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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,410 --> 00:00:04,657\n請衛福部林次長請衛福部林正次委員好\n\n2\n00:00:17,179 --> 00:00:22,481\n我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的\n\n3\n00:00:35,285 --> 00:00:47,885\n行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的\n\n4\n00:00:48,991 --> 00:00:59,755\n抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢\n\n5\n00:01:06,378 --> 00:01:33,057\n報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品\n\n6\n00:01:33,888 --> 00:01:59,310\n好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作\n\n7\n00:02:01,972 --> 00:02:24,244\n跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是二日戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來我們在重要的這些醫療醫療應該有的公共預算\n\n8\n00:02:27,626 --> 00:02:54,632\n原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態變略這個部分可能要看上面的政策好那今年的5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免嘛林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧\n\n9\n00:02:54,912 --> 00:03:22,949\n是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essentialdrugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題\n\n10\n00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:50,665\n這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要\n\n11\n00:03:51,405 --> 00:04:20,318\n超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說\n\n12\n00:04:21,378 --> 00:04:44,914\n農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入EssentialDrugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造\n\n13\n00:04:50,558 --> 00:05:16,860\n好其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導謝謝好那次長請回謝謝\n\n14\n00:05:20,441 --> 00:05:25,344\n那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是\n\n15\n00:05:45,595 --> 00:06:00,179\n面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢\n\n16\n00:06:06,343 --> 00:06:35,231\n沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作\n\n17\n00:06:35,851 --> 00:07:04,412\n尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎\n\n18\n00:07:12,834 --> 00:07:30,140\n我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎\n\n19\n00:07:33,492 --> 00:07:48,134\n是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢\n\n20\n00:07:50,546 --> 00:08:09,464\n除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列\n\n21\n00:08:09,684 --> 00:08:27,271\n所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的\n\n22\n00:08:27,811 --> 00:08:42,490\n的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力\n\n23\n00:08:43,371 --> 00:09:04,562\n去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過\n\n24\n00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:33,825\n目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊但是你剛才說沒有用過啊對不對對啊那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西\n\n25\n00:09:35,726 --> 00:09:37,488\n會不會有點太扯了呢?」