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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 791.272, \"end\": 791.312, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 791.312, \"end\": 791.413, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 791.413, \"end\": 791.433, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 791.433, \"end\": 791.473, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 791.473, \"end\": 791.493, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,570 --> 00:00:07,885\n謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局\n\n2\n00:00:14,634 --> 00:00:43,481\n是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以\n\n3\n00:00:44,381 --> 00:01:04,894\n去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從\n\n4\n00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:23,577\n我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是\n\n5\n00:01:24,929 --> 00:01:37,827\n在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部\n\n6\n00:01:39,537 --> 00:01:58,389\n是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況\n\n7\n00:02:00,070 --> 00:02:16,645\n部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜\n\n8\n00:02:17,085 --> 00:02:28,935\n而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法檢查機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中\n\n9\n00:02:31,069 --> 00:02:55,512\n好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是\n\n10\n00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:28,744\n這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕啊\n\n11\n00:03:29,184 --> 00:03:37,790\n那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎\n\n12\n00:03:47,017 --> 00:04:10,588\n又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長\n\n13\n00:04:12,781 --> 00:04:36,920\n我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行任職作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在\n\n14\n00:04:38,241 --> 00:05:03,146\n我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了\n\n15\n00:05:05,806 --> 00:05:21,791\n國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好部長請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役\n\n16\n00:05:22,991 --> 00:05:33,217\n這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣\n\n17\n00:05:49,147 --> 00:05:53,889\n還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資\n\n18\n00:06:18,618 --> 00:06:44,373\n那目前全國師資一共有多少這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員全民國防教育\n\n19\n00:06:47,134 --> 00:07:01,777\n相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席\n\n20\n00:07:15,827 --> 00:07:19,249\n本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標來\n\n21\n00:07:36,756 --> 00:08:01,896\n進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案你去打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是\n\n22\n00:08:06,540 --> 00:08:28,054\n公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋\n\n23\n00:08:29,375 --> 00:08:41,781\n如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長\n\n24\n00:08:49,582 --> 00:09:11,958\n關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是\n\n25\n00:09:13,379 --> 00:09:23,268\n所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施\n\n26\n00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:58,954\n所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道車子只要是\n\n27\n00:10:00,657 --> 00:10:24,133\n聯動上網、車聯網我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士\n\n28\n00:10:25,314 --> 00:10:52,994\n現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新的工具呢孫副局長\n\n29\n00:10:56,248 --> 00:11:18,515\n委員好是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態調查局持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有例的偵辦好所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎\n\n30\n00:11:19,611 --> 00:11:34,149\n我們會努力後面有點頭欸沒有嗎會努力還是後續會去了解就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現\n\n31\n00:11:36,512 --> 00:11:54,133\n在這個義南當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件\n\n32\n00:11:56,055 --> 00:12:09,772\n本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的\n\n33\n00:12:12,635 --> 00:12:34,420\n三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題\n\n34\n00:12:40,882 --> 00:13:04,928\n但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BB扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告\n\n35\n00:13:11,192 --> 00:13:11,493\n法務委員一個禮拜可以給報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n570\t7885\t謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局\n14634\t43481\t是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以\n44381\t64894\t去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從\n67820\t83577\t我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是\n84929\t97827\t在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部\n99537\t118389\t是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況\n120070\t136645\t部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜\n137085\t148935\t而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法檢查機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中\n151069\t175512\t好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是\n180400\t208744\t這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕啊\n209184\t217790\t那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎\n227017\t250588\t又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長\n252781\t276920\t我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行任職作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在\n278241\t303146\t我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了\n305806\t321791\t國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好 部長請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役\n322991\t333217\t這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣\n349147\t353889\t還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分 署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資\n378618\t404373\t那目前全國師資一共有多少這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員全民國防教育\n407134\t421777\t相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有 而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席\n435827\t439249\t本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標來\n456756\t481896\t進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案你去打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是\n486540\t508054\t公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋\n509375\t521781\t如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長\n529582\t551958\t關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是\n553379\t563268\t所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施\n578280\t598954\t所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道車子只要是\n600657\t624133\t聯動上網、車聯網我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士\n625314\t652994\t現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新的工具呢孫副局長\n656248\t678515\t委員好 是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態調查局持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有例的偵辦好 所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎\n679611\t694149\t我們會努力後面有點頭欸沒有嗎會努力還是後續會去了解就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現\n696512\t714133\t在這個義南當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件\n716055\t729772\t本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的\n732635\t754420\t三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題\n760882\t784928\t但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BB扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告\n791192\t791493\t法務委員一個禮拜可以給報告\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局\n是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以\n去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從\n我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是\n在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部\n是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況\n部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜\n而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法檢查機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中\n好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是\n這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕啊\n那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎\n又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長\n我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行任職作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在\n我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了\n國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好 