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\"end\": 879.707, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 879.707, \"end\": 879.888, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 879.888, \"end\": 880.23, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 880.23, \"end\": 880.35, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 880.35, \"end\": 881.414, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 881.414, \"end\": 881.434, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,849 --> 00:00:26,622\n謝謝召委先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長在我開始今天詢問之前有幾個案子還是要提醒我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事\n\n2\n00:00:28,362 --> 00:00:54,481\n原來公告招標的是不是磁扣是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告變成不是磁扣防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的這我上次已經問過我不重複了請部長查明當時誰主導這個會議跟委員報告我們有經過去查證沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在邊審當中部長坦白講\n\n3\n00:00:58,496 --> 00:01:27,774\n我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官院不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情\n\n4\n00:01:29,517 --> 00:01:53,737\n有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多\n\n5\n00:01:56,953 --> 00:02:13,088\n這樣放水過關的東西到戰時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題嗎還是軍職\n\n6\n00:02:16,418 --> 00:02:33,892\n陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠\n\n7\n00:02:35,333 --> 00:02:57,129\n但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20\n\n8\n00:02:58,610 --> 00:03:12,665\n二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個鄭豐市人員部長我時間關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面?\n\n9\n00:03:19,361 --> 00:03:41,344\n就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級\n\n10\n00:03:42,925 --> 00:04:10,487\n我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍之內那我要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處\n\n11\n00:04:12,991 --> 00:04:27,461\n法務部聯政署已經進來,我想調查,我們會做這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行,我們不由國防部來做行政調查,就由法務部聯政署行政調查但是要處分喔\n\n12\n00:04:28,576 --> 00:04:51,669\n這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個\n\n13\n00:04:53,250 --> 00:05:03,873\n單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理回到我今天要問的題目事實上\n\n14\n00:05:17,576 --> 00:05:37,819\n這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有\n\n15\n00:05:38,925 --> 00:05:46,048\n在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都\n\n16\n00:05:53,041 --> 00:06:13,770\n應該是我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長\n\n17\n00:06:15,202 --> 00:06:40,704\n你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用\n\n18\n00:06:42,205 --> 00:07:01,954\n以中國來講他可能是用他的海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過\n\n19\n00:07:04,069 --> 00:07:25,348\n這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是CostGuard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理\n\n20\n00:07:26,055 --> 00:07:50,735\n沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心啦就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為他是\n\n21\n00:07:52,097 --> 00:08:08,075\n剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子\n\n22\n00:08:09,777 --> 00:08:31,688\n我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的CostGuard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡組也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生QuantumTeam的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機\n\n23\n00:08:32,808 --> 00:08:49,357\n我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案\n\n24\n00:08:50,197 --> 00:09:11,504\n那Blockade這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的\n\n25\n00:09:12,225 --> 