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\"start\": 758.478, \"end\": 758.618, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 758.618, \"end\": 759.158, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 759.158, \"end\": 759.358, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 759.358, \"end\": 759.578, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 759.578, \"end\": 759.679, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 759.679, \"end\": 759.939, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 759.939, \"end\": 760.699, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 760.699, \"end\": 761.139, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 761.139, \"end\": 761.399, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 761.399, \"end\": 761.86, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"臭\", \"start\": 761.86, \"end\": 762.1, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 762.1, \"end\": 762.28, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 762.28, \"end\": 762.54, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 762.54, \"end\": 762.84, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 762.84, \"end\": 763.56, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 763.56, \"end\": 763.901, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 763.901, \"end\": 763.921, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 765.001, \"end\": 765.141, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 765.141, \"end\": 765.241, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 765.241, \"end\": 765.421, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 765.421, \"end\": 765.441, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 765.441, \"end\": 765.461, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 765.461, \"end\": 765.601, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 765.601, \"end\": 765.761, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 765.761, \"end\": 765.821, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 765.821, \"end\": 765.841, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 765.841, \"end\": 765.881, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 765.881, \"end\": 765.901, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,677 --> 00:00:19,385\n誰在摧毀司法的公信力?誰在摧毀司法的公信力?從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚\n\n2\n00:00:20,795 --> 00:00:48,050\n讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是遂行對於各案進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場\n\n3\n00:00:50,287 --> 00:01:12,708\n我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼\n\n4\n00:01:13,851 --> 00:01:39,072\n因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊\n\n5\n00:01:40,000 --> 00:02:04,434\n有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼?變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎?請講制度不要講個案政治力就是摧毀司法信任政治力政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口\n\n6\n00:02:05,649 --> 00:02:24,507\n立法院要自我克責自我檢討真的是讓人忍無可忍下一頁民進黨執政之後面對司法改革我們知道要趕快來趕進度因為我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的\n\n7\n00:02:30,562 --> 00:02:39,695\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有\n\n8\n00:02:41,778 --> 00:02:57,310\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場\n\n9\n00:03:08,601 --> 00:03:32,698\n所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公\n\n10\n00:03:33,539 --> 00:04:00,058\n要讓司法改革往前走民進黨執政之後獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化\n\n11\n00:04:01,397 --> 00:04:27,093\n民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁\n\n12\n00:04:27,913 --> 00:04:41,518\n所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛對不對\n\n13\n00:04:42,771 --> 00:05:08,519\n當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁\n\n14\n00:05:09,864 --> 00:05:33,614\n司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年\n\n15\n00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:58,989\n而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調\n\n16\n00:06:03,044 --> 00:06:24,923\n9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47\n\n17\n00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:35,640\n但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁\n\n18\n00:06:37,134 --> 00:07:03,545\n偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大\n\n19\n00:07:04,949 --> 00:07:21,423\n最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力\n\n20\n00:07:23,175 --> 00:07:43,556\n不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉\n\n21\n00:07:45,418 --> 00:07:46,038\n全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平\n\n22\n00:08:02,745 --> 00:08:02,985\n所以呢下一頁\n\n23\n00:08:33,061 --> 00:08:59,891\n司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢\n\n24\n00:09:01,605 --> 00:09:23,663\n來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的\n\n25\n00:09:29,795 --> 00:09:31,917\n黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對\n\n26\n00:09:39,949 --> 00:09:44,891\n如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的\n\n27\n00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:26,396\n就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等\n\n28\n00:10:27,506 --> 00:10:41,900\n然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊\n\n29\n00:10:48,467 --> 00:10:50,808\n任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中\n\n30\n00:11:18,311 --> 00:11:23,160\n這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?\n\n31\n00:11:27,048 --> 00:11:48,033\n在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案\n\n32\n00:11:53,607 --> 00:12:13,862\n來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係\n\n33\n00:12:16,147 --> 00:12:43,921\n當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外\n\n34\n00:12:45,001 --> 00:12:45,901\n這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好謝謝時間到謝謝謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7677\t19385\t誰在摧毀司法的公信力?誰在摧毀司法的公信力?從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚\n20795\t48050\t讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是遂行對於各案進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場\n50287\t72708\t我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼\n73851\t99072\t因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊\n100000\t124434\t有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼?變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎?請講制度不要講個案政治力就是摧毀司法信任政治力政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口\n125649\t144507\t立法院要自我克責自我檢討真的是讓人忍無可忍下一頁民進黨執政之後面對司法改革我們知道要趕快來趕進度因為我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的\n150562\t159695\t法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有\n161778\t177310\t法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場\n188601\t212698\t所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公\n213539\t240058\t要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化\n241397\t267093\t民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁\n267913\t281518\t所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對\n282771\t308519\t當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁\n309864\t333614\t司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年\n339796\t358989\t而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調\n363044\t384923\t9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47\n387930\t395640\t但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁\n397134\t423545\t偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大\n424949\t441423\t最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力\n443175\t463556\t不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉\n465418\t466038\t全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平\n482745\t482985\t所以呢 