335043\t對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從\n336304\t336804\t八字亮表\n357403\t379162\t其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的\n380163\t390794\t很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?\n392490\t419568\t八字量表它的這個制度存在多年,它現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在,現在要申請一個看護,我們有多元免評的方式,其實八字量表只是當中多元免評,多元當中一種條件,它沒有八字量表,還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成,比方說經過長照的需求,有6個月以上的服務,或者輕度的失智症,\n423511\t436666\t我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?\n443021\t468653\t還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴氏量表他們有沒有請所以說是不是除了巴氏量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢\n469861\t492094\t報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的\n494415\t519414\t其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話齁說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統\n520868\t542904\t因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人\n544645\t551870\t所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助\n571844\t596918\t是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上 只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上\n599319\t624711\t甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要\n625615\t642997\t去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表\n643666\t644046\t那如果說一定會過嗎?\n656823\t684356\t老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人\n684980\t713579\t那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎\n715814\t733921\t六個月 三個月你去申請 三個月他就安排外勞過來 六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞 他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬\n734941\t740063\t我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請\n761704\t783656\t另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。\n790578\t791219\t刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。\n811331\t838049\t主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。\n840170\t863699\t我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工\n864119\t890703\t不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,\n892205\t913998\t一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望\n914438\t914918\t好 謝謝林委員 謝謝卓院長\n947735\t949934\t下一位請黃珊珊委員\n","txt":"林委員好\n左院長、邱部長,我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比,我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6,那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣?好,謝謝委員的關心\n三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法\n現在我們目前當然就一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?\n現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛婦、醫婦,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們\n行政院有很多措施,比較一月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。\n部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料\n嘉義縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得會比以前更嚴重\n老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成有21%的全台灣人口,有2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。