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\"end\": 281.431, \"text\": \"我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 257.06, \"end\": 257.18, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 257.18, \"end\": 257.76, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 257.76, \"end\": 257.98, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"干\", \"start\": 257.98, \"end\": 258.141, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 258.141, \"end\": 258.481, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 258.481, \"end\": 258.661, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 258.661, \"end\": 258.761, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 258.761, \"end\": 258.781, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 258.781, \"end\": 258.841, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 258.841, \"end\": 259.101, \"score\": 0.919}, 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\"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1075.818, \"end\": 1076.098, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1076.098, \"end\": 1076.318, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1076.318, \"end\": 1076.558, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1076.558, \"end\": 1076.938, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1076.938, \"end\": 1076.958, \"score\": 0.075}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:30,369\n請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分\n\n2\n00:00:31,325 --> 00:00:46,467\n那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛\n\n3\n00:00:47,130 --> 00:01:15,892\n那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛\n\n4\n00:01:17,328 --> 00:01:38,990\n那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦\n\n5\n00:01:40,035 --> 00:01:57,870\n連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情\n\n6\n00:01:58,490 --> 00:02:16,690\n政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的\n\n7\n00:02:18,203 --> 00:02:43,242\n好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼\n\n8\n00:02:44,403 --> 00:03:11,194\n我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講\n\n9\n00:03:12,535 --> 00:03:32,062\n部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子\n\n10\n00:03:33,015 --> 00:03:55,868\n那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說\n\n11\n00:03:57,591 --> 00:04:15,819\n你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說\n\n12\n00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:41,431\n我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員\n\n13\n00:04:45,894 --> 00:05:04,273\n說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為\n\n14\n00:05:06,972 --> 00:05:19,689\n這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的\n\n15\n00:05:22,351 --> 00:05:44,758\n部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。\n\n16\n00:05:46,258 --> 00:06:14,246\n所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊\n\n17\n00:06:16,021 --> 00:06:41,923\n然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關\n\n18\n00:06:44,164 --> 00:06:44,184\n吳宗憲\n\n19\n00:07:05,092 --> 00:07:25,444\n我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他\n\n20\n00:07:26,696 --> 00:07:55,503\n所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體\n\n21\n00:07:56,860 --> 00:08:22,812\n這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛\n\n22\n00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:32,181\n委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在\n\n23\n00:08:52,998 --> 00:08:53,058\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n\n24\n00:09:19,271 --> 