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\"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 470.181, \"end\": 470.241, \"score\": 0.337}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 470.241, \"end\": 470.261, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 470.261, \"end\": 470.401, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"敬\", \"start\": 470.401, \"end\": 470.421, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"稿\", \"start\": 470.421, \"end\": 470.602, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 470.602, \"end\": 470.622, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"粹\"}]}, {\"start\": 476.363, \"end\": 505.102, \"text\": \"然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 476.363, \"end\": 476.463, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 476.463, \"end\": 476.763, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"搞\", \"start\": 476.763, \"end\": 478.504, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 478.504, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"討\"}]}, {\"start\": 507.25, \"end\": 521.814, \"text\": \"然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 507.25, \"end\": 507.35, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 507.35, \"end\": 507.45, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 507.45, \"end\": 507.631, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 507.631, \"end\": 507.811, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 507.811, \"end\": 508.252, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 508.252, \"end\": 508.452, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 508.452, \"end\": 508.672, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 508.672, \"end\": 508.813, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 508.813, \"end\": 508.973, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 508.973, \"end\": 509.133, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 509.133, 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{\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 759.754, \"end\": 760.114, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"階\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 760.114, \"end\": 760.254, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 760.254, \"end\": 760.274, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 762.159, \"end\": 762.179, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 762.179, \"end\": 762.299, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 762.299, \"end\": 762.319, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:00,049\n委員好\n\n2\n00:00:24,540 --> 00:00:45,897\n市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩漏\n\n3\n00:00:46,938 --> 00:01:09,854\n這相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到\n\n4\n00:01:11,425 --> 00:01:30,629\n相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官\n\n5\n00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:52,445\n律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含檢警調書記官他們的長官\n\n6\n00:01:54,873 --> 00:02:14,913\n以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定\n\n7\n00:02:17,041 --> 00:02:35,324\n並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎\n\n8\n00:02:36,698 --> 00:02:38,999\n有包含所謂的中間人嗎?