\n我想日本比我們更早\n日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大概是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽\n主席\n所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%\n所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔\n部長,您說是不是?\n對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從\n八字亮表\n其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的\n很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?\n八字量表它的這個制度存在多年,它現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在,現在要申請一個看護,我們有多元免評的方式,其實八字量表只是當中多元免評,多元當中一種條件,它沒有八字量表,還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成,比方說經過長照的需求,有6個月以上的服務,或者輕度的失智症,\n我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?\n還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴氏量表他們有沒有請所以說是不是除了巴氏量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢\n報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的\n其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話齁說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統\n因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人\n所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助\n是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上 只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上\n甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要\n去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表\n那如果說一定會過嗎?\n老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人\n那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎\n六個月 三個月你去申請 三個月他就安排外勞過來 六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞 他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬\n我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請\n另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。\n刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。\n主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。\n我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工\n不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,\n一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望\n好 謝謝林委員 謝謝卓院長\n下一位請黃珊珊委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.359 --> 00:07.899\n林委員好\n\n00:31.155 --> 00:48.368\n左院長、邱部長,我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比,我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6,那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣?好,謝謝委員的關心\n\n00:54.238 --> 01:22.001\n三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法\n\n01:24.100 --> 01:50.225\n現在我們目前當然就一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?\n\n01:51.772 --> 02:04.254\n現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛婦、醫婦,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們\n\n02:06.045 --> 02:16.398\n行政院有很多措施,比較一月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。\n\n02:23.547 --> 02:44.794\n部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料\n\n02:45.874 --> 03:03.302\n嘉義縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得會比以前更嚴重\n\n03:04.226 --> 03:12.677\n老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成有21%的全台灣人口,有2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。