00:09:30,001\n封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義嘛\n\n26\n00:09:34,725 --> 00:09:48,725\n因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講\n\n27\n00:09:49,827 --> 00:10:10,726\nquarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是\n\n28\n00:10:13,328 --> 00:10:40,110\n如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊、能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖\n\n29\n00:10:42,532 --> 00:10:54,300\n我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫\n\n30\n00:10:55,533 --> 00:11:23,214\n我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖\n\n31\n00:11:25,196 --> 00:11:30,521\n這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練\n\n32\n00:11:49,278 --> 00:12:17,610\n不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以\n\n33\n00:12:18,991 --> 00:12:40,124\n在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎\n\n34\n00:12:41,604 --> 00:13:05,898\n就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習\n\n35\n00:13:07,396 --> 00:13:34,170\n這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Reviseit修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失\n\n36\n00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:53,111\n軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道\n\n37\n00:13:54,312 --> 00:14:09,031\n我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平\n\n38\n00:14:10,092 --> 00:14:37,782\n這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的\n\n39\n00:14:38,704 --> 00:14:41,434\n其他相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n849\t26622\t謝謝召委 先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長在我開始今天詢問之前有幾個案子還是要提醒我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事\n28362\t54481\t原來公告招標的是不是磁扣是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告變成不是磁扣防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的這我上次已經問過我不重複了請部長查明當時誰主導這個會議跟委員報告我們有經過去查證沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在邊審當中部長坦白講\n58496\t87774\t我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官院不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情\n89517\t113737\t有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多\n116953\t133088\t這樣放水過關的東西到戰時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題嗎還是軍職\n136418\t153892\t陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠\n155333\t177129\t但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20\n178610\t192665\t二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個鄭豐市人員部長我時間關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面?\n199361\t221344\t就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級\n222925\t250487\t我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍之內那我要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處\n252991\t267461\t法務部聯政署已經進來,我想調查,我們會做這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行,我們不由國防部來做行政調查,就由法務部聯政署行政調查但是要處分喔\n268576\t291669\t這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個\n293250\t303873\t單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理回到我今天要問的題目事實上\n317576\t337819\t這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有\n338925\t346048\t在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都\n353041\t373770\t應該是我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長\n375202\t400704\t你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用\n402205\t421954\t以中國來講他可能是用他的海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過\n424069\t445348\t這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是Cost Guard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理\n446055\t470735\t沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心啦就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為他是\n472097\t488075\t剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子\n489777\t511688\t我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的Cost