部長請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役\n這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣\n還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分 署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資\n那目前全國師資一共有多少這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員全民國防教育\n相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有 而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席\n本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標來\n進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案你去打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是\n公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋\n如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長\n關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是\n所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施\n所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道車子只要是\n聯動上網、車聯網我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士\n現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新的工具呢孫副局長\n委員好 是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態調查局持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有例的偵辦好 所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎\n我們會努力後面有點頭欸沒有嗎會努力還是後續會去了解就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現\n在這個義南當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件\n本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的\n三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題\n但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BB扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告\n法務委員一個禮拜可以給報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.570 --> 00:07.885\n謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局\n\n00:14.634 --> 00:43.481\n是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以\n\n00:44.381 --> 01:04.894\n去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從\n\n01:07.820 --> 01:23.577\n我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是\n\n01:24.929 --> 01:37.827\n在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部\n\n01:39.537 --> 01:58.389\n是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況\n\n02:00.070 --> 02:16.645\n部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜\n\n02:17.085 --> 02:28.935\n而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法檢查機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中\n\n02:31.069 --> 02:55.512\n好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是\n\n03:00.400 --> 03:28.744\n這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕啊\n\n03:29.184 --> 03:37.790\n那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎\n\n03:47.017 --> 04:10.588\n又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長\n\n04:12.781 --> 04:36.920\n我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行任職作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在\n\n04:38.241 --> 05:03.146\n我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了\n\n05:05.806 --> 05:21.791\n國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好部長請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役\n\n05:22.991 --> 05:33.217\n這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣\n\n05:49.147 --> 05:53.889\n還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資\n\n06:18.618 --> 06:44.373\n那目前全國師資一共有多少這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員全民國防教育\n\n06:47.134 --> 07:01.777\n相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席\n\n07:15.827 --> 07:19.249\n本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標來\n\n07:36.756 --> 08:01.896\n進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案你去打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是\n\n08:06.540 --> 08:28.054\n公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋\n\n08:29.375 --> 08:41.781\n如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長\n\n08:49.582 --> 09:11.958\n關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是\n\n09:13.379 --> 09:23.268\n所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施\n\n09:38.280 --> 09:58.954\n所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道車子只要是\n\n10:00.657 --> 10:24.133\n聯動上網、車聯網我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士\n\n10:25.314 --> 10:52.994\n現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新的工具呢孫副局長\n\n10:56.248 --> 11:18.515\n委員好是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態調查局持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有例的偵辦好所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎\n\n11:19.611 --> 11:34.149\n我們會努力後面有點頭欸沒有嗎會努力還是後續會去了解就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現\n\n11:36.512 --> 11:54.133\n在這個義南當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件\n\n11:56.055 --> 12:09.772\n本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的\n\n12:12.635 --> 12:34.420\n三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題\n\n12:40.882 --> 13:04.928\n但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BB扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告\n\n13:11.192 --> 13:11.493\n法務委員一個禮拜可以給報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.57,"end":7.885,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請國防部顧部長請顧部長安全局黃副局長、國安局"},{"start":14.634,"end":43.481,"text":"是另一位好兩位好主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍對於我們透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰術然後如果來進行封鎖台灣的時候相關的國安危機以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵的技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖我想這個是非常重要的命題不過通常是這樣外部勢力如果對台進行封鎖我們可以"},{"start":44.381,"end":64.894,"text":"去考量到底多少天然後我們可以撐多久但是最怕的是什麼理應外合啊如果內部有人搞破壞有人知道了這些訊息這些資訊把它洩露出去那我覺得才是更恐怖的所以前面的這些委員垂行過的題目我不講我反而希望是從"},{"start":67.82,"end":83.577,"text":"我們從國防部的報告有特別提到就是在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後其實是要做跨部會的整合那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面最怕的就是"},{"start":84.929,"end":97.827,"text":"在國內也就是在台灣是有透過內應的力量在跨部會的整合當中部長還有副局長今天局長沒有來那麼我們在內部"},{"start":99.537,"end":118.389,"text":"是不是過去曾經林中斌有說啦當年就已經講中國對台不見已成那麼在這個所謂的整合當中目前對台的內應的力量在台內部內應的力量是什麼樣一個狀況"},{"start":120.07,"end":136.645,"text":"部長或是副局長都可以謝謝委員那委員垂醒的在台的內應力量確實是有存在那這個我們大家都有掌搜國安團隊都有掌搜"},{"start":137.085,"end":148.935,"text":"而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範我們會請我們國安團隊包括調查局、縣指部等還有警政署等司法檢查機關立案來做一個偵辦那現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中"},{"start":151.069,"end":175.512,"text":"好我就怕偵辦這個過程也會洩露出去其實為什麼會特別請部長上來顧部長上來原因是因為全民防衛這個過去在兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜人人有責啦但是現在是當全民防衛的時候卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎因為我要強調的是"},{"start":180.4,"end":208.744,"text":"這兩天發生的新聞一個是發生在台中台中呢載著這些義男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片然後呢在台北市替代役的叫招當中也放了抖音的影片而且還宣稱中國很強很厲害甚至於在剛剛幾個質詢當中我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊中國很可怕啊"},{"start":209.184,"end":217.79,"text":"那像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在還是說它只是偶發的事件為什麼會這麼巧在載著義南的司機上面那我們只處罰司機、隨車人員但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎"},{"start":227.017,"end":250.588,"text":"又或者是說在台北市替代役的叫召當中你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣滅自我威風像這樣的狀況他到底是偶發還是說他已經有系統性的滲入台灣甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中是資資不足還是事實上已經被滲透部長"},{"start":252.781,"end":276.92,"text":"我想我的看法就是說我們一定要全國能夠團結然後要建立敵我意識這個是很重要的所以就這個部分剛剛感覺到遺憾那中國對我們的滲透跟進行任職作戰這個是相當綿密而廣泛的所以這些部分的存在"},{"start":278.241,"end":303.146,"text":"我們的民主社會當中呢一定會被當然有一個好處它就是會被揭發出來那揭發出來之後呢我們就要用這個我們大家的一個團結的一個力量來說明說像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰那這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責然後讓它不要再發生那剛剛講了"},{"start":305.806,"end":321.791,"text":"國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握好 