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\"製\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 201.443, \"end\": 201.663, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 201.663, \"end\": 202.184, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"虛\"}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 202.184, \"end\": 202.484, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 202.484, \"end\": 202.864, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 202.864, \"end\": 202.944, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 202.944, \"end\": 203.164, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"透\", \"start\": 203.164, \"end\": 204.945, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 204.945, \"end\": 205.405, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 205.405, \"end\": 205.485, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 205.485, \"end\": 205.605, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 205.605, \"end\": 205.766, \"score\": 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\"他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 701.789, \"end\": 702.389, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 702.389, \"end\": 702.569, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 702.569, \"end\": 702.909, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 702.909, \"end\": 703.17, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 703.17, \"end\": 703.53, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 703.53, \"end\": 703.73, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 703.73, \"end\": 703.87, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 703.87, \"end\": 704.49, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 704.49, \"end\": 704.63, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 704.63, \"end\": 704.91, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 704.91, \"end\": 705.13, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 716.874, \"end\": 717.395, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 717.395, \"end\": 717.535, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 717.535, \"end\": 717.715, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 717.715, \"end\": 717.815, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 717.815, \"end\": 717.935, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 717.935, \"end\": 718.115, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 718.115, \"end\": 718.355, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 718.355, \"end\": 718.375, \"score\": 0.998}]}, {\"start\": 718.895, \"end\": 742.383, \"text\": \"所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 718.895, \"end\": 718.975, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": 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00:00:40,316\n好謝謝齁那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說\n\n3\n00:00:40,996 --> 00:01:05,886\n他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何\n\n4\n00:01:07,738 --> 00:01:33,652\n跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造\n\n5\n00:01:34,933 --> 00:01:59,394\n我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在\n\n6\n00:02:00,815 --> 00:02:02,377\n即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」\n\n7\n00:02:24,298 --> 00:02:34,430\n所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事\n\n8\n00:02:37,429 --> 00:02:58,191\n事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握\n\n9\n00:02:58,852 --> 00:03:26,266\n那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清\n\n10\n00:03:26,986 --> 00:03:56,292\n我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做\n\n11\n00:03:56,772 --> 00:03:58,154\n這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息\n\n12\n00:04:14,574 --> 00:04:34,032\n這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到\n\n13\n00:04:34,472 --> 00:04:53,044\n而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色\n\n14\n00:04:54,825 --> 00:05:20,841\n就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛\n\n15\n00:05:23,317 --> 00:05:51,054\n交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡\n\n16\n00:05:52,194 --> 00:06:14,487\n跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的\n\n17\n00:06:15,387 --> 00:06:35,654\n包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點\n\n18\n00:06:36,474 --> 00:07:00,829\n我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下\n\n19\n00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:26,375\n在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個\n\n20\n00:07:28,775 --> 00:07:49,403\n整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資\n\n21\n00:07:50,983 --> 00:08:08,794\n伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾\n\n22\n00:08:10,094 --> 00:08:38,708\n台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法\n\n23\n00:08:39,028 --> 00:09:00,062\n現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴\n\n24\n00:09:00,822 --> 00:09:26,898\n所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告\n\n25\n00:09:27,978 --> 00:09:50,110\n謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估\n\n26\n00:09:50,430 --> 00:10:05,716\n因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好\n\n27\n00:10:05,916 --> 00:10:23,718\n沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會\n\n28\n00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:54,812\n非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關\n\n29\n00:10:55,532 --> 00:11:18,810\n但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業\n\n30\n00:11:23,933 --> 00:11:40,905\n所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本\n\n31\n00:11:41,789 --> 00:11:58,375\n他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法\n\n32\n00:11:58,895 --> 00:12:22,383\n所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢\n\n33\n00:12:23,163 --> 00:12:40,139\n如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題\n\n34\n00:12:43,863 --> 00:13:00,284\n就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判\n\n35\n00:13:01,185 --> 00:13:22,500\n所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1558\t12023\t好 謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長\n17087\t40316\t好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說\n40996\t65886\t他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何\n67738\t93652\t跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造\n94933\t119394\t我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在\n120815\t122377\t即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」\n144298\t154430\t所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事\n157429\t178191\t事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握\n178852\t206266\t那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清\n206986\t236292\t我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做\n236772\t238154\t這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息\n254574\t274032\t這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到\n274472\t293044\t而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色\n294825\t320841\t就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛\n323317\t351054\t交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡\n352194\t374487\t跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的\n375387\t395654\t包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點\n396474\t420829\t我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下\n423010\t446375\t在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的 謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個\n448775\t469403\t整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資\n470983\t488794\t伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾\n490094\t518708\t台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法\n519028\t540062\t現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴\n540822\t566898\t所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告\n567978\t590110\t謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估\n590430\t605716\t因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好\n605916\t623718\t沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會\n625760\t654812\t非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關\n655532\t678810\t但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業\n683933\t700905\t所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本\n701789\t718375\t他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法\n718895\t742383\t所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢\n743163\t760139\t如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題\n763863\t780284\t就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判\n781185\t802500\t所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長\n好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說\n他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何\n跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造\n我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在\n即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」\n所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事\n事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握\n那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清\n我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做\n這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息\n這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到\n而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色\n就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛\n交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡\n跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的\n包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點\n我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下\n在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的 謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個\n整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資\n伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾\n台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法\n現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴\n所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告\n謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估\n因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好\n沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會\n非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關\n但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業\n所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本\n他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法\n所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢\n如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題\n就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判\n所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.558 --> 00:12.023\n好謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長\n\n00:17.087 --> 00:40.316\n好謝謝齁那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說\n\n00:40.996 --> 01:05.886\n他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何\n\n01:07.738 --> 01:33.652\n跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造\n\n01:34.933 --> 01:59.394\n我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在\n\n02:00.815 --> 02:02.377\n即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」\n\n02:24.298 --> 02:34.430\n所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事\n\n02:37.429 --> 02:58.191\n事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握\n\n02:58.852 --> 03:26.266\n那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清\n\n03:26.986 --> 03:56.292\n我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做\n\n03:56.772 --> 03:58.154\n這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息\n\n04:14.574 --> 04:34.032\n這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到\n\n04:34.472 --> 04:53.044\n而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色\n\n04:54.825 --> 05:20.841\n就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛\n\n05:23.317 --> 05:51.054\n交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡\n\n05:52.194 --> 06:14.487\n跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的\n\n06:15.387 --> 06:35.654\n包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點\n\n06:36.474 --> 07:00.829\n我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下\n\n07:03.010 --> 07:26.375\n在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個\n\n07:28.775 --> 07:49.403\n整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資\n\n07:50.983 --> 08:08.794\n伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾\n\n08:10.094 --> 08:38.708\n台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法\n\n08:39.028 --> 09:00.062\n現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴\n\n09:00.822 --> 09:26.898\n所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告\n\n09:27.978 --> 09:50.110\n謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估\n\n09:50.430 --> 10:05.716\n因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好\n\n10:05.916 --> 10:23.718\n沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會\n\n10:25.760 --> 10:54.812\n非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關\n\n10:55.532 --> 11:18.810\n但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業\n\n11:23.933 --> 11:40.905\n所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本\n\n11:41.789 --> 11:58.375\n他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法\n\n11:58.895 --> 12:22.383\n所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢\n\n12:23.163 --> 12:40.139\n如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題\n\n12:43.863 --> 13:00.284\n就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判\n\n13:01.185 --> 13:22.500\n所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.558,"end":12.023,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先有請這個權重署署長跟戴耀群副局長謝謝許署長和副局長"},{"start":17.087,"end":40.316,"text":"好 謝謝齁 那這個我前面先因為畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多啦那最主要還是針對上一次軍演的行動那因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰所以我先問一小部分認知作戰的部分那待會再問到跟權動有關的齁那一開始呢這個呢我相信這個副局長應該可能也有看到這一個NHK有追這個安巡的這個外線名單的事情齁然後也有提到說"},{"start":40.996,"end":65.886,"text":"他們怎麼去做這個認知作戰?」那我先想問一下就是說因為安徐的事件已經爆發一陣子了那當時這個局裡面掌握這件事情的時候怎麼去認定他的真偽因為畢竟真偽這件事情它畢竟是一個外洩的文件你必須要驗證嘛那日本的記者跑了很多國家去驗證其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的我們中間其實也有跟他們討論很多次那不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何"},{"start":67.738,"end":93.652,"text":"跟委員報告我們距離兵隊認識作戰裡面的相關的訊息是事實上分三個部分來處理第一部分是訊息的收集然後再來做一些研判最後是有涉及這個假訊息或是一些偵訊的話這一部分那我們是由我們的治安處來處理那透過一個科學的程序來了解它是不是有偽造"},{"start":94.933,"end":119.394,"text":"我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提但是就是說因為現在外線的文件有時候太多那有時候很難去驗查他的真偽有時候半真半假他可能本來是真實的文件他故意篡改一些地方又把它放上去半真半假所以呢那因為安巡算是一個重大的一個文件的洩漏所以要去verify這件事情非常的重要所以呢我只是想只是問大局關於這件事情的SOP那如果不方便在這邊講的話我們可以在"},{"start":120.815,"end":122.377,"text":"即使他有共同協作的行為,不代表他跟中國有關。」"},{"start":144.298,"end":154.43,"text":"所以這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情他的這個程序是什麼有沒有去做這件事"},{"start":157.429,"end":178.191,"text":"事實上這個訊息是到處在流竄嘛海外訊息流竄那我們的做法會針對幾個幾個我們稱之為徵訊就是這個有就剛剛我們所談的真真假假並存的東西那對台灣的社會或是台灣的這個整個政府民心產生一個離間的作用的相關的訊息會做掌握"},{"start":178.852,"end":206.266,"text":"那這一塊的部分我們到最後的判斷還是要透過一個科技的一個程序來做一個法律程序一個科技的程序來做那如果說在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工來製作的話他會有相關的法令我們依法來處理那如果說我們發現到他是被加工製造是虛偽不實的我們也透過這個新聞發布的方式來澄清"},{"start":206.986,"end":236.292,"text":"我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意第一個當然它的內容不實所以當時政府有出來澄清第二個階段是說它到底跟中國有沒有關係這個是局裡面其實是需要跟國人說明的第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等之類他再一次驗證說這個可能跟中國操作有關的時候其實我覺得局裡面可以出來就是說我們當時的研判是什麼跟這一次有哪些謀合之處希望國人以後能夠注意我覺得這個每一個層次其實都要做"},{"start":236.772,"end":238.154,"text":"這次封鎖當然有很多PTT上面的一些假消息"},{"start":254.574,"end":274.032,"text":"這個講到其實刪除得非常的快所以就是而且很多是攝影機有一些看起來是印表機不過大部分都是攝影機的發文攝影機當然不會發文所以這很明顯是一個操作但是在這一邊因為我們在講到封鎖這件事情封鎖這件事情第一個它不容易達成今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到"},{"start":274.472,"end":293.044,"text":"而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行尤其是大概有80%的航線目前全球來講都有經過台灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊所以封鎖一定會造成很大的經濟傷害所以如果說我們今天真的要來討論封鎖這件事情的話我覺得以權動署的角色"},{"start":294.825,"end":320.841,"text":"就是今天的主題它是有提到這幾個那包含這個關鍵的物資的自主啦民生的物資啦還有醫療物資啦這是今天的主題嘛我們照為定的主題那裡面關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係我晚一點會問民生物資這一邊呢其實是應該跟交通部有關係就是說它的因為它跟物流有關當然跟農業部也有關但因為農業部有相關的報告但我知道今天交通部有來嘛"},{"start":323.317,"end":351.054,"text":"交通部有綜合規劃司司長這個司長所以呢是不是請交通部交通部開始或者權動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以因為畢竟你們有點類似像秘書處我想問一下就是說交通部關於這一個物流的供給這一邊因為這個在原本的權動的一個架構交通部本來是一個他算是主責單