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\"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 1049.867, \"end\": 1050.447, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1050.447, \"end\": 1050.567, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 1050.567, \"end\": 1050.728, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1050.728, \"end\": 1051.048, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1051.048, \"end\": 1051.168, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1051.168, \"end\": 1051.188, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1051.888, \"end\": 1059.093, \"text\": \"對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1051.888, \"end\": 1052.709, \"score\": 0.563}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1052.709, \"end\": 1052.849, \"score\": 0.719}, 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1163.954, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"隨\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 1163.954, \"end\": 1164.115, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 1164.115, \"end\": 1164.275, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 1164.275, \"end\": 1164.295, \"score\": 0.138}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,492 --> 00:00:01,357\n謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,657 --> 00:00:39,428\n部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡\n\n3\n00:00:42,059 --> 00:00:52,204\n我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所液管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫\n\n4\n00:01:00,729 --> 00:01:24,288\n因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊\n\n5\n00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:28,371\n這都是以前沒有做的\n\n6\n00:01:57,250 --> 00:02:13,065\n因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分\n\n7\n00:02:14,409 --> 00:02:28,734\n這一個在全動法我知道它本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的\n\n8\n00:02:30,510 --> 00:02:36,514\n教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有\n\n9\n00:02:57,445 --> 00:03:22,662\n包括你的彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為\n\n10\n00:03:23,943 --> 00:03:30,808\n那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道\n\n11\n00:03:51,784 --> 00:04:13,405\n那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?\n\n12\n00:04:14,938 --> 00:04:37,408\n向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講了各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化\n\n13\n00:04:38,868 --> 00:04:45,693\n所以動員準備好任性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有任性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛任性委員會因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡\n\n14\n00:05:07,169 --> 00:05:10,691\n群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院\n\n15\n00:05:26,877 --> 00:05:30,698\n這樣可能是錯的喔因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合\n\n16\n00:05:46,804 --> 00:05:50,906\n跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會他們是\n\n17\n00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:18,497\n前董事在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計跨部會設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作根據這個政策層級以後他還要每個月\n\n18\n00:06:19,157 --> 00:06:24,959\n全棟署也不是工作層級全棟署它也是整合所有的那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署當時就是希望提升它這樣的量能\n\n19\n00:06:46,964 --> 00:07:01,929\n結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的所以如果是這樣我們希望君子人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啊\n\n20\n00:07:15,164 --> 00:07:35,440\n我跟委員報告,我不認為因為全動數的量能擴大之後事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會防衛任性的一個精進部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策\n\n21\n00:07:36,765 --> 00:07:45,075\n委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好\n\n22\n00:07:45,529 --> 00:08:11,965\n全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊\n\n23\n00:08:12,285 --> 00:08:14,428\n現在全社會黃蕩性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等\n\n24\n00:08:31,386 --> 00:08:50,198\n還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們\n\n25\n00:09:00,612 --> 00:09:28,511\n最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個那另外\n\n26\n00:09:31,674 --> 00:09:44,471\n在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿\n\n27\n00:09:47,515 --> 00:09:51,338\n我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們《蟒蛇戰略》大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解\n\n28\n00:10:13,693 --> 00:10:32,159\n那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛\n\n29\n00:10:42,223 --> 00:10:51,296\n日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的\n\n30\n00:10:52,711 --> 00:11:13,304\n尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要\n\n31\n00:11:15,425 --> 00:11:31,334\n了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?