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0.889}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 920.327, \"end\": 920.507, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 920.507, \"end\": 920.647, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 920.647, \"end\": 920.667, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:01,730\n第12號葉元之委員質詢。喂\n\n2\n00:00:29,762 --> 00:00:34,023\n院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:58,353 --> 00:00:59,894\n三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n\n4\n00:01:15,288 --> 00:01:40,679\n有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,\n\n5\n00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:53,394\n先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診\n\n6\n00:01:55,179 --> 00:01:59,103\n在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的\n\n7\n00:02:15,988 --> 00:02:34,741\n還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。\n\n8\n00:02:36,638 --> 00:02:54,869\n有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。\n\n9\n00:02:55,689 --> 00:03:23,618\n並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。\n\n10\n00:03:24,218 --> 00:03:47,409\n那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?\n\n11\n00:03:50,384 --> 00:04:14,876\n這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。\n\n12\n00:04:16,189 --> 00:04:31,141\n就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是\n\n13\n00:04:33,078 --> 00:04:53,814\n行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛\n\n14\n00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:17,762\n那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。\n\n15\n00:05:18,283 --> 00:05:33,590\n那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來\n\n16\n00:05:35,351 --> 00:05:35,371\n韓國瑜議員\n\n17\n00:05:50,106 --> 00:06:17,225\n遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那\n\n18\n00:06:17,745 --> 00:06:40,861\n部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡\n\n19\n00:06:42,133 --> 00:07:02,575\n所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經\n\n20\n00:07:03,095 --> 00:07:05,756\n現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊\n\n21\n00:07:22,122 --> 00:07:22,242\n法務部長\n\n22\n00:07:49,841 --> 00:08:09,507\n報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及\n\n23\n00:08:10,974 --> 00:08:31,543\n所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值\n\n24\n00:08:32,903 --> 00:08:58,391\n並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。\n\n25\n00:09:00,168 --> 00:09:05,671\n那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天\n\n26\n00:09:06,874 --> 00:09:35,851\n有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思\n\n27\n00:09:36,391 --> 00:09:36,551\n新核能技術\n\n28\n00:09:51,687 --> 00:10:04,405\n我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。\n\n29\n00:10:09,599 --> 00:10:28,902\n新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。\n\n30\n00:10:29,304 --> 00:10:53,073\n有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,\n\n31\n00:10:54,153 --> 00:10:58,944\n還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎\n\n32\n00:10:59,751 --> 00:10:59,771\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n\n33\n00:11:27,842 --> 00:11:31,204\n你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?\n\n34\n00:11:31,204 --> 00:11:38,969\n有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?\n\n35\n00:11:39,997 --> 00:12:02,472\n大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程\n\n36\n00:12:03,957 --> 00:12:24,314\n這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛\n\n37\n00:12:24,774 --> 00:12:25,254\n臨時提案委員．葉元之\n\n38\n00:12:39,784 --> 00:12:49,495\n包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。