\n\n03:19.286 --> 03:20.067\n我想日本比我們更早\n\n03:45.202 --> 04:06.851\n日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大概是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽\n\n04:08.692 --> 04:08.832\n主席\n\n04:24.338 --> 04:46.415\n所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%\n\n04:48.208 --> 04:58.556\n所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔\n\n04:59.400 --> 05:00.121\n部長,您說是不是?\n\n05:21.184 --> 05:35.043\n對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從\n\n05:36.304 --> 05:36.804\n八字亮表\n\n05:57.403 --> 06:19.162\n其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的\n\n06:20.163 --> 06:30.794\n很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?\n\n06:32.490 --> 06:59.568\n八字量表它的這個制度存在多年,它現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在,現在要申請一個看護,我們有多元免評的方式,其實八字量表只是當中多元免評,多元當中一種條件,它沒有八字量表,還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成,比方說經過長照的需求,有6個月以上的服務,或者輕度的失智症,\n\n07:03.511 --> 07:16.666\n我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?\n\n07:23.021 --> 07:48.653\n還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴氏量表他們有沒有請所以說是不是除了巴氏量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢\n\n07:49.861 --> 08:12.094\n報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的\n\n08:14.415 --> 08:39.414\n其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話齁說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統\n\n08:40.868 --> 09:02.904\n因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人\n\n09:04.645 --> 09:11.870\n所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助\n\n09:31.844 --> 09:56.918\n是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上\n\n09:59.319 --> 10:24.711\n甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要\n\n10:25.615 --> 10:42.997\n去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表\n\n10:43.666 --> 10:44.046\n那如果說一定會過嗎?\n\n10:56.823 --> 11:24.356\n老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人\n\n11:24.980 --> 11:53.579\n那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎\n\n11:55.814 --> 12:13.921\n六個月三個月你去申請三個月他就安排外勞過來六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬\n\n12:14.941 --> 12:20.063\n我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請\n\n12:41.704 --> 13:03.656\n另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。\n\n13:10.578 --> 13:11.219\n刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。\n\n13:31.331 --> 13:58.049\n主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。\n\n14:00.170 --> 14:23.699\n我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工\n\n14:24.119 --> 14:50.703\n不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,\n\n14:52.205 --> 15:13.998\n一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望\n\n15:14.438 --> 15:14.918\n好謝謝林委員謝謝卓院長\n\n15:47.735 --> 15:49.934\n下一位請黃珊珊委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.359,"end":7.899,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":31.155,"end":48.368,"text":"左院長、邱部長,我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到的這個三班一戶比,我記得今年總統大選的時候提到說希望能加到1比6,那我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣?好,謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":54.238,"end":82.001,"text":"三班醫護比現在目前是今年公告的醫院三班的護病比標準是經過大家的一個研議我們預計兩年後要入法當然這個中間必須要跟醫護團體跟各級的醫院代表共同來協商才能夠三方取得共識所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法"},{"start":84.1,"end":110.225,"text":"現在我們目前當然就一直在督促所有的醫院來不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班都能夠達到我們現在需要的訂定的護病比並同時給他獎勵。好部長那我也順便再問一下我們全台灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題請問現在護士短缺請問你有什麼改善方案嗎?"},{"start":111.772,"end":124.254,"text":"現在是這樣子,如果說我們比較一頁的時候到現在,其實我們是增加了3萬095個衛婦、醫婦,在大家的努力之下,委員關心我們"},{"start":126.045,"end":136.398,"text":"行政院有很多措施,比較一月我們增加了3095人,在醫院這個部分就也增加了1513人,我們預計在明年能夠增加到7500人。"},{"start":143.547,"end":164.794,"text":"部長其實你你也知道我也知道這是遠遠不夠滿足不了需求的而老實說為什麼我這麼專關注這個問題因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會這點你知道而且你也知道說本來國發會是明年才進入進入超高齡社會但是今年就我這邊資料"},{"start":165.874,"end":183.302,"text":"嘉義縣、台中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上那邊的人口超過65歲以上所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候那現在護士的失蹤就變得會比以前更嚴重"},{"start":184.226,"end":192.677,"text":"老實說,2026年可能全台灣正式會進入超高齡社會,而因為就變成有21%的全台灣人口,有2400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。"},{"start":199.286,"end":200.067,"text":"我想日本比我們更早"},{"start":225.202,"end":246.851,"text":"日本嘛好所以日本的話其實在日本我們大概是我們是我們希望說我們未來社會國家變成一個典範可是院長老實說有一句話我們都不想提叫生不如死但是生不如死我講的不是其他的就是單單純純對於高齡化社會來講如果不能健康舒適的生活那麼長壽"},{"start":248.692,"end":248.832,"text":"主席"},{"start":264.338,"end":286.415,"text":"所謂的扶老比也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲以上的比例2014年我們全臺灣只有16.19%也就16%左右可是在今年就已經高達將近28%短短10年之間我們到達12%的人到65歲以上而且再來2027年可能將近到33%"},{"start":288.208,"end":298.556,"text":"所以這個問題就跟我們講說其實這個我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機但是高齡化的社會也是個國安危機喔"},{"start":299.4,"end":300.121,"text":"部長,您說是不是?"},{"start":321.184,"end":335.043,"text":"對,所以年齡的兩端年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢所以我們在年輕的我們用0到6歲國家養盡量鼓勵大家生養那麼在高齡的時候我們從"},{"start":336.304,"end":336.804,"text":"八字亮表"},{"start":357.403,"end":379.162,"text":"其實我們依據監察院的調查報告在113年111年的時候就已經有將近53萬的老人家需要家庭看護而其實登錄我們服務體系的照護人員不到10萬人我們引進了外籍看護工30多年到目前22萬人來支撐整個家庭的需求但是說真的"},{"start":380.163,"end":390.794,"text":"很多人在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴士量表這個關卡而且請問院長你知道因為巴士量表要申請外籍康復工衍生出來哪些問題嗎?"},{"start":392.49,"end":419.568,"text":"八字量表它的這個制度存在多年,它現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途存在,現在要申請一個看護,我們有多元免評的方式,其實八字量表只是當中多元免評,多元當中一種條件,它沒有八字量表,還可以有其他的這個條件可以完成,比方說經過長照的需求,有6個月以上的服務,或者輕度的失智症,"},{"start":423.511,"end":436.666,"text":"我其實不是故意打斷,因為我覺得這件事我想問,剛剛邱部長有講到日本是極高齡社會的國家,那日本有沒有巴士量表?日本有沒有採用巴士量表?"