部長請問一下現在做全民防衛的教育的師資是哪裡來那麼是由國防部或權動署來做統籌嗎因為我必須講今天不論是台中義南這個事情又或者是台北市替代役"},{"start":322.991,"end":333.217,"text":"這台中市跟台北市這兩個案件是因為在現場不論是替代義男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁啊我今天是來這裡做教召或者是我來做講座結果發現整場沒有給我正確的傳達的正確的應該是全民動員的資訊反而是在長他人志氣滅自我威風但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣"},{"start":349.147,"end":353.889,"text":"還是說其實各縣市政府在做這樣的委辦事項的時候是有一種就是敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢在這個部分 署長有關我們全民防衛全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責所以它區分到這一個社會教育那近期我們這個也都有辦這個全國性的講習來這個培育相關師資"},{"start":378.618,"end":404.373,"text":"那目前全國師資一共有多少這因為在政戰局那邊所以我再跟他提供給委員另外一個還有一個就是所謂學校教育那也是由政戰局我們有跟大專業校合作來專門來培育所有學校教育的師資他有一套的系統那我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告那有關這個地方所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂的全民動員全民國防教育"},{"start":407.134,"end":421.777,"text":"相關的講師、師資的時候是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓甚至於他該怎麼講想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎有 而且有教材好所以目前師資的狀況跟是否充足的部分是不是會後就交給我們國防外交委員會跟本席"},{"start":435.827,"end":439.249,"text":"本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是第一架切可搶標來"},{"start":456.756,"end":481.896,"text":"進入台灣市場。」那麼我想這種所謂透過跟台灣的代理商合作然後從中國車變身台灣車然後進而低價搶標政府機關這個包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府其實我都希望能夠去注意包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案你去打開來看就會發現中國車已經變身了台灣車但是"},{"start":486.54,"end":508.054,"text":"公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府重要的官員至於公共汽車呢我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷同樣的回到我剛開始的命題就是就怕外面進攻我們守得住但是從裡面裡應外合我們就無法擋"},{"start":509.375,"end":521.781,"text":"如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類的話提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統例如公路系統所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施請問黃副局長"},{"start":529.582,"end":551.958,"text":"關鍵具有設施來講它是設施的定義我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備它的產能能跟我們生活息息相關的這種所以你如果說是固定的那我就教一下那高速鐵路啦或是公車或者是"},{"start":553.379,"end":563.268,"text":"所謂的火車所以這些都不算基礎設施只有鐵軌才算是這個意思嗎所以公路、路算公車不算副局長你要確定你的定義喔國家關鍵基礎設施的定義是剛剛講的那個是車站是界定航空站港口這個都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":578.28,"end":598.954,"text":"所以現在是以硬體為主所以說一台公車在全國的境內啪啪走如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈它不算是關鍵基礎設施包括國安單位包括調查局要去了解的嗎因為我們現在都知道車子只要是"},{"start":600.657,"end":624.133,"text":"聯動上網、車聯網我們買中國貨它隨時可以從外部來做干預來做啟動這是非常危險的一個狀況不要忘了BB扣都可以爆炸更何況是一台移動在我們全國境內的公共汽車我會這樣講我不是空穴來風喔包括桃園的電動巴士"},{"start":625.314,"end":652.994,"text":"現在燒起來了運安會說什麼這個電池可能跟中國有關台中又是台中電動公車暗夜起火那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎為什麼請孫副局長上來是因為調查局有沒有去了解這到底只是個案還是部件已成、內應已成把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新的工具呢孫副局長"},{"start":656.248,"end":678.515,"text":"委員好 是有關中共對台灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態調查局持續的了解那我們去年也針對不同的領域中共的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦很多案件那關於委員剛剛指教的這些問題我們也會加強去進一步的了解目前還是還沒有例的偵辦好 所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎"},{"start":679.611,"end":694.149,"text":"我們會努力後面有點頭欸沒有嗎會努力還是後續會去了解就是說我們對於各種違安的徵後我們都會陸陸續續掌握副局長為什麼會這樣講是因為很奇怪喔這個只要發現"},{"start":696.512,"end":714.133,"text":"在這個義南當中他們或者是替代役或者是全民動員相關的案例的時候好多縣市都出現然後看到基隆公車燒起來了桃園也有電動巴士燒台中也有電動巴士燒奇怪了那這到底是發生了什麼事這樣的事件"},{"start":716.055,"end":729.772,"text":"本身背後有沒有跟中國有關是不是有內應有關這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會撼動人心我想在場的兩位都清楚啊國防我們有專業的"},{"start":732.635,"end":754.42,"text":"三軍將領擋在前面但是如果新防被攻破那是最恐怖的所以本席希望在這個部分從新防的部分包括其實今天我們在討論有關於到底台灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響我們能夠守多久灰色地帶就是要動搖民心今天講你說7天存糧夠不夠半年存糧夠不夠3年存糧夠不夠其實這都是一個新防的問題"},{"start":760.882,"end":784.928,"text":"但是就怕這些新防是在內部就已經被腐化那台灣就不用守了所以有關於現在中國的車聯網中國車中國電動車中國的電動公務車中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全台趴趴走我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告尤其是電池的部分我再強調跨境的BB扣都可以爆炸跨境的電池更可怕好嗎那你們要多久可以交一個報告"},{"start":791.192,"end":791.493,"text":"法務委員一個禮拜可以給報告"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時43分）謝謝主席，主席有請國防部顧部長、國安局黃副局長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：兩位好。主席今天所排定的題目當然是針對解放軍如果透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰略對臺灣來進行封鎖的時候，相關的國安危機，以及當然就是一些重要的關鍵技術、物資有沒有可能被封鎖，我想這個是非常重要的命題。