\n\n39\n00:12:58,044 --> 00:13:12,157\n如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,\n\n40\n00:13:14,659 --> 00:13:41,193\n目前以我們的對話來講報告委員核能本身是沒有罪過的但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了但是你在缺電的時候核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊所以這才會這個議題還會一直被討論嘛後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉我只要提起院長啦就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料你也有責任處理核安\n\n41\n00:13:41,633 --> 00:14:10,625\n而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成\n\n42\n00:14:25,994 --> 00:14:45,560\n為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!\n\n43\n00:14:50,822 --> 00:15:17,057\n然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局\n\n44\n00:15:18,305 --> 00:15:20,667\n我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t1730\t第12號 葉元之委員質詢。喂\n29762\t34023\t院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。 麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。 院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?\n58353\t59894\t三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n75288\t100679\t有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,\n103200\t113394\t先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診\n115179\t119103\t在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的\n135988\t154741\t還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。\n156638\t174869\t有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。\n175689\t203618\t並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。 我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。 你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。\n204218\t227409\t那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。 人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?\n230384\t254876\t這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。\n256189\t271141\t就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是\n273078\t293814\t行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛\n302140\t317762\t那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。\n318283\t333590\t那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來\n335351\t335371\t韓國瑜議員\n350106\t377225\t遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那\n377745\t400861\t部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡\n402133\t422575\t所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經\n423095\t425756\t現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊\n442122\t442242\t法務部長\n469841\t489507\t報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。 第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及\n490974\t511543\t所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值\n512903\t538391\t並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。 我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。 院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。\n540168\t545671\t那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天\n546874\t575851\t有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長 院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思\n576391\t576551\t新核能技術\n591687\t604405\t我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。\n609599\t628902\t新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。\n629304\t653073\t有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,\n654153\t658944\t還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎\n659751\t659771\t二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n687842\t691204\t你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?\n691204\t698969\t有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?\n699997\t722472\t大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程\n723957\t744314\t這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛\n744774\t745254\t臨時提案委員．