\n\n26\n00:09:55,888 --> 00:10:01,031\n好因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢\n\n27\n00:10:21,502 --> 00:10:45,323\n委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果\n\n28\n00:10:47,421 --> 00:11:02,950\n好啦反正我時間有限啦那我就直接建議就是說如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要像剛才說的如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦\n\n29\n00:11:04,211 --> 00:11:08,512\n本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題\n\n30\n00:11:33,288 --> 00:11:37,069\n再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳\n\n31\n00:11:53,693 --> 00:12:12,598\n個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢\n\n32\n00:12:13,238 --> 00:12:32,843\n第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人\n\n33\n00:12:33,863 --> 00:12:56,401\n那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊\n\n34\n00:13:03,346 --> 00:13:30,731\n因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了可以嗎是我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子\n\n35\n00:13:32,051 --> 00:13:32,775\nOK好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n410\t4657\t請衛福部林次長請衛福部林正次委員好\n17179\t22481\t我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的\n35285\t47885\t行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的\n48991\t59755\t抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢\n66378\t93057\t報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品\n93888\t119310\t好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作\n121972\t144244\t跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是二日戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來我們在重要的這些醫療醫療應該有的公共預算\n147626\t174632\t原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態變略這個部分可能要看上面的政策好那今年的5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免嘛林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧\n174912\t202949\t是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題\n205110\t230665\t這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要\n231405\t260318\t超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說\n261378\t284914\t農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造\n290558\t316860\t好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝\n320441\t325344\t那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是\n345595\t360179\t面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢\n366343\t395231\t沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作\n395851\t424412\t尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎\n432834\t450140\t我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎\n453492\t468134\t是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK 這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢\n470546\t489464\t除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列\n489684\t507271\t所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的\n507811\t522490\t的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力\n523371\t544562\t去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過\n546150\t573825\t目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西\n575726\t577488\t會不會有點太扯了呢?」