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{\"start\": 431.239, \"end\": 452.608, \"text\": \"所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 431.239, \"end\": 431.419, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 431.419, \"end\": 431.439, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 431.439, \"end\": 431.699, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 431.699, \"end\": 431.799, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 431.799, \"end\": 431.959, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 431.959, \"end\": 432.14, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 432.14, \"end\": 432.32, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 432.32, \"end\": 432.68, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 432.68, \"end\": 433.26, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 433.26, \"end\": 433.56, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 452.268, \"end\": 452.288, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 452.288, \"end\": 452.568, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 452.568, \"end\": 452.588, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 452.588, \"end\": 452.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 457.23, \"end\": 484.707, \"text\": \"看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 457.23, \"end\": 457.43, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 457.43, \"end\": 457.63, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 457.63, \"end\": 457.75, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 457.75, \"end\": 457.87, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 457.87, \"end\": 458.551, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 664.363, \"end\": 664.483, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 664.483, \"end\": 664.503, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,352 --> 00:00:05,094\n謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本\n\n2\n00:00:19,585 --> 00:00:45,306\n我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候台灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁\n\n3\n00:00:48,459 --> 00:01:08,148\n我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁\n\n4\n00:01:16,619 --> 00:01:43,502\n還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁\n\n5\n00:01:46,823 --> 00:02:13,656\n好LadyGaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網\n\n6\n00:02:14,696 --> 00:02:26,127\n增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情\n\n7\n00:02:27,850 --> 00:02:51,337\n其實我們有試著去讓您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統\n\n8\n00:02:51,817 --> 00:02:51,857\n普馬委員．\n\n9\n00:03:10,194 --> 00:03:15,336\n明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpopk綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品\n\n10\n00:03:26,561 --> 00:03:26,721\n：陳培瑜\n\n11\n00:03:51,630 --> 00:03:53,532\n從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢\n\n12\n00:04:18,905 --> 00:04:33,656\n我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔\n\n13\n00:04:35,257 --> 00:04:48,527\n前百名佔了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎\n\n14\n00:04:50,448 --> 00:05:10,431\n為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台他會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們這個公司據我們了解是他裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說他還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有他中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華裔\n\n15\n00:05:11,031 --> 00:05:32,443\n當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道有這些品牌那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且\n\n16\n00:05:38,627 --> 00:05:57,535\n如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整於是你在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的\n\n17\n00:05:58,235 --> 00:06:22,271\n如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算\n\n18\n00:06:24,873 --> 00:06:52,492\n所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了2C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就引領自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡\n\n19\n00:06:55,475 --> 00:06:57,416\n可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?