下一頁\n513061\t539891\t司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢\n541605\t563663\t來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的\n569795\t571917\t黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對\n579949\t584891\t如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的\n608530\t626396\t就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等\n627506\t641900\t然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊\n648467\t650808\t任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中\n678311\t683160\t這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?\n687048\t708033\t在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案\n713607\t733862\t來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係\n736147\t763921\t當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外\n765001\t765901\t這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好 謝謝時間到 謝謝謝謝部長\n","txt":"誰在摧毀司法的公信力?誰在摧毀司法的公信力?從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚\n讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是遂行對於各案進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場\n我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼\n因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊\n有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼?變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎?請講制度不要講個案政治力就是摧毀司法信任政治力政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口\n立法院要自我克責自我檢討真的是讓人忍無可忍下一頁民進黨執政之後面對司法改革我們知道要趕快來趕進度因為我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場\n所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公\n要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化\n民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁\n所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對\n當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁\n司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年\n而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調\n9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47\n但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁\n偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大\n最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力\n不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉\n全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平\n所以呢 下一頁\n司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢\n來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的\n黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對\n如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的\n就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等\n然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊\n任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中\n這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?\n在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案\n來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係\n當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外\n這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好 謝謝時間到 謝謝謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.677 --> 00:19.385\n誰在摧毀司法的公信力?誰在摧毀司法的公信力?