Guard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡組也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生Quantum Team的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機\n512808\t529357\t我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案\n530197\t551504\t那Blockade這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的\n552225\t570001\t封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義嘛\n574725\t588725\t因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講\n589827\t610726\tquarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是\n613328\t640110\t如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊、能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖\n642532\t654300\t我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫\n655533\t683214\t我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖\n685196\t690521\t這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練\n709278\t737610\t不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以\n738991\t760124\t在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎\n761604\t785898\t就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習\n787396\t814170\t這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Revise it修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失\n814970\t833111\t軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道\n834312\t849031\t我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平\n850092\t877782\t這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的\n878704\t881434\t其他相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通\n","txt":"謝謝召委 先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長在我開始今天詢問之前有幾個案子還是要提醒我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事\n原來公告招標的是不是磁扣是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告變成不是磁扣防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的這我上次已經問過我不重複了請部長查明當時誰主導這個會議跟委員報告我們有經過去查證沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在邊審當中部長坦白講\n我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官院不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情\n有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多\n這樣放水過關的東西到戰時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題嗎還是軍職\n陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠\n但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20\n二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個鄭豐市人員部長我時間關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面?\n就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級\n我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍之內那我要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處\n法務部聯政署已經進來,我想調查,我們會做這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行,我們不由國防部來做行政調查,就由法務部聯政署行政調查但是要處分喔\n這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個\n單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理回到我今天要問的題目事實上\n這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有\n在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都\n應該是我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長\n你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用\n以中國來講他可能是用他的海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過\n這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是Cost Guard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理\n沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心啦就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為他是\n剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子\n我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的Cost