他的上級長官然後層層的甚至傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員有包含到你們的規範的範圍\n\n9\n00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:06,397\n有包含他們的長官嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:29,434 --> 00:03:57,606\n是,所以這很重要,這包含到他的上級的長官,對不對,其實很有可能這個洩露的不是基層的公務員,而是他的這個上級的長官,這不是不無可能,我們看一下下一頁,就是我們知道,你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分,先前也有蠻多委員有提到,就是我們自己看到你們在報告書裡面就知道,\n\n11\n00:03:59,315 --> 00:04:05,681\n你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊\n\n12\n00:04:22,933 --> 00:04:31,021\n都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎\n\n13\n00:04:34,853 --> 00:04:47,322\n你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢從這麼多的歷史的案件看起來就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊\n\n14\n00:04:56,288 --> 00:04:57,128\n我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的\n\n15\n00:05:14,318 --> 00:05:33,838\n但是也不乏的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不孤可能我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分\n\n16\n00:05:36,982 --> 00:05:43,187\n這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嗎?是不是?是部長我知道因為你剛有說我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的\n\n17\n00:06:01,121 --> 00:06:27,262\n相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關的行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法\n\n18\n00:06:27,978 --> 00:06:53,615\n還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在8月有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好\n\n19\n00:06:56,818 --> 00:07:23,634\n今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個\n\n20\n00:07:25,504 --> 00:07:27,555\n呃一個信賴大家都很清楚\n\n21\n00:07:28,967 --> 00:07:50,622\n對那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹\n\n22\n00:07:56,363 --> 00:08:25,102\n然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討\n\n23\n00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:41,814\n然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法\n\n24\n00:08:43,530 --> 00:09:04,509\n雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊\n\n25\n00:09:07,386 --> 00:09:30,048\n你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面\n\n26\n00:09:34,474 --> 00:09:54,274\n所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容\n\n27\n00:09:55,816 --> 00:09:57,157\n最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確\n\n28\n00:10:20,955 --> 00:10:42,213\n這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定\n\n29\n00:10:43,939 --> 00:11:12,639\n要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是\n\n30\n00:11:14,661 --> 00:11:30,094\n有嗎有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個但是解釋上可以如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久\n\n31\n00:11:35,314 --> 00:11:59,999\n這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊\n\n32\n00:12:06,215 --> 00:12:16,976\n這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎\n\n33\n00:12:18,035 --> 00:12:40,274\n跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規\n\n34\n00:12:42,159 --> 00:12:42,319\n委員會主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t49\t委員好\n24540\t45897\t市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩漏\n46938\t69854\t這相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到\n71425\t90629\t相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官\n92890\t112445\t律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含檢警調書記官他們的長官\n114873\t134913\t以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定\n137041\t155324\t並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎\n156698\t158999\t有包含所謂的中間人嗎?他的上級長官然後層層的甚至傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員有包含到你們的規範的範圍\n185636\t186397\t有包含他們的長官嗎?