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{\"word\": \"昌\", \"start\": 995.411, \"end\": 995.591, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 995.591, \"end\": 996.072, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 996.072, \"end\": 996.293, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 996.293, \"end\": 996.313, \"score\": 0.974}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,249 --> 00:00:27,131\n謝謝主席喔,事事麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部喔,經濟部部長部長過來稍微等一下我說請那個經濟部跟交通部的同仁可以的話上來一起協助經濟部的要通知一下打電話給他,還經濟部要通知一下\n\n2\n00:00:31,813 --> 00:00:33,755\n經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是經濟部的\n\n3\n00:01:01,144 --> 00:01:04,727\n我說經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長\n\n4\n00:01:27,598 --> 00:01:52,883\n各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港\n\n5\n00:01:53,983 --> 00:02:16,216\n我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭\n\n6\n00:02:18,497 --> 00:02:33,549\n第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都會掌握吧\n\n7\n00:02:36,127 --> 00:02:50,057\n部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧\n\n8\n00:02:52,473 --> 00:03:06,902\n這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現\n\n9\n00:03:08,183 --> 00:03:28,806\n但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事\n\n10\n00:03:29,967 --> 00:03:57,124\n他派了三席董事他派了三席董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他\n\n11\n00:03:58,525 --> 00:04:10,022\n租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理\n\n12\n00:04:14,568 --> 00:04:31,364\n就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友\n\n13\n00:04:32,105 --> 00:04:51,840\n包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為\n\n14\n00:04:53,041 --> 00:05:12,837\n因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的\n\n15\n00:05:13,922 --> 00:05:37,179\n他也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫\n\n16\n00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:52,822\n這個Project2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭\n\n17\n00:06:05,188 --> 00:06:22,455\n被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後\n\n18\n00:06:29,653 --> 00:06:52,009\n那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼\n\n19\n00:06:53,050 --> 00:07:16,521\n那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊\n\n20\n00:07:17,441 --> 00:07:21,967\n最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊\n\n21\n00:07:30,374 --> 00:07:49,439\n還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決\n\n22\n00:07:50,680 --> 00:08:09,326\n那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎\n\n23\n00:08:13,314 --> 00:08:39,108\n我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題\n\n24\n00:08:40,729 --> 00:09:07,401\n牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛\n\n25\n00:09:11,024 --> 00:09:11,425\n交通部的\n\n26\n00:09:15,714 --> 00:09:42,936\n那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project2049大家都在關心這一件事情\n\n27\n00:09:44,963 --> 00:09:58,910\n中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕\n\n28\n00:10:00,083 --> 00:10:26,030\n要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個\n\n29\n00:10:28,939 --> 00:10:49,745\n繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容\n\n30\n00:10:52,962 --> 