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{\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 71.527, \"end\": 73.509, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 73.509, \"end\": 73.649, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 73.649, \"end\": 73.849, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 73.849, \"end\": 74.169, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 74.169, \"end\": 75.691, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 75.691, \"end\": 75.891, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 75.891, \"end\": 76.291, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 76.291, \"end\": 76.511, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 76.511, \"end\": 76.632, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 76.632, \"end\": 76.752, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 76.752, \"end\": 76.952, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 76.952, \"end\": 77.112, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 77.112, \"end\": 77.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.132, \"end\": 77.172, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 77.172, \"end\": 77.252, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"優\"}, {\"word\": \"惠\", \"start\": 77.252, \"end\": 77.412, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 77.412, \"end\": 77.592, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.592, \"end\": 77.733, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 77.733, \"end\": 77.753, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}]}, {\"start\": 81.736, \"end\": 97.623, \"text\": \"所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 81.736, \"end\": 81.876, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 81.876, \"end\": 82.636, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 82.636, \"end\": 82.897, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 82.897, \"end\": 83.077, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 83.077, \"end\": 83.457, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 83.457, \"end\": 83.737, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 83.737, \"end\": 84.717, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 84.717, \"end\": 84.817, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 84.817, \"end\": 84.977, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 84.977, \"end\": 85.338, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 85.338, \"end\": 85.498, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 85.498, \"end\": 85.778, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"實\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 92.16, \"end\": 92.341, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 92.341, \"end\": 92.601, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 92.601, \"end\": 92.941, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 92.941, \"end\": 93.121, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 93.121, \"end\": 93.301, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 93.301, \"end\": 93.961, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"韓\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 93.961, \"end\": 94.662, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"．\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 94.662, \"end\": 94.882, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 94.882, \"end\": 95.322, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 95.322, \"end\": 95.482, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 95.482, \"end\": 95.602, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 95.602, \"end\": 95.802, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 95.802, \"end\": 95.982, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 95.982, \"end\": 96.222, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 96.222, \"end\": 96.542, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 96.542, \"end\": 96.662, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 96.662, \"end\": 96.822, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 96.822, \"end\": 97.203, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.203, \"end\": 97.403, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 97.403, \"end\": 97.603, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 97.603, \"end\": 97.623, \"score\": 0.007}]}, {\"start\": 98.603, \"end\": 122.658, \"text\": \"給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 98.603, \"end\": 99.003, \"score\": 0.55}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 99.003, \"end\": 99.884, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 99.884, \"end\": 