00:09:33,307\n羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎\n\n25\n00:09:34,668 --> 00:10:02,530\n這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看\n\n26\n00:10:03,572 --> 00:10:09,989\n檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說\n\n27\n00:10:11,192 --> 00:10:36,182\n媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西\n\n28\n00:10:38,171 --> 00:10:55,095\n那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以\n\n29\n00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:24,482\n講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼\n\n30\n00:11:26,244 --> 00:11:53,131\n請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長\n\n31\n00:11:54,428 --> 00:11:54,608\n我我我我\n\n32\n00:12:21,929 --> 00:12:49,895\n我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊\n\n33\n00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:51,335\n那個PVT跳一下\n\n34\n00:13:16,004 --> 00:13:21,324\n人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸\n\n35\n00:13:22,694 --> 00:13:32,536\n那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是\n\n36\n00:13:49,500 --> 00:14:03,559\n所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為\n\n37\n00:14:06,789 --> 00:14:27,527\n因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手\n\n38\n00:14:29,429 --> 00:14:45,928\n那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成\n\n39\n00:14:50,015 --> 00:15:02,735\n賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者\n\n40\n00:15:03,601 --> 00:15:30,635\n所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重\n\n41\n00:15:32,421 --> 00:15:57,324\n那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力\n\n42\n00:15:59,363 --> 00:16:26,837\n我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開\n\n43\n00:16:28,158 --> 00:16:28,178\n吳宗憲議員\n\n44\n00:16:49,048 --> 00:17:07,047\n我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去\n\n45\n00:17:08,088 --> 00:17:36,442\n好謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體\n\n46\n00:17:37,452 --> 00:17:56,958\n好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7220\t30369\t請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分\n31325\t46467\t那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛\n47130\t75892\t那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛\n77328\t98990\t那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦\n100035\t117870\t連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情\n118490\t136690\t政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的\n138203\t163242\t好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼\n164403\t191194\t我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講\n192535\t212062\t部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子\n213015\t235868\t那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說\n237591\t255819\t你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說\n257060\t281431\t我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員\n285894\t304273\t說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為\n306972\t319689\t這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的\n322351\t344758\t部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。