葉元之\n759784\t769495\t包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。\n778044\t792157\t如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,\n794659\t821193\t目前以我們的對話來講 報告委員 核能本身是沒有罪過的 但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹 新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了 但是你在缺電的時候 核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊 所以這才會 這個議題還會一直被討論嘛 後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉 我只要提起院長啦 就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料 你也有責任處理核安\n821633\t850625\t而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成\n851425\t865384\t導閣\n865994\t885560\t為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!\n890822\t917057\t然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局\n918305\t920667\t我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情\n957585\t958166\t謝謝\n","txt":"第12號 葉元之委員質詢。喂\n院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。 麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。 院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?\n三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,\n先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診\n在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的\n還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。\n有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。\n並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。 我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。 你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。\n那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。 人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?\n這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。\n就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是\n行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛\n那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。\n那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來\n韓國瑜議員\n遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那\n部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡\n所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經\n現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊\n法務部長\n報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。 第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及\n所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值\n並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。 我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。 院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。\n那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天\n有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長 院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思\n新核能技術\n我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。\n新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。\n有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,\n還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?\n有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?\n大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程\n這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛\n臨時提案委員．葉元之\n包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。\n如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,\n目前以我們的對話來講 報告委員 核能本身是沒有罪過的 但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹 新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了 但是你在缺電的時候 核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊 所以這才會 這個議題還會一直被討論嘛 後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉 我只要提起院長啦 就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料 你也有責任處理核安\n而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成\n導閣\n為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!\n然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局\n我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:01.730\n第12號葉元之委員質詢。