99.964, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 99.964, \"end\": 100.204, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 100.204, \"end\": 100.344, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 100.344, \"end\": 100.825, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 100.825, \"end\": 100.965, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 100.965, \"end\": 101.065, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 101.065, \"end\": 101.265, \"score\": 0.599}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 101.265, \"end\": 101.485, \"score\": 0.593}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 101.485, \"end\": 101.765, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 101.765, \"end\": 101.925, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": 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\"這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 127.18, \"end\": 127.48, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 127.48, \"end\": 127.64, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 127.64, \"end\": 127.88, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 127.88, \"end\": 128.041, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 128.041, \"end\": 128.781, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 128.781, \"end\": 129.041, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 129.041, \"end\": 129.241, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 129.241, \"end\": 129.401, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 129.401, \"end\": 129.561, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 129.561, \"end\": 129.721, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 129.721, \"end\": 130.301, 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\"邀\", \"start\": 540.126, \"end\": 540.246, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 540.246, \"end\": 540.346, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 540.346, \"end\": 540.486, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 540.486, \"end\": 540.687, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 540.687, \"end\": 540.807, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 540.807, \"end\": 540.827, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:18,171\n邱毅英委員。呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環境部司事長。\n\n2\n00:00:23,922 --> 00:00:37,838\n委員好次長好次長我想這個首次在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教那有幾個問題我想我就直接問因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格\n\n3\n00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:58,035\n市長您剛剛講到碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國\n\n4\n00:00:59,176 --> 00:01:17,753\n但環境部的說法是沒有但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100\n\n5\n00:01:21,736 --> 00:01:37,623\n所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的\n\n6\n00:01:38,603 --> 00:02:02,658\n給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個\n\n7\n00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:27,827\n這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定\n\n8\n00:02:36,209 --> 00:02:38,711\n另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢也會跟著調漲嗎\n\n9\n00:02:56,327 --> 00:03:13,134\n我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲對,它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付件量計劃所以你們現在調漲的\n\n10\n00:03:31,363 --> 00:03:56,146\n另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案來次次\n\n11\n00:03:56,526 --> 00:04:10,455\n有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣建業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應\n\n12\n00:04:20,882 --> 00:04:24,866\n那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點\n\n13\n00:04:42,005 --> 00:04:46,109\n第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易\n\n14\n00:05:00,845 --> 00:05:02,847\n他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期\n\n15\n00:05:16,016 --> 00:05:42,545\n市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的\n\n16\n00:05:45,766 --> 00:05:47,828\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n\n17\n00:06:05,342 --> 00:06:17,903\n其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?\n\n18\n00:06:18,856 --> 00:06:40,835\n我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是\n\n19\n00:06:47,165 --> 00:06:52,658\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府\n\n20\n00:06:58,059 --> 00:06:58,720\n接下來要談到這個就很敏感了\n\n21\n00:07:26,853 --> 00:07:52,549\n那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配這個來我先說一下好當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄\n\n22\n00:07:54,131 --> 00:07:58,939\n但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例\n\n23\n00:08:00,123 --> 00:08:24,425\n最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,\n\n24\n00:08:26,373 --> 00:08:42,490\n繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧\n\n25\n00:08:43,150 --> 00:08:50,557\n我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮\n\n26\n00:09:00,106 --> 00:09:00,827\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t18171\t邱毅英委員。呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環境部司事長。\n23922\t37838\t委員好次長好次長我想這個首次在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教那有幾個問題我想我就直接問因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格\n41680\t58035\t市長您剛剛講到碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國\n59176\t77753\t但環境部的說法是沒有但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100\n81736\t97623\t所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的\n98603\t122658\t給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個\n127180\t147827\t這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定\n156209\t158711\t另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢也會跟著調漲嗎\n176327\t193134\t我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲對,它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付件量計劃所以你們現在調漲的\n194394\t210026\t響鐘\n211363\t236146\t另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案 來 次次\n236526\t250455\t有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣建業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應\n260882\t264866\t那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點\n282005\t286109\t第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易\n300845\t302847\t他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期\n316016\t342545\t市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的\n345766\t347828\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n365342\t377903\t其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?\n378856\t400835\t我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是\n407165\t412658\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府\n418059\t418720\t接下來要談到這個就很敏感了\n446853\t472549\t那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配這個來我先說一下好當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄\n474131\t478939\t但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例\n480123\t504425\t最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,\n506373\t522490\t繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧\n523150\t530557\t我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮\n540106\t540827\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n","txt":"邱毅英委員。呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環境部司事長。\n委員好次長好次長我想這個首次在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教那有幾個問題我想我就直接問因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格\n市長您剛剛講到碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國\n但環境部的說法是沒有但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100\n所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的\n給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個\n這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定\n另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢也會跟著調漲嗎\n我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲對,它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付件量計劃所以你們現在調漲的\n響鐘\n另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案 來 次次\n有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣建業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應\n那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點\n第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易\n他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期\n市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?\n我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府\n接下來要談到這個就很敏感了\n那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配這個來我先說一下好當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄\n但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例\n最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,\n繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧\n我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:18.171\n邱毅英委員。呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環境部司事長。