\n346258\t374246\t所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊\n376021\t401923\t然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關\n404164\t404184\t吳宗憲\n425092\t445444\t我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他\n446696\t475503\t所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體\n476860\t502812\t這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛\n504960\t512181\t委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在\n532998\t533058\t吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n559271\t573307\t羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎\n574668\t602530\t這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看\n603572\t609989\t檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說\n611192\t636182\t媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西\n638171\t655095\t那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以\n661316\t684482\t講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼\n686244\t713131\t請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長\n714428\t714608\t我我我我\n741929\t769895\t我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊\n771015\t771335\t那個PVT跳一下\n796004\t801324\t人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸\n802694\t812536\t那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是\n829500\t843559\t所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為\n846789\t867527\t因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手\n869429\t885928\t那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成\n890015\t902735\t賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者\n903601\t930635\t所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重\n932421\t957324\t那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力\n959363\t986837\t我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開\n988158\t988178\t吳宗憲議員\n1009048\t1027047\t我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去\n1028088\t1056442\t好 謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體\n1057452\t1076958\t好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長\n","txt":"請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分\n那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛\n那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛\n那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦\n連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情\n政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的\n好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼\n我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講\n部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子\n那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說\n你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說\n我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員\n說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為\n這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的\n部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。\n所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊\n然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關\n吳宗憲\n我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他\n所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體\n這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛\n委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎\n這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看\n檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說\n媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西\n那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以\n講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼\n請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長\n我我我我\n我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊\n那個PVT跳一下\n人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸\n那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是\n所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為\n因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手\n那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成\n賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者\n所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重\n那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力\n我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開\n吳宗憲議員\n我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去\n好 謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體\n好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.220 --> 00:30.369\n請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分\n\n00:31.325 --> 00:46.467\n那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛\n\n00:47.130 --> 01:15.892\n那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛\n\n01:17.328 --> 01:38.990\n那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦\n\n01:40.035 --> 01:57.870\n連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情\n\n01:58.490 --> 02:16.690\n政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的\n\n02:18.203 --> 02:43.242\n好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼\n\n02:44.403 --> 03:11.194\n我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講\n\n03:12.535 --> 03:32.062\n部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子\n\n03:33.015 --> 03:55.868\n那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說\n\n03:57.591 --> 04:15.819\n你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說\n\n04:17.060 --> 04:41.431\n我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員\n\n04:45.894 --> 05:04.273\n說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為\n\n05:06.972 --> 05:19.689\n這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的\n\n05:22.351 --> 05:44.758\n部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。\n\n05:46.258 --> 06:14.246\n所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊\n\n06:16.021 --> 06:41.923\n然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關\n\n06:44.164 --> 06:44.184\n吳宗憲\n\n07:05.092 --> 07:25.444\n我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他\n\n07:26.696 --> 07:55.503\n所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體\n\n07:56.860 --> 08:22.812\n這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛\n\n08:24.960 --> 08:32.181\n委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在\n\n08:52.998 --> 08:53.058\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員\n\n09:19.271 --> 09:33.307\n羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎\n\n09:34.668 --> 10:02.530\n這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看\n\n10:03.572 --> 10:09.989\n檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說\n\n10:11.192 --> 10:36.182\n媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西\n\n10:38.171 --> 10:55.095\n那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以\n\n11:01.316 --> 11:24.482\n講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼\n\n11:26.244 --> 11:53.131\n請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長\n\n11:54.428 --> 11:54.608\n我我我我\n\n12:21.929 --> 12:49.895\n我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊\n\n12:51.015 --> 12:51.335\n那個PVT跳一下\n\n13:16.004 --> 13:21.324\n人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸\n\n13:22.694 --> 13:32.536\n那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是\n\n13:49.500 --> 14:03.559\n所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為\n\n14:06.789 --> 14:27.527\n因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手\n\n14:29.429 --> 14:45.928\n那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成\n\n14:50.015 --> 15:02.735\n賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者\n\n15:03.601 --> 15:30.635\n所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重\n\n15:32.421 --> 15:57.324\n那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力\n\n15:59.363 --> 16:26.837\n我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開\n\n16:28.158 --> 16:28.178\n吳宗憲議員\n\n16:49.048 --> 17:07.047\n我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去\n\n17:08.088 --> 17:36.442\n好謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體\n\n17:37.452 --> 17:56.958\n好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.22,"end":30.369,"text":"請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長有請法務部長、警政署副署長部長我想說我還是跟你一樣提到偵查不公開的這個部分"},{"start":31.325,"end":46.467,"text":"那其實我跟你說我這邊我算是偵查不公開的違反偵查不公開的被害人啦所以你看剛剛中任委熊委員還會虧說半媽媽嘴命案那個時候的事情嘛"},{"start":47.13,"end":75.892,"text":"那我覺得你看這個案子其實連被害人都出來講說當初懲辦那個案子然後違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官那我是進去救援幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官連這樣子風馬牛不相及的在幾年後都會被拿來被特定人士拿來做文章說我就是違反偵查不公開那位懲辦檢察官所以我對於這個違反偵查不公開我是變成是另類的被害人嘛"},{"start":77.328,"end":98.99,"text":"那當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官我從來沒有被調查過因為跟我根本沒關但是就會有政客們就會拿來做這樣子的宣傳所以你說這個東西對人沒有傷害嗎?對被告沒有傷害嗎?我在這邊跟你講一定有啦"},{"start":100.035,"end":117.87,"text":"連我只是當年的一個懲辦另外一個懲辦講話我都會覺得不是那麼愉快嘛所以這東西其實對人權的傷害是很大的那我再提一個剛剛那個沈伯陽委員提到的政文慘案子那我再跟部長報告一件事情"},{"start":118.49,"end":136.69,"text":"政文災難我從辦到我離開檢方到我到市府到我到立法院我遇過太多人尤其綠營一直跟我說叫我出來爆料叫我出來講那段時間監聽到的包括鄭先生包括其他政治人物的一些八卦不管要給我什麼給我什麼樣的"},{"start":138.203,"end":163.242,"text":"好處或什麼我從來沒有答應我也一次都沒有講所以過去10年過去這麼多年我從來沒有提因為我尊重我以前那一份工作即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦了有部分跟我以前查辦的有關記者來問我我也一定說跟以前案子我以前辦的跟現在案子有關我一定不回答這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重所以你去看為什麼"},{"start":164.403,"end":191.194,"text":"我這麼多年來我都不談那個案子即便我離開檢方即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了我還是不講就現在的案子不是啊亂講一通到處洩密然後我剛剛其實我聽我跟部長講的我聽我不是很滿意剛羅志強委員在那邊問現在問的這個然後就有其他委員說這政治力干涉個案這跟個案怎麼可以放在這邊講"},{"start":192.535,"end":212.062,"text":"部長啊你就跟吳司要委員吳司要委員不懂法律就算了我已經習慣了但部長你懂啊干涉個案跟這個有什麼關干涉個案應該是我們對於辦案人員他怎麼去偵查案件我們下手去干涉這才算那今天你一個案子的資料外洩媒體報成那樣子"},{"start":213.015,"end":235.868,"text":"那立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查的內容泄出去這叫什麼干涉個案然後你還可以在那邊跟吳志堯那邊一搭一唱我跟你講我這受夠好幾次這樣子那我就說我把我說的話我都講得清清楚楚我不喜歡在那邊說一些有的沒有的但是我跟你說這個跟干涉個案完全無關不然你去找一個理論你去找個實務界來說"},{"start":237.591,"end":255.819,"text":"你今天承辦的人把資料外洩出去然後現在人家質疑說你怎麼可以外洩這個資料這個叫做干涉個案嗎我跟你講這個你們這樣子定義或者是陪著那些政客在那邊裝傻不懂法律我覺得真的沒有意思所以我剛剛才跟部長先報告說"},{"start":257.06,"end":281.431,"text":"我不認為這叫干涉個案所以我現在跟你講清楚干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們他所謂身去指導檢察官辦案那才叫干涉個案你自己違法在線外洩了偵查資料被人家質疑了這叫什麼干涉個案部長如果我有講錯部長歡迎你來反駁我我都沒有意見那請問剛剛羅志強委員"},{"start":285.894,"end":304.273,"text":"說了這個東西,部長你這叫干涉個案嗎?部長我們也主張就是不要含沙射影就是有些媒體的報導就認為這是檢察官或者偵查的團隊去洩漏的因為"},{"start":306.972,"end":319.689,"text":"這個對偵辦案件並沒有好處我們也是呼籲任何人有接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講也不能說有接觸的就認為就是檢察官去講出去的我認為這麼而且講出去是不是真的"},{"start":322.351,"end":344.758,"text":"部長,我認同你講,但你沒回答我的問題啊。不是,部長,我問你剛回答的我認同,但是我沒有,你沒有回答到我問題。確實我們不要去打擊辦案人員的士氣,我絕對支持這句話,畢竟我就是跟他們一起這樣,從年輕到現在的好朋友一路這樣過來。"},{"start":346.258,"end":374.246,"text":"所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情我說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的我其實我跟你講我們先跳到後面當年我在搜索桃園市政府的時候我帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索外界到晚上才知道這件事情從搜索我一大早去搜索一直到晚上這中間沒有任何人知道這才叫偵查不公開啊"},{"start":376.021,"end":401.923,"text":"然後我自己在檢方的時代一堆人叫我出來講我離開檢方之後也一堆人叫我出來講我也不去介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥我也一律不講不管你跟我說什麼好處我不講就是不講因為我對於檢察官這工作的尊敬我是在這樣做事情的所以我非常討厭偵查不公開更不要講說後來你說媽媽嘴那事情莫名其妙一堆人說扯說我跟那個案子跟那個洩密有關"},{"start":404.164,"end":404.184,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":425.092,"end":445.444,"text":"我也覺得開庭開得很順對他也很客氣但是那個當事人走的時候他回過頭來跟我講一句他不是跟我謝謝他是跟我說警察官你一張船票害了我一輩子因為自從收到那張貪污自罪條例暗游的船票之後他的長官把他放到最邊邊沒有人敢跟他說話回家每天家裡面的老婆小孩都在擔心他"},{"start