\n\n32\n00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:45,091\n在程序上有經過懲核,那內容上面我事先沒有瞭解沒有瞭解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有最蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的\n\n33\n00:11:46,371 --> 00:12:03,743\n《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSIS就跟那個BonnieGrazer、葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰這種概念我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產\n\n34\n00:12:13,770 --> 00:12:19,812\n因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標\n\n35\n00:12:40,090 --> 00:12:55,849\n統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端\n\n36\n00:12:58,071 --> 00:13:15,778\n這個部分我們在近兩年第一個,台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣、治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴洛西來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我認為是中國的虛信、僥信\n\n37\n00:13:25,521 --> 00:13:48,412\n部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個\n\n38\n00:13:52,074 --> 00:13:55,198\n主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣\n\n39\n00:14:08,857 --> 00:14:28,171\n所以我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法不是跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以\n\n40\n00:14:28,911 --> 00:14:45,197\n不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定所以全球的經濟環保部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的核體穩定現狀\n\n41\n00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:57,040\n和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質它的本質都在你也擋不了連美國都擋不了\n\n42\n00:15:10,524 --> 00:15:15,946\n所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不如能夠採取一項主義那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人所以你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講\n\n43\n00:15:30,712 --> 00:15:37,413\n然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由\n\n44\n00:16:00,698 --> 00:16:20,054\n你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊\n\n45\n00:16:23,277 --> 00:16:26,178\n我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正\n\n46\n00:16:42,122 --> 00:16:45,283\n美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法\n\n47\n00:17:10,313 --> 00:17:31,188\n那如果聯合利建C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想就跟國剛剛講的中國會不斷的找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利建C怎麼樣子界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊這個是由它來定義的\n\n48\n00:17:31,888 --> 00:17:39,093\n對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判\n\n49\n00:18:00,141 --> 00:18:20,318\n我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍\n\n50\n00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:34,282\n或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做\n\n51\n00:18:36,186 --> 00:18:39,049\n對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」\n\n52\n00:18:52,001 --> 00:18:56,502\n請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對\n\n53\n00:19:21,607 --> 00:19:24,295\n我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n492\t1357\t謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長\n12657\t39428\t部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡\n42059\t52204\t我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所液管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫\n60729\t84288\t因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊\n87670\t88371\t這都是以前沒有做的\n117250\t133065\t因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分\n134409\t148734\t這一個在全動法我知道它本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的\n150510\t156514\t教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有\n177445\t202662\t包括你的彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為\n203943\t210808\t那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道\n231784\t253405\t那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?\n254938\t277408\t向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講了各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化\n278868\t285693\t所以動員準備好任性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有任性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛任性委員會因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡\n307169\t310691\t群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院\n326877\t330698\t這樣可能是錯的喔因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合\n346804\t350906\t跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會他們是\n362850\t378497\t前董事在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計跨部會設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作根據這個政策層級以後他還要每個月\n379157\t384959\t全棟署也不是工作層級全棟署它也是整合所有的那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署當時就是希望提升它這樣的量能\n406964\t421929\t結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的所以如果是這樣我們希望君子人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啊\n435164\t455440\t我跟委員報告,我不認為因為全動數的量能擴大之後事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會防衛任性的一個精進部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策\n456765\t465075\t委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好\n465529\t491965\t全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊\n492285\t494428\t現在全社會黃蕩性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等\n511386\t530198\t還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們\n540612\t568511\t最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個那另外\n571674\t584471\t在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿\n587515\t591338\t我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們《蟒蛇戰略》大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解\n613693\t632159\t那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛\n642223\t651296\t日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的\n652711\t673304\t尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要\n675425\t691334\t了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?\n692130\t705091\t在程序上有經過懲核,那內容上面我事先沒有瞭解沒有瞭解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有最蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的\n706371\t723743\t《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSIS就跟那個Bonnie Grazer、葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰這種概念我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產\n733770\t739812\t因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標\n760090\t775849\t統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端\n778071\t795778\t這個部分我們在近兩年第一個,台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣、治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴洛西來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我認為是中國的虛信、僥信\n805521\t828412\t部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個\n832074\t835198\t主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣\n848857\t868171\t所以我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法不是跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以\n868911\t885197\t不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定所以全球的經濟環保部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的核體穩定現狀\n892679\t897040\t和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質它的本質都在你也擋不了連美國都擋不了\n910524\t915946\t所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不如能夠採取一項主義那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人所以你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講\n930712\t937413\t然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由\n960698\t980054\t你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊\n983277\t986178\t我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正\n1002122\t1005283\t美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法\n1030313\t1051188\t那如果聯合利建C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想就跟國剛剛講的中國會不斷的找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利建C怎麼樣子界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊這個是由它來定義的\n1051888\t1059093\t對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判\n1080141\t1100318\t我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍\n1101840\t1114282\t或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做\n1116186\t1119049\t對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」\n1132001\t1136502\t請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對\n1161607\t1164295\t我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長\n部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡\n我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所液管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫\n因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊\n這都是以前沒有做的\n因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分\n這一個在全動法我知道它本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的\n教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有\n包括你的彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為\n那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道\n那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?\n向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講了各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化\n所以動員準備好任性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有任性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛任性委員會因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡\n群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院\n這樣可能是錯的喔因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合\n跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會他們是\n前董事在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計跨部會設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作根據這個政策層級以後他還要每個月\n全棟署也不是工作層級全棟署它也是整合所有的那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署當時就是希望提升它這樣的量能\n結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的所以如果是這樣我們希望君子人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啊\n我跟委員報告,我不認為因為全動數的量能擴大之後事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會防衛任性的一個精進部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策\n委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好\n全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊\n現在全社會黃蕩性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等\n還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們\n最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個那另外\n在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿\n我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們《蟒蛇戰略》大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解\n那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛\n日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的\n尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要\n了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?