從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚\n\n00:20.795 --> 00:48.050\n讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是遂行對於各案進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場\n\n00:50.287 --> 01:12.708\n我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼\n\n01:13.851 --> 01:39.072\n因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊\n\n01:40.000 --> 02:04.434\n有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼?變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎?請講制度不要講個案政治力就是摧毀司法信任政治力政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口\n\n02:05.649 --> 02:24.507\n立法院要自我克責自我檢討真的是讓人忍無可忍下一頁民進黨執政之後面對司法改革我們知道要趕快來趕進度因為我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的\n\n02:30.562 --> 02:39.695\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有\n\n02:41.778 --> 02:57.310\n法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場\n\n03:08.601 --> 03:32.698\n所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公\n\n03:33.539 --> 04:00.058\n要讓司法改革往前走民進黨執政之後獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化\n\n04:01.397 --> 04:27.093\n民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁\n\n04:27.913 --> 04:41.518\n所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛對不對\n\n04:42.771 --> 05:08.519\n當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁\n\n05:09.864 --> 05:33.614\n司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年\n\n05:39.796 --> 05:58.989\n而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調\n\n06:03.044 --> 06:24.923\n9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47\n\n06:27.930 --> 06:35.640\n但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁\n\n06:37.134 --> 07:03.545\n偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大\n\n07:04.949 --> 07:21.423\n最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力\n\n07:23.175 --> 07:43.556\n不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉\n\n07:45.418 --> 07:46.038\n全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平\n\n08:02.745 --> 08:02.985\n所以呢下一頁\n\n08:33.061 --> 08:59.891\n司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢\n\n09:01.605 --> 09:23.663\n來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的\n\n09:29.795 --> 09:31.917\n黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對\n\n09:39.949 --> 09:44.891\n如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的\n\n10:08.530 --> 10:26.396\n就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等\n\n10:27.506 --> 10:41.900\n然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊\n\n10:48.467 --> 10:50.808\n任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中\n\n11:18.311 --> 11:23.160\n這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?\n\n11:27.048 --> 11:48.033\n在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案\n\n11:53.607 --> 12:13.862\n來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係\n\n12:16.147 --> 12:43.921\n當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外\n\n12:45.001 --> 12:45.901\n這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好謝謝時間到謝謝謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.677,"end":19.385,"text":"誰在摧毀司法的公信力?誰在摧毀司法的公信力?從今天的質詢現場我們看得非常清楚"},{"start":20.795,"end":48.05,"text":"讓政治力介入司法偵辦讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討事實上是遂行對於各案進行政治攻防的場域就在今天此時此刻的司法法制委員會就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場"},{"start":50.287,"end":72.708,"text":"我覺得這一屆的立法院真的是素質無比之低啊這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊抱歉我是司法法制委員會的我真的要承認這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的為什麼"},{"start":73.851,"end":99.072,"text":"因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台假借著公器都在介入個案都在討論個案如果今天是要討論偵查不公開好我們就制度面來談可以把制度做得更好那為什麼我剛剛坐在台下我真的是不忍阻堵啊"},{"start":100,"end":124.434,"text":"有委員公然針對個案今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成什麼?