},{"start":443.021,"end":468.653,"text":"還是請衛福部部長還是請勞工部部長請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表日本的如果說日本已經進入極高齡社會國家的話那事實上來講他們對長照我們也知道日本的長照系統長照照護比我們台灣好那請問日本他們怎麼使用巴氏量表他們有沒有請所以說是不是除了巴氏量表之外有其他的方法來去鑑定說老人家需要照護呢"},{"start":469.861,"end":492.094,"text":"報告委員,其他國家不一定有巴氏量表,我剛剛跟委員報告的是巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些工人,比如他要申請一些在這個健康輔具上面他必須有一個資格認定等等,而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場它有一點點平衡的作用,但是現在不需要巴氏量表,還是可以經過多元免評的其他的"},{"start":494.415,"end":519.414,"text":"其實我這邊為什麼特地講這個因為老實說如果讓這個扶幼這個扶老比繼續往上爬的話齁說真的對我們國家競爭力對我們不要講別人對我們這一輩的人只會越來越辛苦而且我們知道這樣的社會是來的所以說既然外籍看護是長照系統最重要的人力我會建議說把他們適合的整合進入長照系統"},{"start":520.868,"end":542.904,"text":"因為老實講如果你分成兩個互信甚至互相排擠的話那其實對於說整個我們台灣未來遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助甚至這樣講我直接這樣講好了去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人其中因為照顧65歲的家人無法工作的人超過15萬人"},{"start":544.645,"end":551.87,"text":"所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度像剛剛說的之外我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式讓需要照顧需要陪伴的人他可以更有彈性更激動的去得到一些必要的協助"},{"start":571.844,"end":596.918,"text":"是老實講我們都一直在講說高齡人口越來越多我剛剛提供的數據還是如果邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道說這是很嚴重的危機因為臺灣的平均年齡只是往上 只會往上走可是生產人生產子的人越來越少那如果說高齡人口越來越多供需早就供應不足或者是這個看護的話那請問院長您知不知時80歲以上"},{"start":599.319,"end":624.711,"text":"甚至70到79歲患有癌症二期的人免除巴氏量表即可申請外籍看護員看護工呢?現在多元免評裡面的條件就可以他不一定要巴氏量表他是可以申請到看護的不過很多時候他們還是就是說還是需要巴氏量表的話如果說只是單純不一定需要巴氏量表巴氏量表是剛剛說過他可能要"},{"start":625.615,"end":642.997,"text":"去做某一種功能跟目的去申請一些補助如果沒有這些事情他完全不需要其實院長這就是為什麼巴士量表這個案這問題上他會讓大家覺得很不舒服不管是長照機構還是醫生還是各方面這個巴士量表人家又戲稱為功德量表"},{"start":643.666,"end":644.046,"text":"那如果說一定會過嗎?"},{"start":656.823,"end":684.356,"text":"老實講我們有太多我們現在法令上看到所遇到的狀況是說單純的是說他們需要巴士量表那他們一定要巴士量表他們才能過關可是因為他們的狀況不是完全符合院長你剛剛講提這個多元的這個這個多元的狀況請部長答覆一下現在用吧好是的我想剛剛院長跟部長勞動部部長都有提到我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人"},{"start":684.98,"end":713.579,"text":"那我們其實在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情那醫界的意見還是覺得有他的價值所以來篩檢一些但是他的年齡幾歲這個可以來討論這樣子你知道部長那我們就這樣講好了因為巴氏量表你知道如果成功申請一個巴氏量表從開始申請到成功申請到外勞動性要多久時間嗎"},{"start":715.814,"end":733.921,"text":"六個月 三個月你去申請 三個月他就安排外勞過來 六個月的時間我自己有個朋友他在六個月的時間他媽媽出現狀況之後他六個月的時間他不能申請外勞 他每天花三千塊一年花了四十五萬"},{"start":734.941,"end":740.063,"text":"我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴士量表就得到申請"},{"start":761.704,"end":783.656,"text":"另外一半可能他本身他符合這個巴斯亮表的規定,另外一半是不用,人數大概有6萬人左右,是不用巴斯亮表的規定。我們已經全面在放寬,巴斯亮表有它存在的一些功能。為什麼我特意提80歲以上,為什麼我把它降低到70歲以上,為什麼是80歲以上,因為80歲以上在健康來講,在醫院在醫療來講,是高風險族群。"},{"start":790.578,"end":791.219,"text":"刊錄工供給面的顧慮跟他的分析請部長答覆一下。"},{"start":811.331,"end":838.049,"text":"主要是如果我只用80歲來當一個界限的話,因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面,其實健康的人還是非常多啦。那麼我們現在是一個缺工的時代,因為我們也同時在跟日本在韓國在競爭在搶這樣的看護工,所以就怕來這邊的就會變看護工在家工作,然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧。"},{"start":840.17,"end":863.699,"text":"我們關區工的問題老實講我們現在有這麼多勞工但是老實說我們也很多外籍勞工在落跑對吧我們有差不多幾成我記得當初跟我講三成還是更高外籍勞工我們找了22萬人不少人現在是找不到的那變成是說外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道所以我剛剛有特地提到說能不能把外籍看護工"},{"start":864.119,"end":890.703,"text":"不是用這個每個總平均薪資差不多2萬3每日工作10個小時來去做,而是直接把它納入長老體系,讓他們待遇可以好一點,讓他們可以願意在台灣留久一點,他們願意工作比較實際一點,比較實在一點,我覺得這是下一步,如果巴士量表,我還是認為巴士量表應該考慮說,因為部長也好,院長也好,80歲離我們很近,而且隨時都會拔豆,"},{"start":892.205,"end":913.998,"text":"一個跌倒本來很健康的人馬上就變失智有沒有可能有我身邊看到好多這種狀況那等到說你跌倒之後再急急忙忙去找一個外勞老實說他本來就需要他本來就有資格但是如果他如果沒有用如果老實說沒有人希望被如果沒有一個年長者會希望被人家看扶著跟老人一樣沒有人會希望"},{"start":914.438,"end":914.918,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":947.735,"end":949.934,"text":"下一位請黃珊珊委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":421,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請院長跟邱部長。"],["主席：請院長還有邱部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長、邱部長。