\n在程序上有經過懲核,那內容上面我事先沒有瞭解沒有瞭解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有最蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的\n《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSIS就跟那個Bonnie Grazer、葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰這種概念我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產\n因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標\n統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端\n這個部分我們在近兩年第一個,台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣、治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴洛西來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我認為是中國的虛信、僥信\n部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個\n主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣\n所以我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法不是跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以\n不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定所以全球的經濟環保部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的核體穩定現狀\n和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質它的本質都在你也擋不了連美國都擋不了\n所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不如能夠採取一項主義那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人所以你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講\n然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由\n你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊\n我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正\n美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法\n那如果聯合利建C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想就跟國剛剛講的中國會不斷的找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利建C怎麼樣子界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊這個是由它來定義的\n對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判\n我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍\n或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做\n對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」\n請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對\n我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.492 --> 00:01.357\n謝謝主席麻煩請顧部長\n\n00:12.657 --> 00:39.428\n部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡\n\n00:42.059 --> 00:52.204\n我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所液管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫\n\n01:00.729 --> 01:24.288\n因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊\n\n01:27.670 --> 01:28.371\n這都是以前沒有做的\n\n01:57.250 --> 02:13.065\n因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分\n\n02:14.409 --> 02:28.734\n這一個在全動法我知道它本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的\n\n02:30.510 --> 02:36.514\n教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有\n\n02:57.445 --> 03:22.662\n包括你的彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為\n\n03:23.943 --> 03:30.808\n那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道\n\n03:51.784 --> 04:13.405\n那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?\n\n04:14.938 --> 04:37.408\n向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講了各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化\n\n04:38.868 --> 04:45.693\n所以動員準備好任性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有任性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛任性委員會因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡\n\n05:07.169 --> 05:10.691\n群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院\n\n05:26.877 --> 05:30.698\n這樣可能是錯的喔因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合\n\n05:46.804 --> 05:50.906\n跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會他們是\n\n06:02.850 --> 06:18.497\n前董事在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計跨部會設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作根據這個政策層級以後他還要每個月\n\n06:19.157 --> 06:24.959\n全棟署也不是工作層級全棟署它也是整合所有的那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署當時就是希望提升它這樣的量能\n\n06:46.964 --> 07:01.929\n結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的所以如果是這樣我們希望君子人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啊\n\n07:15.164 --> 07:35.440\n我跟委員報告,我不認為因為全動數的量能擴大之後事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會防衛任性的一個精進部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策\n\n07:36.765 --> 07:45.075\n委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好\n\n07:45.529 --> 08:11.965\n全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊\n\n08:12.285 --> 08:14.428\n現在全社會黃蕩性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等\n\n08:31.386 --> 08:50.198\n還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們\n\n09:00.612 --> 09:28.511\n最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個那另外\n\n09:31.674 --> 09:44.471\n在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿\n\n09:47.515 --> 09:51.338\n我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們《蟒蛇戰略》大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解\n\n10:13.693 --> 10:32.159\n那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛\n\n10:42.223 --> 10:51.296\n日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的\n\n10:52.711 --> 11:13.304\n尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要\n\n11:15.425 --> 11:31.334\n了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?\n\n11:32.130 --> 11:45.091\n在程序上有經過懲核,那內容上面我事先沒有瞭解沒有瞭解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有最蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的\n\n11:46.371 --> 12:03.743\n《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSIS就跟那個BonnieGrazer、葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰這種概念我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產\n\n12:13.770 --> 12:19.812\n因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標\n\n12:40.090 --> 12:55.849\n統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端\n\n12:58.071 --> 13:15.778\n這個部分我們在近兩年第一個,台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣、治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴洛西來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我認為是中國的虛信、僥信\n\n13:25.521 --> 13:48.412\n部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個\n\n13:52.074 --> 13:55.198\n主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣\n\n14:08.857 --> 14:28.171\n所以我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法不是跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以\n\n14:28.911 --> 14:45.197\n不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定所以全球的經濟環保部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的核體穩定現狀\n\n14:52.679 --> 14:57.040\n和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質它的本質都在你也擋不了連美國都擋不了\n\n15:10.524 --> 15:15.946\n所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不如能夠採取一項主義那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人所以你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講\n\n15:30.712 --> 15:37.413\n然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由\n\n16:00.698 --> 16:20.054\n你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊\n\n16:23.277 --> 16:26.178\n我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正\n\n16:42.122 --> 16:45.283\n美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法\n\n17:10.313 --> 17:31.188\n那如果聯合利建C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想就跟國剛剛講的中國會不斷的找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利建C怎麼樣子界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊這個是由它來定義的\n\n17:31.888 --> 17:39.093\n對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判\n\n18:00.141 --> 18:20.318\n我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍\n\n18:21.840 --> 18:34.282\n或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做\n\n18:36.186 --> 18:39.049\n對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」\n\n18:52.001 --> 18:56.502\n請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對\n\n19:21.607 --> 19:24.295\n我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.492,"end":1.357,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":12.657,"end":39.428,"text":"部長好部長我們今天的議題當然大家可能也許有不同的看法不過我首先先來請教一下就是我們的權動室變成權動署它從20幾個人的編制變成130幾個那署長也已經到了14職等我想要請教一下我們目前權動署成立以後它最大的成效在哪裡"},{"start":42.059,"end":52.204,"text":"我想全動數成立以後我們如同委員所說的我們的人員編制有所提升所以說這幾年做了什麼就好因為我們變成全動數以後我們做了什麼然後它的成效在哪裡簡單全動數所液管的不管是輔導各部會的計畫"},{"start":60.729,"end":84.288,"text":"因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討深入計畫的精進第二我們的演習的幅度我也看到逐年驗證都在提升比如說我們的這個防空的演習我們確實去做到很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難等等而且資訊化配合內政部APP來提供等等還有全民國防應變手冊"},{"start":87.67,"end":88.371,"text":"這都是以前沒有做的"},{"start":117.25,"end":133.065,"text":"因為最近可能就是舉個例子來說難道只是講得沸沸揚揚的現在青年扶擒同意書這個部分這個是教育部自己去做的還是權動署指導他們去做的就這個部分"},{"start":134.409,"end":148.734,"text":"這一個在全動法我知道它本來就有告訴我們說最近因為在最近去做這樣子的一個同意書的一個調查這是教育部自己去做的還是全動署指導的"},{"start":150.51,"end":156.514,"text":"教育部他本於他設定這個分類計畫他去規劃最主要要跟委員報告就是說因為過去這20年來都有這個計畫然後一般以前的採取就是說觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練嘛那因為去年在預告的時候其實我們沒有修任何的一個文字但是有些這個我們知道在民防法裡面也有"},{"start":177.445,"end":202.662,"text":"包括你的彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡可是因為你最近大家已經落實下去可能去做調查因為在民防法裡面高中生他甚至也是在涵蓋在民防法裡面的就是我們的民防動員的這個部分所以在法裡面雖然有可是過去一直沒有這樣子讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為"},{"start":203.943,"end":210.808,"text":"那時候風平浪靜大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的這是我們想要探討這個待會兒會講可是我們現在再一次剛剛權動署提到說你只是安全性或者像一些量能好像覺得比較精進你說民眾要知道要去躲哪裡我看大部分的民眾還是不知道"},{"start":231.784,"end":253.405,"text":"那在這裡還要請教的是全動署跟全社會防衛任性委員會它的差別是在哪裡?