變成柯文哲變成冷錢包變成橘子可以這樣嗎?請講制度不要講個案政治力就是摧毀司法信任政治力政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口"},{"start":125.649,"end":144.507,"text":"立法院要自我克責自我檢討真的是讓人忍無可忍下一頁民進黨執政之後面對司法改革我們知道要趕快來趕進度因為我從小到大就聽過一句話歡迎是國民黨開的"},{"start":150.562,"end":159.695,"text":"法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候誰講的那個歷史現場你有印象嗎我忘掉的是很久以前有"},{"start":161.778,"end":177.31,"text":"法院是國民黨開的這句話是民國84年7月當時的國民黨中央黨部秘書長徐水德他在安撫黨內國民黨籍涉入會選的同志他在安撫他們民國84年7月這個是歷史現場"},{"start":188.601,"end":212.698,"text":"所以因為有這樣子的政治介入司法讓台灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公這種陰霾我們想要去改變它我們想要去洗刷它這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話我們現在加倍努力要洗刷這種司法不公"},{"start":213.539,"end":240.058,"text":"要讓司法改革往前走 民進黨執政之後 獲得政權之後司法改革國事會議 民進黨前前後後開了40多場我們為了改革司法 我們也建立了國民法官的制度我們也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力 當然非常遺憾在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法 來癱瘓好不容易我們逐步改進改良的憲法審查的法庭化"},{"start":241.397,"end":267.093,"text":"民進黨執政中推動轉型正義去平撫非常多司法不公的案件高達6000多件這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公進行改革我們也許做得不夠但沒有辦法一步到位但是我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任下一頁"},{"start":267.913,"end":281.518,"text":"所以針對偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正其實也是民進黨執政後召開40多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程嘛 對不對"},{"start":282.771,"end":308.519,"text":"當然我要說做得不夠好我們來檢討否則如果有任何消息的走漏今天就成為在立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案繼續來用政治力來摧毀司法如果我們偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話真的是司法改革就永無寧日啊我真的與眾心長喔下一頁"},{"start":309.864,"end":333.614,"text":"司改漸入佳境這個是2023年我剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的司法不公的這種負面印象2023年司法院公佈的近10年民眾對於法官信任的程度好不容易慢慢爬升10年來我們對司法的信任國人來到58.7%成長了14%為了這14%我們努力了10年"},{"start":339.796,"end":358.989,"text":"而不信任度從49.9降到34.7降了15%也是我們努力一點一滴改去匯聚的成果但是現在下一頁因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件這是這段時間新的民調這是民間單位的民調"},{"start":363.044,"end":384.923,"text":"9月份台灣民意基金會的民調對於司法沒信心居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易提升的司法信任度來到5乘9現在又掉下來了沒信心來到4乘9當然10月份同樣一個基金會在座的一次民調有信心又回到47"},{"start":387.93,"end":395.64,"text":"但是我要說為什麼人民對於司法的公信力這樣起起伏伏破口在哪裡下一頁"},{"start":397.134,"end":423.545,"text":"偵查不公開的壓力破口就是當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討是可能有從檢調內部這當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的我們自我苛責自我要求自我檢視但是媒體基於社會的公知權他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件這是他們的職責但是偵查不公開真正最大"},{"start":424.949,"end":441.423,"text":"最猛、最可怕的壓力撲口就是政治力您同意嗎?剛剛一直在逼問你針對個案回答你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力?這個很...有莫大的壓力"},{"start":443.175,"end":463.556,"text":"不過是因為跟委員報告我對我們的偵查團隊我是有信心我們不認為我們是有這個洩密所以其實在這邊我是可以很有信心的去跟委員做一個報告因為可以接觸到這些偵查的內容程序的不是只有剪掉臉"},{"start":465.418,"end":466.038,"text":"全部都歸給你們來承認太不公平"},{"start":482.745,"end":482.985,"text":"所以呢 下一頁"},{"start":513.061,"end":539.891,"text":"司法信任度積累破功就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會對於檢調辦案說三道次﹖下一頁針對臨北好遊自導自演的這個雞蛋案藍白﹖國民黨也好民眾黨也好在偵查期間無地放矢"},{"start":541.605,"end":563.663,"text":"來影響辦案這是政治力下一頁司法破功的政治力我們來看看偵查不公開黃國昌委員公然在對於小草的宣講的時候針對政治陷阱案他說你調查局的人憑什麼問周瑜秀就是民政黨秘書長你為什麼要退出民進黨這是誰洩露的"},{"start":569.795,"end":571.917,"text":"黃國昌他憑什麼知道周宜秀被問了什麼這就是你剛說的嘛被告或當事人被約談的他自己去講的嘛對不對"},{"start":579.949,"end":584.891,"text":"如果就黃國昌說調查局的人問周瑜秀為什麼退出民進黨錯了錯了其實是逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清辦案的人問的是周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨從來沒有問他你何時退出民進黨那如果用這個個案這個狀況來講請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容就這個個案會是誰洩漏的"},{"start":608.53,"end":626.396,"text":"就是周玉秀本人說給黃國昌立委聽的嘛然後黃國昌立委就拿來牛頭不對馬嘴然後來攻擊檢調人員這就是一個現實的例子你剛剛解釋很久偵查不公開有消息走漏可能是來自於這些當事人等"},{"start":627.506,"end":641.9,"text":"然後還被惡意拿來扭曲啊這就是一個鐵證啊黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開政治力來介入司法最糟的負面案例不是嗎在下一頁我認為民眾黨的委員請自治啊"},{"start":648.467,"end":650.808,"text":"任何一個涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中"},{"start":678.311,"end":683.16,"text":"這樣子的說法您同意嗎?