":446.696,"end":475.503,"text":"所以我們不要說一張傳票一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響你可以去我以前帶過的學藝司法官我每一個我都跟他講過這個例子所以我們在辦案的時候要非常的小心就你今天我們不講不講哪一個特定的案子我一直說不管哪一個黨啦現在目前國會的三黨每一黨都都中槍過都受了偵查不公開違反偵查不公開的損害然後都永遠是特定媒體"},{"start":476.86,"end":502.812,"text":"這我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子那檢討小組成立這麼久以來我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署的高階的人被處分全部也都沒有啊所以這到底怎麼回事是記者有特權嗎他可以就是去問到偵查的細節嗎怎麼可以這樣子呢然後你今天雖然你跟我們講他講的那些東西可能是以訛傳訛"},{"start":504.96,"end":512.181,"text":"委員你也清楚了就是能夠接觸到這一種偵查的程序內容的很多嘛那我們也希望就是每個地方都要注意啦那現在大家都一直把目光就是集中在"},{"start":532.998,"end":533.058,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":559.271,"end":573.307,"text":"羅志強委員在做會議詢問的時候他也問我說現在偵查主體是誰那檢察官嘛那檢察官是指揮官那不管底下誰洩密那檢察官可以衝走一攤不是我所以跟我無關嗎"},{"start":574.668,"end":602.53,"text":"這也不對嘛他是指揮官啊所以我們這部分我們有各地檢署不是都有在分案包括從桃園各地檢署辦這些社會組織案件外界只要任何的質疑我們就全部有分案在做處理調查嘛那這個案件我們也不是說不來的話就叫人問就把它截掉了來你看一下檢察官論壇齁這個不是我請以前的同事給我我不幹這種事情的這都是媒體上面披露的你自己看"},{"start":603.572,"end":609.989,"text":"檢察官論壇部長也很清楚這個只有檢察官可以進入的論壇他上面直接啊就說"},{"start":611.192,"end":636.182,"text":"媒體一堆亂象然後部長這部裡面毫無作為就檢察官讓人民失去信任今天我跟你說個案上面不管柯文哲的案子不管誰的案子怎麼樣我從來不幫他們我從來不對外說柯文哲是無罪的我從來不這樣講我也不說柯文哲是有罪的但是我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩我一直在講的是這個東西"},{"start":638.171,"end":655.095,"text":"那而且外泄都是特定媒體外泄而且每個禮拜都在外泄你認為這樣對嗎?然後你現在對起訴之前部長你可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己去猜就像有記者說這是我多年的採訪經驗我就可以知道有1500的記載這怎麼可能嗎?這是托夢來的嗎?所以"},{"start":661.316,"end":684.482,"text":"講這些齁都沒有意思所以我剛剛會說部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為但是我跟部長報告就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上而且一再的如此然後你們從來不處理那北檢北檢被笑翻了啊北檢甚至被講什麼"},{"start":686.244,"end":713.131,"text":"請北檢要來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子乾脆叫北檢來開課經營了那我覺得部裡還是就雙手一攤不知道可能是任何一個環節我們也知道任何一個環節但是檢察官是指揮官啊部長反正如果這樣啦部長"},{"start":714.428,"end":714.608,"text":"我我我我"},{"start":741.929,"end":769.895,"text":"我信任我的檢察官信任怎麼部長我跟你講啦部長你現在不要回答我就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯你講這句話我說那我萬一遇到沒有智慧的法官呢或是我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊那如果萬一遇到沒有智慧的把人放了怎麼辦那你現在你又信任那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢你不能沒有作為啊"},{"start":771.015,"end":771.335,"text":"那個PVT跳一下"},{"start":796.004,"end":801.324,"text":"人家直接點名欸這不是我點名這是檢察官論壇裡面的檢察官點名的記者名字欸"},{"start":802.694,"end":812.536,"text":"那你們有沒有去問一下說這是怎麼回事我不是說這記者問題至少有盡量檢查官提了是不是大家了解一下是怎麼回事有分案有約談有澄清那案件還在偵辦中所以為什麼對那個我跟你講就是"},{"start":829.5,"end":843.559,"text":"所以我們今天有提一個臨時提案那我們是希望說以北檢當作一個示範主要是因為北檢的假黨這次他上任的時候他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則那因為"},{"start":846.789,"end":867.527,"text":"因為我跟你講我覺得最近這一段時間這幾年的媒體的這些報導其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大不只對檢方傷害其實對執政的傷害也很大因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手"},{"start":869.429,"end":885.928,"text":"那也許不是這樣子啊但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了比如說最近很多人就說你為什麼特定的三立或誰可以拿到這些資料別人拿不到然後所以哪一個被告又受害就到最後又被操作被藍營綠營或綠營的綠營或白營的綠營操作成"},{"start":890.015,"end":902.735,"text":"賴政府在政治破壞結果呢賴清德可能說我又沒有這樣下令就原來是你底下的假官為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生然後把資料給了記者那不是也害到現在的執政者"},{"start":903.601,"end":930.635,"text":"所以為什麼他那個民調啊說認為柯文哲受政治迫害那比例一直往上爬其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣可是後來看到你這個新聞一直出來一直出來層層一直出現嘛那他們也開始懷疑說是不是真的這樣所以我必須講這段不公開的問題我們已經談論非常多年了那似乎沒有效果而且是越來越嚴重"},{"start":932.421,"end":957.324,"text":"那前幾天有一個說謝國良200那我的意思只是這樣啊我覺得他們有沒有犯罪我不知道但是這個人200這個數字如果將來證明是真的有的話那我覺得那你檢方又在幹什麼了為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩那這在幹嘛部長你如果不當一回事那我也無能為力"},{"start":959.363,"end":986.837,"text":"我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項的作為包括法制面的我們也希望司法院也能夠支持我想司法院也會但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下現有的分局在做筆錄的時候我知道他就坐在位置上面做有時候記者進進出出或泡茶區盡量能夠隔開"},{"start":988.158,"end":988.178,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1009.048,"end":1027.047,"text":"我們現在全國一共有1496間尊勤室所有分級都有那判所就不一定有大的判所有小的判所沒有所以針對判所的環境我們就特別立定判所在遵辦刑案期間我們是要求他記者不能進到我們判所裡面去"},{"start":1028.088,"end":1056.442,"text":"好 