喂\n\n00:29.762 --> 00:34.023\n院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?\n\n00:58.353 --> 00:59.894\n三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間\n\n01:15.288 --> 01:40.679\n有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,\n\n01:43.200 --> 01:53.394\n先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診\n\n01:55.179 --> 01:59.103\n在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的\n\n02:15.988 --> 02:34.741\n還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。\n\n02:36.638 --> 02:54.869\n有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。\n\n02:55.689 --> 03:23.618\n並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。\n\n03:24.218 --> 03:47.409\n那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?\n\n03:50.384 --> 04:14.876\n這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。\n\n04:16.189 --> 04:31.141\n就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是\n\n04:33.078 --> 04:53.814\n行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛\n\n05:02.140 --> 05:17.762\n那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。\n\n05:18.283 --> 05:33.590\n那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來\n\n05:35.351 --> 05:35.371\n韓國瑜議員\n\n05:50.106 --> 06:17.225\n遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那\n\n06:17.745 --> 06:40.861\n部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡\n\n06:42.133 --> 07:02.575\n所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經\n\n07:03.095 --> 07:05.756\n現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊\n\n07:22.122 --> 07:22.242\n法務部長\n\n07:49.841 --> 08:09.507\n報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及\n\n08:10.974 --> 08:31.543\n所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值\n\n08:32.903 --> 08:58.391\n並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。\n\n09:00.168 --> 09:05.671\n那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天\n\n09:06.874 --> 09:35.851\n有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思\n\n09:36.391 --> 09:36.551\n新核能技術\n\n09:51.687 --> 10:04.405\n我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。\n\n10:09.599 --> 10:28.902\n新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。\n\n10:29.304 --> 10:53.073\n有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,\n\n10:54.153 --> 10:58.944\n還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎\n\n10:59.751 --> 10:59.771\n二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、\n\n11:27.842 --> 11:31.204\n你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?\n\n11:31.204 --> 11:38.969\n有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?\n\n11:39.997 --> 12:02.472\n大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程\n\n12:03.957 --> 12:24.314\n這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛\n\n12:24.774 --> 12:25.254\n臨時提案委員．葉元之\n\n12:39.784 --> 12:49.495\n包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。\n\n12:58.044 --> 13:12.157\n如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,\n\n13:14.659 --> 13:41.193\n目前以我們的對話來講報告委員核能本身是沒有罪過的但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了但是你在缺電的時候核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊所以這才會這個議題還會一直被討論嘛後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉我只要提起院長啦就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料你也有責任處理核安\n\n13:41.633 --> 14:10.625\n而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成\n\n14:25.994 --> 14:45.560\n為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!\n\n14:50.822 --> 15:17.057\n然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局\n\n15:18.305 --> 15:20.667\n我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":1.73,"text":"第12號 葉元之委員質詢。喂"},{"start":29.762,"end":34.023,"text":"院長好,麻煩請卓院長,謝謝。 