位啦那目前來講我們對物流的穩定這件事情的措施大概進行到哪裡"},{"start":352.194,"end":374.487,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到早上國防部副部長有把這個封鎖的定義講得很清楚那一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況進入緊急狀況交通部根據全動數的作業規定會有作業的分類跟項目會接受全動數的管制所有的"},{"start":375.387,"end":395.654,"text":"包括動員的車輛、陸海空動員的車輛都要接受管制的情境下來接受跟軍方來做協同工作會達到委員您所關注的這個物流的工作特別是在民生的部分因為我知道每年3月的時候大概就是會有一個定期跟權動署有關就要盤點這一些事情因為我覺得一年有點"},{"start":396.474,"end":420.829,"text":"我覺得一年一次真的有點少啦所以是不是可以請交通部一個月好不好我覺得可以一個月可不可以告訴我們就是說目前大概盤點的狀況如何物流這件事情物資運送這件事情目前有進展到什麼程度因為這個不在今天的報告裡面今天比較多是針對比如說衛福他們相關的這些物資農業相關的物資還有能源相關的但物流這邊今天稍微比較缺乏那是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告先讓我們知道一下"},{"start":423.01,"end":446.375,"text":"在明年3月的時候我們也可以再立即地去盤點說到底這個年度做到什麼程度是的 謝謝委員基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要跟回覆前動數之外我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施包括這一次的COVID我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導對於關鍵設施的這個"},{"start":448.775,"end":469.403,"text":"整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本能力這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告好 謝謝司長那醫療物資這個部分其實我們今天看到其實有蠻多都是有提到這個醫療物資"},{"start":470.983,"end":488.794,"text":"伊朗物資當然也會有運送上的問題不過這邊我想小小提一下關於工藝鏈安全因為我去年去烏克蘭的時候我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情那因為止血帶真的很缺那他們就要從各國進口那當然就是中國製造的這個止血帶其實造成蠻大的困擾"},{"start":490.094,"end":518.708,"text":"台灣目前的狀況就是我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口台灣自己的廠商並不是需要一個很高的技術但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少那是不是可以請次長說明一下關於這一個部分我們在供應鏈安全上有沒有可能不管是輔導還是說等等之類的讓止血帶能夠比較我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造對不對但有沒有什麼更好的方法"},{"start":519.028,"end":540.062,"text":"現在我們報告就是我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材那尤其是一些關鍵的衛材我們大概都沒有從中國製造那止血帶這個部分過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理因為它其實是前端到院前的部分那國內有一些廠商有生產但是它的那個規格可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格當然我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴"},{"start":540.822,"end":566.898,"text":"所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估說是不是要用一個專案或者是另外用一筆預算直接去做採購因為這個部分對目前以衛福部這邊來講這個我們供應的不論是健保的藥材等等都不會在這一個止血帶都不在這個系統裡面那當然也跟委員補充報告就是在相關的血液、血品供應的部分如果是在重大災難或者是戰爭的過程中我們目前在準備的事實上是自己國學國用這個部分以上跟委員報告"},{"start":567.978,"end":590.11,"text":"謝謝,那一個小問題我現在突然又想到就是說因為止血帶這個當然有供應量安全的問題那另外有一個就是我看到國外有一些人他會把止血帶假設以後盤點認為說需要的話他會把它放在AED啦AED附近但我不知道台灣適不適合這樣但是不是也可以針對這一點如果說這個是需要他也在供應量安全之內以後他如果要怎樣易於取得這件事情是不是到時候也可以稍微評估"},{"start":590.43,"end":605.716,"text":"因為這部分跟委員報告就是說衛福部這邊有一個處理是一個叫到院前急救那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多不過到院前的部分很多是消防署這邊的業務所以我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估好不好"},{"start":605.916,"end":623.718,"text":"沒問題,那再告訴我們,謝謝接下來這個物流的部分今天先不談那今天因為我聽到馬委員今天有提到就是說權動署的定位那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了大家可以看到這個就是目前我們權動署的業務還有他需要去盤點的,還有他需要去連結的部會"},{"start":625.76,"end":654.812,"text":"非常非常的多啦如果只是按照原本的權動是那個一定做不到這件事情所以我反而持相反意見權動署應該還要再往上升級才對就是不然的話他要怎麼去協調那麼多內政啊什麼等等之類的而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖封鎖之後可能又會有假消息又會造成民心的動盪這個左下角其實更重要的是第一個我們的財源在哪裡我們的財力動員這跟財政部有關嗎我們的精神動員跟教育部有關"},{"start":655.532,"end":678.81,"text":"但我們可以看到現在反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候而這個反而會遭到蠻多委員的一個反彈所以我在這邊還是要強調一下我認為這個是重要的但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關比較常被忽略的那因為今天時間的因素就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