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{\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 244.269, \"end\": 269.875, \"text\": \"這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 244.269, \"end\": 244.369, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 244.369, \"end\": 244.529, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 244.529, \"end\": 244.669, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 244.669, \"end\": 244.849, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"揭\", \"start\": 244.849, \"end\": 244.989, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"露\", \"start\": 244.989, \"end\": 245.109, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 245.109, \"end\": 245.289, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 245.289, \"end\": 246.29, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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497.574, \"score\": 0.373}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 497.574, \"end\": 497.634, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 497.634, \"end\": 497.755, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 497.755, \"end\": 497.775, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 497.775, \"end\": 497.815, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 497.815, \"end\": 497.835, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 497.835, \"end\": 497.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,266 --> 00:00:23,988\n蓋瑞榮委員好謝謝召委請連次長跟施次長請連次長跟施次長好兩位次長好我先請連次長了這一次這個碳費的價格碳定價的價格那外界有人認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家連次長怎麼看\n\n2\n00:00:27,703 --> 00:00:51,972\n因為本來我們是在碳費審議委內我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高\n\n3\n00:00:53,482 --> 00:01:16,824\n所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種\n\n4\n00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:25,208\n然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說\n\n5\n00:01:25,936 --> 00:01:29,058\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n\n6\n00:01:49,728 --> 00:02:13,746\n整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊\n\n7\n00:02:15,387 --> 00:02:37,063\n這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰\n\n8\n00:02:38,624 --> 00:03:00,176\n所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個\n\n9\n00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:10,275\n這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:33,010 --> 00:03:34,130\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n\n11\n00:04:04,269 --> 00:04:29,875\n這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?\n\n12\n00:04:31,121 --> 00:04:38,970\n因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的\n\n13\n00:04:39,895 --> 00:05:00,842\n往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理\n\n14\n00:05:09,645 --> 00:05:32,743\n好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些\n\n15\n00:05:33,643 --> 00:05:36,824\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。\n\n16\n00:05:57,426 --> 00:06:22,051\n獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?\n\n17\n00:06:23,442 --> 00:06:31,559\n因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補\n\n18\n00:06:32,780 --> 00:06:55,161\n第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。\n\n19\n00:06:57,003 --> 00:07:09,417\n那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術\n\n20\n00:07:10,782 --> 00:07:30,353\n那還有這個調試啦那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候常常一進到後來\n\n21\n00:07:31,454 --> 00:07:33,236\n二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．\n\n22\n00:07:51,198 --> 00:08:13,850\n那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個\n\n23\n00:08:14,950 --> 00:08:17,855\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n266\t23988\t蓋瑞榮委員好謝謝召委請連次長跟施次長請連次長跟施次長好兩位次長好我先請連次長了這一次這個碳費的價格碳定價的價格那外界有人認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家連次長怎麼看\n27703\t51972\t因為本來我們是在碳費審議委內我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高\n53482\t76824\t所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好 那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種\n77520\t85208\t然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說\n85936\t89058\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n109728\t133746\t整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊\n135387\t157063\t這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰\n158624\t180176\t所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個\n183210\t190275\t這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣\n213010\t214130\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n244269\t269875\t這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?