00:11:09,035\n這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認\n\n31\n00:11:20,285 --> 00:11:41,895\n我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊\n\n32\n00:11:43,041 --> 00:12:09,834\n行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦\n\n33\n00:12:12,028 --> 00:12:31,158\n招牌一樣啊人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦\n\n34\n00:12:32,691 --> 00:12:54,360\n這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛\n\n35\n00:12:58,137 --> 00:13:08,085\n你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下\n\n36\n00:13:26,997 --> 00:13:27,198\n需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」\n\n37\n00:13:30,485 --> 00:13:57,413\n報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛\n\n38\n00:13:58,653 --> 00:14:14,159\n這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核\n\n39\n00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:47,448\n不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告\n\n40\n00:14:55,970 --> 00:15:23,147\n公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講\n\n41\n00:15:25,339 --> 00:15:46,735\n但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車\n\n42\n00:15:49,505 --> 00:16:00,271\n再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎\n\n43\n00:16:09,228 --> 00:16:29,499\n因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝\n\n44\n00:16:31,923 --> 00:16:36,313\n謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t27131\t謝謝主席喔,事事麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部喔,經濟部部長部長過來稍微等一下我說請那個經濟部跟交通部的同仁可以的話上來一起協助經濟部的要通知一下打電話給他,還經濟部要通知一下\n31813\t33755\t經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是經濟部的\n61144\t64727\t我說經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長\n87598\t112883\t各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中 strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港\n113983\t136216\t我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭\n138497\t153549\t第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都會掌握吧\n156127\t170057\t部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧\n172473\t186902\t這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現\n188183\t208806\t但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事\n209967\t237124\t他派了三席董事他派了三席董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他\n238525\t250022\t租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理\n254568\t271364\t就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友\n272105\t291840\t包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為\n293041\t312837\t因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的\n313922\t337179\t他也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫\n341670\t352822\t這個Project 2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭\n365188\t382455\t被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後\n389653\t412009\t那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼\n413050\t436521\t那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊\n437441\t441967\t最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊\n450374\t469439\t還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決\n470680\t489326\t那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎\n493314\t519108\t我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題\n520729\t547401\t牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛\n551024\t551425\t交通部的\n555714\t582936\t那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情\n584963\t598910\t中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕\n600083\t626030\t要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個\n628939\t649745\t繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容\n652962\t669035\t這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認\n680285\t701895\t我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊\n703041\t729834\t行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦\n732028\t751158\t招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦\n752691\t774360\t這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛\n778137\t788085\t你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下\n806997\t807198\t需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」\n810485\t837413\t報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛\n838653\t854159\t這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核\n868320\t887448\t不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告\n895970\t923147\t公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講\n925339\t946735\t但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車\n949505\t960271\t再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎\n969228\t989499\t因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝\n991923\t996313\t謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室\n","txt":"謝謝主席喔,事事麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部喔,經濟部部長部長過來稍微等一下我說請那個經濟部跟交通部的同仁可以的話上來一起協助經濟部的要通知一下打電話給他,還經濟部要通知一下\n經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是經濟部的\n我說經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長\n各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中 strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港\n我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭\n第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都會掌握吧\n部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧\n這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現\n但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事\n他派了三席董事他派了三席董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他\n租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理\n就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友\n包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為\n因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的\n他也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫\n這個Project 2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭\n被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後\n那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼\n那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊\n最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊\n還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決\n那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎\n我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題\n牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛\n交通部的\n那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情\n中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕\n要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個\n繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容\n這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認