Guard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡組也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生Quantum Team的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機\n我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案\n那Blockade這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的\n封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義嘛\n因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講\nquarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是\n如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊、能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖\n我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫\n我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖\n這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練\n不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以\n在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎\n就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習\n這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Revise it修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失\n軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道\n我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平\n這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的\n其他相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.849 --> 00:26.622\n謝謝召委先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長在我開始今天詢問之前有幾個案子還是要提醒我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事\n\n00:28.362 --> 00:54.481\n原來公告招標的是不是磁扣是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告變成不是磁扣防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的這我上次已經問過我不重複了請部長查明當時誰主導這個會議跟委員報告我們有經過去查證沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在邊審當中部長坦白講\n\n00:58.496 --> 01:27.774\n我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官院不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情\n\n01:29.517 --> 01:53.737\n有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多\n\n01:56.953 --> 02:13.088\n這樣放水過關的東西到戰時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題嗎還是軍職\n\n02:16.418 --> 02:33.892\n陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠\n\n02:35.333 --> 02:57.129\n但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20\n\n02:58.610 --> 03:12.665\n二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個鄭豐市人員部長我時間關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面?\n\n03:19.361 --> 03:41.344\n就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級\n\n03:42.925 --> 04:10.487\n我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍之內那我要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處\n\n04:12.991 --> 04:27.461\n法務部聯政署已經進來,我想調查,我們會做這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行,我們不由國防部來做行政調查,就由法務部聯政署行政調查但是要處分喔\n\n04:28.576 --> 04:51.669\n這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個\n\n04:53.250 --> 05:03.873\n單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理回到我今天要問的題目事實上\n\n05:17.576 --> 05:37.819\n這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有\n\n05:38.925 --> 05:46.048\n在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都\n\n05:53.041 --> 06:13.770\n應該是我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長\n\n06:15.202 --> 06:40.704\n你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用\n\n06:42.205 --> 07:01.954\n以中國來講他可能是用他的海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過\n\n07:04.069 --> 07:25.348\n這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是CostGuard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理\n\n07:26.055 --> 07:50.735\n沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心啦就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為他是\n\n07:52.097 --> 08:08.075\n剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子\n\n08:09.777 --> 08:31.688\n我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的CostGuard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡組也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生QuantumTeam的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機\n\n08:32.808 --> 08:49.357\n我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案\n\n08:50.197 --> 09:11.504\n那Blockade這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的\n\n09:12.225 --> 09:30.001\n封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義嘛\n\n09:34.725 --> 09:48.725\n因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講\n\n09:49.827 --> 10:10.726\nquarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是\n\n10:13.328 --> 10:40.110\n如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊、能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖\n\n10:42.532 --> 10:54.300\n我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫\n\n10:55.533 --> 11:23.214\n我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖\n\n11:25.196 --> 11:30.521\n這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練\n\n11:49.278 --> 12:17.610\n不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以\n\n12:18.991 --> 12:40.124\n在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎\n\n12:41.604 --> 13:05.898\n就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習\n\n13:07.396 --> 13:34.170\n這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Reviseit修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失\n\n13:34.970 --> 13:53.111\n軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道\n\n13:54.312 --> 14:09.031\n我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平\n\n14:10.092 --> 14:37.782\n這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的\n\n14:38.704 --> 14:41.434\n其他相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.849,"end":26.622,"text":"謝謝召委 先麻煩顧部長請顧部長部長在我開始今天詢問之前有幾個案子還是要提醒我上一次質詢提到抗彈板還有背心磁扣的問題當然我有收到國防部來報告報告寫得也不錯但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事"},{"start":28.362,"end":54.481,"text":"原來公告招標的是不是磁扣是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告變成不是磁扣防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的這我上次已經問過我不重複了請部長查明當時誰主導這個會議跟委員報告我們有經過去查證沒有當時這個會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣那現在還在邊審當中部長坦白講"},{"start":58.496,"end":87.774,"text":"我本來要私下給你提這個事情來報告我也看到了寫的都不會發生、沒有發生、不會發生因為我看了那個會議記錄是沒有你可以問一下我也不曉得軍備局的中階的軍官院不願意說我是擔心這裡面會有事情這第一個提醒那我進一步提醒另外一件事情我們無人機反制系統從上一屆的部長到這一屆一波三折預算大概9億我只提醒一件事情"},{"start":89.517,"end":113.737,"text":"有廠商不改進自己產品的性能反而透過關係要逼迫我們要驗測的單位降規比方說有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來因為從哪個方位過來你先知道跟不知道這個驗測就差很多"},{"start":116.953,"end":133.088,"text":"這樣放水過關的東西到戰時的時候能不能用請部長查明我其他部分我私底下會跟部長來提供第三個我們這一次機密資料外洩有關是政風人員的問題嗎還是軍職"},{"start":136.418,"end":153.892,"text":"陣風是在發出這個我說明一下就是說陣風是搭載是巡內部軍網的系統這個陣風人員不是軍職人員嘛我們陣風一條邊嘛所以他是陣風是一條邊派來的他對於我們軍事單位的機敏性我不知道訓練夠不夠"},{"start":155.333,"end":177.129,"text":"但是透過內網把不該丟出去丟出去我先確認損害的範圍他還是在內網的範圍丟給不該看的人就是說他的疏失應該是說還是在一個內部軍網的系統裡面電子發文的方式沒有跑到外面去這是第一點第二點就是他發給大概20"},{"start":178.61,"end":192.665,"text":"二十八個單位,這個二十八個單位的時候他應該要將這些具居民人員的名冊要做區隔跟個別處理,結果沒有做,這一點我們承認我們有疏失,這個鄭豐市人員部長我時間關係喔,這裡面我們軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面?"