\n\n00:23.922 --> 00:37.838\n委員好次長好次長我想這個首次在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教那有幾個問題我想我就直接問因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格\n\n00:41.680 --> 00:58.035\n市長您剛剛講到碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國\n\n00:59.176 --> 01:17.753\n但環境部的說法是沒有但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100\n\n01:21.736 --> 01:37.623\n所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的\n\n01:38.603 --> 02:02.658\n給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個\n\n02:07.180 --> 02:27.827\n這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定\n\n02:36.209 --> 02:38.711\n另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢也會跟著調漲嗎\n\n02:56.327 --> 03:13.134\n我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲對,它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付件量計劃所以你們現在調漲的\n\n03:31.363 --> 03:56.146\n另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案來次次\n\n03:56.526 --> 04:10.455\n有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣建業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應\n\n04:20.882 --> 04:24.866\n那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點\n\n04:42.005 --> 04:46.109\n第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易\n\n05:00.845 --> 05:02.847\n他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期\n\n05:16.016 --> 05:42.545\n市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的\n\n05:45.766 --> 05:47.828\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n\n06:05.342 --> 06:17.903\n其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?\n\n06:18.856 --> 06:40.835\n我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是\n\n06:47.165 --> 06:52.658\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府\n\n06:58.059 --> 06:58.720\n接下來要談到這個就很敏感了\n\n07:26.853 --> 07:52.549\n那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配這個來我先說一下好當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄\n\n07:54.131 --> 07:58.939\n但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例\n\n08:00.123 --> 08:24.425\n最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,\n\n08:26.373 --> 08:42.490\n繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧\n\n08:43.150 --> 08:50.557\n我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮\n\n09:00.106 --> 09:00.827\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":18.171,"text":"邱毅英委員。呃,謝謝主席。我請一下環境部。請環境部司事長。"},{"start":23.922,"end":37.838,"text":"委員好次長好次長我想這個首次在這邊就這個碳費徵收的問題請教那有幾個問題我想我就直接問因為主席對時間控管非常的嚴格"},{"start":41.68,"end":58.035,"text":"市長您剛剛講到碳被徵收的問題這個表格是你們環境部做的嗎?是那現在其實公總有提出來說臺灣的收費標準其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國"},{"start":59.176,"end":77.753,"text":"但環境部的說法是沒有但是我看到這個表格我們實際的碳價水準日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每一公噸收64.7元韓國實際只有收5.7元那台灣呢你的一般費率是300還有優惠費率是50跟100"},{"start":81.736,"end":97.623,"text":"所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋．或者是說跟我們的產業界去解釋．台灣的這個碳價的收費標準．其實沒有比日本跟韓國多．因為就這個表格上看起來．我覺得它相對是多的"},{"start":98.603,"end":122.658,"text":"給委員報告兩點第一個就是說如果我們看下方的那一個格子我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的這個排放來做管制那因為日本他是針對能源燃料收所以他收的是像進口的煤啊、石油啊所以他收費的對象是能源燃料那我們是針對排放量收所以這是第一個制度不一樣第二個呢這個韓國是實施總量管制跟交易所以韓國的這個"},{"start":127.18,"end":147.827,"text":"這些被要求要加入的是有一個總量的限制那臺灣收碳費的時候是並沒有所以第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下所以你的意思就是說制度上不太相同我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較對比較可能沒有辦法完全反映但是你如果說按照這樣的一個收費標準有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細清楚的可比較的方式出來或許大家會比較有一個相同的比較基準這個可以去認定"},{"start":156.209,"end":158.711,"text":"另外第二個就是說我要再請教一個就是你們現在有談到2030年之後我們的一般費率會隨著調漲隨著世界的這個趨勢去調漲可能未來你們會調漲到1200到1800左右這是費率審議會的建議那你的優惠費率呢也會跟著調漲嗎"},{"start":176.327,"end":193.134,"text":"我們在審議會的過程當中委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲對,它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大鼓勵收費對象提支付件量計劃所以你們現在調漲的"},{"start":194.394,"end":210.026,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":211.363,"end":236.146,"text":"另外要跟您討論就是這個CBAM的部分剛剛您談到就是說CBAM這個現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施那台灣會不會有沒有做這樣的規劃因為剛剛就從您的報告裡頭其實聽不出來到底環境部對於台灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案 來 次次"},{"start":236.526,"end":250.455,"text":"有,我們其實去年6月已經有跨部會討論過如果要實施台版CBAM我們會有需要哪一些事前的準備工作每一個部會要做合作因為從歐盟的經驗來想我想我們國內有很多特別是扣建業者他在面臨歐盟CBAM的一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙那我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反應"},{"start":260.882,"end":264.866,"text":"那變成是說將來我們光在因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量是所以光申報這件事情我們在看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑是一個貿易障礙因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報的過程當中的困難所以這是第一點"},{"start":282.005,"end":286.109,"text":"第二點我想對於進口的應該是說對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業我們的做法是先讓他的徵收排放量如果他提自主減量計畫可以打兩折所以這個做法其實跟歐盟他從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易"},{"start":300.845,"end":302.847,"text":"他用這個製造業有免費配額有一個比例的這個狀況而沒有先走這個邊境調整措施的做法是相同的用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過度調整期"},{"start":316.016,"end":342.545,"text":"市長我要請教您您剛剛講的這一個部分有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界有做過這樣的座談或者是說跟工種其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情就是說我們現在開始收了這樣的一個碳費之後比如說像這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的這個碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭其實它在中國進口進來的"},{"start":345.766,"end":347.828,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"},{"start":365.342,"end":377.903,"text":"其實是會有巨大的影響的。