\n271121\t278970\t因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的\n279895\t300842\t往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理\n309645\t332743\t好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些\n333643\t336824\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。\n357426\t382051\t獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?\n383442\t391559\t因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補\n392780\t415161\t第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。\n417003\t429417\t那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術\n430782\t450353\t那還有這個調試啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用 但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了 不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候 常常一進到後來\n451454\t453236\t二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．\n471198\t493850\t那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個\n494950\t497855\t二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n","txt":"蓋瑞榮委員好謝謝召委請連次長跟施次長請連次長跟施次長好兩位次長好我先請連次長了這一次這個碳費的價格碳定價的價格那外界有人認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家連次長怎麼看\n因為本來我們是在碳費審議委內我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高\n所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好 那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種\n然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊\n這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰\n所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個\n這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?\n因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的\n往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理\n好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。\n獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?\n因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補\n第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。\n那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術\n那還有這個調試啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用 但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了 不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候 常常一進到後來\n二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．\n那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.266 --> 00:23.988\n蓋瑞榮委員好謝謝召委請連次長跟施次長請連次長跟施次長好兩位次長好我先請連次長了這一次這個碳費的價格碳定價的價格那外界有人認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家連次長怎麼看\n\n00:27.703 --> 00:51.972\n因為本來我們是在碳費審議委內我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高\n\n00:53.482 --> 01:16.824\n所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種\n\n01:17.520 --> 01:25.208\n然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說\n\n01:25.936 --> 01:29.058\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業\n\n01:49.728 --> 02:13.746\n整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊\n\n02:15.387 --> 02:37.063\n這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰\n\n02:38.624 --> 03:00.176\n所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個\n\n03:03.210 --> 03:10.275\n這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣\n\n03:33.010 --> 03:34.130\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。\n\n04:04.269 --> 04:29.875\n這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?\n\n04:31.121 --> 04:38.970\n因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的\n\n04:39.895 --> 05:00.842\n往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理\n\n05:09.645 --> 05:32.743\n好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些\n\n05:33.643 --> 05:36.824\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。\n\n05:57.426 --> 06:22.051\n獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?