我記得我上一次在院會質詢的時候有提到三班醫護比，我記得今年總統大選的時候提到希望能降到1比6，我想知道現在的進度怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心。三班醫護比目前的狀況，今年公告的醫院三班護病比標準是經過大家的研議，我們預計兩年後要入法，當然這中間必須要跟醫護團體、跟各級醫院代表共同協商，三方才能夠取得共識。"],["林委員沛祥：所以要等到兩年之後才能正式入法？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們目前當然一直在督促所有醫院，不管是白班、小夜班、大夜班，都能夠達到我們現在訂定的護病比，並同時給予獎勵。"],["林委員沛祥：好，部長，那我也順便再問一下，我們全臺灣其實都知道現在護士短缺的問題，請問對於現在護士短缺，你有什麼改善方案嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：現在是這樣子，如果我們比較1月的時候到現在……在大家的努力之下、委員關心、我們行政院也有很多措施，比較1月，我們增加了3,095人，在醫院這個部分也增加了1,513人，我們預計明年能夠增加到7,500人。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，其實你也知道、我也知道，這是遠遠不夠、滿足不了需求的。老實說，為什麼我這麼關注這個問題，因為我們現在臺灣已經正式進入所謂的超高齡社會，這點你知道！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員沛祥：而且你也知道國發會方面，未來是明年才進入超高齡社會，但是今年，就我這邊的資料，嘉義縣、臺中市、南投縣、雲林縣、基隆市跟屏東縣就已經有20%以上人口超過65歲以上，所以已經變成超高齡社會的時候，現在護士的吃重就變得比以前更嚴重。老實說，2026年可能全臺灣正式會進入超高齡社會，變成全臺灣人口裡面有21%、2,400萬人會是65歲以上的人口。而如果以國發會給我的資料，在2036年，也就是在12年之後，我們高達28%，所謂的極高齡化社會，這是國發會給我的資料，甚至說可能這個速度還會更快！那我就想請問部長，以你的專業，世界上有哪個國家目前已經進入極高齡社會的？"],["邱部長泰源：我想日本比我們更早。"],["林委員沛祥：日本嘛，好。所以日本的話，其實日本是大家希望我們未來社會國家變成的一個典範。可是院長，老實說，有一句話我們都不想提，叫「生不如死」，但是生不如死，我講的不是其他的，就是單單純純對高齡化社會來講，如果不能健康舒適的生活，那麼長壽搞不好是另外一種折磨，對於自己也好，還是對於自己所愛的人也好。所以為什麼我會一直針對三班醫護比，因為這是在醫療的時候就會遇到的狀況。可是在社會來講，部長，所謂的扶老比，也就是65歲以下去照顧65歲上的比例，2014年全臺灣只有16.19%，也就是16%左右，可是在今年就已經高達將近28%，短短10年之間，我們達到12%的人、到65歲以上，再來2027年可能將近33%。所以這個問題就是跟我們說，我們常常聽說少子化是國安危機，但是高齡化的社會，也是個國安危機喔！少子化加高齡化社會加起來是個所謂的完美風暴！變成我們是個沒有競爭、競爭力衰退，而且不幸福的國家。如果當越來越多65歲以下的工作人口去照顧65歲以上的人的話，那實質上，我們的經濟競爭力一定會往下掉。院長，您說是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，年齡的兩端，年輕的跟高齡化是全世界現在的一個嚴重的問題跟趨勢，所以我們在年輕的部分有零到六歲國家養，儘量鼓勵大家生養；在高齡的部分，我們從長照2.0要進到長照3.0；中間這一段我們用很多的社會投資、家庭支持來彌補這樣的一個過程。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長謝謝，既然您也認同高齡人口的照護是我們直視、直接面對國安危機很重要的一塊，我就必須把這件事拿出來講──巴氏量表。依據監察院的調查報告，在111年的時候就已經有將近53萬個老人家需要家庭看護，其實登錄在服務體系的照護人員卻不到10萬人。我們引進了外籍看護工三十多年，到目前有22萬人在支撐整個家庭的需求，但是說真的，很多在我們身邊的親戚朋友都有遇到巴氏量表的這個關卡。請問院長知道因為用巴氏量表申請外籍看護工而衍生出哪些問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：巴氏量表的制度存在多年，現在是為了某一些特定的功能跟用途而存在。現在要申請一個看護，我們有多元免評的方式，其實巴氏量表只是多元當中的一種條件，沒有巴氏量表，還可以有其他的條件可以完成，比方說經過長照需求6個月以上的服務，或是輕度失智症，已經放寬很多……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我其實不是故意要打斷你，因為我覺得這件事我想問，剛剛邱部長有講到，日本是極高齡社會的國家，日本有沒有用巴氏量表？日本有沒有採用巴氏量表？還是請衛福部或勞動部部長？請問日本有沒有使用巴氏量表？如果日本是已經進入極高齡社會的國家的話，事實上他們對長照……我們也知道日本的長照系統、長照照護比我們臺灣好，請問日本使不使用巴氏量表？是不是除了巴氏量表之外，還有其他的方法可以鑑定老人家需要照護呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，其他國家不一定有巴氏量表，我剛剛跟委員報告的是，巴氏量表現在的存在是為了某一些功能，比方他在申請一些健康輔具上必須要有的資格認定等等，而且巴氏量表的存在對整個市場有一點點平衡的作用，但是現在不需要巴氏量表，還是可以經過多元免評以其他的條件申請到僱傭，這才是重點。"],["林委員沛祥：我在這邊為什麼要特地講到這個？因為老實說，如果讓扶老比繼續往上爬的話，說真的對我們國家的競爭力，就不講別人，對我們這一輩的人來說只會愈來愈辛苦，而且我們知道，這樣的社會是會來的。所以既然外籍看護是長照系統中重要的人力，我建議把他們適合的整合進長照系統。","因為老實講，如果你分成兩個路徑甚至是互相排擠的話，對於整個臺灣未來會遇到的國安危機沒有任何的幫助。