\n\n20\n00:07:11,239 --> 00:07:32,608\n所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎\n\n21\n00:07:37,230 --> 00:08:04,707\n看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本\n\n22\n00:08:05,407 --> 00:08:22,457\n但是為什麽他在電子書暨次接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛才講的這幾個辦法我們來\n\n23\n00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:45,305\n一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估\n\n24\n00:08:46,365 --> 00:09:00,069\n部長九個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝\n\n25\n00:09:01,730 --> 00:09:23,258\n一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因\n\n26\n00:09:23,698 --> 00:09:39,344\n我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色\n\n27\n00:09:39,784 --> 00:09:54,120\n那甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情\n\n28\n00:09:54,841 --> 00:10:22,570\n委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括畫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個這個我知道部長但是我時間有限然後我們想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法好\n\n29\n00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:40,324\n那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀到\n\n30\n00:10:43,827 --> 00:11:02,642\n採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎\n\n31\n00:11:04,343 --> 00:11:04,503\n謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3352\t5094\t謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本\n19585\t45306\t我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候台灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁\n48459\t68148\t我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁\n76619\t103502\t還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁\n106823\t133656\t好Lady Gaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網\n134696\t146127\t增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情\n147850\t171337\t其實我們有試著去讓您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統\n171817\t171857\t普馬委員．\n190194\t195336\t明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpop k綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品\n206561\t206721\t：陳培瑜\n231630\t233532\t從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢\n258905\t273656\t我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔\n275257\t288527\t前百名佔了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎\n290448\t310431\t為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台他會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們這個公司據我們了解是他裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說他還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有他中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華裔\n311031\t332443\t當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道有這些品牌那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且\n338627\t357535\t如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整於是你在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的\n358235\t382271\t如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算\n384873\t412492\t所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了2C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就引領自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡\n415475\t417416\t可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?\n431239\t452608\t所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎\n457230\t484707\t看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本\n485407\t502457\t但是為什麽他在電子書暨次接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛才講的這幾個辦法我們來\n508300\t525305\t一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估\n526365\t540069\t部長九個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝\n541730\t563258\t一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因\n563698\t579344\t我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色\n579784\t594120\t那甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情\n594841\t622570\t委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括畫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個這個我知道部長但是我時間有限然後我們想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法好\n623030\t640324\t那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀到\n643827\t662642\t採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎\n664343\t664503\t謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本\n我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候台灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁\n我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁\n還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁\n好Lady Gaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網\n增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情\n其實我們有試著去讓您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統\n普馬委員．\n明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpop k綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品\n：陳培瑜\n從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢\n我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔\n前百名佔了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎\n為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台他會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們這個公司據我們了解是他裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說他還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有他中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華裔\n當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道有這些品牌那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且\n如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整於是你在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的\n如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算\n所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了2C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就引領自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡\n可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?\n所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎\n看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本\n但是為什麽他在電子書暨次接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛才講的這幾個辦法我們來\n一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估\n部長九個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝\n一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因\n我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色\n那甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情\n委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括畫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個這個我知道部長但是我時間有限然後我們想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法好\n那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀到\n採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎\n謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.352 --> 00:05.094\n謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本\n\n00:19.585 --> 00:45.306\n我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候台灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁\n\n00:48.459 --> 01:08.148\n我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁\n\n01:16.619 --> 01:43.502\n還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁\n\n01:46.823 --> 02:13.656\n好LadyGaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網\n\n02:14.696 --> 02:26.127\n增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情\n\n02:27.850 --> 02:51.337\n其實我們有試著去讓您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統\n\n02:51.817 --> 02:51.857\n普馬委員．\n\n03:10.194 --> 03:15.336\n明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpopk綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品\n\n03:26.561 --> 03:26.721\n：陳培瑜\n\n03:51.630 --> 03:53.532\n從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢\n\n04:18.905 --> 04:33.656\n我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔\n\n04:35.257 --> 04:48.527\n前百名佔了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎\n\n04:50.448 --> 05:10.431\n為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台他會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們這個公司據我們了解是他裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說他還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有他中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華裔\n\n05:11.031 --> 05:32.443\n當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道有這些品牌那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且\n\n05:38.627 --> 05:57.535\n如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整於是你在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的\n\n05:58.235 --> 06:22.271\n如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算\n\n06:24.873 --> 06:52.492\n所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了2C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就引領自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡\n\n06:55.475 --> 06:57.416\n可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?