謝謝副部長部長那這樣啦再麻煩你偵查不公開其實是大家的共識那麻煩一定要落實不要被拿來永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作那我就說我以前我很尊重自己的工作我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理這種偵辦政治類的案件偵論的案件的時候是這樣子的把資料餵給特定媒體"},{"start":1057.452,"end":1076.958,"text":"好那部長如果我們再這樣下去的話檢方的信任度越來越低那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法但我都不希望這樣子我完全不希望我們會走到這一天好不好那這部分再麻煩部長部長我們剛剛的臨時提案要麻煩部長能夠做到好謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1079,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時11分）麻煩請法務部長還有警政署副署長。"],["主席：好，有請法務部長、警政署副署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我還是一樣要跟你提偵查不公開，其實我算是違反偵查不公開的被害人，剛剛莊瑞雄委員還虧辦媽媽嘴命案那時候的事情！針對這個案子，連被害人都出來講當初承辦那個案子時違反偵查不公開的是另外一位檢察官，而我是進去救援、幫他們把案子查清楚的檢察官，但連這樣風馬牛不相及的事件在幾年後，都會被特定人士拿來作文章，說我就是違反偵查不公開的那位承辦檢察官，所以就違反偵查不公開來說，我變成另類的被害人，對不對？當年監察院跟法務部都有下去調查那一位檢察官，而我從來沒有被調查過，因為跟我根本沒關，但就是會有政客們拿來做這樣的宣傳。所以，你說這個情況對人沒有傷害嗎？對被告沒有傷害嗎？我這邊要跟你講：一定有啦！連我只是當年另一個承辦檢察官，都會覺得不是那麼愉快！所以這個情況對人權的傷害其實是很大的。","我再提剛剛沈伯洋委員提到的鄭文燦案，再跟部長報告一件事情：我從辦鄭文燦案到離開檢方、到了市府、又到了立法院，遇過太多人，尤其綠營，一直叫我出來爆料、叫我出來講那一段時間接監聽到的內容，包括鄭先生的，也包括其他政治人物的八卦。但不管要給我什麼樣的好處或什麼條件，我從來沒有答應，也一次都沒有講！過去那麼多年我從來沒有提，因為我尊重我以前那份工作。即使到今天鄭文燦因為另案被偵辦，有部分跟我以前查辦的有關，但記者來問我時，我也一定說只要我以前辦的案子跟現在的案子有關，我一律不回答。這是我對於偵查不公開的尊重。所以你可以看看，這麼多年來，我都不談那個案子，即便我離開檢方、即便案子起訴後沒有偵查不公開的規範了，我還是不講。結果現在的案子不是亂講一通、到處洩密！","對於剛剛部長講的東西，我聽得不是很滿意。針對剛剛羅智強委員問的事，有其他委員說這是政治力干涉個案、個案怎麼可以放在這邊講，部長還跟吳思瑤委員應和。吳思瑤委員不懂法律就算了、我已經習慣了，但部長你懂，干涉個案跟這個有什麼關係？干涉個案應該是對於辦案人員怎麼偵查案件下手干涉，這才算！今天案子資料外洩、媒體報成那樣，立委在這邊請教為什麼可以把偵查內容洩出去，這叫什麼干涉個案？然後你還可以站在那邊跟吳思瑤委員一搭一唱？我跟你講，我真的受夠了，已經好幾次這樣，我就是要把所有的話講得清清楚楚，不喜歡在那邊說些有的沒有的。我跟你說，這跟干涉個案完全無關，不然你去找出一個理論、找個實務界的人來說說看，對於承辦的人把資料外洩出去，有人質疑怎麼可以外洩這些資料，這叫做干涉個案嗎？我跟你講，你們這樣定義，或是陪著那些政客裝傻、不懂法律，我覺得真的沒有意思，所以我剛剛才會先跟部長報告：我不認為這叫干涉個案。我現在要跟你講清楚，干涉個案絕對是像現在某些政客們手伸進去、指導檢察官辦案，那才叫干涉個案。你自己違法在先、外洩了偵查資料，被人家質疑了，這叫什麼干涉個案？","部長，如果我講錯，歡迎你反駁我，我都沒有意見。請問剛剛羅智強委員說的情形，部長，你說這叫干涉個案嗎？部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的主張就是不要含沙射影，也就是因為一些媒體報導就認為是檢察官或者偵查團隊洩漏的，這樣對偵辦案件並沒有好處。我們也呼籲任何接觸過這些案件的人都不要去講，但也不能因為檢察官有接觸就認為都是檢察官講出去的，我認為是這樣。而且講出去的是不是真的我也不清楚……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我認同你講的，但你沒回答我的問題啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為你說，那我解釋嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你剛剛回答的我認同，但是你沒有回答到我的問題。確實，我們不要打擊辦案人員的士氣，我絕對支持這句話，畢竟我就是跟他們一起、從年輕到現在的好朋友，一路這樣過來。所以我一直很堅守偵查不公開這件事情，我也說在鄭文燦案上你們就看得很清楚我是怎麼在處理的。我們先跳到後面，當年我搜索桃園市政府的時候，帶了80個調查官跟廉政官十幾路搜索，外界直到晚上才知道這件事情；我一大早去搜索，一直到晚上，中間沒有任何人知道！這才叫偵查不公開啊！我自己在檢方時代，一堆人叫我出來講；我離開檢方之後，也有一大堆人叫我出來講，我也不介入他們民進黨內的政治惡鬥，一律不講，不管跟我說什麼好處，我不講就是不講，是因為我對於檢察官這個工作的尊敬！我是這樣做事情的，所以我非常討厭違反偵查不公開，更不要講媽媽嘴案，莫名其妙，一堆人扯說我跟那個案子的洩密有關，亂講一通的人一大堆。","我要跟你講，我自己以前在帶學習司法官的時候，常常跟他們講我以前辦案時的一件事情：我開庭問被告、對他很客氣；問完之後，我讓被告回去了，因為我覺得在那件案子中，他根本沒有關係、案件是亂告。我也覺得開庭開得很順、對他很客氣。但是那個當事人走的時候回過頭來跟我講一句話，不是跟我說謝謝，而是跟我說「檢察官，你一張傳票害了我一輩子。」因為自從他收到那張貪污治罪條例案由的傳票之後，他的長官把他放到最邊邊，沒有人敢跟他說話；回到家，家裡面的老婆、小孩每天都擔心他。所以我們不要說只是一張傳票，一張傳票對當事人就會有這麼大的影響。你可以去問我以前帶過的學習司法官，每一個我都跟他講過這個例子，所以我們在辦案時要非常地小心。","我們今天不講哪個特定案子，我一直說不管哪個黨，現在國會三黨中，每一黨都中槍過、都受了違反偵查不公開的損害，然後永遠都是特定媒體，我真的很難接受怎麼會是這個樣子。而檢討小組成立這麼久以來，我也沒有聽說過哪一個檢察官或哪一個地檢署高階人士被處分，全部都沒有啊！所以這到底是怎麼回事？是記者有特權嗎？就是說他可以問到偵查的細節嗎？怎麼可以這樣呢？雖然你今天跟我們講他講的可能是以訛傳訛、可能是怎麼樣，但我現在必須跟你說，裡面很多東西、數字、表格如果將來起訴之後被我們發現是真的呢？