},{"start":199.361,"end":221.344,"text":"就是說具有機密性的這些人確實是有在裡面我聽到報告是說在外面實地的情報人員是沒有在這裡面沒有沒有任何第一線的第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面嗎因為要做財產申報的人都已經是在公開了啦公開了他的階級"},{"start":222.925,"end":250.487,"text":"我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面沒有,他們不再需要做財產申報的範圍之內那我要跟委員說明一下因為在第一時間查譽之後就這個公文的部分就立即刪除把它退文然後刪除那我們現在就是說在第一時間做這樣的一個風險控管之後我想因為它還是在內部的單位這個會不會有沒有懲處"},{"start":252.991,"end":267.461,"text":"法務部聯政署已經進來,我想調查,我們會做這個政風人員的懲處權是在法務部還是在國防部法務部聯政署會來進行,我們不由國防部來做行政調查,就由法務部聯政署行政調查但是要處分喔"},{"start":268.576,"end":291.669,"text":"這個事情不能說我破嘴破嘴再收回來就算了這個不行我回到我們今天的題目所以我要澄清一下因為外界一直在講說是電子郵件或者有財產申報資料這都沒有沒有這些東西不是以電子郵件是以內部的電子公文而且在軍方裡面第二個沒有其他財產申報的資料它大概就是那個"},{"start":293.25,"end":303.873,"text":"單位職稱跟姓名就是一個名單這個名單第一線負責情報工作人員沒有在裡面財產細節也沒有在裡面這個發出去是不應該發的非軍職是政風人員處理的政風人員要不要處分請法務部自己好好審酌辦理回到我今天要問的題目事實上"},{"start":317.576,"end":337.819,"text":"這一兩年來美國的不管是決策圈的人或智庫或者是媒體都關注兩個新的威脅樣態一個是quarantine一個是blockade這兩個我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候大概就有聽到這個部分那部長有沒有"},{"start":338.925,"end":346.048,"text":"在部長之前的秘書長跟擔任部長之後對我們的重要的盟友或者是相關智庫有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題我想都"},{"start":353.041,"end":373.77,"text":"應該是我們在進行交流的時候跟國家進行交流都有在討論這些相關的議題這不只是像CSIS或者是這個美國的媒體啦或者其他的我看到相關單位的人也在關注說這個情形發生了我們的因應之道所以我提問很簡單第一個就部長"},{"start":375.202,"end":400.704,"text":"你們定義在中共對台灣進行的quarantine什麼樣態屬於這個行為quarantine在國際法上它並沒有具體的規範但是它是一個可能它可以在特定的海空域它針對某些貨品來進行攔檢攔檢嘛這個不是防疫的那個那它可能是用"},{"start":402.205,"end":421.954,"text":"以中國來講他可能是用他的海警船以執法的名義來進行所謂的登船檢查搜索扣押等等這些這個是quarantine就是他用他們的所謂的警察兵力他以他的執法的名義執法的名義進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻是這個有沒有發生過"},{"start":424.069,"end":445.348,"text":"這個在之前金門水域的時候發生過一次還是兩次我印象是一次成功一次追著跑應該是兩次我們有沒有因應之道還是我們把它定義你就是Cost Guard你就是水警所以我們國防部不介入讓海巡署去處理"},{"start":446.055,"end":470.735,"text":"沒有我們要跟海巡署會相互來當然以海巡為主啦我們對這個quarantine因為不只國際要關注我們自己要關心啦就是發生這樣的樣態行為我國的船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾假借執法之名我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫我想我們就是以這個因為他是"},{"start":472.097,"end":488.075,"text":"剛剛因為我已經解釋了封鎖的一個太陽是屬於一種戰爭行為那它這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為所以我們原則上是由執法的部門來主導那海軍呢依照這個海上任務的綜合資源協定書我們跟海巡一起共同來協處這樣子"},{"start":489.777,"end":511.688,"text":"我們現在海巡沒有空中兵力像美國的Cost Guard它是有空中兵力速度比較快我為什麼強調這一塊因為我們海巡我們現在海巡組也有人來就是說海巡你先不用上來因為你沒辦法回答我的問題就是海巡如果靠船艦發生Quantum Team的行為的時候我們軍方也許有載空機"},{"start":512.808,"end":529.357,"text":"我們也許有定義機但是海巡沒有所以等到海上馳援到目標點的時候在金門水域發生過你就來不及了他把他帶回去了所以這個部分的因應計畫我們希望也許可以列為機密我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案"},{"start":530.197,"end":551.504,"text":"那Blockade這個封鎖你剛才已經定義了所以我們現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖就一定的海空域進行的封鎖行為不認為它是灰色地帶了它是這個準戰爭行為了因為我是按照國際法上面定義因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離或者是所謂的"},{"start":552.225,"end":570.001,"text":"封控的一個操演這個其實大家都不是很清楚所以我只是要去說明國際法上的封鎖是對所有的國家的基建要進出我們管轄的港口跟機場或海岸線的這種一種交戰行動這個是很嚴重這個是國際法規定的定義嘛"},{"start":574.725,"end":588.725,"text":"因為它對全世界會造成所以我認為任何一個處在這一個不管是印太區或全球都不可能坐視不管這樣的一個行為所以部長我現在把它釐清一下對我們國家來講"},{"start":589.827,"end":610.726,"text":"quarantine也就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為我們認為它是一個灰色地帶騷擾由海巡主導軍方備援那實質的計畫我們可以另外再談但封鎖就列為戰爭行為了對我這樣詮釋沒錯嗎是"},{"start":613.328,"end":640.11,"text":"如果真正的屬於所謂的封鎖就是所有的國家基建都不可以自由進出的時候這就屬於一種封鎖我先看到準備的內容啦不管農業部啊什麼大概都在提高儲備能量啊、能源啊、糧食啦、彈藥啦、醫藥啦這些我們提高儲備能量來做因應這個當然是有必要在安全儲備能量那我們的國家韌性除了這以外我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫比如說封鎖"},{"start":642.532,"end":654.3,"text":"我們當然要反封鎖我看漢光40號裡面花蓮港有一個境外交接的一個運輸計畫我們對於所謂的封鎖目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫"},{"start":655.533,"end":683.214,"text":"我想我剛剛已經有提到了如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖就是我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段了所以我們整個當然有對於它這個反封鎖要有一個具體的規範而且我們島內對於反所以相關的這些這個人員部隊然後武器相關的一個配置部署等等都會有一個因應的計畫來做這個反封鎖"},{"start":685.196,"end":690.521,"text":"這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效我現在比較遺憾的就是像我們消防演練"},{"start":709.278,"end":737.61,"text":"不是因為失火了我消防演練是因為我要預防我要因應我要讓他不失火我要減少他的傷害所以我才需要演練嘛部隊為什麼要演習不是因為明天要打仗是因為我產生嚇阻力量希望我有所準備讓敵人不敢來那現在呢我們所有的準備任性的準備民防的準備國家因應的準備就會變成說要打仗了這個不可以那個不可以"},{"start":738.991,"end":760.124,"text":"在以前的價值觀是國家有難匹夫有責以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備喔你準備明天要打仗是不是你不能準備喔你不能把這些人說問他有沒有意願保護自己的國家你一問你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎"},{"start":761.604,"end":785.898,"text":"就中共那邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰我們這邊保護自己的家園,我們又沒有打人家我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人我們民防的準備,我們任性的準備我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備我們軍方的準備,從漢光、聯勇所有的演習"},{"start":787.396,"end":814.17,"text":"這準備不是為了窮兵黷武是為了保護自己而已啊所以我今天要問的最後一個問題部長也不用回答我認為我們今天提到不管是Blockade或者是Quarantine或者是其他的因應要有計劃計劃要透過演練演習來確認計劃是否有效然後Revise