\n\n07:11.239 --> 07:32.608\n所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎\n\n07:37.230 --> 08:04.707\n看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本\n\n08:05.407 --> 08:22.457\n但是為什麽他在電子書暨次接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛才講的這幾個辦法我們來\n\n08:28.300 --> 08:45.305\n一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估\n\n08:46.365 --> 09:00.069\n部長九個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝\n\n09:01.730 --> 09:23.258\n一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因\n\n09:23.698 --> 09:39.344\n我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色\n\n09:39.784 --> 09:54.120\n那甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情\n\n09:54.841 --> 10:22.570\n委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括畫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個這個我知道部長但是我時間有限然後我們想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法好\n\n10:23.030 --> 10:40.324\n那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀到\n\n10:43.827 --> 11:02.642\n採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎\n\n11:04.343 --> 11:04.503\n謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.352,"end":5.094,"text":"謝謝主席那有請部長好我們有請李部長好部長早安這是您的書對嗎沒有印象嗎第102本"},{"start":19.585,"end":45.306,"text":"我拿反了抱歉再一次第102本太好了那部長你知道你這本書有出有聲書嗎有好那你覺得有聲書也好紙本書也好都是為了推廣閱讀對嗎對那部長你的年紀應該比我大很多你記不記得小時候台灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號我第一本書就被盜版過對好部長我跟你報告恭喜你你現在新的有聲書也被盜版來下一頁"},{"start":48.459,"end":68.148,"text":"我們從韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了齁韓國做很多的外溢台灣的非常多的書也被做外溢了但是是用盜版的方法外溢我們上個月才開了會我們發現在盜版網站上從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版下一頁再來撲馬委員的有生課程也被盜版下一頁"},{"start":76.619,"end":103.502,"text":"還有這個李律師的書也被盜版還有台灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版再來線上課程好好的線上課程也被盜版也就是說有生書有生課程都被盜版那從台灣最早的盜版起源就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版不是只有台灣這些創作者被盜版我們再來看下一頁"},{"start":106.823,"end":133.656,"text":"好Lady Gaga的歌好這些宮崎駿的好那我們上個月呢10月1號沒有很久部長我們10月1號開了相關的會議我們召集了文化部速發部智慧財產局刑事警察局四個相關部會我一個都沒有漏掉但是文化部給的回應非常的消極甚至呢刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網"},{"start":134.696,"end":146.127,"text":"增加那個盜版網站的營業額然後才能去報案部長我手上這個光碟就是您這本第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟部長文化部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":147.85,"end":171.337,"text":"其實我們有試著去讓您剛才講說邀請好幾個單位文化部也只能用這個方式也只能這樣嗎部長您確定我覺得我們做的很有限我們的權力範圍跟能力很有限可是如果在相關的會議上制裁局認為文化部可以協助積極的認定這些書的正版擁有者就是像部長您像小英總統"},{"start":171.817,"end":171.857,"text":"普馬委員．"},{"start":190.194,"end":195.336,"text":"明明就有相關手法可是文化部的態度一直很消極如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎我們看著韓國人的kpop k綜藝或者是kdrama有這麼多的可能性在國際上但是我們台灣光是出版很多戲劇的源頭出版品"},{"start":206.561,"end":206.721,"text":"：陳培瑜"},{"start":231.63,"end":233.532,"text":"從前一任文化部長開始推電子書祭祀借閱我們在一月的時候呢"},{"start":258.905,"end":273.656,"text":"我們也拜託了文化部召開相關的會議去討論那部長根據我們跟你們的所知呢在電子書祭祀借閱平台上面有一家公司他叫點石曾經工作室他的估計他佔他的出版的書佔"},{"start":275.257,"end":288.527,"text":"前百名佔了40本他的年收入在這個9加312塊機制底下他得了200多萬這只是我們的預估收入可是部長我想問一下我們都來自出版業部長你有聽過這個出版社嗎"},{"start":290.448,"end":310.431,"text":"為什麼在電子書祭祀借閱平台他會是這麼高的點擊率啊有沒有可能有相關的問題我們這個公司據我們了解是他裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位比如個人工作室青少年文學小說他還有鼓勵讀者去點閱還有他中間有涵蓋四個不同的平台包括遠流華裔"},{"start":311.031,"end":332.443,"text":"當然我當然手上是資料是統計過我當然知道有這些品牌那我來跟部長報告一下三分微光也好這個都是我們很不知道的出版社我想部長我們就不要否認我們都來自出版產業可是我們看一下在前排名前面幾乎很多其實都是雜誌可是我們回頭來看文化部當時要做這件事情呢你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀促進出版業數位轉型可是我們看相關的數字部長你覺得有達到這件功能嗎而且"},{"start":338.627,"end":357.535,"text":"如果當時你們在推這個事情的時候你們有說你們會做政策的討論滾動性的調整於是你在1月份的時候告訴我們你們還沒有辦法評估到了9月