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對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 175.06, \"end\": 175.16, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 175.16, \"end\": 175.28, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 175.28, \"end\": 175.42, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 175.42, \"end\": 175.56, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 175.56, \"end\": 175.7, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 175.7, \"end\": 175.861, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 175.861, \"end\": 175.961, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 175.961, \"end\": 176.541, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 176.541, \"end\": 176.681, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 176.681, \"end\": 177.061, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 177.061, \"end\": 177.221, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 185.526, \"end\": 186.027, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 186.027, \"end\": 186.667, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"排\", \"start\": 186.667, \"end\": 186.867, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 186.867, \"end\": 187.047, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 187.047, \"end\": 187.528, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 187.528, \"end\": 187.868, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 187.868, \"end\": 189.229, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 189.229, \"end\": 189.469, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 189.469, \"end\": 189.769, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"渡\", \"start\": 189.769, \"end\": 189.929, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"措\", \"start\": 189.929, \"end\": 190.129, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"施\", 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\"end\": 203.417, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 203.417, \"end\": 203.777, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 203.777, \"end\": 203.857, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 203.857, \"end\": 203.877, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 205.018, \"end\": 213.823, \"text\": \"因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 205.018, \"end\": 205.198, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 205.198, \"end\": 205.538, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 205.538, \"end\": 205.738, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 205.738, \"end\": 205.939, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 205.939, \"end\": 206.119, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 206.119, \"end\": 206.319, 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215.22, \"end\": 237.432, \"text\": \"跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 215.22, \"end\": 215.36, \"score\": 0.534}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 215.36, \"end\": 215.64, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 215.64, \"end\": 215.92, \"score\": 0.722}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 215.92, \"end\": 216.141, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 216.141, \"end\": 216.501, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 216.501, \"end\": 216.601, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 216.601, \"end\": 216.721, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 216.721, \"end\": 216.921, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 216.921, \"end\": 217.061, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 217.061, \"end\": 217.261, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 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00:01:06,248\n那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費\n\n4\n00:01:07,528 --> 00:01:28,278\n那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以對不對?那可是你提到一個說,因為整個碳費徵收狀態它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是?\n\n5\n00:01:29,458 --> 00:01:49,765\n對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會這個常駐在歐盟那溝通可能會比較直接或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行的CBAM．