\n我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊\n行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦\n招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦\n這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛\n你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下\n需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」\n報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛\n這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核\n不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告\n公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講\n但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車\n再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎\n因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝\n謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:27.131\n謝謝主席喔,事事麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部喔,經濟部部長部長過來稍微等一下我說請那個經濟部跟交通部的同仁可以的話上來一起協助經濟部的要通知一下打電話給他,還經濟部要通知一下\n\n00:31.813 --> 00:33.755\n經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是經濟部的\n\n01:01.144 --> 01:04.727\n我說經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長\n\n01:27.598 --> 01:52.883\n各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港\n\n01:53.983 --> 02:16.216\n我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭\n\n02:18.497 --> 02:33.549\n第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都會掌握吧\n\n02:36.127 --> 02:50.057\n部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧\n\n02:52.473 --> 03:06.902\n這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現\n\n03:08.183 --> 03:28.806\n但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事\n\n03:29.967 --> 03:57.124\n他派了三席董事他派了三席董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他\n\n03:58.525 --> 04:10.022\n租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理\n\n04:14.568 --> 04:31.364\n就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友\n\n04:32.105 --> 04:51.840\n包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為\n\n04:53.041 --> 05:12.837\n因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的\n\n05:13.922 --> 05:37.179\n他也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫\n\n05:41.670 --> 05:52.822\n這個Project2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭\n\n06:05.188 --> 06:22.455\n被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後\n\n06:29.653 --> 06:52.009\n那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼\n\n06:53.050 --> 07:16.521\n那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊\n\n07:17.441 --> 07:21.967\n最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊\n\n07:30.374 --> 07:49.439\n還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決\n\n07:50.680 --> 08:09.326\n那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎\n\n08:13.314 --> 08:39.108\n我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題\n\n08:40.729 --> 09:07.401\n牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛\n\n09:11.024 --> 09:11.425\n交通部的\n\n09:15.714 --> 09:42.936\n那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project2049大家都在關心這一件事情\n\n09:44.963 --> 09:58.910\n中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕\n\n10:00.083 --> 10:26.030\n要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個\n\n10:28.939 --> 10:49.745\n繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容\n\n10:52.962 --> 11:09.035\n這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認\n\n11:20.285 --> 11:41.895\n我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊\n\n11:43.041 --> 12:09.834\n行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦\n\n12:12.028 --> 12:31.158\n招牌一樣啊人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦\n\n12:32.691 --> 12:54.360\n這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛\n\n12:58.137 --> 13:08.085\n你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下\n\n13:26.997 --> 13:27.198\n需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」\n\n13:30.485 --> 13:57.413\n報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛\n\n13:58.653 --> 14:14.159\n這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核\n\n14:28.320 --> 14:47.448\n不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告\n\n14:55.970 --> 15:23.147\n公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講\n\n15:25.339 --> 15:46.735\n但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車\n\n15:49.505 --> 16:00.271\n再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎\n\n16:09.228 --> 16:29.499\n因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝\n\n16:31.923 --> 16:36.313\n謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":27.131,"text":"謝謝主席喔,事事麻煩有請國防部的顧部長請顧部長然後交通部跟經濟部的代表如果可以的話就一起上來協助經濟部喔,經濟部部長部長過來稍微等一下我說請那個經濟部跟交通部的同仁可以的話上來一起協助經濟部的要通知一下打電話給他,還經濟部要通知一下"},{"start":31.813,"end":33.755,"text":"經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在是不是經濟部的"},{"start":61.144,"end":64.727,"text":"我說經濟部跟交通部如果有同仁在的話上來協助部長"},{"start":87.598,"end":112.883,"text":"各位好,時間的關係不一一問候中國對於台灣的威脅以及所謂的國衛中 strategy我想最近幾年受到了不僅僅是台灣國際社會關心台灣國家安全的都很關注一直到今年CSIS還是一直試解說中國主要的target是高雄港"},{"start":113.983,"end":136.216,"text":"我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注說中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄的入侵我們的高雄港其中有兩個重要的target一個是第六貨櫃中心一個是65跟66號碼頭"},{"start":138.497,"end":153.549,"text":"第6戶口中心控制的這個高明碼頭公司裡面有個大股東叫做振隆投資公司振隆投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院這件事情應該大家都會掌握吧"},{"start":156.127,"end":170.057,"text":"部長如果不清楚請經濟部的回答沒關係我在國安會的時候有對這個事情有一些了解是那這個正榮投資公司他的母公司應該是中共的國務院我應該沒有理解錯誤吧"},{"start":172.473,"end":186.902,"text":"這個是我當初整理的資料這次準備這個質詢的時候我把2018年最終的歷程到今天我完整的再把它回顧一次有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現"},{"start":188.183,"end":208.806,"text":"但是這件事情應該沒有錯第一個可能比較關鍵的問題就是說因為控制我們第六碼頭的公司高明碼頭股份有限公司竟然有個大股東他如果只是當股東危害相對有嚴輕可是他派了三席董事"},{"start":209.967,"end":237.124,"text":"他派了三席董事他派了三席董事然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司部長你覺得適合嗎這部分我在國安會的時候我了解就是說他是應該是我們有去了解就是說他的這個資安的這個部分應該有去了解那另外好像是一個他"},{"start":238.525,"end":250.022,"text":"租用跟這個碼頭相關的一個措施部長我跟你澄清一下分兩個部分你剛剛租用的那個是不是有相關的規範那個是6566碼頭的現在我先跟你處理"},{"start":254.568,"end":271.364,"text":"就是有關於高米碼頭的部分第六貨櫃中心第一個就是說我可能要拜託大家注意一下因為這個已經引起了國際社會大家的關注特別是我們的盟友"},{"start":272.105,"end":291.84,"text":"包括日本、包括美國大家都很關注因為這個事情不是今天才發生我為什麼這樣子講就是剛剛部長所講的65、66號碼頭我2018年質疑的時候那時候經濟部回落說租賃港口不是投資行為"},{"start":293.041,"end":312.837,"text":"因為這是租賃行為而不是投資行為所以投審會不會去管這件事情但問題是說在司法上的關係到底是租還是其他的方式我們在意的事情是什麼我們在意的事情是碼頭是不是被人家控制了即使是租的"},{"start":313.922,"end":337.179,"text":"他也有管領使用權。」