麻煩再請卓院長備詢。葉委員好。 院長好,想跟院長先報告一件事情,我不知道院長了不了解,現在我們很多病人在急診室,如果他在急診需要治療之後,需要住院的話,在急診室的時間越來越長了,你有注意到這個現象嗎?"},{"start":58.353,"end":59.894,"text":"三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。 三、10月18日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":75.288,"end":100.679,"text":"有的在急診沒有床位,急診的病患是就地治療。還有的是他在輪椅上面電擊,急診室塞爆,沒有心跳才被發現。其實這個是不只是對醫療品質是很大的傷害,而且我覺得對病人也非常不尊重。但這個問題之前我們也反映給衛福部很多次,完全都沒有得到任何的改善。我先舉幾個數據給你看,第一個,"},{"start":103.2,"end":113.394,"text":"先講一個我們現在在國旅大概平均我們平均國旅大概是一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天可是你知道我們現在在急診"},{"start":115.179,"end":119.103,"text":"在113年的上半年就已經有19213位他在急診室待48小時以上我這個數字只有48小時的可能還有72小時的"},{"start":135.988,"end":154.741,"text":"還有甚至還有更高的,而且重點是他的比例是逐漸上升,你看111年比例是7.3%,到了112年8.3%,110上半年已經變成9%,這個數字看起來非常的就是沒有辦法控制,再看下一頁。"},{"start":156.638,"end":174.869,"text":"有些醫院,特別是台大醫院,台大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%,五分之一啊。新北土城醫院也是20%,也是五分之一。這個狀況這麼嚴重,那難道是因為病人變多,沒有病床嗎?並不是。"},{"start":175.689,"end":203.618,"text":"並不是,實際上是有病床,但是沒辦法開。 我們再來看一個數據,叫做這個叫佔床率,佔床率就是指說,他的醫院當初許可這麼多床,可是實際上他實際開的床是多少。 你可以看,比如說有些比較低的,像國泰只有56.42,還有一些是60幾%的,我沒有全部把它列出來,但是實際上佔床率大概要7成多才算正常。"},{"start":204.218,"end":227.409,"text":"那我不知道院長你知不知道這個狀況,他有床喔,但是沒有開,然後所以很多人就擠在急診室,沒有辦法上去併床,然後就會出現我們剛剛講的急診室非常多人的狀況,院長你知道這個情況嗎?應該是人力不足造成的。 人力不足,那確實是人力不足啊,對我有看到,那人力不足怎麼辦?"},{"start":230.384,"end":254.876,"text":"這是護理人員、護理師的人力,我們要強力的、快速的來補充。沒有用啊,現在就是沒有解決啊,因為這個事已經發生好幾個月,然後狀況越來越嚴重。我在未還委員會我也質詢過啊,當時希望部長給我資料嘛,去了解一下這個情形,但部長後來也不給資料啊。每次跟你們要資料,回的公文都是那種非常空洞,不願意針對問題回答,但是問題就是存在。"},{"start":256.189,"end":271.141,"text":"就護理人員的增加,剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的追詢當中已經有答覆了,如果容許再請部長再說明一次。是的,如果談護理人員的話,我們非常可以說是"},{"start":273.078,"end":293.814,"text":"行政院用12個策略來努力...部長你那個12個策略如果有用的話這個情況不會越來越嚴重如果我們比較一頁的話我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3095個五位的護理師在醫院增加了15、13...這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題啦我覺得問題是存在拿數字出來但是問題還是存在就沒有辦法解決沒有面對問題嘛"},{"start":302.14,"end":317.762,"text":"那現在護理師確實他們也有很多他們的所謂的抱怨嘛,譬如說他們覺得薪資不夠,然後還有就是比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床宿的配置,這個是護理師他們所提出來的。"},{"start":318.283,"end":333.59,"text":"那我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題啦就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛你現在一點大概本來應該要1.1元但是實際上現在可能是一點只有0.6元所以可以看得出來"},{"start":335.351,"end":335.371,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":350.106,"end":377.225,"text":"遵守立法院的主決議1點0.95元很多人講說你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話都在幫護士講話確實我們幫醫生講話幫護士講話因為他們非常辛苦更重要的是我們在幫病人講話我們整體來說是要提升醫療品質不是說在不是在幫哪一個族群講話所以光是健保點子這個沒有編到一點0.95元我覺得真的行政院真的有點對不起所有這麼多的民眾那"},{"start":377.745,"end":400.861,"text":"部長一直講說我們推出了什麼多少對策多少方案可是實際上他就是沒有解決問題啊所以是不是可以針對這個問題真的認真的去了解到底怎麼把人力補足否則為什麼就是沒有護理師然後護理師現在職業率非常低護理師職業率有時候都不到六成欸就是我們有那麼多護理師但他們不願意在醫院上班到底問題是發生在哪裡"},{"start":402.133,"end":422.575,"text":"所以這個部長你要去了解我想這個護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的意思我們一個一個會多努力來解決那至於急診的用賽這個部分可能跟醫療體系也有關係比如說你去問台大醫院的院長他絕對說他他並沒有關任何床他你看他的他等48小時就已經"},{"start":423.095,"end":425.756,"text":"現在不是在精神喊話我們一起來努力我們怎麼樣怎麼樣現在問題就在這邊"},{"start":442.122,"end":442.242,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":469.841,"end":489.507,"text":"報告委員,我們去年就今年第1屆第2屆其實平均等值在醫院或在那個大概都有到0.9,所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。 第二個就是其實在明年的健保這個部分,其實行政院也給我們最大的,有史以來最高的成長力,以及"},{"start":490.974,"end":511.543,"text":"所以到達5.5所以這個部分就已經到達9200億以上這是破有史以來最高的已經非常盡力所以可見1.0.9都不夠啦一定要到1.1元啦但是因為行政院不願意嘛所以主決議是0.95這不是願不願意我們既要維持點值"},{"start":512.903,"end":538.391,"text":"並行總額,那總額跟點子這樣算起來,如果1.1元的話,那總額制度就完全破壞掉了。 我不是認為說不應該,我們會願意朝1.1元去前進,去邁進,但是這個總額制度的保障,我們還要設計跟精細的設計。 院長因為這個點數的問題,其實上個會議大家都寫上過了,其實三長都簽字了,然後當時衛福部也有派代表,那現在又講另外一套,我尊重了好不好,那謝謝部長。"