\n\n06:23.442 --> 06:31.559\n因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補\n\n06:32.780 --> 06:55.161\n第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。\n\n06:57.003 --> 07:09.417\n那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術\n\n07:10.782 --> 07:30.353\n那還有這個調試啦那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候常常一進到後來\n\n07:31.454 --> 07:33.236\n二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．\n\n07:51.198 --> 08:13.850\n那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個\n\n08:14.950 --> 08:17.855\n二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.266,"end":23.988,"text":"蓋瑞榮委員好謝謝召委請連次長跟施次長請連次長跟施次長好兩位次長好我先請連次長了這一次這個碳費的價格碳定價的價格那外界有人認為說是高於鄰近的幾個國家連次長怎麼看"},{"start":27.703,"end":51.972,"text":"因為本來我們是在碳費審議委內我們是要建立是要跟我們周遭的那個競爭對手主要競爭對手對對對那現在這樣下來是如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險因為它有一些優惠的話應該是介於20塊左右是剛好是在日本跟韓國中間但是一般產業確實是比那個日本還高"},{"start":53.482,"end":76.824,"text":"所以經濟部還是希望能夠在這個過程中能夠兼顧到產業上的一些狀況因為我們已經極力在爭取了因為後來因為委員會是共識局好 那個施次長要不要說明一下跟委員報告因為我們委員會的組成其實部會有代表那這個團體有代表專家學者也有代表那在團體的代表上面有這個工種商種"},{"start":77.52,"end":85.208,"text":"然後有這個民間團體的代表那我想就是以不同代表團體的委員的立場其實會希望說"},{"start":85.936,"end":89.058,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業"},{"start":109.728,"end":133.746,"text":"整個未來面對這樣一個減碳的狀況下讓企業能夠順利的轉型度過讓他們同時具有競爭力所以我覺得這樣的一個思維是要很密切去做注意的所以我們也看到了其實前經濟部長王美花也特別提到她擔憂的也是跟其他周邊的鄰近的一些國家的競爭力特別是在鋼鐵石化、水泥這都幾乎都很多在高雄這邊"},{"start":135.387,"end":157.063,"text":"這個感受會特別的深刻啦你看克萊這個碳費的部分高雄是最高的但是台北是最低的台北幾乎是沒有所以當高雄已經承擔了這麼大的國家的重大的責任他面臨空污面臨所有這些的時候我們當然努力想要去這個面臨這樣的一個挑戰但是必須要國家給予一定的支持跟協助才能夠順利的度過這樣的一個挑戰"},{"start":158.624,"end":180.176,"text":"所以我希望未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些執法等等的時候我希望兩位次長兩個部會都能夠還是要秉持這樣的原則我們是在協助企業去度過這樣的一個順利的接軌上去給他們更強的競爭力讓他們更好的一個這個才是最核心的一個問題好不好那我接下來問一下那這個"},{"start":183.21,"end":190.275,"text":"這個前王部長這邊他認為CBAM有相當的難度那明年還是要照這樣來推嗎?市長要不要講一下?我們是可能要先討論從申報開始因為我想王部長也應該蠻清楚就是我們的這個扣件業出口到歐盟面臨歐盟的CBAM其實申報上面是確實有很大的困難跟挑戰那也因此我們在國內設計的時候會參考歐盟到底在申報的過程當中有什麼樣"},{"start":213.01,"end":214.13,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助規劃。"},{"start":244.269,"end":269.875,"text":"這個應該是在高碳揭露風險前面?這個確定會嗎?對,在其他國家都是。因為如果有這樣的狀況下的話,包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嗎?所以我想他會,就整個對他們的影響應該會降到最低,給他們更多的時間來做這樣一個處理。好,那另外,開增這樣的碳費的對國營事業部分,這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題?那個連次長要不要先講一下?"},{"start":271.121,"end":278.97,"text":"因為這一次如果透過這種．剛才其實鍾游跟台電有提到整個那個他徵收的"},{"start":279.895,"end":300.842,"text":"往下降如果又會的話會差不多原來的三分之一那應該這個幅度不是很大應該不是往下去轉價我們還是要請經濟部也要密切的注意密切注意不要讓這樣東西有甚至於對於物價的部分產生過大的一些的然後也請環境部這邊也要審慎思考就是在這整個過程中要讓它能夠比較平順一點的去處理"},{"start":309.645,"end":332.743,"text":"好那再來我想請教一下現在這個碳費預估收入大概會有60億這個大概如果就算照那個會有60億那現在大家也在關心那我個人也主張其實來自於收至於哪邊其實應該多用於哪邊去做協助讓他們能夠既然來自這邊的都是高碳排的一些"},{"start":333.643,"end":336.824,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配合。"},{"start":357.426,"end":382.051,"text":"獎勵跟補助這個有關於事業投資．一些有關於減碳的技術．所以這個一定是有減碳需求．或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高．需要資金的挹注、協助．我們這個碳費的收入會優先以這個為主對,那現在各地方政府．當然有很多會希望是讓地方政府是提．給他們自己用．但現在環境不是希望用提計畫的方式嗎?"},{"start":383.442,"end":391.559,"text":"因為第一個就是我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補"},{"start":392.78,"end":415.161,"text":"第二,我們也參考其他國家,比如說我原本都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較。日本、韓國、新加坡收進來的碳定價的收入其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配,因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量,甚至有一些地區會需要很大的調適的資金。"},{"start":417.003,"end":429.417,"text":"那甚至這個剛剛有委員很關心這個原住民強化我們的碳費的功能也會需要做補助所以可能我們的碳費的收入還是會以這個減量的工作減量計畫減量技術"},{"start":430.782,"end":450.353,"text":"那還有這個調試啦 那就這個分到我還是要強調啦齁 這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去齁在中央或地方怎麼樣用 但是我還是強調的是就是大戶就需要那個部分繳納多了 不應該用於改善就像我記得以前空污費的時候 常常一進到後來"},{"start":451.454,"end":453.236,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．及政府協助企業因應之配套措施．"},{"start":471.198,"end":493.85,"text":"那既然這些碳費我們看了一下碳費最高的比例在高雄市然後再來雲林這幾乎26、24然後再來台中13可是你看像新北市0.63台北市甚至是0所以我認為在這樣的狀況下其實應該要把這些資源就用在不管是用中央的職業做或者是地方政府但是應該用在當地的這個直接改善它的直接協助他們這個"},{"start":494.95,"end":497.855,"text":"二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、財政部首長、"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時13分）謝謝召委，請連次長跟施次長。"],["主席：請連次長跟施次長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩位次長好。