\n209434\t237606\t是,所以這很重要,這包含到他的上級的長官,對不對,其實很有可能這個洩露的不是基層的公務員,而是他的這個上級的長官,這不是不無可能,我們看一下下一頁,就是我們知道,你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分,先前也有蠻多委員有提到,就是我們自己看到你們在報告書裡面就知道,\n239315\t245681\t你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊\n262933\t271021\t都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎\n274853\t287322\t你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢從這麼多的歷史的案件看起來就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊\n296288\t297128\t我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的\n314318\t333838\t但是也不乏的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不孤可能我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分\n336982\t343187\t這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嗎?是不是?是部長我知道因為你剛有說我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的\n361121\t387262\t相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關的行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法\n387978\t413615\t還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在8月有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好\n416818\t443634\t今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個\n445504\t447555\t呃一個信賴大家都很清楚\n448967\t470622\t對 那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非 搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹\n476363\t505102\t然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討\n507250\t521814\t然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法\n523530\t544509\t雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊\n547386\t570048\t你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面\n574474\t594274\t所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容\n595816\t597157\t最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確\n620955\t642213\t這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定\n643939\t672639\t要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是\n674661\t690094\t有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久\n695314\t719999\t這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊\n726215\t736976\t這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎\n738035\t760274\t跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規\n762159\t762319\t委員會主席\n","txt":"委員好\n市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩漏\n這相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到\n相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官\n律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含檢警調書記官他們的長官\n以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定\n並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎\n有包含所謂的中間人嗎?他的上級長官然後層層的甚至傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員有包含到你們的規範的範圍\n有包含他們的長官嗎?\n是,所以這很重要,這包含到他的上級的長官,對不對,其實很有可能這個洩露的不是基層的公務員,而是他的這個上級的長官,這不是不無可能,我們看一下下一頁,就是我們知道,你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分,先前也有蠻多委員有提到,就是我們自己看到你們在報告書裡面就知道,\n你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊\n都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎\n你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢從這麼多的歷史的案件看起來就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊\n我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的\n但是也不乏的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不孤可能我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分\n這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嗎?是不是?