},{"start":540.168,"end":545.671,"text":"那下一個問題我想問一下因為今天環境部也在嘛問一個淨零的問題因為我今天"},{"start":546.874,"end":575.851,"text":"有媒體有報導就是外國媒體有專訪院長 院長有提到說為了滿足AI的產業的發展所以對採用新的能源技術非常開放然後第二點是說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障那院長覺得採用這個新能源所謂的新核能你是願意接受的嗎應該是這樣有沒有誤解你的意思"},{"start":576.391,"end":576.551,"text":"新核能技術"},{"start":591.687,"end":604.405,"text":"我早上舉個例子,燃油車跟電動車就完全不同的新技術,未來技術的進步,現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中,哪一個開發當中,它未來的商業模式。"},{"start":609.599,"end":628.902,"text":"新的就是相對於舊的,我當然知道啊,但是因為你說新的能源技術,因為你是院長嘛,所以你講的話一定就有前瞻性啊,你有研究過嘛,請問一下什麼是新核能技術?比方說2030年之後,可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的,那個所謂快中子。"},{"start":629.304,"end":653.073,"text":"有可能成功,可能成功我們現在還不知道,有可能成功,有可能成為一個商業模式,成本這整個過程我們都可以的話,我們當然願意去開放討論,甚至用一種新的方式來研究。那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別?我講沒錯,有講跟沒講,你明明就有講,你又說我沒講。第二個,你說只要台灣內部對於核能安全有共識,"},{"start":654.153,"end":658.944,"text":"還有處理核廢料我覺得你講這句話感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天你知道嗎"},{"start":659.751,"end":659.771,"text":"二、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":687.842,"end":691.204,"text":"你知道核廢料的處理,新北市政府也要協助嗎?"},{"start":691.204,"end":698.969,"text":"有啊,所以他現在乾式儲存槽已經蓋,已經放了嘛,但是院長你知不知道為什麼他當時乾式儲存槽不太願意放,你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":699.997,"end":722.472,"text":"大家對於核能的使用不知道為什麼不是是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式儲存槽裡面所以接下來我現在問你一個其他縣市也會怕啊所以我現在問你一個問題嘛因為當時台電包括經濟部有訂定一個核廢料的永久儲存的期程"},{"start":723.957,"end":744.314,"text":"這個表格也幫你找到了在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定就是說我們要找一個永久儲存場所以以新北市的立場來講只要你找到永久的儲存場不管是在哪裡你只要認真去找嘛就像我們現在經濟部長不在但是他很多想法嘛"},{"start":744.774,"end":745.254,"text":"臨時提案委員．葉元之"},{"start":759.784,"end":769.495,"text":"包括我上次在委員會的時候我問相關的部會啊。不是沒有社會共識,是因為他沒有在動作。社會共識不是因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖嘛,讓大家非常恐懼嘛。"},{"start":778.044,"end":792.157,"text":"如果你認為核廢料是安全可以處理的,你也要跟社會大眾講說,過去我們是過度的渲染,現在我們只要政府好好處理,這個問題是可以解決的,這也是你的責任之一。我們對核能要有專業的了解及知識。其實你今天針對媒體講了這一番話,"},{"start":794.659,"end":821.193,"text":"目前以我們的對話來講 報告委員 核能本身是沒有罪過的 但是我們不要把它認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹 新來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了 但是你在缺電的時候 核電就是一個非常穩定而且成本很低的供電方式啊 所以這才會 這個議題還會一直被討論嘛 後端的處理又是大家非常的閒閉 我只要提起院長啦 就是院長你有責任去處理核廢料 你也有責任處理核安"},{"start":821.633,"end":850.625,"text":"而不是說等到你們有共識之後我再來處理好像你是局外人一樣我覺得這個態度是不對的我們講出了這個話就是我們希望能夠取得共識那要積極一點好不好第三個因為院長你那時候在那個好像前兩天吧我不知道你是肚子餓了還是剛吃完飯你就在臉書發文就用那個點菜來比喻總預算那後面還有講到說如果這個餐廳他如果覺得我是一個奧客的話就把我趕出去就被人家解讀成"},{"start":851.425,"end":865.384,"text":"導閣"},{"start":865.994,"end":885.56,"text":"為了解決僵局對不對?僵局嘛!然後為什麼要倒閣?因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛!現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算,行政院認為不能依法編列預算,有幾個?沒有依照禁法補償條例嘛!沒有依照主決議嘛!你們就不想這樣做嘛!沒有依照預算法91條!"},{"start":890.822,"end":917.057,"text":"然後呢現在呢兩邊有爭議那我們讓民眾來決定所以解散國會大家重選選出來藍白的立委不只是6層8層然後院長結束了解決問題了嗎沒有因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長比如說提名陳時中當行政院長陳時中繼續不依法編列預算那我想請問一下倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局"},{"start":918.305,"end":920.667,"text":"我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情"},{"start":957.585,"end":958.166,"text":"謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時35分）院長好，麻煩請卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好。想要先跟院長報告一件事情，我不知道院長瞭不瞭解，現在很多病人在急診室接受治療之後，如果需要住院的話，在急診室的時間是愈來愈長了，你有注意到這個現象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：知道他們在等床、等病房的時間……"],["葉委員元之：真的愈來愈長了，常常有民眾跟我反映，有時候在醫院會等到一個禮拜以上。"],["卓院長榮泰：7天也許都會有。"],["葉委員元之：這真的是非常誇張，而且是愈來愈嚴重。我先show兩張圖，你看看現在急診的狀況，有的在急診沒有床位，急診的病患是就地治療；還有的是在輪椅上面電擊，急診室塞爆，直到沒有心跳才被發現。其實這不只對醫療品質有很大的傷害，我覺得也對病人非常不尊重，但是這個問題我們之前也反映給衛福部很多次，完全都沒有得到任何改善。","我先舉幾個數據給你看，第一個先講，我們國旅平均一個人出去玩大概就是1.45天，可是你知道，我們現在在急診留置48小時以上的比例非常高。特別是你看113年醫學中心，它在113年上半年就已經有1萬9,213位在急診室待48小時以上，我這個數字是只有48小時的，可能還有72小時的，甚至還有更高的，而且重點是，它的比例是逐漸上升。