是不是影響司法辦案?"},{"start":687.048,"end":708.033,"text":"在整個一個偵辦犯罪能夠一個有一個乾淨的一個純淨的空間好我時間到了最後一頁其實我很多頁沒得講我覺得非常遺憾你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力更重要的是連對岸都來對於我們台灣的司法施以壓力了這是國台辦的新聞稿他們針對單一個案"},{"start":713.607,"end":733.862,"text":"來批判我們的檢調辦案請問中國有台灣的治理的統轄權管轄權嗎中國憑什麼對台灣的司法單一個案來說三道四還說這是綠色恐怖還說這是在追殺是賴清德在追殺不支持台獨的人士這個個案金華城案跟台獨有什麼關係"},{"start":736.147,"end":763.921,"text":"當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案是發這種新聞稿做這種聲明請問你是不是要抗議部長針對這件事情這個是我們在記國家的司法權的一個行使不容許嘛所以現在我們的司法面對的就是國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極用單一個案來鬥臭司法而在境外"},{"start":765.001,"end":765.901,"text":"這部分說有這種的具體時程我們會研辦好 謝謝時間到 謝謝謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時9分）謝謝主席，請部長。誰在摧毀司法的公信力？誰在摧毀司法的公信力？從今天的質詢現場，我們看得非常清楚，讓政治力介入司法偵辦，讓政治力假藉著來進行偵查不公開制度的精進檢討，事實上是遂行對於個案進行政治攻防的場域。就在今天，此時此刻的司法法制委員會，就是摧毀司法信任的犯罪現場。","我覺得這一屆的立法院，素質真是無比之低！這一屆的司法法制委員會又是素質低當中的更低啊！抱歉，我是司法法制委員會的，我真的要承認，這一屆的司法法制委員會是歷屆國會司法委員會素質最低的，為什麼？因為從排案、審案到委員站上質詢台，都在假藉公器介入個案，都在討論個案。如果今天要討論偵查不公開，我們就制度面來談，可以把制度做得更好，可是我剛剛坐在台下，真的是不忍卒睹，有委員公然針對個案，今天司法法制委員會的關鍵字變成柯文哲、冷錢包、橘子，可以這樣嗎？請講制度，不要講個案，政治力就是摧毀司法信任，政客的介入就是偵查不公開的最大破口。立法院要自我課責，自我檢討，真的是讓人忍無可忍。","民進黨執政之後，面對司法改革，我們知道要趕快來趕進度，因為我從小到大就聽過一句話──法院是國民黨開的──請問部長，法院是國民黨開的這句話是什麼時候、誰講的？那個歷史現場你有印象嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我忘掉了，那個是很久以前有……"],["吳委員思瑤：法院是國民黨開的，這句話是民國84年7月國民黨中央黨部秘書長許水德在安撫國民黨籍涉入賄選的同志不用怕，法院是執政黨開的，法院是國民黨開的，你們賄選沒關係，不用怕。民國84年7月，這個是歷史現場。因為這樣子政治介入司法，讓臺灣數十年來一直擺脫不掉司法不公的這種陰霾。我們想要去改變它，我們想要去洗刷它，這是不論誰執政都要努力去做的，就因為過去國民黨的秘書長公然講這句話，我們現在加倍努力，要洗刷這種司法不公，要讓司法改革往前走。","民進黨執政之後，獲得政權之後，民進黨前前後後開了四十多場司法改革國是會議。為了改革司法，我們建立了國民法官的制度，也針對憲法法庭的法庭化做出努力；非常遺憾的是，在野黨委員也提案要修憲法訴訟法，來癱瘓我們好不容易逐步改進、改良的憲法審查法庭化。民進黨執政之後，我們推動轉型正義，去平撫高達六千多件，非常多司法不公的案件，這些都是這些年來我們努力要去洗刷司法不公，所進行的改革。我們也許做得不夠，沒有辦法一步到位，但我們就是拼命努力讓司法真的可以讓人民信任。","偵查不公開的作業辦法再次修正，其實也是民進黨執政後，召開四十多場司改國是會議之後的一個重要的進程。當然，我要說做得不夠好，我們來檢討，否則如果有任何消息的走漏，今天就成為立法院在野黨的委員拿著偵查不公開的這些東西來影響個案，繼續用政治力來摧毀司法。如果偵查不公開繼續被這樣誤用、惡用的話，司法改革就真的永無寧日。我是語重心長！","司改漸入佳境。我剛剛說我們這麼多年來努力去洗刷司法是國民黨開的，司法不公的，這種負面印象。司法院2023年公布近十年民眾對於法官信任的程度，好不容易慢慢爬升，十年來，國人對司法的信任來到58.7%，成長了14%，為了這14%，我們努力了十年；而不信任度從49.9降到34.7，降了15%，也是我們努力一點一滴改，去匯聚的成果。","現在因為在野黨的主席涉入了一些案件，我們看民間單位在這段時間所做的新民調─臺灣民意基金會9月份的民調，對司法沒信心的比例，居然又從我剛剛說的好不容易來到五成九的司法信任度，現在又掉下來了，沒信心的部分來到四成九；同一個基金會10月份再做的一次民調，有信心又回到47%。為什麼人民對於司法公信力這樣起起伏伏？破口在哪裡？偵查不公開的壓力破口──當然檢調內部該檢討就檢討，可能有從檢調內部，當然就是我們偵查不公開作業要點要規範的，我們自我課責，自我要求，自我檢視；但是媒體基於社會的公知權，他們當然也會想方設法去了解社會重大案件，這是他們的職責，但是偵查不公開真正最大、最猛、最可怕的壓力破口就是政治力。您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：尊重委員的說法。"],["吳委員思瑤：剛剛有人一直在逼問你，針對個案回答，你有沒有承受到莫大的壓力？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有莫大的壓力。"],["吳委員思瑤：這就是政治力……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過要跟委員報告，我對我們的偵查團隊是有信心的，我們不認為我們有洩密，所以我在這邊可以很有信心的去跟委員報告，因為可以接觸到這些偵查內容、程序的，不是只有檢調人員……"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括被告、證人，當然第六條裡面有些被告等等，其他沒有規範當有洩密罪的這些犯罪的規範主體的，有可能會講出去，所以我們在……"],["吳委員思瑤：全部都歸給你們來承擔，太不公平！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且媒體很多的報導，可能是捕風捉影─他得到的是不是有一個？或是問他一句話，就整個衍生出很多的東西，因為他們也會做功課嘛！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您可以管理、督導的，是我們檢調同仁─司法工作者……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我會約束他們。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他有太多可能洩密的壓力破口，你沒有辦法管得到！"