\n595888\t601031\t好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢\n621502\t645323\t委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果\n647421\t662950\t好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦\n664211\t668512\t本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題\n693288\t697069\t再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳\n713693\t732598\t個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢\n733238\t752843\t第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人\n753863\t776401\t那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊\n783346\t810731\t因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子\n812051\t812775\tOK好 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","txt":"請衛福部林次長請衛福部林正次委員好\n我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的\n行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的\n抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢\n報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品\n好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作\n跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是二日戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來我們在重要的這些醫療醫療應該有的公共預算\n原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態變略這個部分可能要看上面的政策好那今年的5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免嘛林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧\n是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題\n這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要\n超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說\n農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造\n好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝\n那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是\n面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢\n沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作\n尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎\n我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎\n是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK 這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢\n除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列\n所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的\n的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力\n去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過\n目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西\n會不會有點太扯了呢?」\n好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢\n委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果\n好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦\n本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題\n再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳\n個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢\n第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人\n那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊\n因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子\nOK好 謝謝部長好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.410 --> 00:04.657\n請衛福部林次長請衛福部林正次委員好\n\n00:17.179 --> 00:22.481\n我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的\n\n00:35.285 --> 00:47.885\n行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的\n\n00:48.991 --> 00:59.755\n抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢\n\n01:06.378 --> 01:33.057\n報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品\n\n01:33.888 --> 01:59.310\n好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作\n\n02:01.972 --> 02:24.244\n跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是二日戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來我們在重要的這些醫療醫療應該有的公共預算\n\n02:27.626 --> 02:54.632\n原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態變略這個部分可能要看上面的政策好那今年的5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免嘛林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧\n\n02:54.912 --> 03:22.949\n是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essentialdrugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題\n\n03:25.110 --> 03:50.665\n這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要\n\n03:51.405 --> 04:20.318\n超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說\n\n04:21.378 --> 04:44.914\n農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入EssentialDrugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造\n\n04:50.558 --> 05:16.860\n好其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導謝謝好那次長請回謝謝\n\n05:20.441 --> 05:25.344\n那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是\n\n05:45.595 --> 06:00.179\n面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢\n\n06:06.343 --> 06:35.231\n沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作\n\n06:35.851 --> 07:04.412\n尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎\n\n07:12.834 --> 07:30.140\n我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎\n\n07:33.492 --> 07:48.134\n是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢\n\n07:50.546 --> 08:09.464\n除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列\n\n08:09.684 --> 08:27.271\n所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的\n\n08:27.811 --> 08:42.490\n的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力\n\n08:43.371 --> 09:04.562\n去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過\n\n09:06.150 --> 09:33.825\n目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊但是你剛才說沒有用過啊對不對對啊那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西\n\n09:35.726 --> 09:37.488\n會不會有點太扯了呢?」\n\n09:55.888 --> 10:01.031\n好因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢\n\n10:21.502 --> 10:45.323\n委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果\n\n10:47.421 --> 11:02.950\n好啦反正我時間有限啦那我就直接建議就是說如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要像剛才說的如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦\n\n11:04.211 --> 11:08.512\n本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題\n\n11:33.288 --> 11:37.069\n再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳\n\n11:53.693 --> 12:12.598\n個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢\n\n12:13.238 --> 12:32.843\n第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人\n\n12:33.863 --> 12:56.401\n那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊\n\n13:03.346 --> 13:30.731\n因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了可以嗎是我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子\n\n13:32.051 --> 