你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣\n\n6\n00:01:50,265 --> 00:02:00,033\n因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛對不對所以在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊\n\n7\n00:02:09,701 --> 00:02:26,588\n所以我在當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例\n\n8\n00:02:27,648 --> 00:02:47,977\n在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%非常非常的高所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的然後你這邊提到說在三種情況之下的時候呢它會盪到1.14%到2.95%第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對\n\n9\n00:02:55,060 --> 00:03:23,877\n然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通\n\n10\n00:03:25,018 --> 00:03:33,823\n因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分\n\n11\n00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:57,432\n跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報\n\n12\n00:03:58,112 --> 00:04:04,921\n二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品\n\n13\n00:04:13,496 --> 00:04:19,959\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n\n14\n00:04:42,490 --> 00:04:59,037\n三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍\n\n15\n00:05:06,192 --> 00:05:11,416\n臺電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說臺灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候臺灣現在的電價是最高的了\n\n16\n00:05:28,968 --> 00:05:29,188\n臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度\n\n17\n00:05:51,141 --> 00:05:51,961\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n\n18\n00:06:16,354 --> 00:06:34,074\n那算起來整個台積電的時候就會有1238萬噸的吸收度的排放量如果一噸300塊來說就是超過37億元的一個成本那我要講這個部分的時候是我想特別去問一下次長就是\n\n19\n00:06:35,851 --> 00:07:02,102\n我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嗎我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範\n\n20\n00:07:03,208 --> 00:07:23,445\n只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是\n\n21\n00:07:24,045 --> 00:07:51,369\n都不算齁所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛齁那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在齁就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外齁還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟\n\n22\n00:07:51,789 --> 00:07:53,749\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n\n23\n00:08:16,394 --> 00:08:40,911\n碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分\n\n24\n00:08:41,571 --> 00:09:03,391\n我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝鄭任前委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8894\t14470\t呃,謝謝主席,我想請一下經濟部連次長,還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。\n21304\t38114\t非常感謝這次主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃\n39355\t66248\t那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費\n67528\t88278\t那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以對不對?那可是你提到一個說,因為整個碳費徵收狀態它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是?\n89458\t109765\t對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會這個常駐在歐盟那溝通可能會比較直接或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行的CBAM．你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣\n110265\t120033\t因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛對不對所以在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊\n129701\t146588\t所以我在當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例\n147648\t167977\t在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%非常非常的高所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的然後你這邊提到說在三種情況之下的時候呢它會盪到1.14%到2.95%第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對\n175060\t203877\t然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊 對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通\n205018\t213823\t因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分\n215220\t237432\t跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報\n238112\t244921\t二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品\n253496\t259959\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n282490\t299037\t三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍\n306192\t311416\t臺電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說臺灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候臺灣現在的電價是最高的了\n328968\t329188\t臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度\n351141\t351961\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n376354\t394074\t那算起來整個台積電的時候就會有1238萬噸的吸收度的排放量如果一噸300塊來說就是超過37億元的一個成本那我要講這個部分的時候是我想特別去問一下次長就是\n395851\t422102\t我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嗎我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範\n423208\t443445\t只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是\n444045\t471369\t都不算齁所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛齁那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在齁就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外齁還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟\n471789\t473749\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n496394\t520911\t碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分\n521571\t543391\t我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝鄭任前委員\n","txt":"呃,謝謝主席,我想請一下經濟部連次長,還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。