it修訂它再演練再修訂它當充分的準備因為威脅一直都在威脅沒有消失"},{"start":814.97,"end":833.111,"text":"軍人就會在威脅沒有消失我們保護自己的意志就要在啊所以這要不斷的演習不斷的演練不斷的演練然後透過有所準備讓威脅知道你有所準備它的成本很大把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住這才是和平之道"},{"start":834.312,"end":849.031,"text":"我看到最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情好像保家衛國是一個好像是挑釁人家的事情不對侵略者呼籲和平對保護自己的人呼籲和平"},{"start":850.092,"end":877.782,"text":"這不是勸諾這是勸降啊所以部長我幫你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵可能行動都要做一些包括從低強度一直到高強度的所有的一個想定然後對這些想定要擬定這個計畫來因應那有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作然後有些部分我們當然也要強化我們的整體的社會防衛韌性我想這個都是有必要的"},{"start":878.704,"end":881.434,"text":"其他相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":451,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時41分）謝謝召委，先麻煩顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長，在我開始今天的詢問之前，有幾個案子還是要提醒，我上一次質詢提到抗彈板，還有背心磁扣的問題，當然我有收到國防部的報告，報告寫得也不錯，但這件事情我只提醒部長一件事，原來公告招標的是不是磁扣？是不是在我質詢之後把它拉下來重新公告，變成不是磁扣？防彈背心不可以有那個磁扣的，這個我上次已經問過，我不重複了，請部長查明當時是誰主導這個會議？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們有經過查證，當時會議裡面沒有要求要有磁扣，現在還在編審當中。"],["王委員定宇：部長，坦白講我本來要私下跟你提這個事情，送來的報告我也看到了，寫的都是「不會發生」、「沒有發生」。"],["顧部長立雄：因為我看那個會議紀錄是沒有這樣。"],["王委員定宇：你可以問一下，我也不曉得軍備局的中階軍官願不願意說，我擔心這裡面會有事情，這是第一個提醒。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我進一步提醒另外一件事情，關於無人機反制系統，從上一屆部長到這一屆，一波三折，預算大概9億。我只提醒一件事情，有廠商不改進自己產品的性能，反而透過關係逼迫要驗測的單位降規，比方說，有沒有涉嫌先告知他要模擬入侵的無人機從哪個方位過來？因為從哪個方位過來，你先知道跟不知道，這個驗測就差很多，這樣放水過關的東西到戰時能不能用，請部長查明，其他部分，我私底下會跟部長提供。","第三個，這一次機密資料外洩，是政風人員的問題，還是軍職？"],["顧部長立雄：我說明一下，就是政風室循內部軍網系統，以電子……"],["王委員定宇：這個政風人員不是軍職人員嘛！我們是政風一條鞭嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：欸，不是軍職。"],["王委員定宇：所以是政風一條鞭派來的……"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我不知道他對於軍事單位的機敏性訓練夠不夠，但透過內網把不該丟出去的丟出去，我先確認損害的範圍……"],["顧部長立雄：它還是在內網範圍……"],["王委員定宇：它還在內網？"],["顧部長立雄：還在內網……"],["王委員定宇：但他丟給不該看的人啦！"],["顧部長立雄：他的疏失應該是說，還是在一個內網、內部軍網的系統裡面，以電子發文方式……"],["王委員定宇：當然，它沒有跑到外面去。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有跑到外面去，這是第一點；第二點，他大概發給28個單位，而這28個單位，他應該要先將這些具機敏的名冊做區隔和個別處理……"],["王委員定宇：結果沒有嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：結果沒有做，這一點我們承認有疏失，這個政風室人員……"],["王委員定宇：部長，我時間關係，軍情情報人員名單有沒有在裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：具有機敏性的這些人確實是有在裡面，那有……"],["王委員定宇：我聽到報告是，外面實地的情報人員沒有在這裡面。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，沒有。"],["王委員定宇：這個要確認範圍。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有任何第一線的……"],["王委員定宇：第一線情報工作者的名單沒有在裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：因為要做財產申報的人都已經是公開……"],["王委員定宇：公開了啦！"],["顧部長立雄：他的階級事實上……"],["王委員定宇：我們實地作業的情報人員名單確實沒有在裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，他們不在需要做財產申報的範圍之內。我也要跟委員說明一下，第一時間察覺之後，這個公文就立即刪除，等於是退文，然後刪除，我們現在就是在第一時間做這樣的風險控管，因為它還是在內部單位……"],["王委員定宇：這個會不會懲處？有沒有懲處？"],["顧部長立雄：法務部廉政署已經進來調查，我們會有一個由法務部……"],["王委員定宇：這個政風人員的懲處權在法務部，還是在國防部？"],["顧部長立雄：法務部廉政署會來進行行政調查，而不是由國防部進行。"],["王委員定宇：他行政調查，但是要處分喔！這個事情不能說水潑出去又收回來就算了，這個不行。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：回到我們今天的題目……"],["顧部長立雄：我要再澄清一下，外界一直說是電子郵件或有財產申報資料，這都沒有啦！"],["王委員定宇：沒有這些東西啦！"],["顧部長立雄：不是電子郵件，而是內部的電子公文，而且是在軍網裡面。第二點，沒有其他那些財產申報的資料，大概就是單位、職稱跟姓名。"],["王委員定宇：它就是一個名單，第一線負責情報的工作人員沒有在裡面，財產細節也沒有在裡面，那這個發出去是不應該發的。