部長總統府6月份成立的全社會防衛任性委員會跟全動署現在的執掌的一個部分它的差別在哪裡?"},{"start":254.938,"end":277.408,"text":"向委員報告我們這成立以後到現在兩年多餘我們不斷地去精進剛才我講了各種的一個韌性計畫那如同剛才各部委員有報告它的儲備怎麼樣加來增加我們的一個量能所以我只講一句就好這些的準備充實以後就能夠使得國家的韌性強化"},{"start":278.868,"end":285.693,"text":"所以動員準備好任性就會強化所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的因為你的動員準備夠充分然後強度夠的話其實你大概就不需要你就會有任性了嘛所以你現在總統府成立的全社會防衛任性委員會因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡部長是不是簡單的跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡"},{"start":307.169,"end":310.691,"text":"群眾署是作為全民黃衛任性委員會的秘書單位這個委員會在總統府設立之後整個跨部會的協調要結合國安會跟行政院"},{"start":326.877,"end":330.698,"text":"這樣可能是錯的喔因為當時我一開始說全動事變成全動署很重要的一個原因就是它本來就是一個秘書單位它本來就是很多幕僚其實在做的軍事動員可是你現在變成全動署以後其實它很多的整合"},{"start":346.804,"end":350.906,"text":"跟包括民力、民務力動員演習的部分其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調或者要去做什麼樣的指導本來就全動數要做可是你現在變成再多一個任性委員會他們是"},{"start":362.85,"end":378.497,"text":"前董事在工作階層要進行整合跨部會的設計跨部會設計各項動員的準備計劃他在工作層級那另外有一個政策層級所以在政策層級是一件事情在工作根據這個政策層級以後他還要每個月"},{"start":379.157,"end":384.959,"text":"全棟署也不是工作層級全棟署它也是整合所有的那應該全棟署其實它的功能已經不太重要它就恢復到原來的全棟室就好了現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下你現在這麼缺軍還有缺人的情況之下你把所有的人力很多都調到全棟署當時就是希望提升它這樣的量能"},{"start":406.964,"end":421.929,"text":"結果你成立以後你現在上面又成立一個任性委員會那其實他本來也不是自己做啊那任性委員會當然也不是自己做啊權動署也沒有自己做啊他也是做一些整合或者像所有的這些訊息還有包括像對各縣市的指導其實都是一樣的所以如果是這樣我們希望君子人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點不然你是跌闖架屋的啊"},{"start":435.164,"end":455.44,"text":"我跟委員報告,我不認為因為全動數的量能擴大之後事實上以我在國安會的這個經驗它整個我們全社會防衛任性的一個精進部長你告訴我們你先不要說一個是政策然後一個是工作它所謂的政策它可以指導什麼樣不同的政策"},{"start":456.765,"end":465.075,"text":"委員會政策的部分就是說在因為他可以做到原來權動署做不到的告訴我們這個就好"},{"start":465.529,"end":491.965,"text":"全動數的位階畢竟是在國防部底下的單一部我們是國防部有一個單一部會所以如果還要做進行跨部會包括在座的各位這個各部會之間的一個進行協調還是要有一個角色性的單位來做那你還是回復全動式就好了因為它現在如果它都功能沒有再有擴大的機會或者像它過去它全動式的時候以前也都是在管制啊"},{"start":492.285,"end":494.428,"text":"現在全社會黃蕩性的一個項目已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了全東市以前也做這些不管是像民訪他到戰時的時候做所有的民力資源調度包括我們說的糧食等等"},{"start":511.386,"end":530.198,"text":"還有一些能源等等其實他都是做一個整合報告的像這樣子如果他沒有太大的功能我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員他可以更務實的去做他們的工作因為他們都好不容易訓練出來的就這個部分部長可能還可以去思考一下因為當時蔡總統他這個任內那時候部長其實是國安會裡面的我們"},{"start":540.612,"end":568.511,"text":"最主要的一個主導之一啦那把它變成全動數我想其實您大概對這個應該也很清楚它的一個目標方向現在顯然他們可能是有重疊的部分那另外我們今天有提到這個部分我們請部長你們再去做一個統合好不好就是說我們不要讓很多的單位成立以後你都是跌床架屋的這是我們現在要特別提出來的主要是因為這個那另外"},{"start":571.674,"end":584.471,"text":"在國防部底下的全動數我認為成立之後有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜那現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多沒關係部長把全動數成立以後因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來阿"},{"start":587.515,"end":591.338,"text":"我有特別問了說全動數成立以後我們的成效主要是在哪裡那應該也讓大家知道那不然你增加了人員的編制然後你也增加了預算可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡這是一點那再給我們書面資料好了那另外就是我們《蟒蛇戰略》大家都在談的其實可能每一個可能有不同的看法跟見解"},{"start":613.693,"end":632.159,"text":"那蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分可是在目前來說是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的一個做法因為你如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍甚至在經濟跟心理戰現在目前其實已經在進行了而不是在短暫的情況之下做的我現在只想要提的是因為目前至少還有島鏈嘛"},{"start":642.223,"end":651.296,"text":"日韓還有非其實都還有美軍存在的前提之下保與封鎖跟這樣的一個作戰行為可能是行不通的"},{"start":652.711,"end":673.304,"text":"尤其現在各國對於打中的這個政治紅利其實都有還有很大的市場所以這個心理戰也是行不通的所以蟒蛇戰略我想其實現在對台灣已經在做的可能就很多長遠的方向來看其實是現在在進行可是我們現在比較想要"},{"start":675.425,"end":691.334,"text":"了解的是一個現役的海軍就是我們的司令他去接受這樣子的一個媒體的採訪外媒的採訪他是經過部長同意的嗎?或者他的那個內容你有沒有看過?"},{"start":692.13,"end":705.091,"text":"在程序上有經過懲核,那內容上面我事先沒有瞭解沒有瞭解因為他只有訪綱,但是他答的內容我沒有事先沒有最蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的"},{"start":706.371,"end":723.743,"text":"《蟒蛇戰略》事實上CSIS就跟那個Bonnie Grazer、葛萊伊事實上他們之前就提出類似可是他們是有不太一致的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的不過在概念上都是一種法律戰法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰這種概念我們現在說的是今天這個蟒蛇如果可以一口把你吞掉的時候他幹嘛慢慢產"},{"start":733.77,"end":739.812,"text":"因為他現在如果他有能力我們現在比較擔心的是這個所以像我們剛剛提到的他如果說在很短的時間之內我想他不會用那種慢慢的把你勒緊以後選擇時機然後再把你吃掉他現在已經在進行已經這麼長的時間已經在做所以你如果封鎖台灣對老共來說這個可能不是他的因為沒有辦法達到他的目標"},{"start":760.09,"end":775.849,"text":"統一其實是它一直存在的一個做法解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法可是我們在整個過程當中我覺得我們現在因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到避免中共有機會借勢升端"},{"start":778.071,"end":795.778,"text":"這個部分我們在近兩年第一個,台灣原來有戰略眾生的海峽中線它是如何失去的?難道不是因為政府為了大內宣、治國還有給予在國際宣傳的情況之下去同意邀請美國前眾議長裴洛西來台灣所以我們失去了海峽中線?