\n非常感謝這次主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃\n那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費\n那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以對不對?那可是你提到一個說,因為整個碳費徵收狀態它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是?\n對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會這個常駐在歐盟那溝通可能會比較直接或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行的CBAM．你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣\n因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛對不對所以在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊\n所以我在當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例\n在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%非常非常的高所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的然後你這邊提到說在三種情況之下的時候呢它會盪到1.14%到2.95%第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對\n然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊 對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通\n因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分\n跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報\n二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍\n臺電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說臺灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候臺灣現在的電價是最高的了\n臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n那算起來整個台積電的時候就會有1238萬噸的吸收度的排放量如果一噸300塊來說就是超過37億元的一個成本那我要講這個部分的時候是我想特別去問一下次長就是\n我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嗎我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範\n只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是\n都不算齁所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛齁那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在齁就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外齁還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分\n我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝鄭任前委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.894 --> 00:14.470\n呃,謝謝主席,我想請一下經濟部連次長,還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。\n\n00:21.304 --> 00:38.114\n非常感謝這次主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃\n\n00:39.355 --> 01:06.248\n那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費\n\n01:07.528 --> 01:28.278\n那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以對不對?那可是你提到一個說,因為整個碳費徵收狀態它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是?\n\n01:29.458 --> 01:49.765\n對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會這個常駐在歐盟那溝通可能會比較直接或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行的CBAM．你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣\n\n01:50.265 --> 02:00.033\n因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛對不對所以在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊\n\n02:09.701 --> 02:26.588\n所以我在當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例\n\n02:27.648 --> 02:47.977\n在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%非常非常的高所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的然後你這邊提到說在三種情況之下的時候呢它會盪到1.14%到2.95%第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對\n\n02:55.060 --> 03:23.877\n然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通\n\n03:25.018 --> 03:33.823\n因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分\n\n03:35.220 --> 03:57.432\n跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報\n\n03:58.112 --> 04:04.921\n二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品\n\n04:13.496 --> 04:19.959\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n\n04:42.490 --> 04:59.037\n三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍\n\n05:06.192 --> 05:11.416\n臺電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說臺灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候臺灣現在的電價是最高的了\n\n05:28.968 --> 05:29.188\n臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度\n\n05:51.141 --> 05:51.961\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．