那你是不是又有另外一套說法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你也清楚，能夠接觸到這種偵查程序內容的人很多，我們也希望每個地方都要注意啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在大家一直把目光集中在檢調廉這部分，我是覺得因為還有被告、還有證人、還有律師，甚至還有沒有規範到的對象……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你真的覺得……"],["鄭部長銘謙：或者是剛才有委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，你真的覺得被告會把對自己不利的訊息告訴媒體，讓媒體報導嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也希望……"],["吳委員宗憲：這符合人性嗎？","剛剛羅智強委員在作會議詢問的時候，也問我現在偵查主體是誰？是檢察官嘛！既然檢察官是指揮官，不管底下誰洩密，檢察官難道可以雙手一攤說「不是我，所以跟我無關」嗎？這也不對嘛！他是指揮官啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以這部分各地檢署不是都有在分案？包括桃園在內，各地檢署在辦這些社會矚目案件時，只要外界有任何質疑，我們都全部分案處理、調查嘛！對於這個案件，我們也不是叫人來了就結掉了。"],["吳委員宗憲：來！你看一下檢察官論壇。這不是我請以前的同事給我的、我不幹這種事情的！這些都是媒體上面披露的。你自己看，對於檢察官論壇，部長也很清楚，這是只有檢察官可以進入的論壇，上面直接說「媒體一堆亂象，部裡面毫無作為，使檢察官讓人民失去信任」。今天我跟你說，個案上──不管是柯文哲的案子、或是誰的案子怎麼樣，我從來不幫他們……我從來不對外說「柯文哲是無罪的」，我從來不這樣講；我也不說「柯文哲是有罪的」，但我一直質疑為什麼偵辦案件的資料一直外洩！我一直在講的是這個東西。而且外洩的都是特定媒體，還每個禮拜都在外洩，你認為這樣對嗎？然後，起訴之前，部長可以跟我拗說這些可能是記者自己猜的，就像有記者說「以我多年的採訪經驗，就可以知道有1500記載」，這怎麼可能？是託夢而來的嗎？講這些都沒有意思。所以我剛剛才會說，部長一直說沒有違反偵查不公開的行為，但是我跟部長報告，就是有違反偵查不公開的事實在現在這個社會上，而且一再地如此，你們卻從來不處理！北檢被笑翻了啊！甚至被講什麼？請北檢來開課教導大家怎麼樣經營檢察官跟媒體的關係！檢察官論壇已經虧到這個樣子，乾脆叫北檢來開課教經營了。但我覺得部裡還是雙手一攤，只說不知道、可能是任何一個環節。我們也知道可能是任何一個環節，但檢察官是指揮官啊！","部長，如果永遠偵查大公開，那乾脆把刑事訴訟法的偵查不公開修掉好了啦！不要每次都是有心的檢察官可以到處爆料，而其他、99%乖乖的檢察官、我們這種笨蛋檢察官總是堅守偵查不公開。那些到處洩漏資料給媒體的被創造成英雄，對那些守法的檢察官不是不公平嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我信任我的檢察官……"],["吳委員宗憲：信任？部長，我跟你講啦！你現在不要回答我。就像你跟我說你相信法官的智慧、絕對會裁定羈押那些死刑犯，你講了這句話之後，我就問會不會遇到沒有智慧的法官呢？我媽媽也常罵我沒有智慧啊！那萬一遇到沒有智慧的、把人放了怎麼辦？你現在說信任，那萬一遇到一個不值得信任的呢？你不能沒有作為啊！","然後，你也不能再放任那些記者一直跑到檢察官辦公室，因為檢察官常常不在座位嘛！現在都是很多檢察官在同一間辦公室，要是檢察官不在座位上，可能沒辦法顧到他的卷，你又不管，繼續放任這樣的情況？而且我跟你說，特定媒體的特定記者是誰大家都知道，但你們也無作為！人家直接點名，這不是我點名的，而是檢察官論壇裡面檢察官點名的記者名字！那你們有沒有去問一下這是怎麼回事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有調……就是對於委員關心的這些、所有報導的這些都有約談啦！我們不是毫無作為喔！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我不是在說這個記者的問題，至少已經有檢察官提了，那是不是要了解一下怎麼回事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有分案、有約談，有澄清，案件還在偵辦中，所以為什麼對……"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我跟你講，我們今天有提一個臨時提案，我們是希望以北檢當作一個示範，主要是因為北檢的檢察長這次上任的時候，他有說他要遵守偵查不公開的原則，因為我覺得最近這一段時間，這幾年媒體的這些報導，其實對檢方的社會信任度傷害很大；不只對檢方傷害，其實對執政者傷害也很大！因為外面很多人說外洩這些就是執政者在政治攻擊他的敵手，那也許不是這樣子啊，但是執政者是不是就背了一個黑鍋了。譬如說，最近很多人就說，為什麼三立或是誰可以拿到這些資料，別人拿不到，所以哪一個被告又受害，結果到最後又被操作，被藍營的立委或白營的立委操作成賴政府在政治迫害，結果呢？賴清德可能說，我又沒有這樣下令，結果原來是你底下的檢察官，為了跟記者兩個人在那邊共生，然後把資料給了記者，那不是也害到現在的執政者？所以為什麼認為柯文哲受政治迫害的民調比例會一直往上爬？其實很多人一開始也覺得不是這樣，可是後來看到這些新聞一直出來、一直出來，一直出現嘛！那他們也開始就懷疑是不是真的這樣？所以，我必須講，偵查不公開的問題，我們已經談論非常多年了，似乎沒有效果，而且是越來越嚴重。前幾天有一個說謝國樑200，我的意思只是這樣，我覺得他們有沒有犯罪，我不知道，但是這個人200這個數字，如果將來證明是真的有的話，我覺得那你們檢方又在幹什麼了？為什麼連這個資料全部都外洩，這在幹嘛？部長，你如果不當一回事，那我也無能為力。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就全力來落實偵查不公開的各項作為，包括法制面的，那我們也希望司法院能夠支持，謝謝委員的指導。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想司法院會啦，但警政署這邊也要麻煩一下，現有的分局在做筆錄的時候，我知道他就是坐在位子上面做，但有時候記者進進出出，或是泡茶區儘量能夠隔開以降低風險……"],["陳副署長永利：跟委員報告，刑事單位它有偵詢室，原則上我們律定是要到偵詢室裡面去的，因為偵詢室裡面才有完整的錄音、錄影設備，所以原則上我們的刑事單位是要到偵詢室裡面去。至於派出所，我們現在全國一共有1,496間偵詢室，所有分局都有，派出所就不一定有，大的派出所有，小的派出所沒有，所以針對派出所的環境，我們就特別律定，派出所在偵辦刑案期間，我們是要求記者不能進到我們派出所裡面去。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝，謝謝副署長。部長，再麻煩你，偵查不公開其實是大家的共識，麻煩一定要落實，不要被拿來……永遠這個刑案的偵查都被拿來操作。我是說我以前，我很尊重自己的工作，我很堅守偵查不公開這個事情，但是我不知道為什麼現在的人在處理、在偵辦政治類的案件，或政治人物案件的時候，是這樣子把資料餵給特定媒體。部長，如果我們再這樣下去的話，檢方的信任度越來越低，那人民又越來越相信政治力真的可以操控司法，但我都不希望這樣子，我完全不希望我們會走到這一天，好不好？這部分再麻煩部長。部長，我們剛剛的臨時提案，要麻煩部長能夠做到，謝謝部長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","現在請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","賴士葆","吳思瑤","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","林國成","林宜瑾","張啓楷","林思銘","陳冠廷"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、法務部廉政署署長、法務部調查局局長、內政部警政署署長、\n國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就「如何破除偵查大公開，以兼顧犯罪偵\n查及人權保障」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138801_00009"}}}