我認為是中國的虛信、僥信"},{"start":805.521,"end":828.412,"text":"部長你先聽完我的話然後再一起說台海境線制水域默契如何被打破的其實一件本來可以透過人道還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難事件可是在政府的堅持之下用最糟糕的危機處理方式激化了兩岸緊張的關係我為什麼提這兩個"},{"start":832.074,"end":835.198,"text":"主要是因為唐司令有提到說不要有藉口讓他們去借勢升端這是我們想要做的嘛就像我們現在不親起衝突的態度是一樣的可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣"},{"start":848.857,"end":868.171,"text":"所以我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包就這個部分我們希望不要把他全部怪到什麼大家沒有防禦或者要保護自己大家有什麼樣不同的看法不是跟委員報告這個國慶的演說以他以"},{"start":868.911,"end":885.197,"text":"不管以任何的理由中國來進行這個聯合力艦B的這個樣子的演習他演習之後幾十個國家來進行譴責認為海海的區域和平穩定所以全球的經濟環保部長我們共同譴責部長我們共同譴責可是我們現在要說的是我們只是要維護海海的核體穩定現狀"},{"start":892.679,"end":897.04,"text":"和平穩定現狀是大多數國人所祈求的我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀可是你要告訴我們為什麼會變這樣我剛剛舉的兩個例子本來可以不要發生的就是中國的極權擴張的本質它的本質都在你也擋不了連美國都擋不了"},{"start":910.524,"end":915.946,"text":"所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平安全的狀況之下我們應該要做什麼樣的一個動作還有我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力我們不如能夠採取一項主義那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人所以你簽了這個未來要保護國家你不要又做然後又不敢講"},{"start":930.712,"end":937.413,"text":"然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家為什麼不願意今天自己的家自己的生命自己的財產有誰不願意可是不是有人去製造了以後叫別人一定要來承受或別人一定要來怎麼做你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園守護我們自己的國家好好的告訴我們全體國人我們必須要這樣面對你宮廟如果要存儲彈藥為什麼要存儲彈藥告訴大家理由"},{"start":960.698,"end":980.054,"text":"你年輕人為什麼要簽這個未來有沒有有一些是軍事的這些勤務有沒有好好的告訴年輕人讓他們有心理準備我想這個才是你今天如果說要大家共同有一條心來守護我們國家這個才是大家能接受的不要又要做可是又不敢講然後才來怪東怪西這樣不是對的啊"},{"start":983.277,"end":986.178,"text":"我們維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識我們所努力尋求也是在維持這個現狀而中國不認為維持現狀是一個它可以接受的所以中國的軍事武力擴張中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的美國可以跟它校正"},{"start":1002.122,"end":1005.283,"text":"美國可以跟他校正我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念那不好意思我最後問你一個問題就好部長在您受訪的時候你說聯合利建B其實這個可能是一個包圍封鎖的態勢或者一般的看法就一些軍事的專家看法"},{"start":1030.313,"end":1051.188,"text":"那如果聯合利建C你覺得會是什麼做法?是不是可以有沒有一個應對的想法?我想就跟國剛剛講的中國會不斷的找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何它所想要進行的演習它怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利建C怎麼樣子界定它什麼叫做聯合戰備警訊這個是由它來定義的"},{"start":1051.888,"end":1059.093,"text":"對,我們不在乎它怎麼接近可是因為它影響的是我們那B已經這麼近的距離我們並不想升高衝突我們也沒有要升高衝突可是就聯合力艦C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢會用什麼樣的模式我剛已經講了這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合力艦C我不是要定義它啦就是說對我們的影響會是什麼有沒有一個預判"},{"start":1080.141,"end":1100.318,"text":"我只能夠剛剛講就是中國會又利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行它所謂的聯合力艦C我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合力艦C在什麼時候它就會進行或者會不會進行但是呢它就像它這一次聯合力艦B它所要演練的這個範圍"},{"start":1101.84,"end":1114.282,"text":"或要操演的這個範圍事實上在我們看起來他也不一定有把他全部操演完畢他就是這樣子一天時間就過了但事實上他講的那個事項那到底是什麼叫做"},{"start":1116.186,"end":1119.049,"text":"對陸對海的攻擊、綜合的控制權,這些範圍都是他在定義的。」"},{"start":1132.001,"end":1136.502,"text":"請部長提供書面就是說因為今天謝謝主席他訂了這樣的一個題目那我們是認為說當我們在聯合立監B這樣的狀況之下我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備如果萬一有C大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待台灣我們不要他的定義我們要我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對"},{"start":1161.607,"end":1164.295,"text":"我們不甚高衝突,但是我們要隨時保持警覺"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":538,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時56分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，針對今天的議題，當然大家也許有不同的看法，不過我首先先來請教一下，我們的全動室變成全動署，它從二十幾個人的編制變成一百三十幾個人，署長也已經到了十四職等，我想請教一下，全動署成立以後，它最大的成效在哪裡？"],["白署長捷隆：我想全動署成立以後，如同委員所說的，我們的人員編制有所提升……"],["馬委員文君：你只要說這幾年做了什麼就好，變成全動署以後，你們做了什麼？然後它的成效在哪裡？簡單說明好不好？"],["白署長捷隆：好，全動署所業管的，不管是輔導各部會的計畫，因為有了能量以後每月做到可以一起共同探討、深入計畫的精進。第二，我們的演習幅度，委員也看到逐年驗證都在提升，比如說我們的防空演習，我們確實做到……很多民眾說不知道到哪裡去避難，而且資訊化配合內政部app來提供等等，還有全民國防應變手冊，這都是以前沒有做的。"],["馬委員文君：現在民眾要去哪裡？因為以前沒有那麼緊張，已經很久沒那麼緊張，以前防空洞在哪裡大家都知道，現在沒有了嘛！我們要的是具體的作為，因為已經兩、三年了，而剛剛講的還都是軍事動員的部分，那個你只是比較精進就可以了，因為那個平常都在做，在全動室的時候也在做啊！我們現在指的是變成全動署以後到底有什麼？舉個例子來說，現在講得沸沸揚揚的青年服勤同意書，這個部分是教育部自己去做的，還是全動署指導他們去做的？"],["白署長捷隆：這個在全動法……"],["馬委員文君：我知道它本來就有……"],["白署長捷隆：本來就有。"],["馬委員文君：請告訴我們最近去做這樣子的同意書調查，這是教育部自己去做的，還是全動署指導的？"],["白署長捷隆：教育部本於它策定這個分類計畫、它去規劃……"],["馬委員文君：教育部自己做的？"],["白署長捷隆：最主要要跟委員報告的就是說，過去這二十年來都有這個計畫，以前採取的觀念上是說學生都要接受這些訓練，因為去年在預告的時候，其實我們沒有修任何的文字，但是有些……"],["馬委員文君：這個我們知道，在民防法裡面也有，包括彈藥的存儲會放在哪裡，可是因為最近大家已經落實下去，可能是去做調查，因為在民防法裡面，高中生甚至也是涵蓋在民防法裡面的，也就是我們民防動員這個部分。在法裡面雖然有，可是過去一直沒有讓大家這麼在乎的原因是因為那時候風平浪靜，大家覺得離戰爭的距離可能很遠，可是現在這樣的氛圍是怎麼造成的？這是我們想要探討的，這個待會兒會講。","剛剛全動署提到你只是為了安全性或者一些量能好像比較精進，你說民眾知道要去躲哪裡，我看大部分的民眾還是不知道欸！在這裡還要請教的是，全動署跟全社會防衛韌性委員會的差別是在哪裡？總統府6月分成立的全社會防衛韌性委員會跟全動署現在的職掌，它的差別在哪裡？"],["白署長捷隆：向委員報告，我們成立以後到現在兩年多，我們不斷去精進剛才我所講的各種韌性計畫，如同剛才各部會也有報告，它的儲備怎麼樣增加我們的量能……"],["馬委員文君：署長，我現在……"],["白署長捷隆：我只講一句就好，這一些準備充實以後，就能夠使得國家的韌性強化，所以動員準備好，韌性就會強化。"],["馬委員文君：所以你的意思是總統府成立的那個是多餘的？因為你的動員準備夠充分，然後強度夠的話，其實大概就不需要……因為你就會有韌性了嘛，就現在總統府成立的全社會防衛韌性委員會而言，因為我們看不出來它跟全動署的差異在哪裡？部長是不是簡單跟我們說明一下它的差別在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：簡單講就是全動署是作為全民防衛韌性委員會的一個秘書單位吧！"],["白署長捷隆：對。"],["顧部長立雄：這個委員會在總統府設立之後，它整個的跨部會協調要結合國安會跟行政院。"],["馬委員文君：部長，這樣可能是錯的喔！我一開始說全動室變成全動署很重要的一個原因，其實它本來就是秘書單位，它本來就是很多幕僚在做軍事動員，可是現在變成全動署以後，其實它很多的整合，包括民力、物力動員演習的部分，其實這些要怎麼樣去整合、協調，或者要去做什麼樣的指導，本來就是全動署要做，可是現在變成再多一個韌性委員會……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，全動署在工作階層要進行整合，跨部會策進各項動員的準備計畫，它在工作層級。另外有一個政策層級，所以在政策層級是一件事情，根據這個政策層級以後，它還要每個月都……"],["馬委員文君：全動署也不是工作層級，全動署它也是整合所有的……"],["顧部長立雄：我說跨部會的工作層級都要做。"],["馬委員文君：其實全動署的功能已經不太重要，它就回復到原來的全動室就好了，現在全軍包括中校、上校訓練這麼不容易的情況之下，現在這麼缺軍、缺人的情況之下，你把很多人力都調到全動署，當時就是希望提升它的量能，結果全動署成立以後，你現在上面又成立一個韌性委員會，其實它本來也不是自己做，韌性委員會當然也不是自己做，全動署也沒有自己做，它也是做一些整合，像所有的這些訊息，還有包括像對各縣市的指導，其實都是一樣的，如果是這樣，我們希望軍職人員回到基層可能還會再更務實一點，不然，你是疊床架屋的。