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括提審、羈押程序的那一段，我沒辦法處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。所以，司法信任度積累破功，就在這一屆的司法法制委員會史上最惡！國民黨的委員公開針對楊文科案召開記者會，對於檢調辦案說三道四；針對Linbay好油自導自演的雞蛋案，藍白─國民黨也好，民眾黨也好，在偵查期間無的放矢來影響辦案，這是政治力！","司法破功的政治力，我們來看看偵查不公開！黃國昌委員在對小草宣講的時候，公然針對政治獻金案說：調查局的人憑什麼問周榆修（民眾黨秘書長），為什麼要退出民進黨？這是誰洩漏的？黃國昌怎麼知道周榆修被問了什麼？這就是你剛說的，被告或當事人被約談，自己去講的嘛！對不對？如果就黃國昌所說的，調查局的人問周榆修為什麼退出民進黨？錯了，錯了，其實是在逼得你們發新聞稿來澄清─辦案的人問的是，周秘書長你何時加入民眾黨，從來沒有問他，你何時退出民進黨。如果用這個個案、這個狀況來講，請問誰去洩漏了被詢問的內容？就是周榆修本人說給黃國昌立委聽，然後黃國昌立委牛頭不對馬嘴，拿來攻擊檢調人員。這就是一個現實的例子，就是你剛剛解釋很久，偵查不公開，有消息走漏，可能是來自於這些當事人等，然後還被惡意拿來扭曲，這就是一個鐵證啊！黃國昌還敢講偵查不公開？你自己就是一個破壞偵查不公開、政治力介入司法最糟的負面案例，不是嗎？","民眾黨的委員請自制啊！針對單一個案，你可以關心柯文哲，為他捍衛清白，沒有問題！你們有絕對的權利去捍衛清白。但是去操縱民粹、動員，包括黃國昌說柯文哲的清白是臺灣人民的未來，您認同這句話嗎？涉嫌犯案者現在在檢調偵辦當中，這樣子的說法您同意嗎？是不是影響司法辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望在整個偵辦犯罪能夠有一個乾淨、純淨的空間。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我的時間到了。最後一頁，其實我很多頁沒得講。我覺得非常遺憾，你們現在要面對的不只是無限的政治力來對你們施以壓力，更重要的是連對岸都來對我們臺灣的司法施以壓力了。這是國台辦的新聞稿，他們針對單一個案來批判我們的檢調辦案。請問中國有臺灣治理的統轄權、管轄權嗎？中國憑什麼對臺灣的司法單一個案來說三道四？還說這是綠色恐怖，還說這是賴清德在追殺不支持臺獨的人士？這個個案京華城案跟臺獨有什麼關係？當您看到國台辦對於我們的檢調辦案發這種新聞稿、做這種聲明，請問你是不是要抗議？部長，針對這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是我們基於國家司法權的行使，不容他人……"],["吳委員思瑤：不容許嘛！所以現在我們的司法面對的就是，國內有在野黨的委員無所不用其極，用單一個案來鬥臭司法，而在境外也有協力者一起來鬥臭司法，中國也可以把臺灣的司法查弊來搞認知作戰，這就是我們共同面對的困難，後面部分我就沒有辦法提了。偵查不公開我們還是想方設法盡量做，如果有任何個案涉及檢調內部可能的洩漏，該查就查，該辦就辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有這種的具體事證，我們會嚴辦。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，時間到。"],["主席：部長，等一下我質詢的時候，我會跟你談論什麼叫干涉個案。你剛剛在那邊胡說八道！等一下我們再來講。部長請回。","我們現在先處理臨時提案。請宣讀。","案由：","偵查不公開作業辦法於108年新增第11條，規範全國各地檢署及警政署、調查局、廉政署，要組成偵查不公開檢討小組，並定期公布檢討報告以及相關查辦及處分情形之資料。","同辦法第10條第5項更明定各機關應設置適當處所作為媒體採訪地點，並應劃定採訪禁制區。","經查，自108年7月起迄至112年底，列入全國各地檢察署之新聞檢討總件數共7,255件，年平均數計1,612件，實際列入檢討件數382件，而今（113）年上半年，新聞檢討件數已達2,035件，實際列入檢討391件，然5年來，均無任何一位檢察署內部人員受到查處。","復查，從108年爆發之潤寅涉嫌詐貸案、109年之立委涉嫌集體收賄案、111年高虹安涉嫌貪瀆案、112年ACE王牌交易所涉嫌詐欺案、今年鄭文燦涉嫌貪瀆案等，均不乏有媒體「依據知情人士透漏」報導搜索、偵訊細節，甚或揭露手機對話內容，更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形，此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關，衡情，若非傳遞訊息予媒體，媒體應難以獲悉。","再查，近期因特定媒體屢屢以「知情人士指出」為由，針對特定案情做系列報導，遭外界戲稱「偵查大公開」，經台灣民意基金會9月民調顯示有超過500萬人認為有不公平審判情形，並經同一基金會於10月最新民調顯示，上漲約莫達660萬人認為審判不公平，已重創司法威信。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告，內容應併含：","1.研議案件「起訴後」，得公開之新聞檢討報告項目，適度揭露檢討過程、結論（不僅僅是檢討件數、處分人次，還有如何避免再度發生），非僅單純之統計數字。始能澄清檢討之力度，讓國人看到法務部捍衛程序正義之魄力與決心，並還給檢察官乾淨的司法環境。","2.研議全國各地檢及所屬偵查機關，強化「適法性監督」，針對「已偵結」之案件，除各機關檢討小組外，建立高等檢察署之覆核機制。包括各偵查機關檢討小組審議案件時，若所檢討之案件有陳情人（檢舉人），研議是否請陳情人或所委任之人到會陳述意見之機會，並將審議結果及理由以書面告知。","3.指定由「天下第一檢」美譽之臺灣臺北地方檢察署做為貫徹「偵查不公開」制度之示範機關，劃設採訪禁制區，落實門禁，將拜訪之外界人士，包括媒體記者進出管制區登記，並設記者接待室，獨立於檢察官辦公空間處所，及建立其他防範違反偵查不公開制度之具體措施。再請全國各檢察署檢察長檢討後，由立法院司法及法制委員會擇期考察。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　羅智強"],["主席：請問各位委員，就臨時提案的部分有沒有要補充說明？文字部分有跟機關溝通過了。好，請說。"],["沈委員發惠：文字有做過修改，我是可以接受，但是在第4段一一點名個案，我是覺得是不是可以修改？"],["主席：哪一個？"],["沈委員發惠：第4段：「復查，從108年爆發……」這些案子，我是覺得在臨時提案裡面是不是不要去指明哪一些個案比較好？如果說：「經查，自108年起諸多重大案件……」，以這樣子的方式來呈現？你在這裡把高虹安等人的名字寫上去，我覺得不厚道。我們提案如果不是必要的文字，我是希望能夠把這些個案的名稱做一些修改。"],["主席：請問其他委員有沒有什麼意見？"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、召委也是檢察官出身的，我們覺得最後要求的做法經過這樣的修改，我們是可以接受。但是你在底下的3點：「內容應併含：……3.指定由『天下第一檢』美譽之臺灣臺北地方……」，主席將心比心，所謂的美譽跟第一檢，或直接指明哪一個檢察署，其實我們可以要求法務部擇定地方檢察署來落實這個案子，是不是這樣比較……我們覺得比較可以……"],["主席：跟鍾召委報告一下，因為法務部已經講過很多次會這麼做了，但是永遠都沒有成果出來。因為北檢目前是重大案子最多的地方，所以我們才會希望由北檢來作為示範的地檢署，讓別的地檢署可以跟著一起做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解。因為過去本席在關心保單解約償債的問題，我們也知道北檢跟士林地檢他們都承受了相當大的案量。考察各地方法院，我們都能夠體恤臺北地方法院跟士林地方法院民事執行處這樣的壓力，我們去分散。如果用這個角度來考量，士林地方檢察署相對於北檢是否會是更適切的一個地方？"],["主席：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是參考啦！因為我們要考量到這些。沒有錯！提案人認為重中之重，最多的、媒體最集中的，我們就先來做。