不過通常是這樣，外部勢力如果對臺進行封鎖，我們可以去考量到底多少天，然後我們可以撐多久，但是最怕的是什麼？裡應外合啊！如果內部有人搞破壞，有人知道了這些訊息、這些資訊，把它洩漏出去，那我覺得才是更恐怖的。所以前面這些委員垂詢過的題目我不講，我反而希望是從……國防部的報告有特別提到，在111年1月1號成立了全民防衛動員署之後，其實是要做跨部會的整合，那麼目前在跨部會的整合裡面，最怕的就是在國內，也就是在臺灣是有透過內應的力量。在跨部會的整合當中，部長還有副局長，今天局長沒有來，那麼我們在內部是不是過去曾經林中斌有說，在當年就已經講中國對臺布建已成。那麼在所謂的整合當中，目前在臺內部的內應力量是什麼樣的一個狀況？部長或是副局長都可以回答。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員，委員垂詢在臺的內應力量，確實是有存在，我們大概都有掌蒐、國安團隊都有掌蒐，而且如果涉及到法律的一個規範，我們會請我們國安團隊，包括調查局、憲指部及警政署等司法警察機關立案來做一個偵辦，現在是有幾個個案在偵辦中。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我就怕偵辦的過程也會洩漏出去，其實為什麼會特別請顧部長上來的原因是因為全民防衛在過去兩蔣時候最喜歡講的是保密防諜、人人有責，但是現在是當全民防衛的時候，卻會出現許多的破口跟雜音在裡面嗎？因為我要強調的是，這兩天發生的新聞，一個是發生在臺中，臺中載著這些役男的車上居然就播放了中國包括抖音的影片，然後在臺北市替代役的教召當中也放了抖音的影片，而且還宣稱中國很強、很厲害，甚至在剛剛幾個質詢當中，我也聽到部分的委員高喊說中國很強啊！中國很可怕啊！像這樣子到底它是不是一種內應的形式存在，還是說它只是偶發的事件？為什麼會這麼巧，在載著役男的車子上面，我們只處罰司機、隨車人員，但是這沒有國安系統上面的問題嗎？又或者是說，在臺北市替代役的教召當中，你請來的講師就直接長他人志氣、滅自我威風，像這樣的狀況，到底是偶發還是它已經有系統性的滲入臺灣？甚至於在我們做全民防衛或全民動員的過程當中，是師資不足還是事實上已經被滲透？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我的看法是，我們一定要全國能夠團結，然後要建立敵我意識，這個是很重要的，所以就這個部分當然感覺到遺憾。中國對我們的滲透跟進行認知作戰，這個是相當綿密而廣泛的，所以這些部分的存在，在我們的民主社會當中當然有一個好處，它就是會被揭發出來，揭發出來之後，我們就要用大家團結的力量來說明，像這樣的一個情況就是在為中國進行所謂的認知作戰，這樣子的一種行為要予以譴責，然後讓它不要再發生，像剛剛所講的，國安團隊也要做一個綿密的掌握。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，請問一下，現在做全民防衛教育的師資是從哪裡來？是由國防部或全動署來做統籌嗎？因為我必須講，今天不論是臺中役男這個事情，又或者是臺北市替代役，臺中市跟臺北市這兩個案件是因為在現場，不論是替代役男或者是我們的年輕人發現不對勁，他今天是來這裡做教召或者是他來做講座，結果他發現整場沒有正確的傳達，正確的應該是全民動員的資訊，反而是在長他人志氣、滅自我威風，但是這個的揭露會不會只是冰山一角？目前我們講師的來源是怎麼樣？還是其實各縣市政府在做這樣委辦事項的時候，是有一種敷衍了事或者是他們是因為沒有正確或者是應該要專業的師資呢？在這個部分，署長。"],["白署長捷隆：有關全民國防教育法是由本部政戰局所負責，所以它區分到社會教育，近期我們也都有辦全國性的講習來培育相關師資。"],["林委員楚茵：目前全國師資一共有多少？"],["白署長捷隆：因為這是在政戰局那邊，所以我再請它提供給委員。另外，還有一個就是所謂的學校教育，也是由政戰局負責，我們有跟大專院校合作，專門來培育所有學校教育的師資，它有一套的系統，我們會把相關的資料再跟委員報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["白署長捷隆：有關地方政府……"],["林委員楚茵：所以未來這些各縣市政府在做這些所謂全民國防教育相關的講師、師資的時候，是可以有一套真的合規而且專業的教材，而不是隨便糊弄網路上抓，甚至於他該怎麼講、想怎麼講就怎麼講嗎？有一個確定的課程跟SOP嗎？"],["白署長捷隆：有，而且有教材。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以目前師資狀況是否充足的部分，是不是會後就交給外交及國防委員會跟本席？"],["白署長捷隆：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝，部長可以請回。我也想要請調查局孫承一副局長，黃副局長請留步。本席其實一直在追蹤的就是有關於中國電動車是不是借殼低價搶標來進入臺灣市場，我想這種所謂透過跟臺灣的代理商合作，從中國車變身臺灣車，然後進而低價搶標政府機關，包含國安局、工程會、經濟部跟各級政府，其實我都希望能夠去注意，包括雲林縣政府或是其他的標案，你去打開來看，就會發現中國車已經變身為臺灣車，但是公務車搭載的是我們政府或各級政府的重要官員；至於公共汽車，我們今天在講關鍵技術會不會淪陷，同樣的，回到我剛開始的命題，就是外面進攻，我們守得住，但就怕是從裡面裡應外合，我們就無法擋。如果根據關鍵基礎建設的分類，提供大眾路上運輸服務之重要系統，例如公路系統，所以公車算不算關鍵基礎設施？請問黃副局長，算不算？"],["黃副局長明昭：以關鍵基礎設施來講，設施的定義，我想大概是一種固定式的這種設備，它的產能跟我們生活息息相關的這種設備才算。"],["林委員楚茵：如果是固定的，我就教一下，高速鐵路或是公車或者是所謂的火車，這些都不算基礎設施？只有鐵軌才算，是這個意思嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們關鍵基礎設施的界定……"],["林委員楚茵：所以公路算，公車不算？副局長，你要確定你的定義喔！"],["黃副局長明昭：國家關鍵基礎設施的定義，剛剛講的那個是，車站、航空站、港口這都界定在我們關鍵基礎設施。"],["林委員楚茵：所以現在是以硬體為主，因此一臺公車在全國境內趴趴走，如果它成為會自燃的不定時炸彈，它不算是關鍵基礎設施而包括國安單位、包括調查局要去了解的嗎？因為我們現在都知道，車子只要是連線上網，車聯網，我們買中國貨，它隨時可以從外部來做干預、來做啟動，這是非常危險的一個狀況，不要忘了BB Call都可以爆炸，更何況是一臺在我們全國境內移動的公共汽車，我會這樣講，我不是空穴來風喔！包括桃園的電動巴士現在燒起來了，運安會說什麼？說這個電池可能跟中國有關；在臺中，又是臺中！有電動公車暗夜起火，那難道說這個中間沒有問題嗎？我為什麼請孫副局長上來，是因為想問調查局有沒有去了解，這到底只是個案，還是布建已成、內應已成，把電池都變成了移動的木馬屠城的新工具呢？孫副局長。"],["孫副局長承一：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["孫副局長承一：有關中共對於臺灣的顛覆滲透這麼一個狀態，調查局持續的在了解，我們去年針對不同領域中的顛覆滲透的案例也偵辦了很多的案件，那剛剛委員指教的這些問題，我們也會加強去進一步的了解，目前是還沒有列入偵辦。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以這兩個個案調查局有去了解嗎？"],["孫副局長承一：我們會努力。"],["林委員楚茵：後面的人有點頭，沒有嗎？會努力，還是後續會去了解？"],["孫副局長承一：就是說我們對於各種危安的徵候都會陸陸續續去掌握。"],["林委員楚茵：好，副局長，我為什麼會這樣講？是因為很奇怪，只要發現在役男當中、或者是替代役或者是全民動員有相關案例的時候，在好多縣市都出現，然後看到基隆公車燒起來了，桃園也有電動巴士燒，臺中也有電動巴士燒，奇怪了！這到底是發生了什麼事？這樣的事件本身背後有沒有跟中國有關，是不是有內應？這個我需要國安局或調查局給我答案，但重點是它引起的社會恐慌就會憾動人心，我想在場的兩位都清楚，國防方面我們有專業的三軍將領擋在前面，但是如果心防被攻破，那是最恐怖的。所以本席希望從心防的部分，其實今天我們在討論到底臺灣會不會受到蟒蛇計畫的影響，我們能夠守多久，灰色地帶就是要動搖民心，今天你說7天存糧夠不夠、半年存糧夠不夠、3年存糧夠不夠，其實這都是一個心防的問題，但是就怕這些心防是在內部就已經被腐化，那臺灣就不用守了！所以有關於現在中國的車聯網、中國車、中國電動車、中國的電動公務車、中國的電動公車是不是早就已經在全臺趴趴走，我希望國安單位能夠給我們一個報告，尤其是電池的部分，我再強調，跨境的BB Call都可以爆炸，跨境的電池更可怕，好嗎？那你們要多久可以交一個報告？"],["黃副局長明昭：報告委員，我們一個禮拜裡面可以給報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：接下來請林憶君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}