你看111年比例是7.3%，到了112年成了8.3%，113年上半年已經變成9%，所以數字看起來是非常沒有辦法控制。","有一些醫院特別是臺大醫院，臺大醫院超過48小時的案件比例已經到了20%，相當於五分之一，新北土城醫院也是20%，也是五分之一，這個狀況這麼嚴重，難道是因為病人變多、沒有病床嗎？並不是。實際上是有病床，但是沒辦法開。我們再來看一個數據，叫做「占床率」。占床率就是指，這個醫院當初許可這麼多床，但它實際上開的床是多少。可以看到有些比較低的，像是國泰只有56.42%，還有一些是百分之六十幾的，我沒有把它全部列出來，但是實際上的占床率大概要七成多才算正常，我不知道院長知不知這個狀況？就是它有床，但是沒有開，所以很多人就擠在急診室，沒有辦法上去病床，然後就會出現我們剛剛講的，急診室有非常多人的狀況，院長知道這個情況嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是人力不足造成的。"],["葉委員元之：確實是人力不足，我有看到。那人力不足怎麼辦？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：要補充人力，就是護理人員、護理師的人力要強力而快速地來補……"],["葉委員元之：沒有用！現在就是沒有解決啊！因為這件事已經發生好幾個月，然後狀況愈來愈嚴重，我在衛環委員會也質詢過啊！當時希望部長給我資料去瞭解一下這個情形，但部長後來也不給資料，每次跟你們要資料，回的公文都是那種非常空洞，不願意針對問題回答的，但是這個問題就是存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：護理人員的增加，剛剛部長已經在前幾位委員的垂詢當中答復過了，容許的話我就請部長再說明一次。"],["葉委員元之：可以。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，如果談護理人力的話，行政院可以說是用12個策略非常努力來留人才……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你那12個策略如果有用的話，這個情況不會越來越嚴重啦！"],["邱部長泰源：如果跟1月比較的話，我們在10月的時候其實已經增加了3,095位的護理師，在醫院增加了1,513，所以我們的努力還是有成果。"],["葉委員元之：這種數字沒有辦法解決這個問題，我覺得這個問題是存在的，你拿數字出來，但是這個問題還是存在，就沒有面對問題嘛！現在護理師確實也有很多所謂的抱怨，譬如他們覺得薪資不夠，還有比如說沒有因應護病比來調整床數的配置，這個是護理師所提出來的。我覺得這個最後可能也會歸因到一個問題，就是現在的健保點值就是比較低嘛！1點本來應該要1.1元，但是實際上現在可能是1點只有0.6元，所以可以看得出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會有0.6元啦！"],["葉委員元之：0.6、0.7都有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼會有0.6元？"],["邱部長泰源：應該沒有那麼低。"],["葉委員元之：有、有、有，也有0.7的啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有0.6、0.7的……"],["葉委員元之：就沒有到1.1元嘛！我只是要凸顯一件事情，因為現在大家在吵所謂總預算到底要不要遵守立法院的主決議，1點0.95元。很多人講：你們為什麼都在幫醫生講話，都在幫護士講話？確實，我們幫醫生講話，幫護士講話，因為他們非常辛苦，更重要的是我們在幫病人講話，整體來說，我們是要提升醫療品質，不是在幫哪一個族群講話，所以光是健保點值沒有編到1點0.95元，我覺得行政院真的有點對不起這麼多的民眾啦！部長一直講，你們推出了多少對策、多少方案，可是實際上它就是沒有解決問題啊！所以是不是可以針對這個問題，真的認真去瞭解到底怎麼把人力補足，否則為什麼就是沒有護理師，然後護理師現在執業率非常低，護理師的執業率有時候都不到六成耶！就是我們有那麼多護理師，但他們不願意在醫院上班，到底問題是發生在哪裡？部長，所以這個你要去瞭解……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想護理留任這個部分有很多複雜的因素，我們都會一個一個努力來解決，至於急診壅塞這個部分，可能跟醫療體系也有關係，譬如你去問臺大醫院的院長，他絕對說，他並沒有關任何床，但你看剛剛你提出的，他們等48小時的就已經有20%。所以這整個醫療體系的分流分級也是要我們大家一起來努力，我相信都可以解決急診壅塞的問題……"],["葉委員元之：部長，現在不是在精神喊話……"],["邱部長泰源：不會讓醫學中心的人力需要負擔那麼大……"],["葉委員元之：部長，現在不是在精神喊話，我們一起來努力，我們怎麼樣、怎麼樣。現在問題就在這邊，也許幾個月後，同樣一個問題還是繼續發生，然後你講一樣的話，但是問題沒有解決。我們現在只是希望我們可以把這個問題解決，就這樣而已，並沒有什麼責難的意思……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是我們發現好像衛福部在這個部分其實是非常的緩慢，如果沒有什麼好的對策的話，那你把健保點值按照立法院決議變成1點0.95元，搞不好這個問題也可以舒緩一些嘛！就看你願不願意做啦！部長，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們今年第一季、第二季其實平均點值在醫院或其他大概都有到0.9，所以這個部分可能要澄清一下。第二個就是在明年的健保這個部分，其實行政院也給我們有史以來最高的成長率，到達5.5%，所以這個部分就已經到達9,200億以上，這是有史以來最高的，我們已經非常盡力……"],["葉委員元之：所以可見1點0.9元都不夠，一定要到1點1元，但是因為行政院不願意，所以主決議是0.95元嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這不是願不願意，我們既要維持點值，又要併行總額，總額與點值這樣算起來，如果1點1元的話，總額制度就完全破壞掉了。我不是認為不應該，我們願意朝1點1元去前進、去邁進，但是這個總額制度的保障，我們還要更精細的設計……"],["葉委員元之：院長，這個點數的問題其實上個會期大家都協商過，三長都簽字了，當時衛福部也有派代表，現在又講另外一套，我尊重，好不好？謝謝部長。","下一個問題，因為今天環境部也在，我問一個淨零的問題，因為今天媒體有報導，就是外國媒體有專訪院長，院長提到，為了滿足AI產業的發展，對採用新的能源技術非常開放，第二點是只要臺灣內部對於核能安全有共識的話，以及處理核廢料的問題有好的方向及保障，院長覺得採用新能源──所謂的新核能，你是願意接受的嘛！應該是這樣，有沒有誤解你的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的核能技術跟傳統的……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下什麼叫新核能技術？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是說跟傳統、現在我們舊有的核能電廠的技術是截然不同的，我早上有舉個例子，燃油車跟電動車……"],["葉委員元之：比如說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上有舉個例子，燃油車跟電動車就是完全不同的新技術，未來技術的進步，現在世界各國都在極力的開發當中，哪一個開發當中，它未來的商業模式……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，院長，你這樣有講跟沒講一樣，新的就是相對於舊的，我當然知道，但是你說新的能源技術，因為你是院長，所以你講的話一定有前瞻性，你有研究過嘛！請問一下什麼是新核能技術？"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說，2030年之後，可能比爾蓋茲他手上正在研究的所謂快中子有可能成功，我們現在還不知道，有可能成功、有可能成為一個商業模式，成本及整個過程我們都可以的話，我們當然願意去開放討論，甚至用一種新的方式來研究。"],["葉委員元之：那你講這個有講跟沒講有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：我講……明明就有講，你又說我沒講！"],["葉委員元之：我不知道你說這個有什麼意義。