13:32.775\nOK好謝謝部長好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.41,"end":4.657,"text":"請衛福部林次長請衛福部林正次委員好"},{"start":17.179,"end":22.481,"text":"我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後全球面臨的搶藥的風波當然國軍在各項的操演演練戰傷的救護為了貼近戰場的突發狀況強化全民的國防所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的"},{"start":35.285,"end":47.885,"text":"行政院也為了全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資包括外商常用的"},{"start":48.991,"end":59.755,"text":"抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒止吐的藥品還有紗布、還有棉花這次動用到第二預備金上億元總共有1億3812萬元全部都是購買外商用的戰略物資是不是這樣呢"},{"start":66.378,"end":93.057,"text":"報告委員我們有事先準備了外商準備的這一個包含藥品跟衛材來確保說因為台灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭事實上台灣我們都會面臨到複合式的災難複合式災難的過程中甚至像之前COVID-19的時候我們沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品衛材這個一旦發生一些特殊狀況我們會有缺乏所以也跟委員報告我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材包含外商還有一些必要的藥品"},{"start":93.888,"end":119.31,"text":"好當然這個動作也是引發關注啦當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候其實看到這個新聞我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了所以本席想要請教次長為何採購外商用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面是想要規避立法院的監督呢還是真的只是要單純清點戰備物資的利息性工作"},{"start":121.972,"end":144.244,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當然不敢規避但是這個部分當時應該是在就是二日戰爭之後的編列那當時的一些想法第一個是要因應緊急的狀況所以那個時候應該是這個原因編列當然因為不在我任內我沒有辦法回答但是還有一個狀況就是說因為這些是一個固定的編列那固定編列的部分我們會希望它不要佔用到原來我們在重要的這些醫療醫療應該有的公共預算"},{"start":147.626,"end":174.632,"text":"原來的支出所以它是一個國家用一個比較中央型的立場去做一個準備那至於這個部分未來會不會常態變略這個部分可能要看上面的政策好那今年的5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學招熱令的官場導致醫院手術洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水葡萄糖液都缺貨的危機連醫學中心都是難以倖免嘛林次長你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧"},{"start":174.912,"end":202.949,"text":"是它是生理食鹽水的那個大包裝的那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水還有面具液還有葡萄糖、蔬液這些應該是戰略戰備的物質是非常重要的基本的醫療的用藥吧謝謝委員沒有錯不過因為之前它在之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的其中一個原因是說第一個是因為聯合國也沒有列進去第二個部分就是說當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商然後但是真的沒有預估到其中是佔太大的那個廠商他們後來出了問題"},{"start":205.11,"end":230.665,"text":"這些數位不論是戰備還是平時的準備都已經補足了嗎?還是目前只是還是仰賴的專業進口呢?現在的狀況就是第一我們之前也感謝我們國內很多合格廠商他們幫我們加班、趕工製造更多的產量那第二個部分也跟我們報告我們也有詢問其他的廠商願不願意增加生產線就是說再加開一條產線那加開產線第一個那個投資要上億第二個要"},{"start":231.405,"end":260.318,"text":"超過一年以上的時間所以他們先幫我們用加班的方式做那我們也積極輔導之前就是有這個不合規的廠商所以他目前已經可以供應就是大包裝的沖洗液那在注射液的部分因為他的相關的規則更嚴格一點那現在也如果順利的話在11月應該可以開始供應不過因為他終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制所以那個量的部分我們大概會比較確定大家的農曆因為我們農曆年之前運輸等等都會受到一點影響所以我們現在是很確定說"},{"start":261.378,"end":284.914,"text":"農曆年之後應該是可以穩定供貨那農曆年之前我們還有一批的專案進口這樣大概就穩定那我跟委員報告就是說也因為這件事情我們也重新盤點第一個生理食品水部分納入Essential Drugs就是必要藥品第二個部分就是我們其實要盡量積極的讓國內的廠商都能夠維持穩定的供貨不論是生理食品水或相關的藥品那這也是謝謝委員都支持說我們盡量鼓勵國產藥廠能夠從原料藥到生產藥品的部分都能夠在國內自己來製造"},{"start":290.558,"end":316.86,"text":"好 其實衛福部必須要從國防的外交戰略的角度定期要檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性還有全面要找出供應的斷鏈的危機的問題避免兩岸關係萬一生變的時候導致製藥原料突然的中斷還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全的存量所以這點可能要周全的規劃因為暫時的用藥還是非常重要的謝謝委員支持指導 謝謝好 