是部長我知道因為你剛有說我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的\n相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關的行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法\n還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在8月有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好\n今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個\n呃一個信賴大家都很清楚\n對 那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非 搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹\n然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討\n然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法\n雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊\n你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面\n所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容\n最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確\n這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定\n要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是\n有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久\n這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊\n這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎\n跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規\n委員會主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:00.049\n委員好\n\n00:24.540 --> 00:45.897\n市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩漏\n\n00:46.938 --> 01:09.854\n這相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到\n\n01:11.425 --> 01:30.629\n相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官\n\n01:32.890 --> 01:52.445\n律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含檢警調書記官他們的長官\n\n01:54.873 --> 02:14.913\n以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定\n\n02:17.041 --> 02:35.324\n並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎\n\n02:36.698 --> 02:38.999\n有包含所謂的中間人嗎?他的上級長官然後層層的甚至傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員有包含到你們的規範的範圍\n\n03:05.636 --> 03:06.397\n有包含他們的長官嗎?\n\n03:29.434 --> 03:57.606\n是,所以這很重要,這包含到他的上級的長官,對不對,其實很有可能這個洩露的不是基層的公務員,而是他的這個上級的長官,這不是不無可能,我們看一下下一頁,就是我們知道,你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分,先前也有蠻多委員有提到,就是我們自己看到你們在報告書裡面就知道,\n\n03:59.315 --> 04:05.681\n你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊\n\n04:22.933 --> 04:31.021\n都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎\n\n04:34.853 --> 04:47.322\n你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢從這麼多的歷史的案件看起來就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊\n\n04:56.288 --> 04:57.128\n我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的\n\n05:14.318 --> 05:33.838\n但是也不乏的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不孤可能我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分\n\n05:36.982 --> 05:43.187\n這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嗎?是不是?是部長我知道因為你剛有說我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的\n\n06:01.121 --> 06:27.262\n相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關的行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法\n\n06:27.978 --> 06:53.615\n還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在8月有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好\n\n06:56.818 --> 07:23.634\n今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個\n\n07:25.504 --> 07:27.555\n呃一個信賴大家都很清楚\n\n07:28.967 --> 07:50.622\n對那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹\n\n07:56.363 --> 08:25.102\n然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討\n\n08:27.250 --> 08:41.814\n然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法\n\n08:43.530 --> 09:04.509\n雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊\n\n09:07.386 --> 09:30.048\n你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面\n\n09:34.474 --> 09:54.274\n所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容\n\n09:55.816 --> 09:57.157\n最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確\n\n10:20.955 --> 10:42.213\n這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定\n\n10:43.939 --> 11:12.639\n要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是\n\n11:14.661 --> 11:30.094\n有嗎有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個但是解釋上可以如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久\n\n11:35.314 --> 11:59.999\n這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊\n\n12:06.215 --> 12:16.976\n這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎\n\n12:18.035 --> 12:40.274\n跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規\n\n12:42.159 --> 12:42.319\n委員會主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.049,"text":"委員好"},{"start":24.54,"end":45.897,"text":"市部長您好我想今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於現在偵查不公開的問題我們知道其實偵查不公開的規定是定在刑事訴訟法245條就是涉及到整個的司法人員都有這個義務要遵守偵查在偵查程序當中不可以有洩漏"},{"start":46.938,"end":69.854,"text":"這相關的資訊資料另外呢對於辯護人律師也有規定不管是在刑事訴訟法第33條還是在律師法的第36條裡面都有相關的規定對於這個在職務上面所窒息的秘密還有資訊是不可以任意洩露的可是呢這麼多年來其實我們真的看到"},{"start":71.425,"end":90.629,"text":"相關的問題這個時常的發生那我事實上針對在偵查不公開裡面的這個偵查程序當中有可能會洩露相關資訊或一些秘密的大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的這個檢警調書記官"},{"start":92.89,"end":112.445,"text":"律師和媒體大概這三個類型的人可是剛剛其實也有諸多的委員這個沈薄洋委員剛剛有講到了就是除了這些人之外還有中間人也是有可能會洩露的這包括什麼就是包含檢警調書記官他們的長官"},{"start":114.873,"end":134.913,"text":"以及假設積壓庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務可是我們看到現行的法規裡面偵查不公開的辦法作業辦法裡面其實並沒有就這部分有清楚的規定"},{"start":137.041,"end":155.324,"text":"並沒有把它訂的很清楚所以也就是我們今天在討論的就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面它要規範的對象把它明訂清楚那請問現在法務部有進一步的研修要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎"},{"start":156.698,"end":158.999,"text":"有包含所謂的中間人嗎?他的上級長官然後層層的甚至傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員有包含到你們的規範的範圍"},{"start":185.636,"end":186.397,"text":"有包含他們的長官嗎?"},{"start":209.434,"end":237.606,"text":"是,所以這很重要,這包含到他的上級的長官,對不對,其實很有可能這個洩露的不是基層的公務員,而是他的這個上級的長官,這不是不無可能,我們看一下下一頁,就是我們知道,你們自己法務部也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分,先前也有蠻多委員有提到,就是我們自己看到你們在報告書裡面就知道,"},{"start":239.315,"end":245.681,"text":"你們從108年到112年檢討的件數7000多件然後實際上真的有調查了200多件然後處分的人數15人如果說從最近這半年來講的話這個檢討也有2000多件然後因調查這個件數76件處分的人數只有一位可是呢所有的處罰裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊"},{"start":262.933,"end":271.021,"text":"都是基層的檢查或是調查局的人員我真的不相信既然沒有檢察官有違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎"},{"start":274.853,"end":287.322,"text":"你們是不是有在包庇你們自己的同仁我想檢察官要洩露自己偵辦的案件對自己偵查是不利的可是這有什麼不利呢從這麼多的歷史的案件看起來就算是洩露了也不會被處罰從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊"},{"start":296.288,"end":297.128,"text":"我相信有一些檢察官他是謹言順行的"},{"start":314.318,"end":333.838,"text":"但是也不乏的確是有蠻多的檢察官他跟媒體他或者是說是這可能他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去不是不孤可能我只是要澄清一個事實就要講一個事實這麼多的案件裡面竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分"},{"start":336.982,"end":343.187,"text":"這違反大家的這個違反經驗法則不太可能會有這樣的狀況嗎?是不是?是部長我知道因為你剛有說我也非常同意你的看法會接觸到相關資訊的人很多那所以你們偵查不公開的相關規定就要修要把那個可能會涉及到的"},{"start":361.121,"end":387.262,"text":"相關的人士都要納入規範啊然後也沒有一個這個相關的行政處罰的規定所以違反了之後呢這頂多就基層人員受到一些懲戒的處處分那你們自己檢察官還有法官也是有可能啊然後司法院有修規定嗎?