那這樣是不是一個適合的行為當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字說這個是租賃行為這不是投資行為所以他們管不到那這樣的說法我老實講大家沒有辦法接受啦從國家安全的角度來講這樣的說法簡直是在開玩笑到2021年的時候美國智庫"},{"start":341.67,"end":352.822,"text":"這個Project 2049我相信部長很熟悉,非常的有名又再度的示警中國的國際、國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭2022年法國的一個週刊一樣用封面故事又繼續的關注我們的高雄碼頭"},{"start":365.188,"end":382.455,"text":"被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題從2018年可能我們那個時候在立法院質詢的時候人為言輕沒有引發太多的關注我們經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼結果等到2021年、2022年從美國到法國大家都在關切這個問題了以後"},{"start":389.653,"end":412.009,"text":"那個時候就像部長說的您在擔任國安會秘書長的時候你說都有完全掌握有詳細的規劃會有相關的處理這個是你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳教華委員的時候說會有相關的處理所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼"},{"start":413.05,"end":436.521,"text":"那個時候經濟部回應終於承認當初在2018年的時候我們在講的事情是真的終於承認了拖了4年以後終於承認說有入資的背景說到2024年9月底的時候契約期滿不會再續約這個是2022年說的但問題是什麼但問題是我一直追啊"},{"start":437.441,"end":441.967,"text":"最後到今年今年已經2024年嘛因為當初2025年開的條件是到2024就不會再續約嘛結果我發現到2024年的時候還是在繼續續約啊"},{"start":450.374,"end":469.439,"text":"還是在繼續續約。」這個時候港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點2022年承認說有入資的背景結果到2024年發現我也覺得很奇怪當初我們市警請行政部門重視也說要解決"},{"start":470.68,"end":489.326,"text":"那說到了今年九月不會再續約結果我發現今年九月還是繼續續約下去啊這是怎麼回事啊部長你有掌握嗎因為我現在沒有沒有在我在國防部所以經濟部隊有掌握嗎跟委員報告不好意思因為這不是我的業管業務交通部隊有掌握嗎"},{"start":493.314,"end":519.108,"text":"我們在例行性的查核都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港公司就租界地上所有經營單位的包括所有自動化吊車這些系統做必要的了解至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年是不是因為今天我們這個沒有足夠的我這樣講好了啦就是我今天想要直學的主題"},{"start":520.729,"end":547.401,"text":"牽涉到解放軍未來透過灰色地帶、蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖的國安危機絕對是今天質詢的主題那部長可能有部長的權責經濟部的也好、交通部的也好特別是我拜讀的交通部所提出來的今天的報告這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施定義上應該沒有問題嘛"},{"start":551.024,"end":551.425,"text":"交通部的"},{"start":555.714,"end":582.936,"text":"那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情外國的媒體寫成這個樣子我持續的在追蹤結果在你們今天的報告裡面一個字都沒寫那既然一個字都沒寫我就大短的預測啊可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題但我覺得這是很重要的問題也不是只有我一個人覺得這是一個重要的問題從CSIS到Project 2049大家都在關心這一件事情"},{"start":584.963,"end":598.91,"text":"中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港甚至要控制裡面的碼頭這絕對是國家安全等級的事情不會彼此之間橫向的聯繫我覺得恐怕"},{"start":600.083,"end":626.03,"text":"要再加強如果沒有加強的話可能就是相關要負責處理國家安全的機構可能跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我這件事情為什麼本來說不出了現在又繼續出第二個"},{"start":628.939,"end":649.745,"text":"繼續租下去是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題還是外國人他們窮緊張我們外國的盟友很重視我們自己不當一回事這件事情很重要是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答覆我今天質詢的內容"},{"start":652.962,"end":669.035,"text":"這邊向委員報告那我們目前所很清楚的向委員報告目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營那特別是在羊鳴海運方面羊鳴海運仍然是第一大股東他持股是47.5%現在就分兩個層次嘛你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容羊鳴海運是第一大股東這個我不否認"},{"start":680.285,"end":701.895,"text":"我現在的問題是說中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事你們覺得有沒有關係我覺得有關係啦我覺得有關係啊所以處請你們注意啊我們如果行政部門覺得沒有關係啊就大聲勇敢的出來告訴全體國人啊"},{"start":703.041,"end":729.834,"text":"行政部門覺得這個貨櫃中心的公司裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的你們覺得沒有關係就大聲勇敢地講我的立場是有關係啊我就是認為有關係才要你們處理嘛第二個 你說6566碼頭現在已經完全換成台灣人經營的公司我今天其實點出來就是要點你們這個啦"},{"start":732.028,"end":751.158,"text":"招牌一樣啊 人一樣啊我再講一次啦招牌一樣營業場所一樣營業的人都同一套用一個台灣公司換一個招牌你們就被晃點過去喔這樣老共要滲透台灣的碼頭太容易啦"},{"start":752.691,"end":774.36,"text":"這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題我再講一次啊招牌一樣、人一樣、營業據點一樣換一個台灣公司的名稱你們就被晃點過去啦來看一下上面的董事長看起來好像都是台灣人跟台灣東方海外後面根本是什麼根本是同一套人嘛"},{"start":778.137,"end":788.085,"text":"你如果有一點政治敏感度啊再往前追再往前追是什麼當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊當初陳宇林來台灣的時候就是這一群人在搞的啊這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下"},{"start":806.997,"end":807.198,"text":"需要嗎?