那次長請回謝謝"},{"start":320.441,"end":325.344,"text":"那有請國防部長及海巡署副署長有請郭部長還有海巡署長再來想要請教一下部長現在我們所面對的中共的海上的灰色地帶侵擾的話是從海軍、海警然後到海上的民兵這種複合式的威脅對吧是"},{"start":345.595,"end":360.179,"text":"面對不同層級的威脅其實我們這邊有派出相應的單位像漁船還是對方的海警船這些都是海巡署要去應對的但如果是軍艦的話大部分的狀況我們是派軍艦過去但現在是不是在某些情況下我們的海巡艦也要擔負著監控驅離中共軍艦的工作呢"},{"start":366.343,"end":395.231,"text":"沒有就軍艦的部分的話我們還是協同應處因為像這一次的話它軍艦結合海警的話我們是認為海警已經加入這個軍艦了這個是屬於一個演習的這個就是說這種操演的這種行動所以未來這樣的複合式的威脅其實會變成常態嘛但這個就是需要海軍跟海軍我不敢說它會變成常態但是我們一定要跟海軍來協同應處但是是不是一定要共同的合作"},{"start":395.851,"end":424.412,"text":"尤其像這次的聯合力建的軍演就是中共海軍跟海警都同時都已經出來了那海軍跟海巡建立的共同圖像就很重要那目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同的圖像這樣是不是建議部長剛好海巡副署長也在那你們是不是要去研議看看現在海軍已經有現成的連程系統海巡的嘉義級和安平級是不是也都有現在有共同的圖像了嗎"},{"start":432.834,"end":450.14,"text":"我們協助海巡一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像所以都是有共同的圖像好那接下來就是說想請教副署長我們的海巡署的海巡艦上面就有一個獨布全世界的裝備全世界的海岸警衛都沒有的只有我們有副署長你知道這是什麼嗎"},{"start":453.492,"end":468.134,"text":"是不是可以請委員再明確再指導一下OK 這個就是鎮海的火箭戰嘛所以所有的裝備都有它的任務的需求那我想請教一下副署長就是我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢"},{"start":470.546,"end":489.464,"text":"除了平常我們海域執法外目前面對中共互合式脅迫包括任職作戰包括灰色地帶襲擾所以不僅是海上執法我們還面對中共的脅迫另外平戰總辦之後我們會立即無妨接軌會投入海軍的作戰序列"},{"start":489.684,"end":507.271,"text":"所以我們的海巡暫時其實是擔負的第二個海軍的任務嗎?我們平常有海域執法暫時我們依據國防法的規定我們會進行平等轉換那海巡界上面的武裝不在乎就是兩種用途嗎?第一種是南庭船隻的"},{"start":507.811,"end":522.49,"text":"的時候做一個警告的設計另外一個是遇到武裝非法船隻的時候我們能夠有一個活力的壓制但是火彈艦的裝藥的量大飛行的速度非常的慢簡單來說其實是打不準的所以我們用活力"},{"start":523.371,"end":544.562,"text":"去覆蓋了打擊的一個面不能拿來做一個精準的射擊然後也不能打船隻這種移動的目標這樣看起來是不是在海巡艦上面裝鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點積熱呢那我問你一個比較實際的問題好了從第一座的鎮海的火箭彈裝到上船到現在我們有沒有開火過"},{"start":546.15,"end":573.825,"text":"目前沒有但是各位報告我們火箭彈的話我們有不同的彈種甚至有照明彈對啊 但是你剛才說沒有用過啊 對不對對啊 那暫時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打那根本就是拿你們海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑啊這台又說你剛才說沒有用過啊這種陣海火箭彈裝在船上面平常也不敢用暫時又不管用這種東西"},{"start":575.726,"end":577.488,"text":"會不會有點太扯了呢?」"},{"start":595.888,"end":601.031,"text":"好 因為我看了你們114年的預算書裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致密性的裝備試辦計畫3年就要花了8600萬要做什麼 要採購低致密性及聲光彈為什麼要研發這兩種彈呢那不是就是火箭彈威力大是不是又難控制弱點 因為怕打死人所以副署長你這樣是不是就是靴足勢縷了呢"},{"start":621.502,"end":645.323,"text":"委員我中科院院長這我幫海巡署回答因為他們是為給我們中科院來研製的那主要是兩種彈一種是陰暴彈一種是髒彈所以髒彈就是會有那個油漆啊或是染色劑這兩種彈最主要就是讓海巡在面對可能數量比較龐大的海上民兵的時候遇到類似的狀況他可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果"},{"start":647.421,"end":662.95,"text":"好啦 反正我時間有限啦 那我就直接建議就是說 如果說你們想要這樣做其實這個案子也可以不用做了 因為最好等於浪費納稅人的錢因為你們如果是要 像剛才說的 如果是要製造了炮陣的這些聲音不如就去放煙火比較快啦"},{"start":664.211,"end":668.512,"text":"本席這邊還是具體的建議副署長可從國防部現在的裝備考慮採購因為各種軍種都一定的數量剛好顧部長也在這邊看是不是可以回去研議一下然後把那個成本也可以壓低給我們第一線的海巡人真的可以用得上的東西不要給他平常不敢用暫時又不管用的東西那我再請教其他人再請教部長一些問題"},{"start":693.288,"end":697.069,"text":"再請教部長一下前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去是政風處那邊傳的嘛具體是誰做的我想應該是很清楚了但是因為事件剛開始的時候完整的調查可能還要幾天那請問一下現在是有調查結果了嗎還有問一下部長說這些個資是政風是回傳"},{"start":713.693,"end":732.598,"text":"個人所得還是剛才所說的一般的名單這樣把這些人的資料都傳出去了呢還有這一點是不小心的你們判斷是不小心的還是刻意的呢還是有你們是怎樣的判斷這些事情呢還有有沒有流入民用的網路還是僅限在軍用的網路裡面呢"},{"start":733.238,"end":752.843,"text":"第一個跟委員報告沒有流入民用的網路是在內部的軍網裡面以電子發文的方式含文給這個需要做申報作業的一個28個單位那也不是以任何以電子郵件來傳送所以是傳送以電子以內部軍網的公文系統電子發文的方式含送給承辦人"},{"start":753.863,"end":776.401,"text":"那案內的名冊裡面是服務機關職稱、姓名就這樣還有申報年度大概就這幾個項目那研判起來應該是說他應該要做區域隔的處理有一些具有機密人員身份好好因為我時間也不夠啦資料庫其實都是完整的怎麼會有一個單純洩漏一般人民的欄位有那麼簡單嗎部長你確定這個事情事情真的是那麼簡單嗎還是國防部要說實話不要企圖都想要掩蓋事實啊"},{"start":783.346,"end":810.731,"text":"因為我們的軍購已經被坑了資料也被盜了請國防部務必要嚴查不要企圖用國防部、盟部的部來把這個蓋住了這樣所以我想國防部未來應該要想說以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了 可以嗎是 我想整個行政調查我們就由法務部聯政署來由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查那這樣的話應該會比較客觀公允一點相關的疏失我們以後也會來究責這樣子"},{"start":812.051,"end":812.775,"text":"OK好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時56分）請衛福部林次長。"],["主席：請衛福部林政次。