略從2019開始他們先會去盤點那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業"},{"start":683.933,"end":700.905,"text":"所以盤疊哪一些是關鍵的產業需要被保護的這個台灣大概已經做了但是保護跟育成這兩件事情可能還是要全動數可能要去拉著經濟部跟國發會跟國科會來做不然的話就會變成說像我給大家看一下這一個是這是日本"},{"start":701.789,"end":718.375,"text":"他們去看這些他盤點完之後他把所有外國可能會去竊取的技術可能透過留學生什麼千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制計轉他把這些全部盤點出來而且他特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法"},{"start":718.895,"end":742.383,"text":"所以用這個手法之後呢部會就提出相關的修法提出相關的修法之後他們就過了這些法律這個從2019一直到現在他們已經通過無數的法律都是在保護這些經濟安全台灣有一些是用行政命令做但顯然不太夠所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善也可以去參考日本的內容這邊其實我都有整理所以呢"},{"start":743.163,"end":760.139,"text":"如果需要的話辦公室都可以提供但我最後要提到一件事情就是我們這個國科會因為今天國科會來的是不是是南部科學園區的副局長所以應該不用上來應該沒什麼關係因為這跟你沒有直接的關係但回去跟國科會講一下就是這一邊呢他是在講說這個台積電設廠這其實是一個言論紀律的一個問題"},{"start":763.863,"end":780.284,"text":"就是說當我們今天不管我們是要輔導任何的產業我們經濟安全要怎麼做這本來是一個正確的方向但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判"},{"start":781.185,"end":802.5,"text":"所以希望提醒一下國科會甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下就是為什麼會出現像這樣的一個事情這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口所以希望能夠再折騰一下我知道權動署其實非常的辛苦人數根本就不夠但是業務實在太多了但是拜託提醒國科會一下不要有這種錯誤的發生因為時間到了我們這個沒有辦法再問下去有點可惜來 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時10分）謝謝主席，我先請全動署署長，跟調查局副局長。謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：請署長和副局長。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟今天的報告其實非常的多，最主要還是針對上次軍演的行動，因為軍演的行動有搭配認知作戰，所以我先問一小部分有關認知作戰的議題，然後待會再問到跟全動署有關的部分。一開始我要談的議題，我相信副局長應該可能也有看到NHK有追安洵外洩名單的事情，然後也有提到說他們怎麼去做認知作戰。我想先問一下，因為安洵的事件已經爆發一陣子了，當時局裡面掌握這件事情的時候，怎麼去認定它的真偽？真偽這件事情，因為它畢竟是個外洩的文件，你必須要驗證嘛，那日本的記者就跑了很多國家去驗證，其實我覺得是蠻辛苦的，我們中間其實有跟他們討論很多次，不知道局裡面對這件事情當初的掌握如何？"],["孫副局長承一：跟委員報告，我們局裡面對認知作戰的相關訊息，事實上分三個部分來處理，第一個部分是訊息的蒐集；然後再來一些做研判；最後是有涉及假訊息或是一些偵訊的話，這一部分是由我們的資安處來處理，透過科學的程序來了解是不是有偽造。"],["沈委員伯洋：我知道內容有一些可能不方便在這邊提，但是現在因為有時候外洩的文件太多，很難去驗證它的真偽，有時候半真半假，可能本來是真實的文件，他故意竄改一些地方又把它放上去，半真半假。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為安洵事件算是一個重大的文件洩漏，所以要如何處理這件事情非常的重要，我只是問調查局關於這件事情的SOP，如果不方便在這邊講的話，我們可以在機密會議，或者說事後再來辦公室報告。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外一個就是其中有提到印度移工這個案件，印度移工這個案件，那時候我們還在民間，我們就有發現其實很多都是用同樣的劇本，就是說它用抖音的影片或TikTok的影片，但即使他有共同的協作行為，不代表他跟中國有關，對不對？這件事情當時的掌握又是什麼，就是局裡面有沒有針對我們要怎麼去跟中國做連結這件事情，它的程序是什麼？有沒有去做這件事。"],["孫副局長承一：事實上訊息到處在流竄，很多訊息在流竄，我們的作法會針對幾個我們稱之為偵群，就是剛剛委員所談的真真假假並存的東西，對臺灣社會或是臺灣整個政府民心產生離間作用的相關訊息，我們會做掌握。那這一部分，到最後我們的判斷還是要透過一個法律的程序跟科技的程序來做，如果在國內確實有找到在地的協力者來加工製作的話，他違反相關的法令，我們會依法來處理。如果我們發覺到它是被加工製造，是虛偽不實的，我們也會透過新聞發布的方式來澄清。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得這個可能有三個階段要注意，第一個，當然它的內容不實，所以當時政府有出來澄清；第二個階段是，它到底跟中國有沒有關係，其實這是局裡面需要跟國人說明的；第三個是當今天國外他們也去verify這些相關的文件等等的之類，然後再一次的驗證，這個可能跟中國的操作有關的時候，我覺得調查局可以出來說明，我們當時的研判是什麼，跟這一次有哪些謀合之處，希望國人以後能夠注意。我覺得這每一個層次，其實都要做。"],["孫副局長承一：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟這個NHK的報導也才剛出來，所以我覺得局裡面如果有一個回應的話，對於讓一般民眾了解，到底什麼叫做中國操作，我覺得會有幫助。"],["孫副局長承一：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：另外我想問，因為今天的主題是封鎖，這次的封鎖當然PTT上面有很多的假消息，這些假消息刪除得非常快，而且很多都是攝影機，有一些看起來是印表機，不過大部分都是攝影機的發文，攝影機當然不會發文，所以這很明顯是一個操作。但是在這邊我們講到封鎖這件事情，封鎖這件事情，第一個它不容易達成，今天部長在前面回答的時候其實有提到，而且它會影響到非常多的經濟運行，尤其目前全球來講，大概有百分之八十的航線都會經過臺灣海峽還有太平洋這一邊，所以封鎖一定會對經濟造成很大的傷害。","如果我們今天真的要討論封鎖這件事情的話，我覺得以全動署的角色，今天我們召委定的主題有提到，包含關鍵物資的自主、民生物資，還有醫療物資，其中關鍵產業跟能源自主大概跟經濟部、國發會、國科會有關係，我晚一點會問，民生物資這部分其實應該是跟交通部有關係，因為它跟物流有關，當然跟農業部也有關，但因為農業部有相關的報告。