還是覺得沒有必要?」"},{"start":810.485,"end":837.413,"text":"報告委員,交通部回去會就委員的槌尋會給詳細的書面資料但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程會要已經十足的要求我們的監理單位、航港局以及被行政授權的港公司就日常的監理業務以及港務經營要對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解這個是本來就是要做的事嘛"},{"start":838.653,"end":854.159,"text":"這是本來要做的事嘛跟我今天質詢你的重點背後已經有入資的企業在控制的這個碼頭是兩回事嘛如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛中國國企來控制也沒問題啊因為都有你剛剛所講的嘛你已經強化了碼頭什麼要求要作業要查核"},{"start":868.32,"end":887.448,"text":"不管是什麼公司那本來就是你們要做的嘛其實是台灣公司也是你們要做的嘛但大家在意的是什麼在意的是背後的公司有入資的成分的時候對於台灣來講我再強調一次我們的國際友人都看不下去只有你們自己沒藥沒金不要只給我書面報告"},{"start":895.97,"end":923.147,"text":"公開的跟台灣社會說明你們覺得沒有關係都控制得了控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係租借了碼頭出去表面上好像掛台灣公司背後都同一套人馬當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人馬你們也覺得沒有關係那就大聲勇敢的跟台灣社會講"},{"start":925.339,"end":946.735,"text":"但我為什麼提這個事情質詢因為我覺得有關係我覺得很重要我覺得應該要處理但我們沒有任何行政權利立法委員站在這邊只能夠善盡言則當然講得難聽一點從2018年到2024年我比較深刻的感受是狗肺火車"},{"start":949.505,"end":960.271,"text":"再麻煩我們的交通部再麻煩我們的經濟部如果可以的話是不是麻煩我們的國安部部長請國安體系的人一起介入了解就像您當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":969.228,"end":989.499,"text":"因為我現在不是國安會的但是我這樣說好了啦政府要有橫向聯繫這件事情國防部要重視我這樣說部長應該不會否認吧是是所以我跟那個我請國安會來了解一下相關的這些涉及到的國安議題OK好謝謝"},{"start":991.923,"end":996.313,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員那請經濟部和交通部請書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時45分）謝謝主席。是不是麻煩有請國防部的顧部長？"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：然後請交通部跟經濟部的代表，如果可以的話，就一起上來協助。請經濟部跟交通部的同仁，可以的話，上來一起協助。經濟部跟交通部現在都沒有人在，是不是？我說經濟部跟交通部，如果有同仁在的話，上來協助部長。","各位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。中國對於臺灣的威脅，以及所謂的grey zone strategy，最近幾年來，受到了不僅僅是臺灣，還包含國際社會關心臺灣國家安全的，都很關注，一直到今年，CSIS還是一直示警，說中國主要的target的是高雄港。我其實2018年的時候就開始關注這個議題，那個時候我人是第一次在立法院的時候，因為那個時候國際的媒體開始關注中國所控制的公司正在靜悄悄地入侵我們的高雄港，其中有兩個重要的target，一個是第六貨櫃中心，一個是65號跟66號碼頭。第六貨櫃中心控制的高明碼頭公司，裡面有一個大股東叫做政龍投資公司，政龍投資公司最後的母公司是中共的國務院，這件事情應該大家都有掌握吧？部長如果不清楚，請經濟部的同仁回答沒關係。"],["顧部長立雄：我在國安會的時候，對這個事情有一些瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：是。那這個政龍投資公司，它的母公司應該是中共的國務院，我應該沒有理解錯誤吧？這個是我當初整理的資料，這一次準備這個質詢的時候，我把2018年追蹤的歷程到今天我完整地再把它回顧了一次，有一些資料更新的部分等一下會呈現，但是這件事情應該沒有錯。第一個，可能比較關鍵的問題就是，一個控制我們的第六碼頭的公司，高明碼頭股份有限公司，竟然有一個大股東，它如果只是當股東，危害相對輕，可是它派了三席董事，它派了三席董事，它派了三席董事，然後這樣控制我們碼頭的公司，部長，你覺得適合嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這部分我在國安會的時候，我們有去瞭解，就是說，它的資安的部分，應該有去瞭解。另外，好像是它租用跟這個碼頭的一個相關的措施……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你澄清一下，分兩個部分，你剛剛說的租用的那個相關的規範，那個是65號和66號碼頭的，現在我先跟你處理的，就是有關於高明碼頭公司的部分，就是第六貨櫃中心。第一個，我可能要拜託大家注意一下，因為這個已經引起了國際社會的關注，特別是我們的盟友，包括日本，包括美國，大家都很關注，因為這個事情不是今天才發生，我為什麼這樣子講？就是剛剛部長所講的，65號、66號碼頭，我2018年質疑的時候，那時候經濟部回我說租賃港口不是投資行為，是租賃行為，而不是投資行為，所以投審會不會去管這件事情，但問題是說，在司法上的關係到底是租，還是其他的方式？我們在意的事情是什麼？我們在意的事情是，碼頭是不是被人家控制了？即使是租的，它也有管理使用權，那這樣是不是一個適合的行為？當初經濟部投審會可以說是在法條上面說文解字，說這是租賃行為，這不是投資行為，所以他們管不到。這樣的說法，我老實講，大家沒有辦法接受，從國家安全的角度來講，這樣的說法，簡直是在開玩笑。","當2021年的時候，美國智庫「Project 2049」，我相信部長很熟悉，非常有名，現在它又再度示警，說中國的國企控制著我們的高雄碼頭；2022年法國的一個週刊，一樣用封面故事，又繼續關注我們的高雄碼頭被中國國企入侵這樣子的問題。從2018年我們在立法院質詢，可能那個時候我們人微言輕，沒有引發太多的關注，經濟部的官員也覺得這沒有什麼，結果等到2021年、2022年，從美國到法國，大家都在關切這個問題了以後，那個時候就像部長說的，你在擔任國安會秘書長的時候，你說都有完全掌握，有詳細的規劃，會有相關的處理。