但是某個角度上來講，要考量到如果有其他比較有能力落實具體做好，而且能避免偵查不公開在媒體的新聞報導之下被破功的，我們是不是有這個考量？建請提案人可以參酌。"],["主席：因為我也是提案人，所以我跟各位委員報告一下。剛剛鍾召委有提到北檢確實業務量非常重，但是以我自己的檢察經驗，能夠落實這樣子，反而是降低檢察官的工作量，他不需要再去應付很多跑到辦公室的記者，這個確實是可以讓工作單純。當然我是以我自己的工作經驗去做這樣的思考，目前當然北檢還是重大案件比較多的地方。","請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委。我這樣建議，結論我遵照大家的意思，但是從第4段：「復查，從108年……」這一整段我建議把它給刪除掉；然後「併含：……3.指定由『天下第一檢』美譽的……」，我覺得這些都是贅語。我之所以講第4段要刪掉的原因是，我不只一次在司法法制委員會提出來，偵查不公開不是這幾年才發生的事，從以前我對這個就很感冒，不管是誰執政，我覺得都不應該去違背。因為第一個，法有明文；第二個，整個法務部三申五令要求偵查機關，你掌握有更高的偵查訊息，你有這樣一個優越的地位，不應該隨便去揭露。這個偵查主體裡面幾乎大家都是學有專精的，都是專業人士，要比外界更知道這樣的分寸。所以我針對的是沒有必要去講到從108年開始這幾年，我是覺得整段都劃掉，這個是長期以來就存在。這是第一個請大家做一個參考。","第二個，要指定臺北地檢署就臺北地檢署啦！不要去說什麼它是「天下第一檢」。臺北地檢署當然素質很高啊！也很累啊！沒有錯啊！可是我們在立法院的文字裡面，我們要的話，就直接做成決議，就由臺北地檢署當示範機關，我沒意見，但是整段還要刻意……現在這個案子不是就是臺北地檢署在偵辦嗎？它本身又是當事人啊！"],["主席：跟莊委員報告，我主要是看到，因為這一次的北檢王檢察長上任的時候，他的宣誓裡面其中一個就是要落實偵查不公開。是因為他有特別宣誓，我才把它加進來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委，我懂你的意思，你都不用聽那些啦！我們都不用聽那些，我們要的都是看結果啦！偵查不公開我們都已經講了多少年了。今天早上我都很含蓄耶！媽媽嘴那個案子當年你也是屬於偵查的團隊。我只是講結論而已，你知道嗎？"],["主席：沒有啦！你們弄錯了啦！莊委員，剛剛你剛講那個，我想就讓你講沒關係。其實當年弄錯的檢察官是別人，我是進去當救援投手……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["主席：所以你們不要故意混在一起！"],["莊委員瑞雄：No，No，No，那你又錯了！"],["主席：被調查的也是另一位檢察官，你又扯我幹什麼！"],["莊委員瑞雄：那你又錯了！"],["主席：好啦！隨便你啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的質詢裡面沒有一句話涉及到污衊你，不要那麼緊張好不好？"],["主席：好啦！那我再跟你報告一下，為什麼我們會說北檢，而不是要求全國？就是因為我們認為說全國這樣子太辛苦了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是！北檢我沒意見，我的意思就是說我們立法院的文字不用刻意去講說指定由「天下第一檢」，講這一些？它搞不好是天下第二檢啊！"],["主席：好，沒問題，這個是檢察官內部的說法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：搞不好士林地檢署認為它才是第一啊！搞不好我們屏東地檢署說我才是天下第一檢啊！對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員，這是檢察官內部的說法，沒關係。我剛剛有聽到莊委員的兩項建議，跟沈委員的其中一項是一樣。","請沈委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：我簡單的意見，因為畢竟我不是本會委員，所以我想說先留個紀錄。第一個，我贊成剛剛莊委員講的，在第4段說這個是哪一些案件，其實這個沒有什麼必要啦！我覺得是可以拿掉。不然的話，鄭文燦這個案件，說真的，其實我看在座也有蠻多人發表過意見。","第二個，我要提到的就是，因為偵查不公開，今年還是去年的時候有幾位檢察官有寫過博士論文，裡面常提到媒體之所以能夠取得資訊，除了第3點這邊提到的，就是媒體直接跟檢察官接觸之外，有很多的情形都有透過中間人。中間人千千百百種，法警其實也是其中一種。所以如果未來真的要針對這個做規範的話，可能我覺得針對中間人做規範是還蠻重要的。我想說先留個紀錄，因為這個再加上去，今天這個臨時提案應該就討論不完了。","第二個，我覺得很重要的就是，我看到之前鄭文燦的案件在3個月以前的時候，我記得吳宗憲召委也有在媒體上發言，對不對？所以就是已經離開的人，其實照理他也會在這一個規範裡面。所以如果是這個樣子的話，這一些到底有誰，可能未來需要做一個盤點。給一個參考，先這樣子，謝謝。"],["主席：好，了解，我懂這個意思。因為偵查不公開主要是起訴前，所以我說這部分我們可能到時候再精進一下，看文字部分要怎麼去修正。","因為時間的關係，我們是不是請法務部按照剛剛各位委員的建議，提出一個修正的文字？就我們現在這個臨時提案部分看要怎麼樣，我們再跟助理那邊去做一下討論，然後提出一個雙方都可以接受……"],["沈委員發惠：我想不用了，我想這邊就……因為主席是提案人……"],["主席：直接處理嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：對，直接處理。我們就把第4段整段刪掉，看你們大家覺得有沒有意見，或是要怎麼修改文字？直接處理。"],["主席：第4段整段刪掉是什麼意思？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用提到個案。"],["主席：個案的部分？我覺得這個沒問題，只要有個案的部分，就是按照剛剛沈委員的意見，就是說因為近年來有多件……"],["沈委員發惠：諸多案件。"],["主席：這個OK。"],["翁委員曉玲：幾位委員的建議就是認為第4段不要把具體個案詳列出來，我們的重點是在於要建立示範區，所以第4段就改成：「復查，從108年起有諸多重大刑事案件……均不乏有媒體」等等，就是這樣修。"],["主席：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後在最後建議的第3點，大家認為「由『天下第一檢』美譽」這幾個字寫得不是很好，其實它就是嘲諷的意味嘛！我也可以同意把這幾個字刪掉，就直接指定臺灣臺北地檢署作為偵查不公開的示範機關。是不是按照我們的意思？"],["主席：好，那是不是就依照各位委員的這個方式？"],["沈委員發惠：可以，同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我很少同意翁曉玲講的話，今天完全同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：我也很少同意你們說的，但是我想我們的重點在於要建立一個示範機關，好不好？"],["主席：好，那我們就依剛剛各位委員的高見辦理。","麻煩就再宣告一次。","臨時提案第4點修正為：「復查，近年諸多重大刑事案件均不乏有媒體「依據知情人士透漏」報導搜索、偵訊細節，甚或揭露手機對話內容，更有搜索現場畫面外洩等情形，此類資訊均掌握在司法偵查機關，衡情，若非傳遞訊息予媒體，媒體應難以獲悉。」併含第3點修正為：「指定臺灣臺北地方檢察署做為貫徹『偵查不公開』制度之示範機關」其餘相同。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　羅智強"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們是不是就按照修正後的提案通過？謝謝各位。","下一位請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。翁曉玲委員詢答完畢之後，因為快12點了，我們就休息5分鐘，再繼續進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}}