\n\n06:16.354 --> 06:34.074\n那算起來整個台積電的時候就會有1238萬噸的吸收度的排放量如果一噸300塊來說就是超過37億元的一個成本那我要講這個部分的時候是我想特別去問一下次長就是\n\n06:35.851 --> 07:02.102\n我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嗎我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範\n\n07:03.208 --> 07:23.445\n只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是\n\n07:24.045 --> 07:51.369\n都不算齁所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛齁那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在齁就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外齁還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟\n\n07:51.789 --> 07:53.749\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n\n08:16.394 --> 08:40.911\n碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分\n\n08:41.571 --> 09:03.391\n我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝鄭任前委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.894,"end":14.47,"text":"呃,謝謝主席,我想請一下經濟部連次長,還有環境部的施次長。經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。"},{"start":21.304,"end":38.114,"text":"非常感謝這次主席召委今天安排了我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估然後一個非常重要而且非常新而且正在持續發展當中然後還沒有完善的一個主題那我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的一個規劃"},{"start":39.355,"end":66.248,"text":"那我覺得這個我想就是跟碳有關這個問題它不只是一個環境政策的問題它也是一個貿易政策所以說其實我剛剛有聽到施次長這邊有特別提到說我們CBAM臺灣現在在推CBAM那歐盟2026要開始實施對不對那他們的CBAM憑證他開始2026就要具體去用了那我們明年要開始徵收那個碳費"},{"start":67.528,"end":88.278,"text":"那碳費這個部分的時候,台灣的碳費這部分是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分?你剛剛提到說可以對不對?那可是你提到一個說,因為整個碳費徵收狀態它有很多複雜的程序要做,很多方法論的問題,然後你提到說我們明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去,去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是?"},{"start":89.458,"end":109.765,"text":"對,因為其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道那明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會這個常駐在歐盟那溝通可能會比較直接或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的在執行的CBAM．你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣"},{"start":110.265,"end":120.033,"text":"因為歐盟他現在對於出口國的碳費要怎麼出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣他的法律規則還沒出來還沒出來嘛對不對所以在溝通當中因為我在想說我們一噸收300塊標準收300塊可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4000塊"},{"start":129.701,"end":146.588,"text":"所以我在當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題那我這邊的時候我先針對就是環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料還有造成五大行業為例"},{"start":147.648,"end":167.977,"text":"在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下碳費會佔行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%非常非常的高所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的然後你這邊提到說在三種情況之下的時候呢它會盪到1.14%到2.95%第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對"},{"start":175.06,"end":203.877,"text":"然後第二個部分就是說提到說是用那個優惠費率用B的方案來做一公噸一百塊 對不對第三個部分你提到說高碳洩漏風險行業排放量的調整係數那這些過渡措施那就0.2、0.4、0.6這部分來做那我想提一個狀態就是說我們自己國內這邊的這些具體做法的時候那跟國際的貿易政策當中的時候要怎麼樣去溝通"},{"start":205.018,"end":213.823,"text":"因為我們這樣算下來的時候可能會更低嘛不管是50塊或100塊你要怎麼去抵這個歐盟的CBAM這部分的時候它就是一個很重要的一個部分"},{"start":215.22,"end":237.432,"text":"跟委員報告兩件事第一件事情就是歐盟他承認的這個可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度所以碳交所上面的這個碳權是不能夠拿來遞歐盟的CBAM這一點跟委員報告那第二個就是說因為歐盟的這個202他現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的神報"},{"start":238.112,"end":244.921,"text":"二零二六年正式繳那二零二六年正式繳的這個初期因為歐盟境內自己還有免費配額所以一開始呢他會扣掉他現在百分之百的這個免費配額的這個配額他才會要求進口產品"},{"start":253.496,"end":259.959,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":282.49,"end":299.037,"text":"三百八十幾家公司五百多個廠當中有很多跟新竹都有關那比方說我這邊有聽到臺電臺積電他們的法說會特別提到這三年漲了四次的電漲了四次電的時候呢相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候他們的電費漲了1.92倍"},{"start":306.192,"end":311.416,"text":"臺電出來做了一些捍衛的動作他就提到說臺灣的電價其實並不高相較於其他國家都相對高可是台積電的說法是說在他們在對外的這幾個廠當中的時候臺灣現在的電價是最高的了"},{"start":328.968,"end":329.188,"text":"臺積電去年的用電量是247.75億度"},{"start":351.141,"end":351.961,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．"},{"start":376.354,"end":394.074,"text":"那算起來整個台積電的時候就會有1238萬噸的吸收度的排放量如果一噸300塊來說就是超過37億元的一個成本那我要講這個部分的時候是我想特別去問一下次長就是"},{"start":395.851,"end":422.102,"text":"我們現在齁所有的電廠齁因為電力法裡面有要求就是電廠受電的時候電廠要有電力排放係數要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求嗎我想知道現在所有台灣的電廠的時候他們的電力排放的係數是多少每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎因為我們現在法令規範只有規範台電其他其他廠家沒有規範"},{"start":423.208,"end":443.445,"text":"只有規範臺電是不是?因為臺電佔的總量太大了所以只有規範因為我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合因為電業法裡面是公用售電費都要符合可是我們目前只限制臺電是這個意思嗎?因為它叫做公用售電業那其他的電廠他們都不算公用售電?