刑事訴訟法是你們的這個主責的法律這個問題存在這麼久為什麼這個司法院從來沒有說要修法"},{"start":387.978,"end":413.615,"text":"還有跟委員報告那個因為有羈押跟提審我們有有在8月有含那個司法院就是說是我知道其實我這個問題對就偵查不公開的相關的規定的這個的議題法務部當然就大家會針對的你們看但是我覺得司法院失職這麼多年來為什麼不好好的把相關的規定修好"},{"start":416.818,"end":443.634,"text":"今天剛剛的吳思瑤委員還在說是誰摧毀司法公信力我不客氣的講我覺得其實你們自己司法人員你們就是自己踐踏你們自己的司法專業司法公信力啊老百姓的這個眼睛是雪亮的誰能夠建立起這個公信力誰能夠給他一個"},{"start":445.504,"end":447.555,"text":"呃一個信賴大家都很清楚"},{"start":448.967,"end":470.622,"text":"對 那麼今天不是我們在這個立法在我們司法法制委員會裡面大家委員們這邊討論這相關法律要怎麼修法我們大家都很盡心盡力除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在這些專業委員前面搬弄是非 搬門弄斧講那些是是而非的人那些這個委員真的是說不過這個專業的委員就敬稿民粹"},{"start":476.363,"end":505.102,"text":"然後搞動員他們才是他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇像吳思堯委員、柯建民委員等等都是類似這種既沒有法律專業然後常常就在我們這些法律專業委員前面說三道四誤解法律這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以誰摧毀司法公信力的這個問題我想不是只有法務部你們自己要去檢討司法院也要檢討"},{"start":507.25,"end":521.814,"text":"然後尤其你們現在法務部你們又是主管律師法律師也有可能在這個過程當中洩密所以你們有沒有考慮說要去去修正律師法"},{"start":523.53,"end":544.509,"text":"雖然我有看到了就是全國律師聯合會他們自己現在也開了研討會然後這個已經也提出了一個律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範可是本席希望這樣子的一個指引規範是不是能夠提高他的法位及為了要法治化這才有嚇阻力啊"},{"start":547.386,"end":570.048,"text":"你們就是法務部跟司法院你們都有提立法計畫我也都有仔細的看仔細的拜讀你們到底你們的腦筋你們的腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼我覺得很遺憾都沒有跟我們的社會接軌我們大家這個民眾我們關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面"},{"start":574.474,"end":594.274,"text":"所以就這個部分是不是請部長你們可以去研析因為刑事訴訟法不是你們的掌管的法規所以律師法的部分是不是也要一起去討論我們再來做研究不過以現在跟委員報告就是事實上律師在偵查中揭露那個偵查的這些的內容"},{"start":595.816,"end":597.157,"text":"最重要就是偵查不公開規範所能涵蓋的範圍對象這部分要明確"},{"start":620.955,"end":642.213,"text":"這個那個在我們再來檢視律師法等相關的規範來通盤考量看要怎麼去來做一個檢討對跟司法院要一起然後同時也司法院今天司法院司法院副秘書長是請副秘書長這邊也可以承諾你們接下來的立法計畫就是要去修刑事訴訟法的相關規定"},{"start":643.939,"end":672.639,"text":"要把直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序裡面偵查當中可能的這個資料的秘密的人全部都要一起規範這部分是那個偵查不公開作業辦法大概在母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細但是在這個應該也算是屬於偵查不公開作業辦法可是你們偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己法官啊他其實是"},{"start":674.661,"end":690.094,"text":"有嗎 有規範到法官嗎我們會同法務部 其實他有個概括條款啦概括的那個 但是解釋上可以 如果要具體化的話我們會同法務部去把它具體化我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂立那個比較低位階的作業辦法你刑事訴訟法就要修啊這問題已經積弊已久"},{"start":695.314,"end":719.999,"text":"這麼多年來大家不斷的講那為什麼這個司法院你不修法你可以參考其他國家的很多的法律的規定要提升的法位先直接去修刑事訴訟法這樣才有嚇阻力嘛對不對然後也可以再去訂定一個相關的這個行政處罰的這個若違反的話因為要構成犯罪可能有時候比較難但是這個違反這個相關的這個義務的規定可以處罰這個行政處罰可處罰還也不是不可以啊"},{"start":726.215,"end":736.976,"text":"這部分我們再去做相關的這個研議我希望你們列入你們下年度的立法計畫可以承諾我在下個會期裡面你們就要提出相關的修法案嗎"},{"start":738.035,"end":760.274,"text":"跟我們報告這部分可能要再徵詢各方的這個意見現在現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好你們的速度太慢了啦你們現在不修我們就立法委員我們就來提案修啊那修了之後你們又不滿意到時候去申請釋憲那個偵查不公開作業辦法就可以不要說作業辦法作業辦法就是第一位階的法規"},{"start":762.159,"end":762.319,"text":"委員會主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時37分）謝謝召委，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長您好。今天其實大家已經討論了很多有關於偵查不公開的問題，我們知道偵查不公開的規定是訂在刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條，就是涉及到整個司法人員都有義務要遵守在偵查程序當中不可以洩露相關的資訊、資料。另外，對於辯護人律師也有規定，不管是在刑事訴訟法第三十三條，還是在律師法第三十六條裡面都有相關的規定，對於在職務上面所知悉的秘密還有資訊，是不可以任意洩漏的。","可是這麼多年來，我們還是看到相關的問題時常發生。事實上，針對在偵查不公開裡面的偵查程序當中有可能會洩漏相關資訊或一些秘密的，大概就是我們這個圖上面看到的檢、警、調、書記官、律師和媒體這3個類型的人。剛剛其實也有諸多的委員，包括沈伯洋委員也有講到，除了這些人之外，還有中間人也是有可能會洩漏的，就是包含檢、警、調、書記官他們的長官，以及假設羈押庭把案子送到院方之後的法院的法官和書記官，都有可能會違反偵查不公開的義務。","可是我們看到現行的法規裡面，偵查不公開的作業辦法裡面其實就這部分並沒有清楚的規定，並沒有把它訂得很清楚。所以也就是我們今天在討論的，就是未來如何能夠將偵查不公開作業辦法裡面要規範的對象把它明定清楚。請問現在法務部有進一步的研析要怎麼樣修改相關的作業辦法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有偵查不公開的實施方案，就是檢、調、廉遵守偵查不公開的一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：有包含所謂的中間人嗎？他的上級長官，然後層層的、甚至是傳遞文書的作業人員、公務員，有包含到你們規範的範圍嗎？現在有涵蓋到哪些類型？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個部分，現在在偵查不公開的修正說明，是有包括庭務員、法醫師、檢驗員、鑑定人、通譯、法警、司機、工友這些都有，就是有接觸到……"],["翁委員曉玲：有包含他們的長官嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡沒有包含長官……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這很重要！要包含他的上級長官，對不對？其實洩漏者很有可能不是基層的公務員，而是他的上級長官，這不無可能。","我們知道法務部自己也有做偵查不公開的檢討報告及查辦處分，先前也已有滿多委員提到。我們看你們的報告書就知道，你們從108年到112年檢討的件數有七千多件，實際上、真的有調查的是兩百多件，處分人數15人。