我們再問你們你們還是說沒有辦法評估於是再過了8個月後你們新的標案又再度出爐可是我想問部長人心是這樣的"},{"start":358.235,"end":382.271,"text":"如果我有免費的書可以借我為什麼要去買書如果我有免費便當可以拿我為什麼要自己花錢買便當接下來我們來看的是當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部他圖C是會有影響的更甚且好假設我們不要管產業要不要死活我們不要管可是光是我們台灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響就是因為電子書7次借月排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算"},{"start":384.873,"end":412.492,"text":"所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響然後更不要講讀者這段他影響了2C這件事情部長你怎麼看這個事情如果你自己的一百本出版品原本在電子書平台可以賣得很好部長就引領自己的書但是他變成電子書祭司節約無上限而且你們沒有檢討機制我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有我們要如何信任這個政策到底是在幫忙出版業者還是在強害出版業者讓他逐漸走向死亡"},{"start":415.475,"end":417.416,"text":"可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家就不要去買書?"},{"start":431.239,"end":452.608,"text":"所以我說很多政策以為是幫助結果後來效果更不好但是我們不能去指責消費者可是光是我講的光是我們台灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到了影響那這個假如這個政策有一天他落日了他離開了這個檯面上那原本電子書在進圖書館買斷這個事情你們難道要再回復嗎預算要再補回去嗎"},{"start":457.23,"end":484.707,"text":"看起來沒有通盤的檢討不管是圖C或者是圖原來的圖書館這個部分都受到非常大的影響甚至是出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社他到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率難道我們不用考慮嗎甚至因為這件事情這個點擊率的排行榜我們去問了原本在賣電子書不管是COBO也好、REMOO也好或是其他電子書平台這些書原本過去一兩年在他們的平台上銷售都不到百本"},{"start":485.407,"end":502.457,"text":"但是為什麽他在電子書暨次接約平台卻造成這個局面我相信這不是部長您來自出版您身為出版人您樂意你所樂見的所以部長可不可以更積極我們來看這件事情我們到底還能做哪些事情你們通盤檢討到底什麽時候才要出來一個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎我們儘速把主委員剛才講的這幾個辦法我們來"},{"start":508.3,"end":525.305,"text":"一個月內因為我剛說我1月問你們你們說要通盤檢討業界也說要給大家時間但是到現在10月了已經過去9個月我還是沒有看到檢討然後告訴我們你們給我們的回覆告訴我們無法檢討無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好難以直接評估"},{"start":526.365,"end":540.069,"text":"部長九個月了我覺得這對出版業者非常的不公平更何況很多的戲劇很多的電影的腳本原本的發想IP是來自出版產業我相信部長你一定明白是好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":541.73,"end":563.258,"text":"一個月內再來部長我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情或者是我也在告訴教育部用閱讀作為學習方法是這個世代我們的大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因"},{"start":563.698,"end":579.344,"text":"我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處這些都知道但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這些事情可不可以有更積極的做法不管是從0歲到18歲文化部跟教育部跟衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色"},{"start":579.784,"end":594.12,"text":"那甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片里面談到假訊息機器人我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力不就是要從閱讀培養嗎那部長你如何看待這件事情"},{"start":594.841,"end":622.57,"text":"委員你講的這件事情我覺得非常重要而且我來之後現在才5個月我就做了很多能努力的去改變一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書包括畫畫或者繪本所以我推出一個這個我知道部長但是我時間有限然後我們想舉辦這個兒少書展大家過去也沒有辦過然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部我們共同來演繹一個更有效的方法好"},{"start":623.03,"end":640.324,"text":"那部長我提出類型小說因為台灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境甚至他們自己的相關的業者相關的創作者社群都還自己辦了獎項沒有跟文化部合作因為在文化部的眼中類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀到"},{"start":643.827,"end":662.642,"text":"採進台灣的出版的品項類型小說可能會是一個解方所以這個部分也要拜託部長你剛說跨部會的會議我們辦公室也會持續追蹤可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是台灣相關創作者團體的支持我覺得文化部可以更有角色更加積極也要拜託文化部一個月內給我們相關規劃報告可以嗎"},{"start":664.343,"end":664.503,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員你好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長早安。這是您的書，對嗎？你有印象嗎？"],["李部長遠：第102本。"],["陳委員培瑜：第102本，太好了。部長知道你這本書出版了有聲書嗎？"],["李部長遠：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：那你覺得，有聲書也好，紙本書也好，都是為了推廣閱讀，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長的年紀應該比我大很多，你記不記得小時候臺灣曾經有盜版王國的稱號？我小時候。"],["李部長遠：我第一本書就被盜版過。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我跟你報告，恭喜你，你現在新的有聲書也被盜版。","韓江這個事情我就先跳過好了。韓國做很多的外譯，臺灣有非常多的書也被外譯了，但是是用盜版的方法外譯。我們上個月才開了會，發現現在盜版網站上，從小英總統的書到部長您的書通通都被盜版。撲馬委員的有聲課程被盜版，李律師的書也被盜版，還有臺灣年輕人非常喜歡的法白網站相關的東西都被盜版，Hahow線上課程也被盜版，也就是有聲書、有聲課程都被盜版，臺灣最早的盜版起源，就是非常多的歌曲也被盜版。不是只有臺灣這些創作者被盜版，還有Lady Gaga的歌、宮崎駿這些。","在上個月，10月1日，沒有很久，部長，我們10月1日開了相關會議，召集文化部、數發部、智慧財產局、刑事警察局等4個相關部會，我一個都沒有漏掉，但是文化部給的回應非常消極，甚至刑事警察局要我們受害的業者自己上網，增加那個盜版網站的營業額，然後才能去報案。部長，我手上這個光碟，就是您第102本出版品被盜版的有聲光碟。文化部怎麼看這件事情？"],["李部長遠：其實我們有試著……就像您剛才講邀請好幾個單位，文化部也只能用這個方式邀請……"],["陳委員培瑜：也只能這樣嗎？部長，您確定喔？"],["李部長遠：我覺得我們做的很有限，我們的權力、範圍和能力很有限。