甚至這樣講，我直接這樣講好了，去年5月從25歲到64歲沒有就業的人就有287萬人，其中因為照顧65歲的家人而無法工作的人超過15萬人，而且這15萬人大多數是女性，不管對女性的工作權益也好，還是對社會生產力也好，都是一個很大的損傷。院長，您認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會有很多新的方式跟制度，除了剛剛說的之外，我們現在也會採用多元陪伴的方式，讓需要照顧、需要陪伴的人可以更有彈性、更機動地去得到一些必要的協助。"],["林委員沛祥：老實講，我們都一直在講高齡人口愈來愈多，我剛剛提供的數據，還是邱部長私底下跟院長你們也知道這是很嚴重的危機，因為臺灣的平均年齡只會往上走，可是生孩子的人卻愈來愈少。如果高齡人口愈來愈多，看護的供需早就供應不足，請問院長您支不支持80歲以上，甚至是70歲到79歲患有癌症二期的人，可以免除巴氏量表，即可申請外籍看護員、看護工呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在符合多元免評裡面的條件就可以，不一定要做巴氏量表，他是可以申請到看護的。"],["林委員沛祥：不過很多時候他們還是……譬如還是需要巴氏量表的話，如果只是幫……需要巴氏量表。"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定需要巴氏量表，我剛剛說過，他可能要去做某一種功能和目的，去申請一些補助，如果沒有這些事情，他完全不需要。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，其實這就是為什麼巴氏量表這個問題上面會讓人家覺得很不舒服，不管是長照機構，還是醫生，還是各方面，巴氏量表被人家又戲稱為功德量表，變成是醫生不開會被罵，醫生開了也被罵，然後如果一堆狀況因為巴氏量表一直衍生出來，大家都很頭痛……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有巴氏量表，他還是可以申請到看護啊！"],["林委員沛祥：一定會過嗎？老實講，有太多我們現在法令上看到、遇到的狀況，單純的是說他們需要巴氏量表，一定要巴氏量表，他們才能過關，可是他們的狀況不是完全符合院長剛剛提的多元的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復一下，現在用巴氏量表的情況。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想剛剛院長及勞動部部長都有提到，我們多元免評這個部分其實也通過了非常多的人，我們在醫療界也曾經討論過巴氏量表要不要取消或者是怎麼樣調整這件事情，那醫界的意見還是覺得有它的價值，可以來篩減一些，但是他的年齡幾歲可以來討論。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我們就這樣講好了，如果成功申請，一個巴氏量表，從開始申請到成功申請到外勞，你知道中間要多久時間嗎？6個月，3個月你去申請過了之後，3個月他就要安排外勞過來，6個月的時間。我自己有一個朋友，他媽媽出現狀況之後，他6個月的時間不能申請外勞，他每天花3,000塊，一年花了45萬。像這樣的案子，不會是個例，不會是特例，而是通例的時候，是不是可以cut the quite short，是不是可以把這個冗長的程序儘量減少，讓我們的民眾可以多輕鬆一點呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們……"],["林委員沛祥：一天3,000塊。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年大概前三季的申請人數幾乎有一半是免用巴氏量表就得到申請了，另外一半可能本身符合巴氏量表的規定，另外一半是不用，人數大概有6萬人左右，是不用巴氏量表的情形。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，這是我擔心的地方，因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經全面在放寬，巴氏量表有它存在的一些功能和目的。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼我特意提80歲以上，為什麼不把它降低到70歲以上，為什麼是80歲以上？因為在健康來講、在醫院及醫療來講，80歲以上是高風險族群，隨時一個跌倒，本來很健康的人馬上就癱瘓，馬上就需要幫忙，這個是最重要的原因，為什麼提80歲以上，還有70到79歲患有癌症二期的，因為他們身體本來就虛弱。"],["卓院長榮泰：看護工供給面的顧慮及它的分析，請部長答復一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，跟委員報告，主要是如果用80歲來當一個界線的話，因為80歲以上基本上在現在的醫療條件裡面健康的人還是非常多，而且我們現在是一個缺工的時代，我們也同時跟日本、韓國在競爭、在搶這樣的看護工，所以就怕來這邊的……"],["林委員沛祥：老實講，有關缺工的問題……"],["何部長佩珊：會變成看護工在挑工作……"],["林委員沛祥：有關缺工的問題，其實……"],["何部長佩珊：然後需要被照顧的人無法得到照顧，主要是有這個顧慮。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，有關缺工的問題，老實講，我們現在有這麼多勞工，但是我們也很多外籍勞工「落跑」，對吧！我記得當初跟我講三成，還是更高？外籍勞工我們找來22萬人，不少人現在是找不到的。外籍勞工的辛苦我們也知道，所以我剛剛有特地提到，能不能把外籍看護工不是用總平均薪資二萬三、每日工作10個小時這樣子去做，而是直接納入長照體系……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員沛祥：讓他們待遇可以好一點，讓他們願意在臺灣留久一點，讓他們工作比較實在一點，我覺得這是下一步。我還是認為巴氏量表應該考慮說……因為部長也好，院長也好，80歲離我們很近，而且隨時都會跌倒，一個跌倒，本來很健康的人馬上就變失智，有沒有可能？有，我身邊看到好多這種狀況，如果等到跌倒之後，再急急忙忙去找一個外勞，他本來就需要，他本來就有資格，老實說，沒有一個年長者會希望被人家扶著，跟老人一樣，沒有人會希望，但是他需要的時候我們卻不能直接給他，要麻煩這些現在在職場上工作的人去照顧他，除了情何以堪之外，這對我們自己的經濟壓力負擔有多大！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，外籍看護工進入長照體系，我們是支持的，我們現在推的多元陪伴服務方案就是往這個方向在進行。"],["林委員沛祥：我會認為巴氏量表的問題是不是可以考慮看看？因為80歲很容易出事，這是一個分水嶺。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}}