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：我們知道自從2022年俄烏戰爭爆發之後，全球面臨了搶藥的風波，當然國軍在各項的操演、演練戰傷的救護，為了貼近戰場的突發狀況，強化全民的國防，所以戰時的用藥其實是不可或缺的。行政院也為了全面盤點國內戰時緊急的物資，從去年交由衛福部統籌跨部會，全面盤點國內的戰時緊急物資，包括外傷常用的抗生素、麻醉藥、點滴、退燒、止吐的藥品，還有紗布及棉花，這是動用到第二預備金上億元，總共有1億3,812萬元，全部都是購買外傷用的戰略物資，是不是這樣呢？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我們有事先準備了外傷的藥品跟衛材以確保足夠，因為臺灣其實不單純只是準備戰爭，事實上，我們臺灣都會面臨到複合式的災難，那在複合式災難的過程中，甚至像之前COVID-19的時候，我們如果沒有事先儲存一定程度的藥品、衛材，一旦發生一些特殊狀況，我們會有缺乏，所以也跟委員報告，我們有準備大概一定程度的藥品跟衛材，包含外傷還有一些必要的藥品。"],["林委員憶君：好，當然這個動作也是引發關注，在當時本席還沒有擔任立委的時候，看到這個新聞，我也是誤解為是不是準備要開戰了，所以本席想要請教次長，為何採購外傷用戰略物資要全部動用到第二預備金的編列，而不是編列在平常的公務預算或是作業基金裡面？是想要規避立法院的監督，還是真的只是單純清點戰備物資的例行性工作？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，就是說當然不敢規避，但是這個部分應該是在俄烏戰爭之後的編列，那當時的一些想法，第一個是要因應緊急的狀況，所以那個時候應該是基於這個原因編列，當然因為不在我任內，我沒有辦法回答。但是還有一個狀況就是說，因為這些是一個固定的編列，那固定編列的部分，我們會希望它不要占用到我們在這些重要醫療應該有的公務預算原來的支出，所以它是國家用比較中央型的立場去做一個準備，至於這個部分未來會不會常態編列，這可能要看上面的政策。"],["林委員憶君：好，在今年5月爆發輸液大廠永豐化學遭勒令關廠，導致醫院手術、洗腎室大部分需要的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖等輸液都有缺貨的危機，連醫學中心都難以倖免。林次長，你知道洗腎手術的輸液使用最大量的應該是生理食鹽水吧？"],["林次長靜儀：是，是那個大包裝的生理食鹽水。"],["林委員憶君：那次長也應該知道生理食鹽水、滅菌液還有葡萄糖等輸液應該是戰備的物質，是非常重要的基本醫療用藥吧！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。沒有錯，不過因為之前沒有把它列入所謂essential drugs的原因，第一，因為聯合國也沒有列進去。第二，當時我們評估國內有很多家廠商，但是真的沒有預估到其中市占太大的那個廠商後來出了問題。"],["林委員憶君：好，這些輸液不論是戰備還是平時的準備，都已經補足了嗎？還是目前仍是仰賴專業進口？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，報告委員，現在的狀況是，第一，我們也很感謝國內很多合格廠商之前幫我們加班趕工，製造更多的產量。第二個部分也跟委員報告，我們有詢問其他廠商願不願意增加生產線，就是再加開一條產線，但加開產線第一，投資要上億；第二，要超過一年以上時間，所以他們先幫我們用加班方式來做，而我們也積極輔導之前不合規的廠商，所以目前已經可以供應大包裝沖洗液。在注射液部分，因為它的相關規則更嚴格一點，如果順利的話，11月應該可以開始供應，不過因為它終於恢復到應該有的這些品質管制，所以量的部分，大概比較確定是在農曆年後，因為農曆年之前的運輸等等會受到一點影響，所以我們現在是很確定在農曆年之後，應該可以穩定供貨，至於農曆年之前，我們還有一批專案進口，這樣大概就可以穩定。也跟委員報告，因為這件事情我們重新盤點，第一，生理食鹽水部分納入essential drugs，就是必要藥品。第二，我們儘量積極地讓國內廠商都能夠維持穩定供貨，不論是生理食鹽水或相關藥品，這也謝謝委員都支持我們儘量鼓勵國產藥廠從原料藥到生產藥品部分，都能夠在國內自己製造。"],["林委員憶君：好，其實衛福部必須從國防的外交戰略角度，定期檢視這些藥物的供應鏈安全性，還有全面找出供應斷鏈的危機問題，避免兩岸關係萬一生變，導致製藥原料突然的中斷。還有戰備管制藥品無法長期維持在安全存量部分，這點可能也要周全規劃，因為戰時的用藥還是非常重要。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員支持、指導，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好，次長請回。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：有請國防部長及海巡署副署長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，還有海巡署副署長。"],["林委員憶君：再來想請教部長，現在我們面對中共海上灰色地帶的侵擾，就是從海軍、警，到海上民兵這種複合式的威脅，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：面對不同層級的威脅，其實我們這邊有派出相應單位，像是漁船或是對方的海警船，都是由海巡署去應對，如果是軍艦的話，大部分的狀況是派軍艦過去，但現在在某些情況下，我們的海巡艦是不是也要擔負監控、驅離中共軍艦的工作呢？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，就軍艦部分，我們還是協同應處，像這一次他們的軍艦結合海警，我們認為海警已經加入軍艦了，這是屬於一個軍……這個演習的……就是說這種操演的行動，我們本身是……"],["林委員憶君：好，未來這樣的複合式威脅，其實會變成常態，但這就需要海軍跟海巡……"],["顧部長立雄：我不敢說這會變成常態，但我們一定要跟海巡協同應處。"],["林委員憶君：是不是一定要共同合作？