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有在裡面，在第一時間察覺之後就……"],["王委員定宇：非軍職人員，是政風人員處理的，所以政風人員要不要處分，請法務部自己好好審酌辦理。","回到我今天要問的題目，事實上，這一、兩年來，美國不管是決策圈的人、智庫或者是媒體，都關注兩個新的威脅樣態，一個是quarantine，一個是blockade，我相信部長在擔任國安會秘書長的時候，大概就有聽到這個部分。請問部長，你在擔任部長之前的秘書長期間和擔任部長之後，對於我們重要盟友或者相關智庫，有沒有討論到這兩個樣態的問題？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是我們在進行交流的時候，跟友盟國家進行交流的時候，都有討論這些相關的議題。"],["王委員定宇：這個不只是像CSIS、美國媒體，或者其他等等，我看相關單位的人也都有關注到這個情形發生時我們的因應之道，我的提問很簡單，第一，就部長的定義，在中共對臺灣進行的quarantine中，什麼樣態屬於這個行為？"],["顧部長立雄：quarantine在國際法上並沒有具體的規範，它是一個可能可以在特定海空域，針對某些貨品進行攔檢……"],["王委員定宇：攔檢嘛！這個不是防疫的那個……"],["顧部長立雄：就以中國來講，他可能是用他的海警船，以執法名義進行所謂的登船檢查、搜索、扣押等等行為。"],["王委員定宇：這是quarantine，就是他用他們所謂的警察兵力。"],["顧部長立雄：他以他執法的名義……"],["王委員定宇：執法的名義，進行攔檢我們的貨輪各方面的船隻，這個有沒有發生過？"],["顧部長立雄：這個在之前……"],["王委員定宇：金門水域有吧？"],["顧部長立雄：金門水域發生過……"],["王委員定宇：發生過一次還兩次的樣子。"],["顧部長立雄：印象發生過一次。"],["王委員定宇：我印象是一次成功，一次追著跑。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：應該是兩次喔！我們有沒有因應之道？還是我們把它定義是Coast Guard，就是水警，所以國防部不介入，讓海巡署去處理？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我們跟海巡署會相互來……"],["王委員定宇：我們……"],["顧部長立雄：當然以海巡為主，以我們的海……"],["王委員定宇：我們有沒有因應？我們對這個quarantine，因為不只國際關注，我們自己也要關心，發生這樣的樣態行為，我國船隻或者要入港的船隻遭受這樣的騷擾，假借執法之名，我們國防部目前有沒有因應計畫？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們就是以這個……因為剛剛我已經解釋封鎖的一個態樣是屬於一種戰爭行為，他這個是低於戰爭的一種門檻行為，所以原則上是由我們執法的部門來主導，那海軍依照海上任務綜合支援協定書，我們跟海巡會一起共同來協助。"],["王委員定宇：現在海巡沒有空中兵力，像美國的Coast Guard是有空中兵力，速度比較快，我為什麼強調這一塊？今天海巡署也有人來，但先不用上台，因為你沒辦法回答我的問題。海巡如果只靠船艦，發生quarantine行為的時候，我們軍方也許有載空機，也許有定翼機，但是海巡沒有，等他們海上馳援到目標點的時候，就來不及了，這在金門水域發生過，他們已經把船帶回去了，所以這個部分的因應計畫，也許可以列為機密，但我們在國防委員會想要了解到底有沒有備案？至於blockade、封鎖，你剛才已經定義了，現在我們國家的國防部定義封鎖，就一定的海、空域進行的封鎖行為，不認為它是灰色地帶，而是個準戰爭行為。"],["顧部長立雄：我是按照國際法上的定義，因為大家一直對封鎖或者剛剛委員指教的隔離，或者所謂的封控的操演，其實都不是很清楚，所以會有點……我只是要說明國際法上的封鎖，是對所有國家的機艦進出我們所管轄的港口、機場或海岸線的這種交戰行動，這個是很嚴重的，因為它……"],["王委員定宇：這個是國際法規定的定義嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為它對全世界會造成……所以我認為任何一個處在不管是印太區或全球，都不可能坐視不管這樣的行為。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我現在把它釐清一下，對我們國家來講，quarantine就是運用海巡或者警力、水上警力，對於我們的船隻、船艦進行攔檢、攔查這種騷擾行為，我們認為它是一個灰色地帶的騷擾，由海巡主導軍方備援，實質的計畫我們可以另外再談，但封鎖就列為戰爭行為，我這樣詮釋沒錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是，如果真正屬於所謂的封鎖，就所有國家的機艦都不可以自由進出的時候，這就屬於一種封鎖。"],["王委員定宇：針對封鎖部分，我看今天準備的內容，不管農業部或什麼的，大概都是在提高儲備能量，包括能源、糧食、彈藥、醫藥，我們提高這些的儲備能量來因應，這當然是有必要，就是安全儲量、我們國家韌性，但除了這些以外，我們有沒有比較積極的因應計畫？比如封鎖，我們當然要反封鎖，我看漢光四十號演習裡，花蓮港有一個境外交接的運輸計畫，對於所謂的封鎖，目前軍方有沒有因應的計畫？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛已經提過了，如果真正進入國際法上定義的封鎖，就我們國軍已經整個進入應急作戰的階段，所以我們當然有整個針對他的反封鎖的具體規範，而且我們島內對於所有相關的人員、部隊、武器等等，也都有相關的配置、部署，這都會有一個因應的計畫來做所謂的反封鎖，相關的這些部分，我覺得可能不宜……"],["王委員定宇：我知道，有的我們適合私底下了解或是機密會議，我現在講的是，不管是quarantine或是blockade，這些都要經過演習去演練我們準備的方式是否有效，我現在比較遺憾的是，像我們消防演練，不是因為失火了才消防演練，而是因為我要預防、我要因應、我要讓它不失火、我要減少它的傷害，所以我才需要演練嘛！部隊為什麼要演習？不是因為明天要打仗，而是因為我產生嚇阻力量、希望我有所準備，讓敵人不敢來。現在我們所有的準備、韌性的準備、民防的準備、國家因應的準備，就會變成說要打仗了，這個不可以、那個不可以，在以前的價值觀是國家有難、匹夫有責，以前讀的教科書還會告訴你十萬青年十萬軍，現在國內卻有一群人拼命告訴你不可以準備，你準備明天要打仗了是不是？你不能準備，你不能問這些人說他有沒有意願保護自己的國家，你一問就說你是要把年輕人推到戰場上嗎？中共那一邊是拼命的軍演、拼命的動員、拼命的認知戰，我們這邊只是要保護自己的家園，我們又沒有打人家，我們只是要保護自己的家園、自己的親人，我們民防的準備，我們韌性的準備，我們儲備能量、能源、糧食、藥品的準備，我們軍方的準備，從漢光、聯勇所有的演習，這些準備不是為了窮兵黷武，只是為了保護自己而已。","我今天要問國防部的最後一個問題，部長你不用回答，我認為我們今天提到不管是blockade、quarantine或者是其它的因應，都要有計畫，計畫要透過演練、演習來確認計畫是否有效，然後revise it（修訂它），再演練、再修訂它，當充分的準備，因為威脅一直都在，威脅沒有消失，軍人就會在，威脅沒有消失，我們保護自己的意志就要在啊！所以這要不斷的演習、不斷的演練，然後透過有所準備，讓威脅知道你有所準備，它的成本很大，把這樣子的威脅嚇阻住，這才是和平之道。我看了最近的發展變成是要把手腳綁起來，好像保護自己家園是一種恥辱的事情，好像保家衛國是挑釁人家的事情，不對侵略者呼籲和平，卻對保護自己人呼籲和平，這不是怯懦，這是勸降啊！部長，我不知道你對最近這些事情有沒有什麼感想？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能說我們國軍應該要對所有敵人可能的行動都要做一些準備，包括從低強度一直到高強度所有的想定，然後對這些想定要擬定計畫來因應，有些部分我們要跟海巡一起合作，有些部分我們當然也要強化我們整體社會的防衛韌性，我想這個都是有必要的。"],["王委員定宇：其它相關資訊我私下再跟您溝通，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，部長請回。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}