你那個時候在回答上一屆立委陳椒華委員的時候，說會有相關的處理，所以我後續就去追蹤所謂相關的處理是什麼。那個時候經濟部在回應時終於承認，當初在2018年的時候，我們在講的事情是真的，終於承認了，拖了四年以後，終於承認，說有陸資的背景。說到2024年9月底的時候，契約期滿不會再續約。這個是2022年說的，但問題是什麼？但問題是我一直追，追到今年，今年已經2024年，因為當初2022年開的條件是到2024年就不會再續約了，結果我發現到2024年的時候，還是在繼續續約，還是在繼續續約，那這個時候，港務公司的說明又回到2018年的原點，2022年承認說有陸資的背景，結果到2024年發現，我又覺得很奇怪，當初我們示警，請行政部門重視，也說要解決，說到了今年9月不會再續約，結果我發現今年9月還是繼續續約下去，這是怎麼回事啊？部長，你有掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我現在在國防部，所以這個……"],["黃委員國昌：經濟部有掌握嗎？"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，不好意思，因為這不是我的業管業務。"],["黃委員國昌：交通部有掌握嗎？"],["張司長垂龍：報告委員，我們在例行性的查核，都會要求監理機關、航港局跟港務公司，就租借地上所有經營單位，包括所有自動化吊車這些系統，做必要的瞭解。至於剛剛委員您所提示的2024年回到2018年的原點，因為今天我們沒有足夠的……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，就是我今天想要質詢的主題，牽涉到解放軍未來透過「灰色地帶」、「蟒蛇戰略」對臺灣封鎖的國安危機，絕對是今天質詢的主題，那部長可能有部長的權責，經濟部的也好，交通部的也好，特別是我拜讀了交通部所提出來的今天的報告，這個絕對是關鍵基礎設施嘛！高雄港是我們的關鍵基礎設施，定義上應該沒有問題嘛？交通部的？"],["張司長垂龍：是，報告委員，是一級關鍵設施。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，那這樣的設施發生這樣的事情，外國的媒體寫成這個樣子，我持續地在追蹤，結果在你們今天的報告裡，一個字都沒寫，既然一個字都沒寫，我就大膽地預測，可能你們覺得這不是什麼重要的問題，但我覺得這是很重要的問題，也不是只有我1個人覺得這是一個很重要的問題，從CSIS到Project 2049，大家都在關心這一件事情，中國解放軍要封鎖我們高雄港，甚至要控制裡面的碼頭，這絕對是國家安全等級的事情，部會彼此之間橫向的聯繫，我覺得恐怕要再加強，如果沒有加強的話，負責處理國家安全的相關機構跟相關主管機關的業務有overlap的時候，可能會搞到不曉得要怎麼辦。是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面回答我，這一件事情為什麼本來說不租了，現在又繼續租？第二個，繼續租下去，是不是100%確保沒有國家安全的問題？還是外國人他們窮緊張？我們外國的盟友很重視，我們自己不當一回事。這件事情很重要，是不是可以請經濟部跟交通部會後用書面答復我今天質詢的內容？"],["張司長垂龍：向委員報告，我們很清楚地向委員報告，目前65號、66號碼頭是本國人經營，特別是在股權方面，陽明海運仍然是第一大股東，持股47.5%。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，現在就分兩個層次嘛﹗你完全回到我以前在質詢的內容，陽明海運是第一大股東，這個我不否認，我現在的問題是說，中共國務院控制的公司在我們的碼頭公司裡面有三席董事，你們覺得有沒有關係？我覺得有關係啦！我覺得有關係啊！所以促請你們注意。如果行政部門覺得沒有關係，就大聲勇敢地出來告訴全體國人，行政部門覺得，這一個貨櫃中心的公司，裡面有三席董事背後是由中共國務院派的，你們覺得沒有關係，就大聲勇敢地講，我的立場是覺得有關係，我就是認為有關係，才要你們處理嘛﹗","第二個，你說65號、66號碼頭現在已經完全換成臺灣人經營的公司，我今天點出來就是要點你們這個，招牌一樣，人一樣。我再講一次，招牌一樣，營業場所一樣，營業的人都同一套，用一個臺灣公司換一個招牌，你們就被晃點過去喔？這樣老共要滲透臺灣的碼頭太容易了。這個就是我今天為什麼要把它提出來問的問題。我再講一次，招牌一樣，人一樣，營業據點一樣，換一個臺灣公司的名稱，你們就被晃點過去了。來，看一下，上面的董事長，看起來好像都是臺灣人，跟臺灣東方海外股份有限公司後面根本是什麼？根本是同一套人嘛。你如果有一點政治敏感度，再往前追，再往前追是什麼？當初陳雲林來臺灣的時候，就是這一群人在搞的啊！當初陳雲林來臺灣的時候，就是這一群人在搞的啊！這樣叫做有國家安全的意識喔？經濟部、交通部要不要再回去好好審視一下？需要嗎？還是覺得沒有必要？"],["張司長垂龍：報告委員，交通部回去會就委員的垂詢，給詳細的書面資料。但是我剛剛有特別向委員報告，交通部在例行性的查核跟訪視過程，已經十足地要求我們的監理單位航港局及被行政授權的港務公司，就日常的監理業務及港務經營，對所有的經營業務系統做必要的瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是本來就要做的事嘛！這個是本來要做的事嘛！跟我今天質詢你的重點，背後已經有陸資的企業在控制這個碼頭，是兩回事嘛！如果你剛剛那樣子的說明是成立的話，我們根本不要管那是哪裡來的公司嘛，中國國企來控制也沒問題啊。因為都有你剛剛所講的，你已經強化了碼頭的作業和查核，不管是什麼公司，那本來就是你們要做的嘛！即使是臺灣公司，也是你們要做的嘛。但大家在意的是什麼？在意的是背後的公司有陸資的成分的時候，對於臺灣來講，我再強調一次，我們的國際友人都看不下去，只有你們自己「無要無緊」。不要只給我書面報告，公開地跟臺灣社會說明，你們覺得沒有關係，都控制得了，控制我們碼頭的公司有中共國務院的公司派三席董事沒有關係，租借了碼頭出去，表面上好像掛臺灣公司的名，背後都同一套人嘛。就當初陳雲林來的時候跟他一起搞的人嘛！你們也覺得沒有關係，那就大聲勇敢地跟台灣社會講。但我為什麼提這個事情質詢？因為我覺得有關係，我覺得很重要，我覺得應該要處理，但我們沒有任何行政權力，立法委員站在這邊，只能夠善盡言責，當然講得難聽一點，從2018年到2024年，我比較深刻的感受是狗吠火車。再麻煩我們的交通部，再麻煩我們的經濟部，如果可以的話，是不是麻煩我們的國安部門，部長請國安體系的人一起進入瞭解，就像您當初當國安會的秘書長的時候一樣，這樣可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我現在不是國安會的，我瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，政府要有橫向聯繫，這件事情國防部要重視，我這樣說，部長應該不會否認吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。所以我會請國安會來瞭解一下這些涉及到的國安議題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員。請經濟部和交通部以書面回答黃國昌委員辦公室。然後部長請回。","接下來請張啓楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}