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：尤其像這次的聯合利劍軍演，中共海軍跟海警同時都出來了，那我們的海軍跟海巡建立共同圖像就很重要，但目前海軍跟海巡好像沒有建立共同圖像，剛好海巡署副署長也在，建議部長，你們是不是研議看看，現在海軍已經有現成的聯成系統，海巡的……"],["顧部長立雄：我們的……"],["林委員憶君：嘉義級和安平級其實也都有來……"],["顧部長立雄：那個……"],["林委員憶君：現在有共同圖像了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有共同……"],["林委員憶君：已經完成了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，是。"],["李院長世強：報告，我們協助海巡，一直有跟海軍的共同作戰圖像。"],["林委員憶君：所以都是有共同圖像？"],["李院長世強：一直以來都是。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來要請教副署長，海巡署的海巡艦上有一個獨步全世界的裝備，全世界海岸警衛都沒有，只有我們有，副署長知道是什麼嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是不是可以請委員再明確指導一下？"],["林委員憶君：OK，就是鎮海火箭彈嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：喔！是。"],["林委員憶君：所有裝備都有它的任務需求，請教副署長，我們海巡有什麼任務是全世界其他國家都沒有的呢？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，我們除了平常的海域執法外，目前面對中共複合式脅迫，包括認知作戰、灰色地帶襲擾，所以不僅海上執法，我們還面對中共的脅迫。另外，平戰轉換部分，我們會立即無縫接軌，投入海軍作戰序列。"],["林委員憶君：所以海巡戰時其實是擔負著第二個海軍的任務，對不對？可以這樣講吧？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們平常有海域執法，戰時則依據國防法規定，進行平戰轉換。"],["林委員憶君：好，那海巡艦上的武裝不外乎兩種用途，第一種是攔停船隻時的警告射擊，另外一種是遇到武裝非法船隻時，能夠有一個火力壓制，但是火箭彈裝藥量大，飛行速度非常慢，簡單來說，其實是打不準的，所以我們用火力去覆蓋打擊面，但不能做為精準的射擊，也不能打船隻這種移動目標，看起來海巡艦上裝設鎮海火箭彈是不是有一點雞肋呢？我問你一個比較實際的問題好了，從第一座鎮海火箭彈上船裝到現在，我們有沒有開火過？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前沒有，但是跟委員報告，我們的火箭彈有不同彈種，甚至有照明彈。"],["林委員憶君：對啊！但是你剛才說沒有用過，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["林委員憶君：對啊！戰時要你們海巡人員拿射程10公里的火箭彈去跟共軍打，根本就是拿海巡隊員的生命在開玩笑！你剛才說沒有用過，這種鎮海火箭彈裝在船上，平常不敢用，戰時又不管用，這種東西會不會有點太扯了呢？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們平常訓練事實上都有發射過飛彈，平常的平戰轉換都有在準備。另外，在執法的部分，我們會視實際個案需要使用不同的武器，海巡有槍械使用條例，我們會視個案狀況妥適運用。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我看了你們114年的預算書，裡面有一個海巡艦艇低致命性裝備試辦計畫，三年要花8,600萬，做什麼呢？要採購低致命性及聲光彈，為什麼研發這兩種彈，不就是因為火箭彈威力大，難控制落點，怕打死人，副署長，你們這樣做是不是削足適履呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，我是中科院院長，我幫海巡署回答，因為他們是委給中科院研製的。主要是兩種彈，一種是音爆彈，一種是髒彈，所謂髒彈，就是會有油漆或染色劑，這兩種彈最主要是讓海巡在面對數量可能比較龐大的海上民兵時，遇到類似狀況，可以用這兩種非致命性的武器來達到威嚇的效果。"],["林委員憶君：好啦！反正我時間有限，我就直接建議，其實這個案子也可以不用做，因為做了等於浪費納稅人的錢，如果只是像你們剛才說的，只是要製造砲陣的這些聲音，不如就去放煙火比較快啦！","本席還是具體建議副署長，可以從國防部現有的裝備中考慮採購，因為各軍種都有一定的數量，剛好顧部長也在這邊，看看是不是回去可以研議一下，然後也可以把成本壓低，給我們第一線的海巡人員真的可以用得上的東西，而不要再給他們平常不敢用、戰時又不管用的東西。","其他人請回座，我再請教部長一些問題。部長，前兩天國防部個資洩漏出去，是政風處那邊傳出去的，具體是誰做的，我想應該很清楚，但因為事件剛開始，完整的調查可能還要幾天，請問部長，現在有調查結果了嗎？還有這些傳出去的資料是政風室回傳的個人所得個資，還是剛才說的是一般名單？根據你們判斷，這是不小心的，還是刻意呢？又你們是怎樣判斷這些事情呢？這些資料有沒有流入民用網路，還是僅限在軍用網路裡呢？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個跟委員報告，沒有流入民用網路，是在內部的軍網裡，以電子發文方式函文給這些需要做申報作業的28個單位，這部分也不是以任何電子郵件傳送，而是以內部軍網的公文系統用電子發文方式函送給承辦人，案內名冊裡包括服務機關、職稱、姓名，還有申報年度，大概就這幾個項目，研判起來他應該要做區隔的處理，因為有一些人具有機敏人員身分。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為我時間也不夠，資料庫其實都是完整的，怎麼會單純只是洩漏一般人名的欄位？有那麼簡單嗎？部長，你確定這個事情真的是那麼簡單嗎？國防部要說實話，不要企圖想要掩蓋事實，因為我們的軍購已經被坑了，資料也被盜了，請國防部務必要嚴查，不要企圖用「國防布」來把這個事情蓋住。國防部未來應該要想，以後要怎麼樣預防這些事情不要再犯了，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。我想整個行政調查，我們就由法務部廉政署，由部外的單位來做一個獨立的行政調查，這樣的話，應該會比較客觀公允一點，相關的疏失，我們以後也會來究責。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好。謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}