我先請教連次長，這一次碳費的價格，碳定價的價格，外界有人認為是高於鄰近的幾個國家，連次長怎麼看？"],["連次長錦漳：因為本來在碳費審議委員會，我們是建議要跟周遭的競爭對手去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主要競爭對手。"],["連次長錦漳：對，那現在這樣下來，如果是剛才講的高碳洩漏風險，因為它有一些優惠，應該是介於20元左右，剛好是在日本和韓國中間，但是一般產業確實是比日本還高。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以經濟部是希望在這個過程中，能夠兼顧到產業的狀況？"],["連次長錦漳：我們已經極力在爭取了，後來因為委員會是共識決。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，施次長要不要說明一下？"],["施次長文真：因為我們委員會的組成，其實部會有代表，團體有代表，專家學者也有代表，在團體的代表上面有工總、商總，然後有民間團體的代表。以代表不同團體的委員的立場，其實會希望取得一個平衡，所以這個是充分討論的狀況之下，其實環團建議的更高啦！因為以減碳為出發點，我們還是認為考慮到……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過我還是要強調，我們的目的是希望促進減碳，甚至讓產業具有競爭力，所以當然各種的意見都有，但這是一個很重要的核心價值。我們希望未來在面對減碳的狀況下，讓企業能夠順利地轉型度過，讓他們同時具有競爭力，我覺得這樣的思維是要很密切去注意的。"],["施次長文真：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也看到，前經濟部長王美花特別提到，他擔憂的也是我們跟周邊鄰近國家的競爭力，特別是在鋼鐵、石化、水泥，很多都在高雄這邊，所以感受會特別深刻啦！你看課碳費的部分，高雄是最高的，但是臺北是最低的，臺北幾乎沒有，所以當高雄已經承擔了國家這麼重大的責任，它面臨空污、面臨所有這些的時候，我們當然努力想要去面臨這樣的挑戰，但是國家必須要給予一定的支持和協助，才能夠順利地度過挑戰。所以未來在很多的執行細節跟處理一些子法的時候，我希望兩位次長，兩個部會都能夠秉持這樣的原則，我們是在協助企業去度過挑戰，順利地接軌上去，給他們更強的競爭力，讓他們更好，這才是最核心的一個問題，好不好？"],["施次長文真：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我接下來問一下，前王部長認為CBAM有相當的難度，那明年還是要照這樣來推嘛！施次長要不要講一下？"],["施次長文真：我們可能要先從申報開始討論，因為我想王部長應該滿清楚，我們的扣件業出口到歐盟，面臨歐盟的CBAM，其實申報上面確實有很大的困難與挑戰，那也因此我們在國內設計的時候，會參考歐盟在申報的過程當中怎麼樣面臨它的出口國要求它能夠做到公平不歧視的狀況，再來設計我國的，所以這個地方我們會再跟經濟部、財政部還有一些相關的部會去討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在處理過程中，請多跟業界做一些溝通，好不好？"],["施次長文真：會，一定會，我們會跟相關的工會、工總。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，也讓我們知道整個規劃的方向和結果，好不好？"],["施次長文真：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來要請教一下，中鋼、中龍其實都很重要，在高雄到臺中都很重要，這個應該都會列為高碳洩漏風險的產業吧？"],["連次長錦漳：這個應該是在高碳洩漏風險裡面。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個確定會嘛？"],["施次長文真：對，在其他國家都是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果是在這樣的狀況下，包括經濟部也會協助他們做一些自主的部分嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：會，一定會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以對他們的影響應該會降到最低啦！"],["連次長錦漳：會，衝擊會比較小。"],["賴委員瑞隆：給他們更多的時間來處理。另外，開徵碳費對國營事業的部分，這個會有轉嫁到民生的問題，連次長要不要先講一下？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這一次如果透過自主減量，剛才中油跟台電有提到，往下降用優惠費率的話，差不多原來的三分之一啦！這個幅度不是很大，應該不適宜往下去轉嫁。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們請經濟部也要密切注意，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：會，我們會注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要讓這樣的東西對物價的部分產生過大的影響。"],["連次長錦漳：好，這個我們一定會去注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：然後請環境部也要審慎思考。"],["施次長文真：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在整個過程中，要讓它能夠比較平順一點去處理。","再來，我想請教一下，現在碳費預估收入會有60億，照推估會有60億，那現在大家也在關心，我個人是主張收自於哪邊就應該多用於哪邊去做協助，既然它是來自於高碳排的企業跟大戶，應該多用在那個地方去協助他們改善，給他們更多的融資，甚至給他們更多的支持，讓他們在減碳這一塊做得更好，施次長同意這樣的方向嗎？"],["施次長文真：對，因為我們氣候法第三十三條就有說，溫管基金的收入確實要能夠獎勵跟補助有關於事業投資一些減碳的技術，所以這個一定是有減碳需求，或者是有一些減碳技術現在成本比較高需要資金的挹注、協助，我們碳費的收入會優先以減碳為主。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，現在各地方政府有很多是希望讓自己用啦！現在環境部是希望用提計畫的方式嗎？"],["施次長文真：對，因為第一個，我們必須依照財政紀律法的規定，所以很難有一個固定的比例在撥補。第二個，我們也參考其他國家，比如說委員們都很關切我們跟日本、韓國、新加坡的比較，那日本、韓國、新加坡他們收進來的碳定價收入，其實也沒有明定中央跟地方的比例分配。","因為大家的初衷都是希望優先用在減量，有一些地區會需要很大的調適資金，甚至剛剛也有委員很關心原住民強化碳匯的功能也會需要做補助，所以可能我們碳費收入還是會以減量的工作，包括減量計畫、減量技術，還有調適……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過我還是要強調，這個錢不要又進到大水庫裡面去，將來中央或地方怎麼樣用……"],["施次長文真：不會、不會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是我還是要強調，那個部分繳納多的，不應該用於改善不相關的，就像我記得以前空污費的時候，到後來連研討會也給錢，活動也給錢，倒是實質用在改善空污的不一定真的給了。我認為既然要用在哪邊，就像過去的港務基金，港務的周邊道路損害，那就應該用在那個地方，而不是用到非常偏遠不相關的部分，我認為這樣才能夠實質有效去協助。","既然這些碳費，我們看一下，碳費最高的比例在高雄市，再來是雲林，占26%、24%，再來是臺中13%，可是你看新北市是0.63%，臺北市甚至是0，所以我認為在這樣的狀況下，其實應該要把這些資源就用在當地，不管是中央直接做或者是地方政府，應該用在當地，直接改善、直接協助他們減碳的部分，我認為才能達到政策的目標，不要再用到很偏遠、很大水庫的概念，好不好？請兩位次長要朝這個方向好嗎？"],["施次長文真：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["施次長文真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員非常精準有效率的質詢，可以成為楷模。","下一位質詢請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-7","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138702_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就「我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估，及政府協助企\n業因應之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長、財政部首長就\n「我國碳邊境調整機制（CBAM）推動規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138702_00001"}}}