不是"},{"start":444.045,"end":471.369,"text":"都不算齁所以說我們目前以這個基準來說的時候就是約束台電嘛齁那我要特別講到一個狀態就是說以我們現在齁就是台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候然後就表示說除了水電之外齁還有技術人才等等的問題我要講的情況是電的成本不斷的提高那當我們現在碳費再加進來雖然說我們有直接排放量跟"},{"start":471.789,"end":473.749,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":496.394,"end":520.911,"text":"碳關稅的評估作業在符合WTO的規範和我國產業前提之下是一種有別於歐盟的CBAM的機制那這個部分經濟部這邊有沒有具體的一個想法有別於歐盟的CBAM的一個機制因為我們目前的想法是說本來那個因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內那如果是進口可以一起扣的話那等於是在競爭競爭力這一部分"},{"start":521.571,"end":543.391,"text":"我們是相對是站在一個比較公平的一個角度所以說這一部分是不是說要請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到我在想說因為碳費這邊是一個持續進行中的一個部分我希望經濟部還有環境部這一邊包括財政部這一邊所以有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員做一個報告謝謝謝謝鄭任前委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時41分）謝謝主席，我想請教經濟部連次長以及環境部施次長。"],["主席：請經濟部連次長、環境部施次長。"],["鄭委員正鈐：非常感謝召委今天安排我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊的影響評估，這是一個非常重要、非常新，而且正在持續發展當中，然後還沒有完善的一個主題，有關我國碳邊境調整機制CBAM推動的規劃，我想跟碳有關的問題不只是一個環境政策的問題，它也是一個貿易政策，我剛剛有聽到施次長特別提到臺灣現在在推CBAM，歐盟2026年要開始實施對不對？他們的CBAM憑證從2026年就要開始具體去用了，我們明年要開始徵收碳費，臺灣的碳費是不是可以抵免歐盟這部分？你剛剛提到說可以對不對？"],["施次長文真：對，這可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，可是因為整個碳費徵收的狀態有很多複雜的程序要做，有很多方法論的問題，然後你提到明年環境部才要派一個人到歐盟去溝通一下查驗機制的問題是不是？"],["施次長文真：對，其實我們長期都已經有透過雙邊的管道，明年是環境部正式有一個外派的人員會長駐在歐盟，溝通可能會比較直接，或者比較能夠快速掌握他們一些新的、在執行CBAM的法案。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你說我們的碳費300塊都可以抵免，還是說還會經過怎麼樣的機制可能會有折扣？"],["施次長文真：歐盟現在對於出口國已經繳的錢要怎麼抵扣的法律規則還沒出來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還沒出來嘛，對不對？所以還在溝通當中。"],["施次長文真：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我們一噸收300塊，可是現在掛在碳權交易所當中是一噸4,000塊，所以我覺得當中肯定有很多的部分會很嚴重影響到企業接下來會碰到的一些問題，我先針對環境部在報告第7頁當中所提到的，就是以水泥、鋼鐵、煉油、基本化學材料、造紙五大行業為例，在一般費率每公噸300元的情況之下，碳費會占行業平均毛利率的15.49%到43.04%，非常非常高，所以碳費對於整個產業的影響肯定是非常大的。然後這邊提到在三種情況之下它會降到1.14%到2.95%，第一個是產業執行自主減量的計畫達到目標，但這部分是經濟部這邊在做對不對？第二個部分就提到適用優惠費率用B的方案來做，一公噸100塊對不對？"],["施次長文真：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：第三個部分提到高碳洩漏風險行業排放量調整係數的過渡措施，以0.2、0.4、0.6的方式來做，我想提一個狀態就是我們自己國內這些具體的作法跟國際的貿易政策要怎麼樣去溝通？因為我們這樣算下來可能會更低，不管是50塊或100塊，你要怎麼去抵歐盟的CBAM，這就是很重要的一個部分。"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告兩件事，第一件事情就是歐盟它承認的可以扣的碳價是碳稅費的制度或是總量管制跟交易的制度，所以碳交所上面的碳權是不能夠拿來抵歐盟的CBAM，這一點先跟委員報告。第二個，因為歐盟現在已經開始做產品進口碳含量的申報，2026年正式繳，在2026年正式繳的初期，因為歐盟自己境內還有免費配額，所以一開始它也會扣掉它現在百分之百的免費配額，才要求進口產品繳納，所以初期這個負擔並不會很重。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["施次長文真：因為它的法條是說實際在出口國支付的碳價，所以委員剛剛提到……"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，因為這個部分其實是在發展當中，隨時在變動的狀態，所以我希望有任何新的訊息，都給本席辦公室一份完整的資料，好不好？"],["施次長文真：好，沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：關於歐盟這邊的相關資料，我想我們目前一年排碳量2.5萬公噸的那387家公司、五百多個廠當中，有很多跟新竹都有關。比方說我這邊有聽到，台積電的法說會特別提到，這三年漲了4次電價，相較於2022年之前還沒有漲電價的時候，他們的電費漲了1.92倍，非常非常地高，我看到他們在提出這個部分的時候，台電出來做了一些捍衛的動作，它提到臺灣的電價其實並不高，其他國家相對高，可是台積電的說法是，他們在這幾個廠當中，臺灣現在的電價是最高的。針對這個部分，因為我們到時候的直接排放源當中，台積電的用電量其實是高的，所以在這邊可能就會直接被課他們的碳費，肯定是這樣子。我在這邊稍微算了一下，台積電去年的用電量是247.75億度，非常地高，如果按照現在台電所提供出來的電力排碳係數，連次長，你知道去年台電這邊平均的電力排碳係數是多少嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：0.494。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那算起來整個台積電就會有1,238萬噸CO2的排放量，如果以1噸300塊來說，就是超過37億元的成本，這個部分我想特別問一下次長，就是我們現在所有的電廠，因為電業法裡面有要求電廠售電的時候，要符合電力排放係數基準的一個要求，我想知道現在臺灣所有的電廠電力排放係數是多少？每一家都符合這個電力排放係數嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：因為我們現在法令只有規範台電，其他廠家沒有規範。"],["鄭委員正鈐：只有規範台電是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：對，因為台電占的總量太大了，所以只有規範……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我看到的是公用售電業都必須要符合，因為電業法裡面是公用售電業都要符合，可是我們目前只限制台電，是這個意思嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：因為它叫做公用售電業。"],["鄭委員正鈐：其他的電廠都不算公用售電業？"],["連次長錦漳：不是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都不算喔？OK，所以我們目前以這個基準來說的時候，就只約束台電嘛。我要特別講到一個狀態，就是現在台電在回應台積電這個說法的時候表示，除了水電之外，還有技術人才等等問題，我要講的情況是，電的成本不斷地提高，當我們現在碳費再加進來，雖然我們有直接排放量跟間接排放量，只有三成的部分可能到時候會併在台電成本裡頭，可是對於企業成本肯定也是必須要去考量的，所以我希望經濟部這邊，因為你的報告第5頁提到，針對臺灣在執行CBAM的部分，你希望可以先啟動對高碳洩漏風險進口產品實施類似碳關稅的評估作業，在符合WTO規範和我國產業的前提之下，設計一種有別於歐盟的CBAM機制，這個部分經濟部有沒有一個具體的想法，有別於歐盟的CBAM機制？"],["連次長錦漳：我們目前的想法是，因為現在國內的碳費只有課國內，如果進口可以一起課的話，等於在競爭力這一部分，我們相對是站在一個比較公平的角度，所以這一部分是不是請財政部跟環境部在研議的時候要去考慮到……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為碳費是一個持續進行中的部分，我希望經濟部、環境部還有財政部，有任何新的部分隨時都要跟本委員會做一個報告，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，次長請回座。","報告委員會，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：我們繼續開會。","下一位請我們召委，邱志偉主席發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}}