第二個，你說，只要臺灣內部對於核能安全有共識，還有處理核廢料，我覺得你講這句話，感覺很像你在大樹底下跟人家聊天，或者是你是局外人……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我講過很多次了，這是一個先決的條件。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！院長，因為你是行政院長，按照憲法規定，您是最高行政首長，核廢料的問題是你要解決的問題，核能安全問題是你要解決的問題，你怎麼可能在接受媒體訪問的時候說，只要核能安全可以解決或核廢料可以解決，我就採用核能，好像事不關己！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你在新北市，你知道核廢料的處理新北市政府也要協助嗎？"],["葉委員元之：有啊，所以它現在乾式貯存槽已經放了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：但是院長你知不知道為什麼它當時乾式貯存槽不太願意放？你知道為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：大家對核能的使用……"],["葉委員元之：不是，是因為新北市非常害怕到時候台電把核廢料永久放在新北市的乾式貯存槽裡面。所以接下來我就要問你一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：新北市會怕，其他縣市也會怕啊！"],["葉委員元之：所以我現在問你一個問題，因為當時台電，包括經濟部，有訂定一個核廢料永久貯存的期程，這個表格也幫你找到了，在2018年到2028年我們要完成候選場址的評選跟核定，就是說我們要找一個永久貯存場，所以以新北市的立場來講，只要你找到永久的貯存場，不管是在哪裡，你只要認真去找，就像現在雖然經濟部長不在場，但是他有很多想法，電不夠，可以到菲律賓把電運回來，也許核廢料也可以用各種方式去處理。但現在的問題是，我們的方案訂在那邊，2018年到2028年要完成，但是現在沒有任何的進展，包括我上次在委員會的時候問相關的部會……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是我說的還沒有社會共識。"],["葉委員元之：不是沒有社會共識，是因為它沒有在動作。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有一天說選址在新北市，大家也不會同意啊！在任何地方都沒有人接受嘛！"],["葉委員元之：因為你們當時就把核廢料講得很恐怖，讓大家非常恐懼嘛！如果你認為核廢料是安全、可以處理的，你也要跟社會大眾講，過去我們是過度的渲染，現在只要政府好好處理，這個問題是可以解決的。這也是你的責任之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對核能要有專業的了解跟知識。"],["葉委員元之：你今天針對媒體講了這一番話，目前以我們的對話來講……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，核能本身是沒有罪過的，但是我們不要認為它是可以解決問題的萬靈丹。"],["葉委員元之：沒有萬靈丹啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的新核能也許就沒有現在的問題了。"],["葉委員元之：但是在缺電的時候，核電就是一個非常穩定，而且成本很低的供電方式，所以這個議題才會一直被討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：之後後端的處理又是大家非常嫌避的。"],["葉委員元之：我主要是提醒院長，院長，您有責任去處理核廢料，你也有責任處理核安，而不是說：等到你們有共識之後，我再來處理。好像你是局外人一樣，我覺得這個態度是不對的。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我講出了這個話，就是我們希望能夠取得共識。"],["葉委員元之：那要積極一點，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葉委員元之：第三個，院長你在前兩天，我不知道你是肚子餓了，還是剛吃完飯，你就在臉書發文，用點菜來比喻總預算，後面還有講到，如果這個餐廳覺得我是一個奧客的話，就把我趕出去。結果被人家解讀成倒閣，早上的時候也有委員問你倒閣，你好像是說倒閣是不得已的方法。我想要問一個問題，倒閣是內閣制國家的一個制度，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有不信任投票。"],["葉委員元之：那你知不知道倒閣是為了解決什麼問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：為了解決行政院跟立法院之間對於……"],["葉委員元之：僵局對不對？僵局嘛！然後為什麼要倒閣？因為要訴求最新的民意來決定到底誰是對的嘛！現在在野黨覺得要依法編列預算，行政院認為不能依法編列預算，有幾個……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有！行政院沒有說不能依法，行政院也絕對要依法編列預算。"],["葉委員元之：沒有依照禁伐補償條例、沒有依照主決議，你們就不想這樣做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有依照預算法第九十一條。"],["葉委員元之：然後現在兩邊有爭議，我們讓民眾來決定，所以解散國會，大家重選，選出來藍白的立委不只是六成，可能八成，然後院長結束了。但解決問題了嗎？沒有！因為總統賴清德繼續提另外一個人當行政院長，譬如說，提名陳時中當行政院長，陳時中繼續不依法編列預算，那我想請問一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院沒有不依法編列預算。"],["葉委員元之：倒閣這件事情解決了哪一個僵局？在日本，如果你倒閣，訴求最新民意、決定新的閣揆，所以他解決了僵局。但是我們這邊倒閣、解散國會，沒有解決啊！因為總統還是同一個人啊！所以總統到時候還是一樣不要禁伐補償條例……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：沒有6萬，就4萬喔！就一樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是捍衛憲法，我們的憲法就是如此規定，要反對憲法或是修憲，可以提……"],["葉委員元之：院長，動不動就倒閣這個事情我覺得很無聊，因為沒有解決任何事情啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望大家能夠各退一步來解決事情，所以如果能夠從這個例子開始，以後大家都依照憲法、預算法來處理，我們……"],["葉委員元之：我的意思是，不要動不動就倒閣，希望您可以做久一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起………"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來第13號何欣純委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員何欣純書面質詢："],["主席：再接下來請登記第14號徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":195,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","陳俊宇","黃捷","李坤城","邱志偉","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃珊珊","陳昭姿","林憶君","羅廷瑋","范雲","李彥秀","王世堅","盧縣一","邱若華","葉元之","何欣純","徐欣瑩","羅美玲","劉建國"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00004","1138101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138101_00009"}}}