請問今天交通部有來嗎？交通部有綜合規劃司司長，對不對？所以，是不是請交通部，或者全動署如果可以幫忙回答也可以，因為畢竟你們也有點類似像秘書處。我想問一下交通部，關於物流的攻擊這部分，因為這個在原本的全動架構，交通部算是一個主責單位，目前我們對於穩定物流的相關措施，大概進行到哪裡？"],["張司長垂龍：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到，早上國防部顧部長有把封鎖的定義講得很清楚，一旦進入封鎖的情境就是進入緊急狀況，進入緊急狀況之後，根據全動署的作業規定，交通部會依據作業分類跟項目接受全動署的管制，包括陸、海、空所有動員的車輛都要在管制的情境下，接受指揮跟軍方協同工作，會達到委員您所關注的穩定物流的工作，特別是在民生的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為我知道每年3月的時候，大概會定期跟全動署就這一些事情進行相關的盤點，但我覺得一年一次真的有點少，所以是不是可以請交通部在一個月內好不好，我覺得一個月可以，可不可以一個月內告訴我們，目前盤點的狀況如何？物流這件事情，物資運送這件事情，目前進展到什麼程度？因為這部分不在今天的報告裡面，今天比較多的是針對，譬如說衛福部門的相關物資，農業相關的物資，還有能源相關的，但物流這部分今天稍微比較缺乏，是不是可以給我們一個簡單的報告，先讓我們知道一下，這樣明年3月的時候，我們也可以再立即的去盤點出來，到底這個年度做到什麼程度。"],["張司長垂龍：是的，謝謝委員。基本上我們除了在例行性的盤點要回復全動署之外，我們也會特別針對比較特殊的關鍵設施，包括這一次的COVID，我們接受國安會跟國土辦的指導，對於關鍵設施整個操作人員接受疫苗的分配，我們也會回饋到我們需要維持關鍵設施運作的基本人力，這些我們都有在動態的持續作業中，特別提出來向委員跟今天出席的委員做報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝司長。醫療物資這個部分，其實我們今天看到的報告有蠻多都有提到醫療物資，當然醫療物資也會有運送上的問題，不過這邊我想小小提一下有關於供應鏈的安全。去年我去烏克蘭的時候，我在問他們跟止血帶有關的事情，因為止血帶真的很缺，所以他們就要從各國進口，當然就是中國製造的止血帶，其實造成蠻大的困擾。臺灣目前的狀況就是，我們的止血帶大部分也都是從國外進口，其實止血帶的製造並不需要很高的技術，但我們自己製造的狀況其實是非常稀少。所以，是不是可以請次長說明一下，關於這個部分，我們在供應鏈的安全上，有沒有可能，不管是輔導還是其他等等的方式，讓止血帶能夠比較……我們當然第一個要脫離中國的製造，對不對？但有沒有什麼更好的方法？"],["林次長靜儀：先跟委員報告，我們已經有在盤點相關的一些藥品衛材，尤其是一些關鍵的衛材，我們大概都沒有從中國進口。止血帶這個部分，過去因為比較少在衛福部這邊處理，因為它其實是前端到院前的部分，國內有一些廠商有生產，但是它的規格，可能不像委員所說的國外的那個規格，當然，我們也必須承認價格上比較昂貴。所以這個部分是不是委員容許我們另外再去評估，看是不是要用一個專案，或者是另外用一筆預算直接去採購，因為這個部分，目前以衛福部這邊來講，我們供應的，不論是健保的藥材等等，止血帶都不在這個系統裡面。那當然也跟委員補充報告就是，在相關的血液、血品供應的部分，如果是在重大災難或戰爭的過程中，我們目前在準備的，事實上是自己國血國用這個部分。以上跟委員報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。一個小問題，我現在突然又想到，就是說，因為止血帶這個當然有供應鏈安全的問題，另外有一個，就是我看到國外有一些人，假設以後盤點認為說需要的話，他們會把止血帶放在AED附近，那我不知道臺灣適不適合這樣，那是不是也可以針對這一點，如果說這個是需要，也在供應鏈安全之內，以後要怎樣易於取得，這件事情是不是到最後也可以稍微評估一下？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分跟委員報告，就是說，衛福部這邊有一個處理，叫到院前急救，那我們現在也發現到院前急救的存活率會好很多，不過到院前的部分，很多是消防署這邊的業務，那我們再跟消防署這邊一起來做一些評估，好不好？"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題。那再告訴我們。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那接下來，物流的部分我們今天先不談，我聽到馬委員今天有提到全動署的定位，那我覺得雖然馬委員已經可能先回辦公室了，大家可以看到，這個就是目前我們全動署的業務，還有需要去盤點的，還有要去連結的部會，非常非常多，如果只是按照原本的全動室那種，是一定做不到這件事情，所以我反而持相反的意見，全動署應該還要再往上升級才對，不然的話，它要怎麼去協調那麼多內政等等的業務？而且今天我們提到所謂的封鎖，封鎖之後可能又會有假消息，又會造成民心的動盪。左下角這個其實更重要的是，第一個，我們的財源在哪裡？我們的財力動員，這跟財政部有關，我們的精神動員跟教育部有關，但我們可以看到現在，反而教育部要做這些跟精神動員相關的事項，或者財政部要準備金流的事項的時候，反而會遭到滿多委員的反彈。所以我在這邊還是要強調一下，我認為這個是重要的，但是我今天想要提的是跟經濟有關，比較常被忽略的。","因為今天時間的因素，就是日本現在經濟安保的戰略是從2019開始，他們先會去盤點，那我看到這一次國發會也有盤點15個不同的產業，所以盤點哪一些是關鍵的產業，需要被保護的產業，這個臺灣大概已經做了，但是保護跟育成這兩件事情，可能還是要全動署去拉著經濟部、國發會跟國科會來做，不然的話，就會變成一個結果。我給大家看一下，日本他們去盤點所有外國可能竊取的技術，這些可能透過留學生、千人計畫、人才挖角、商業間諜、強制技轉來竊取，他們把這些全部盤點出來，而且特別去討論中國最常用哪一個手法，部會提出相關的修法，提出相關的修法之後，他們就通過了這些法律。從2019年到現在，他們已經通過無數的法律，都是在保護這些經濟安全，臺灣有一些是用行政命令做，但顯然不太夠，所以希望能夠去拉著經濟部、國發會、國科會，一起趕快把這個盤點做得更完善，也可以參考日本的內容。其實我都有整理，所以如果需要的話，辦公室都可以提供。","但我最後要提到一件事情，就是關於國科會，今天國科會來的是南部科學園區的副局長，應該不用上來，應該沒什麼關係，因為這跟你沒有直接的關係，但回去跟國科會講一下，就是這邊在說台積電設廠，這其實是一個言論紀律的問題，就是說，不管我們現在要輔導任何的產業，我們經濟安全要怎麼做，這本來就是一個正確的方向，但經濟安全跟部會首長政治上的言論紀律有高度的相關，因為這個會影響到別人對於你現在經濟安全走到哪裡的一個研判，所以我希望提醒一下國科會，甚至希望國科會能夠來辦公室說明一下為什麼會出現這樣的一個事情，這個對經濟安全會是一個很大的破口，所以我希望能夠再責成一下。我知道全動署其實非常辛苦，人數根本就不夠，但是業務實在太多了，但是拜託提醒國科會一下，不要有這種錯誤發生。"],["白署長捷隆：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，因為時間到了，我沒辦法再問下去，有點可惜。謝謝。"],["白署長捷隆：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}