所以您剛剛講到的這個CBAM的,台版的CBAM的這個規,如果說初期在構想的這個規劃的階段,我不曉得跟產業界的溝通如何?"},{"start":378.856,"end":400.835,"text":"我們跟這個水泥業跟石化業其實都有討論過那他們也有明確告訴我們說其實台版的CBAM對他們來說很重要那我們的規劃就是第一個在收費排放量上讓他有先打兩折減輕這個碳費給他一個過度的這個轉型第二個是我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論從產品申報開始讓這個進口的這個水泥業、石化或者是"},{"start":407.165,"end":412.658,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府協助規劃．及政府"},{"start":418.059,"end":418.72,"text":"接下來要談到這個就很敏感了"},{"start":446.853,"end":472.549,"text":"那你這個碳費收了之後你的比例要怎麼分配這個來我先說一下好當然這個我們台中市長盧秀燕盧市長說這個八成要留在地方啦那留在地方怎麼留其實高雄市市長也認為這個碳費的收取你應該是要按照一些比例去做分配你所有的碳排最多的應該是高雄"},{"start":474.131,"end":478.939,"text":"但是收費最多的也會是在高雄如果分配的比例"},{"start":480.123,"end":504.425,"text":"最多不是在高雄,那就很奇怪啦。第二個,你要怎麼樣去分配,要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢。這一筆錢呢,這個你們部長講的話講得很重啦,他說這個拿來做利益分贓或是政府的財務手段,我是不同意他的這幾個字啦,這個不叫利益分贓。但是你一旦收取了這個碳費,"},{"start":506.373,"end":522.49,"text":"繳交多的產業繳交多的縣市排碳量高的縣市或者是減碳量高的縣市你應該給予它更多的比例分配補助或者是講助我想這個原則你們應該是可以同意吧"},{"start":523.15,"end":530.557,"text":"我們其實是對於具體有減碳計畫的這個補助一定是會有這個不叫具體減碳計畫我告訴你寫計畫書大家都很會寫每個縣市都很會寫可是他的縣市他其實沒有沒有這麼多的排碳量他寫了一個洋洋沙灑的計畫書寫得很漂亮"},{"start":540.106,"end":540.827,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時25分）謝謝主席，我請一下環境部。"],["主席：請環境部施次長。"],["施次長文真：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長好。首次在這邊就碳費徵收的問題請教，有幾個問題我就直接問了，因為主席對時間控管非常地嚴格。次長，您剛剛講到碳費徵收的問題，這個表格是你們環境部做的嘛？"],["施次長文真：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：現在其實工總有提出來，臺灣的收費標準，其實整體來講是高過日本跟韓國，但環境部的說法是沒有，但是我看到這個表格，實際的碳價水準，像日本在未來實際的碳價水準是每1公噸收64.7元；韓國實際只有收5.7元；臺灣的一般費率是300元，還有優惠費率分別是50元跟100元，所以次長你怎麼樣去解釋或者是你怎麼跟我們的產業界去解釋，臺灣碳價的收費標準其實沒有比日本跟韓國多？因為就這個表格看起來，我覺得它相對是多的，請次長說明。"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告兩點，第一個，如果我們看下方的那一個格子，我們看的是只有純粹針對碳的排放來做管制，而日本是針對能源燃料收費，像進口的煤啊！石油啊！所以它收費的對象是能源燃料，而我們是針對排放量收費，所以第一個，制度不一樣；第二個，韓國是實施總量管制跟交易，所以韓國這些被要求要加入的，是有一個總量的限制；臺灣收碳費的時候並沒有如此，所以在第一個制度上並不太相同的狀況之下，我們看……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你的意思就是說，制度上不太相同，我們沒有辦法這樣子去做比較？是不是？"],["施次長文真：可能比較沒有辦法完全反映。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是如果按照這樣一個收費標準，有沒有可能我們再去做一個比較詳細的、清楚的、可比較的方式出來，或許大家比較會有一個相同的比較基準可以去認定。","第二個，我要再請教一個問題，就是你們現在有談到2030年之後，我們的一般費率會隨著世界的趨勢去調漲，可能未來你們會調漲到1,200到1,800左右，對不對？"],["施次長文真：這是費率審議會的建議。"],["邱委員議瑩：那你的優惠費率也會跟著調漲嗎？"],["施次長文真：我們在審議會的過程當中，委員也是建議優惠費率要調漲。"],["邱委員議瑩：優惠費率也是跟著一般費率的基準去調漲。"],["施次長文真：對，它的幅度不會像一般費率那麼高，因為我們還是希望一般費率跟優惠費率的差距拉大，鼓勵收費對象提自主減量計畫。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們現在調漲的百分比是多少還沒有制定出來？"],["施次長文真：還沒有，因為大概也不太好常常去動費率，因為讓收費對象有一個2030年長期的規劃會比較重要，所以我們可能兩年左右才會檢討一次。"],["邱委員議瑩：另外要跟您討論，就是CBAM的部分，剛剛您談到CBAM現在只有歐盟跟英國未來會實施，那臺灣會不會？有沒有做這樣的規劃？因為剛剛從您的報告裡頭，其實聽不出來到底環境部對於臺灣CBAM要不要實施這件事情的具體答案，請次長。"],["施次長文真：有，其實去年6月我們已經有跨部會討論過，如果要實施臺版CBAM，我們會需要哪一些事前的準備工作，讓每一個部會來做合作。因為從歐盟的經驗來想，我們國內有很多業者，特別是扣件業者，在面臨歐盟CBAM一些申報的規範上面有很大的障礙，我們也透過管道跟歐盟做了很多反映，因為要實施CBAM的一個前提是你要知道進口產品的碳含量。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["施次長文真：所以光申報這件事情，我們再看歐盟怎麼樣去調整到不會被人家貿易對手國質疑這是一個貿易障礙，因為我們自己也面臨很多扣件業在申報過程當中的困難，這是第一點。","第二點，對於國內有高碳洩漏風險的行業，我們的作法是先讓它徵收排放量的部分，如果它提自主減量計畫，就可以打兩折，這個作法其實跟歐盟從2005年開始有總量管制跟交易後，製造業有免費配額且有一個比例，而沒有先走邊境調整措施的作法是相同的。也就是用這個方式先來讓國內受衝擊的產業有一個過渡調整期。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，我要請教您，您剛剛講的這一個部分，有沒有跟國內的這一些產業界或是工總做過這樣的座談？其實石化業者也曾經來做過相關的陳情……"],["施次長文真：有。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們現在開始收了這樣一個碳費之後，比如說這一些石化業他們從中國進口進來的，碳洩漏的部分沒有在CBAM徵收的範圍裡頭，其實它從中國進口進來的成本，跟臺灣的相比較，其實那個價格落差就會相對地大，他們也會擔心有所謂的綠色通膨，或者是整體的成本不斷地上漲，對於我們自己的業者所能夠負荷的程度，其實是會有巨大的影響，所以您剛剛講到了臺版CBAM的規劃，如果是處於初期在構想、在規劃的階段，我不曉得跟產業界的溝通是如何？"],["施次長文真：我們跟水泥業、跟石化業其實都有討論過，他們也明確告訴我們，其實臺版的CBAM對他們來說很重要，我們的規劃是，第一個，在收費排放量上，讓它先打兩折、減輕碳費，給它一個過渡的轉型。第二個，我們也會跟財政部、經濟部一起去討論，從產品申報開始，讓進口的水泥、石化或者是鋼鐵，先從進口產品申報碳含量的這個動作開始，所以應該我們明年會希望先從產品碳含量的申報做為這個臺版CBAM的第一個步驟。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得這個可能要加強，比如說也要邀請經濟部產發署，讓經濟部這邊也能夠來協助，讓產業界跟環境部有多一點對話跟溝通，尤其像工總這些團體，對於這樣一個CBAM的推動，我覺得雙方的溝通、協調，甚至意見的蒐集都是非常的重要。"],["施次長文真：謝謝委員提醒，我們會。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來談的這個就很敏感了，碳費收了之後，你的比例要怎麼分配？我先說一下，當然我們臺中市盧秀燕盧市長說八成要留在地方，那要怎麼留在地方？其實高雄市市長也認為碳費的收取，應該要按照一些比例去做分配，所有碳排最多的應該是高雄，但是收費最多的也會是在高雄，如果分配的比例最多不是在高雄，那就很奇怪了。","第二個，你要怎麼樣去分配、要怎麼樣去使用這一筆錢？關於這筆錢，你們部長話講得很重，他說這個拿來做利益分贓，或是政府的財務手段。我是不同意他說的這幾個字，這個不叫利益分贓，但是你一旦收取了碳費，繳交多的產業，繳交多的縣市，排碳量高的縣市，或者是減碳量高的縣市，你應該給予它更多的比例分配、補助或者是獎助，我想這個原則你們應該可以同意吧？"],["施次長文真：對於具體有減碳計畫的補助，我們是一定會有的，因為……"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，這個不叫具體減碳計畫，我告訴你，寫計畫書大家都很會寫，每個縣市都很會寫，可是有的縣市其實沒有這麼多的排碳量，卻寫了一個洋洋灑灑的計畫書、寫得很漂亮，那你也去補助它，這也很奇怪啊！"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，如果用減碳量來分，其實有好多個縣市是完全分不到碳費的收入，所以在使用上……"],["邱委員議瑩：完全分不到是因為它也沒有什麼排碳量……"],["施次長文真：但它可能有很高的調適的需求。"],["邱委員議瑩：排碳量高的縣市反而分得少，這就很奇怪了，所以我覺得這個應該要好好再討論一下，而不是現在你們用這個方式就去公布啊！"],["施次長文真：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員，次長請回座。下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}}