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我不認為，因為全動署的量能擴大之後，事實上，以我在國安會的經驗，整個我們全社會防衛韌性的精進，然後範圍的擴大……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你先不要說一個是政策層級，然後一個是工作層級，你告訴我們，所謂的「政策」，委員會可以指導什麼樣不同的政策？"],["顧部長立雄：政策的部分，就是說在……因為……"],["馬委員文君：它可以做到什麼原來全動署做不到的，告訴我們這個就好。"],["顧部長立雄：全動署的位階畢竟是在國防部底下，我們是國防部的單一部會，所以如果還要進行跨部會的，包括在座的各部會之間要進行協調，還是要有一個決策性的單位來做。"],["馬委員文君：好，部長，那我們建議你還是回復全動室就好了，因為現在如果它的功能沒有再擴大的機會，或者像它過去……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，它要管制，它要管制各項喔。"],["馬委員文君：以前它是全動室的時候，也都是在管制啊。所以，部長，這個部分……"],["顧部長立雄：現在全社會防衛韌性的項目，已經比之前擴大到非常非常多了。"],["馬委員文君：全動室以前也做這些，像民防，它到戰時的時候，做所有的民力資源調度，包括我們說的糧食還有能源等等，其實它都是做一個整合、報告的，像這樣如果它沒有太大的功能，我們希望讓所有的幕僚人員，可以更務實的去做他們的工作，因為他們都是好不容易訓練出來的。就這個部分，部長還可以去思考一下，因為當時在蔡總統的任內，部長其實是國安會裡面最主要的主導之一，把它變成全動署，我想其實您對此應該也很清楚它的目標、方向，現在顯然兩者可能有重疊的部分，這個部分我們請部長再去做一個統合，好不好？就是我們不要讓很多單位成立以後都是疊床架屋的，我們現在要特別提出來的主要原因是這個。那另外……"],["顧部長立雄：在國防部底下的全動署，我認為成立之後，有助於行政團隊跟各部會強化動員準備的各項事宜，現在整個動員準備的事宜範圍擴大了很多，所以需要……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，把全動署成立以後，因為剛剛顯然沒有講出什麼來，我有特別問說，全動署成立以後，主要的成效在哪裡，應該要讓大家知道，不然你增加了人員的編制，然後也增加了預算，可是我們不知道它的成效在哪裡，這是一點，那再給我們書面資料好了。","另外就是大家都在談的蟒蛇戰略，其實每一個人可能有不同的看法跟見解，蟒蛇戰略主要大概就是經濟戰跟心理戰的部分，可是目前來說，是不是中共解放軍會使用這樣子的作法？因為如果說蟒蛇戰略是用封鎖包圍，甚至在經濟跟心理戰，現在目前其實已經在進行了，而不是在短暫的情況之下做的。我現在只想要提的是，因為目前至少還有島鏈，在日、韓、菲都還有美軍存在的前提之下，島嶼封鎖這樣的作戰行為可能是行不通的；尤其現在各國對於打中的政治紅利都還有很大的市場，所以心理戰也是行不通的。因此講到蟒蛇戰略，我想現在對臺灣已經在做的，就長遠的方向來看，其實現在正在進行，可是我們現在比較想要了解的是，我們一個現役的海軍司令去接受外媒採訪，他是經過部長同意的嗎？或者他的訪談內容，你有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：在程序上有經過呈核，但內容上面，我事先沒有了解。"],["馬委員文君：沒有了解？他就自己……"],["顧部長立雄：因為他只有訪綱，但是他答的內容，我沒有事先了解。"],["馬委員文君：所以蟒蛇戰略是他自己想出來的？"],["顧部長立雄：蟒蛇戰略，事實上CSIS跟Bonnie Glaser（葛來儀）他們之前就有提出類似的……"],["馬委員文君：可是他們之前提的跟後來唐華司令講的是不太一樣的，不過就我們現在……"],["顧部長立雄：在概念上都是一種法律戰、心理戰跟認知戰。"],["馬委員文君：法律戰？他們可能不會去講法律戰了。我們現在說的是，如果今天這個蟒蛇可以一口把你吞掉的時候，他幹嘛慢慢纏？現在如果他有能力，我們比較擔心的是這一個，所以，像我剛剛提到的，他如果能在很短的時間之內吞掉你，我想他不會用那種方式慢慢的把你勒緊，然後選擇時機再把你吃掉。他現在已經在進行，這麼長的時間已經在做，所以，你如果說封鎖臺灣，對老共來說，這個可能不是他的目的，因為沒有辦法達到他的目標，統一其實是他一直存在的一個做法，解放軍也一直都是這樣子的做法。可是我們在整個過程當中，我覺得我們現在，因為唐司令在受訪的時候有特別提到，要避免中共有機會借事生端，這個部分我們在近兩年，第一個，臺灣原來有戰略縱深的海峽中線是如何有失去的？難道不是因為政府為了大內宣治國，還有基於在國際宣傳的情況之下，去同意邀請美國前眾議院議長裴洛西來臺灣，所以我們失去了海峽中線。第二個……"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我不贊同……"],["馬委員文君：我先把我的話講完。第二個就是臺海……"],["顧部長立雄：我不贊同這樣的講法，我認為是中國的尋隙挑釁……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你先聽完我的話，然後再一起說。臺海禁限制水域默契如何被打破的？其實一件本來可以透過人道，還有兼顧情理法角度去妥善處理大陸人員落海以及遇難的事件，可是在政府的堅持之下，用最糟糕的危機處理方式，激化了兩岸的緊張關係。我為什麼提這兩個？主要是因為唐司令有提到，不要讓他們有藉口去借事生端，這是我們想要做的嘛，就像我們現在不輕啟衝突的態度是一樣的，可是我們在很多的作為上面卻不是這樣。所以，我們在這個部分主動的送他一個大禮包，就這個部分，我們希望不要全部怪到什麼大家沒有要防衛或者在保護自己這件事上，大家有什麼樣不同的看法，不是。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，國慶演說之後，不管中國以任何的理由來進行聯合利劍2024B演習，他演習之後，幾十個國家予以譴責，認為臺海的區域和平穩定，對全球的經濟繁榮至關重要，譴責他這樣子以……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們共同譴責，部長，我們共同譴責，可是我們現在要說的是……"],["顧部長立雄：我們只是要維護臺海的和平穩定現狀，是大多數國人所企求的，我們就是要維持和平穩定的現狀。"],["馬委員文君：和平穩定現狀？可是在近幾年，近幾年已經不是這樣，可是你要告訴我們，為什麼會變這樣？我剛剛舉的兩個例子，本來可以不要發生的。"],["顧部長立雄：就是中國的極權擴張的本質嘛，這是中國極權擴張的本質，他不斷的擴張他的軍力……"],["馬委員文君：他的本質都在，你也擋不了，連美國都擋不了，所以我們才在考量我們自己的和平、安全的狀況之下，我們應該要做什麼樣的動作，還有這個不是……"],["顧部長立雄：我們要強化我們的自我防衛能力，我們不能夠採投降主義。"],["馬委員文君：強化那沒有問題，那沒有問題，那就好好的告訴我們的年輕人，說你簽了這個，未來要保護國家，你不要又要做，然後又不敢講，然後才怪說大家不願意守護自己的國家。為什麼不願意？今天守護自己的家、自己的生命、自己的財產，有誰不願意？可是不是有人製造了風險以後，叫別人一定要來承受，或別人一定要怎麼做。","你今天政府如果要大家去守護自己的家園，守護我們自己的國家，好好的告訴我們全體國人，我們必須要這樣面對，如果要宮廟存儲彈藥，為什麼要存儲彈藥，告訴大家理由；年輕人為什麼要簽這個，未來有沒有一些是軍事的勤務，有沒有好好的告訴年輕人，讓他們有心理準備。你今天如果要大家一條心共同來守護我們國家，這個方式才是大家能接受的，不要又要做，可是又不敢講，然後才來怪東怪西，這樣不是對的。"],["顧部長立雄：維持現狀是我們國人最大的共識，我們所努力尋求的也是在維持這個現狀……"],["馬委員文君：我們也希望這樣子。"],["顧部長立雄：而中國不認為維持現狀是他可以接受的，所以中國的軍事武力擴張，他的威權本質就是這樣的霸道啊。"],["馬委員文君：中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的，中國的發展已經不是我們能控制的，美國可以跟他叫陣，我們也可以用我們的方式來維持和平，可是這個方式要我們的政府真的以蒼生為念。","不好意思，我最後問你一個問題就好，部長，在您受訪的時候，你說聯合利劍B其實可能是一個包圍、封鎖的態勢，或者是一般的看法、一些軍事專家的看法，如果有聯合利劍C，你覺得會是什麼作法？是不是可以說明有沒有一個應對的想法？"],["顧部長立雄：我想就是像我剛剛講的，中國會不斷地找任何的理由或藉口來實施任何他所想要進行的演習，他怎麼去界定什麼叫做聯合利劍C，他怎麼樣界定什麼叫做聯合戰備警巡，這個是由他來定義。"],["馬委員文君：對，我們不在乎他怎麼界定，可是因為他影響的是我們，那B已經是這麼近的距離，然後……"],["顧部長立雄：我們並不想升高衝突。"],["馬委員文君：我們也沒有要升高衝突，可是就聯合利劍C你覺得會是什麼樣的一個態勢？會用什麼樣的模式，可不可以簡單說一下？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛已經講了，這個是由中國來定義什麼叫做聯合利劍C。"],["馬委員文君：我不是要定義它啦！就是說對我們的影響會是什麼，有沒有一個預判？"],["主席：可以簡短說明一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我只能夠說就像剛剛講的，就是中國會利用任何的理由、任何的時機、任何的藉口來進行他所謂的聯合利劍C，我們沒有辦法能夠去說這個聯合利劍C在什麼時候他就會進行，或者會不會進行，但是就像他這一次的聯合利劍B所要演練的範圍或者他操演的範圍，事實上，在我們看起來，他也不一定有把它全部操演完畢，他就是這樣子1天時間就過了，但是事實上，他講的那幾個項目包括對陸、對海的攻擊還有奪取綜合的控制權，這些範圍都是他在定義的，這個都是他在定義的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，主席已經站起來了……"],["主席：部長，可不可以送書面說明給委員的辦公室？"],["馬委員文君：好，我們請部長提供書面，謝謝主席定了今天這樣的一個題目，我們認為當我們在聯合利劍B這樣的狀況之下，我們各個部會或者我們所有的單位或者政府或人民應該做什麼樣的因應跟準備，如果萬一有C，大家會怎麼樣的去看待他會用什麼樣的模式來對待臺灣，我們不要管他的定義，我們要知道我們自己應該要怎麼樣去突圍，或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做應對。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們不升高衝突，但是我們要隨時保持警覺。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝，麻煩提供書面資料。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬文君委員，部長請回。接下來我們請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}