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是如果在相關會議上，智財局認為文化部可以協助積極地認定這些書的正版擁有者，就像部長您、像小英總統、撲馬委員，自己都可以主張這就是我的作品，而那個網站上放的是盜版，文化部基本上可以積極協助智財局去認定這個東西，智財局可以再更進一步邀請數發部做出數位阻絕的事情，刑事警察局的報案當然是同步進行。明明就有相關手法，可是文化部的態度一直很消極。如果我們只是看著韓國人得諾貝爾獎，我們看著韓國人的K-Pop、K綜藝或者K-Drama，在國際上有這麼多的可能性，但我們臺灣光是出版，很多戲劇源頭的出版品都是這樣被對待，包含現在的有聲課程，你覺得臺灣的出版業者、創作者，我們到底要怎麼看待這個事情？我認為文化部的角色可以更積極。但是因為我時間有限，我讓部長看到這麼驚悚的畫面，我很抱歉，但是本人來自童書出版業，我也覺得非常地驚悚，我們是這樣對待臺灣的出版業者跟創作者，我認為文化部的角色可以更專業、更積極協助這件事情。文化部之前一再積極地要求業者去買，我也把證據留下來給你了，部長，我手上不只有盜版光碟，還有業者去買的截圖證據也都有了，拜託部長，這個部分我們會再積極召開會議，部長是不是可以承諾我們更加地積極？"],["李部長遠：會，我會。"],["陳委員培瑜：非常沉重，對嗎？但這是我們現在面對的現實。","再來，從前一任文化部長開始推電子書計次借閱，在1月的時候我們也拜託文化部召開相關的會議去討論。部長，根據我們跟你們索資，在電子書計次借閱平臺上面有一家公司叫點石成金工作室，估計它出版的書在前百名占了40本，它的年收入在這個9加3、12塊的機制底下，它得了兩百多萬，這只是我們的預估收入。我想問一下，我們都來自出版業，部長，你有聽過這個出版社嗎？為什麼在電子書計次借閱平臺，它會是這麼高的點擊率？有沒有可能有相關的問題，我們必須要去檢討？"],["李部長遠：據我們了解，這個公司裡面涵蓋了好幾個單位，譬如個人工作室、青少年文學小說，它還鼓勵讀者去點閱，還有它中間有涵蓋4個不同的平臺，包括遠流、華藝……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然，我手上的資料是統計過的，我當然知道有這些平臺……"],["李部長遠：對，它是用這個方式來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我來跟部長報告一下，三分微光也好，這個都是我們很不知道的出版社，我想部長，我們就不要否認，我們都來自出版產業。我們看一下，排名在前面的幾乎很多其實都是雜誌，我們回頭來看，文化部當時要做這件事情，你們說的是要鼓勵數位閱讀、促進出版業數位轉型，可是我們看相關的數字，部長，你覺得有達到這些功能嗎？而且當時你們在推這個事情的時候，你們有說你們會做政策的討論、滾動性的調整，於是你們在1月份的時候告訴我們，你們還沒有辦法評估；到了9月我們再問你們，你們還是說沒有辦法評估；於是再過了8個月後，你們新的標案又再度出爐。我想問部長，人心是這樣的，如果我有免費的書可以借，我為什麼要去買書？如果我有免費便當可以拿，我為什麼要自己花錢買便當？","接下來我們來看的是，當時其實很多業者就已經告訴文化部它to C是會有影響的，甚且假設我們不要管產業要不要死活，光是我們臺灣自己的圖書館以前買斷的電子書也受了影響，因為電子書計次借閱排擠掉圖書館買斷電子書的預算，所以光是公部門買斷的預算也受到影響，更不要講讀者這一段，它影響了to C這件事情。部長，你怎麼看這個事情？部長，就以您自己的書來看，如果你自己的100本出版品原本在電子書平臺可以賣得很好，但是它變成了電子書，計次借閱無上限，而且你們沒有檢討機制，我現在問的是連檢討機制都沒有，我們要如何信任這個政策？到底是在幫忙出版業者，還是在戕害出版業者，讓它逐漸走向死亡？"],["李部長遠：這是兩難，因為當初我們用實體書做借閱效果不好，改成電子書，可是這個東西反過來又變成大家在市場上不買書，我覺得這是非常矛盾的。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是會不會是我們這個政策造成大家不要去買書？"],["李部長遠：所以我說很多政策以為是幫助，結果後來效果更不好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們不能去指責消費者，可是就像我講的，光是我們臺灣自己的公立圖書館在買斷電子書的部分也受到影響。假如這個政策有一天落日了、離開了檯面上，原本電子書進圖書館買斷這個事情，你們難道還要再回復嗎？預算要再補回去嗎？看起來沒有通盤的檢討，不管是to C或者是to原來圖書館這個部分，都受到非常大的影響，甚至出現我剛剛說那個完全名不見經傳的出版社，它到底是透過什麼樣的點擊程式去造成這樣的借閱率，難道我們不用考慮嗎？甚至點擊率的排行榜這件事情，我們去問了原本在賣電子書的不管是Kobo也好、Readmoo也好、或是其他的電子書平臺，這些書原本過去一、兩年在他們的平臺上銷售都不到百本，但是為什麼它在電子書計次借閱平臺卻造成這個局面？我相信這不是部長來自出版界、您身為出版人所樂見的。部長可不可以更積極來看這件事情……"],["李部長遠：好，我想……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們到底還能做哪些事情？你們的通盤檢討到底什麼時候才要出來？1個月內可以出來通盤檢討的事情嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們儘快檢討委員剛才講的這幾個辦法……"],["陳委員培瑜：1個月內，因為我剛剛說我1月問你們，你們說要通盤檢討，業界也說要給大家時間，但是到現在10月了，已經過去9個月，我還是沒有看到檢討；然後你們給我們的回復告訴我們無法檢討，無法盤點這個政策到底是好還是不好，難以直接評估。部長，9個月了，我覺得這對出版業者非常地不公平！更何況很多的戲劇、很多的電影腳本原本的發想、IP是來自出版產業，我相信部長你一定明白。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：1個月內。再來，部長，我在總質詢的時候提到用閱讀對抗3C這件事情，或者是我一再告訴教育部，用閱讀作為學習方法，是這個世代我們大人必須要陪孩子一起面對的事情。其實大部分的青少年都認為閱讀對他們是有意義的，可是實際上在日常生活非常難以做到，我相信部長一定知道功課壓力是很大的原因。我們也都知道閱讀有助於培養同理心等等的好處，這些都知道，但是文化部到底對於青少年閱讀這件事情，可不可以有更積極的做法？不管是從0歲到18歲，文化部跟教育部、衛福部都必須各自承擔不同的角色。甚至這兩天大家在看日本NHK的紀錄片裡面談到假訊息、機器人，我們人腦難道不能對抗機器人嗎？而對於這些假資訊的思辨批判能力，不就是要從閱讀培養嗎？部長，你如何看待這件事情？"],["李部長遠：委員，你講的這件事情，我覺得非常重要，而且我來之後，現在才5個月，我就做了很多，很努力地去改變，一個就是我們必須讓小朋友有更好看的書，包括漫畫或者繪本，所以我推出一個繪本的計畫……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我知道部長，但是我時間有限……"],["李部長遠：我們舉辦了兒少書展，大概過去也沒有辦過，然後文化幣下修等等這些計畫，我覺得我應該去找到教育部跟衛福部，我們共同來研議一個更有效的方法。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，我提出類型小說，因為臺灣的類型小說這幾年的發展也面臨很大的困境，甚至他們自己相關的業者、相關的創作者、社群都還自己辦了獎項，沒有跟文化部合作，因為在文化部的眼中，類型小說好像不是一個有意義的事情。我從青少年的閱讀到剛剛各個部會必須要跨部會閱讀，到踩進臺灣出版的品項，類型小說可能會是一個解方，所以這個部分也要拜託部長。你剛剛說跨部會的會議，我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，可是對於類型文學創作的獎補助或者是臺灣相關創作者團體的支持，我覺得文化部可以更有角色、更加積極，也要拜託文化部1個月內給我們相關規劃報告，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那跨部會的會議，我們辦公室也會主動召開……"],["李部長遠：OK。"],["陳委員培瑜：會跟文化部、教育部、衛福部積極用閱讀對抗假訊息，我覺得這件事情再不做真的來不及了，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實對我來講，這是滿重要的，我們努力……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我想非常地重要。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來我們有請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","吳春城","范雲","陳菁徽","楊瓊瓔","徐富癸","郭國文","王鴻薇","陳亭妃","林楚茵","何欣純","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴惠員","涂權吉","高金素梅"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00005"}}}