如果從最近這半年來講的話，檢討也有兩千多件，但應調查件數76件，處分人數只有1位。而且所有處罰對象裡面都沒有你們檢察官啊！都是基層的檢察或調查局人員，我真的不相信，竟然沒有檢察官違反偵查不公開義務的規定嗎？你們是不是在包庇你們自己的同仁？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想檢察官若洩漏自己偵辦的案件對自己的偵查是不利的。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是這有什麼不利呢？從這麼多歷史案件看起來，他就算洩漏了也不會被處罰，從來沒有任何一個處罰的案件啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對檢察官而言，自己辦的案件自己洩漏出去是眾夫所指，大家會懷疑偵查圖利，所以我們是避之唯恐不及。至於委員指導所提到的，我們會在會後……"],["翁委員曉玲：我相信有一些檢察官是謹言慎行的，但也的確不乏、有滿多檢察官跟媒體……或者可能是他的長官知道之後就把訊息洩露出去，不無可能！我只是要講一個事實：在這麼多案件裡面，竟然從來沒有一位檢察官被處分！這違反經驗法則，不太可能會有這樣的狀況嘛！是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個刻板印象。跟委員報告，事實上，會接觸的很多，而媒體關注的一定是有羈押的案件……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長，我知道，因為你剛剛說了，我也非常同意你的看法，會接觸到相關資訊的人很多，所以你們對於偵查不公開的相關規定就要修，可能涉及到的相關人士都要納入規範啊！何況也沒有相關行政處罰的規定，所以違反之後呢？頂多就是基層人員受到懲戒等處分，但你們自己的檢察官還有法官也有可能啊！","然後，司法院有修規定嗎？刑事訴訟法是你們主責的法律，這個問題存在這麼久，為什麼司法院從來沒有說要修法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為有羈押跟提審，我們有報院並函司法院，就是裁定是否要公開……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我知道。其實關於這個問題，也就是偵查不公開相關規定的議題，大家當然會針對你們法務部，但我覺得司法院失職。這麼多年來，為什麼不好好地把相關規定修好？在今天，剛剛吳思瑤委員還說是誰摧毀司法公信力？我不客氣地講，我覺得其實就是司法人員──你們自己踐踏自己的專業司法公信力啊！老百姓的眼睛是雪亮的，誰能夠建立起公信力、誰能夠讓他信賴，大家都很清楚。今天在司法及法制委員會裡，委員們在討論相關法律要怎麼修法，大家都很盡心盡力啊！除了少數幾位不是法律專業的委員常常在一些專業委員前面搬弄是非、班門弄斧，講那些似是而非的言論。那些委員真的是說不過專業的委員就盡搞民粹、搞動員，他們也是包庇司法不作為的幫兇！像吳思瑤委員、柯建銘委員等等，都是類似這種情形，沒有法律專業，卻常常在我們這些法律專業委員面前說三道四、誤解法律，這是非常糟糕的一件事。","針對「誰摧毀司法公信力？」這個問題，我想不是只有法務部你們自己要檢討，司法院也要檢討。尤其法務部現在又主管律師法，律師也有可能在過程當中洩密，所以你們有沒有考慮修正律師法？雖然我有看到全國律師聯合會現在也開了研討會，也已經提出律師辦理偵查中案件資訊揭露指引的規範，可是本席希望這樣的指引規範能夠提供法位階、未來要法制化，這才有嚇阻力啊！你們──就是法務部跟司法院都有提立法計畫，我也都有仔細地看、仔細地拜讀到底在你們腦袋裡面想的立法政策是什麼。而我覺得很遺憾，都沒有跟我們的社會接軌，我們的民眾關心的議題似乎都不在你們的立法計畫裡面。就這個部分，是不是請部長處理，你們可以去研析？刑事訴訟法不是你們管的法規，但律師法的部分是不是也要一起討論？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，我們再來研究。不過以現在的情況跟委員報告，律師在偵查中揭露偵查內容是否構成洩密罪事實上也有相關法令，包括個人資料保護法等相關法律可以遵循。"],["翁委員曉玲：除了構成犯罪之外，在律師法裡的相關懲戒、行政處罰等等，我覺得也都要整體、一起討論嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後如我剛剛講的，最重要的就是偵查不公開規範所能夠涵蓋的範圍、對象，這個部分要明確。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這部分我們再來檢視律師法等相關規範、通盤考量，看看要怎麼檢討。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，要跟司法院一起。同時，也要司法院……今天司法院有副秘書長列席，也請副秘書長承諾，你們接下來的立法計畫就是要修刑事訴訟法的相關規定，對於直接跟間接可以接觸到偵查程序當中可能資料、秘密的人全部都要一起規範。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：關於這部分，在偵查不公開作業辦法母法裡面大概沒有訂到那麼細，但是應該也屬於偵查不公開作業辦法第五條……"],["翁委員曉玲：可是偵查不公開作業辦法裡面沒有規範到你們自己的法官啊！有嗎？有規範到法官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們會會同法務部……其實有個概括條款，解釋上可以，但如果要具體化的話，我們會會同法務部就這部分來具體化。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望你們不要只是會同法務部去訂定比較低位階的作業辦法，刑事訴訟法就要修啊！這個問題積弊已久，這麼多年來大家不斷地講，為什麼司法院不修法？你可以參考其他國家很多法律規定，要提升到法位階、直接修刑事訴訟法，這樣才有嚇阻力嘛！對不對？然後也可以再訂定一套相關的行政處罰，處理違反的情況，因為有時候要構成犯罪可能比較難，但是違反相關義務的規定可以予以行政處罰、科處罰鍰，也不是不可以啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，這部分我們會再作相關研議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我希望你們列入下年度的立法計畫。可以承諾我，你們在下個會期就會提出相關修法案嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這部分可能要再徵詢各方意見，研究現階段到底怎麼樣規範比較好，因為今天……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們的速度太慢了啦！你們現在不修，我們立法委員就提案來修啊！但修了之後，你們又不滿意，到時候可能去聲請釋憲。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：其實偵查不公開作業辦法就可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：不要說作業辦法！作業辦法就是個低位階的法規！作業辦法要修，但是刑事訴訟法也是要修。","我想我就講到這邊，希望你們兩個機關可以在下個會期、應該是2月之前能夠提出律師法還有刑事訴訟法的修法草案到本院來，謝謝。"],["主席：那我們就依據先前宣告休息5分鐘；5分鐘後由林國成委員進行詢答。謝謝。","休息（11時49分）","繼續開會（11時55分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","先處理會議時間：上午會議持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","現在請林國成委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}}