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212.488, \"score\": 0.64}]}, {\"start\": 213.43, \"end\": 241.947, \"text\": \"蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"蔡\", \"start\": 213.43, \"end\": 214.791, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 214.791, \"end\": 214.991, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 214.991, \"end\": 215.051, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 215.051, \"end\": 215.391, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 215.391, \"end\": 215.471, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 215.471, \"end\": 215.651, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 215.651, \"end\": 216.592, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 216.592, \"end\": 216.772, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 216.772, \"end\": 216.892, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 216.892, 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\"end\": 253.874, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 253.874, \"end\": 253.974, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 253.974, \"end\": 253.994, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 253.994, \"end\": 254.074, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 254.074, \"end\": 254.174, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 254.174, \"end\": 254.194, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 254.194, \"end\": 254.214, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 254.214, \"end\": 254.294, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 254.294, \"end\": 254.314, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 254.314, \"end\": 254.334, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 254.334, \"end\": 254.354, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 254.354, \"end\": 254.374, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 254.374, \"end\": 254.414, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 254.414, \"end\": 254.514, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 254.514, \"end\": 254.794, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 254.794, \"end\": 254.934, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 254.934, \"end\": 254.954, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 269.666, \"end\": 292.961, \"text\": \"這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 269.666, \"end\": 269.806, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 269.806, \"end\": 269.926, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 269.926, \"end\": 270.267, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 270.267, \"end\": 270.407, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 270.407, \"end\": 270.547, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 270.547, \"end\": 270.687, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, 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\"清\", \"start\": 290.379, \"end\": 290.539, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 290.539, \"end\": 290.619, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 290.619, \"end\": 290.639, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 290.639, \"end\": 290.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 290.659, \"end\": 290.759, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 290.759, \"end\": 290.859, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 290.859, \"end\": 291.019, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 291.019, \"end\": 291.9, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 291.9, \"end\": 292.02, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 292.02, \"end\": 292.12, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 292.12, \"end\": 292.24, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 659.684, \"text\": \"這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 635.365, \"end\": 635.505, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 635.505, \"end\": 635.645, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 635.645, \"end\": 635.906, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 635.906, \"end\": 636.086, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 636.086, \"end\": 636.246, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 636.246, \"end\": 636.406, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 636.406, \"end\": 636.626, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 636.626, \"end\": 636.906, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 636.906, \"end\": 637.327, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 637.327, \"end\": 637.847, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, 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\"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 765.151, \"end\": 765.351, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 765.351, \"end\": 765.931, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 765.931, \"end\": 766.352, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 766.352, \"end\": 766.532, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 766.532, \"end\": 766.672, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 766.672, \"end\": 766.792, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 766.792, \"end\": 766.972, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 766.972, \"end\": 767.092, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"輪\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 767.092, \"end\": 767.112, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 770.215, \"end\": 783.47, \"text\": \"在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", 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{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 881.951, \"end\": 882.051, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 882.051, \"end\": 882.131, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 882.131, \"end\": 882.151, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 882.151, \"end\": 882.191, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 882.191, \"end\": 882.311, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 882.311, \"end\": 882.331, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,350 --> 00:00:04,083\n請數位部的組密請數位部的組密\n\n2\n00:00:10,543 --> 00:00:14,546\n在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到20多次這也引起國際的軍事專家關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為\n\n3\n00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:58,491\n那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速\n\n4\n00:00:59,505 --> 00:01:12,775\n要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是不是要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘,那大概又經過半年的時間,目前蘇衛部對於台馬海岸列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?\n\n5\n00:01:16,268 --> 00:01:31,464\n這個跟委員回覆那也謝謝委員一直以來的關心那有關這個臺馬海蘭123號這個設施是不是要列入關鍵技術設施的這個部分我們在最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院\n\n6\n00:01:32,225 --> 00:01:57,362\n行政院也在9月23日已經核定了台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的核定去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘,當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定那尤其是試射國家安全的問題\n\n7\n00:01:58,283 --> 00:02:24,846\n那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部\n\n8\n00:02:35,051 --> 00:02:39,280\n三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官\n\n9\n00:02:41,464 --> 00:03:07,158\n我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船\n\n10\n00:03:08,806 --> 00:03:32,488\n如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜\n\n11\n00:03:33,430 --> 00:04:01,947\n蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題\n\n12\n00:04:03,647 --> 00:04:14,954\n報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航艙旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少\n\n13\n00:04:29,666 --> 00:04:52,961\n這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部\n\n14\n00:04:58,326 --> 00:05:16,216\n經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握\n\n15\n00:05:19,048 --> 00:05:45,118\n中郵台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船喔是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告\n\n16\n00:05:48,909 --> 00:06:03,686\n這是2012海洋大學報告,它其實講到台灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家也就簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船相較之下台灣的航商只有14%的船是登記在台灣\n\n17\n00:06:04,967 --> 00:06:34,364\n在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高\n\n18\n00:06:35,902 --> 00:06:37,428\n中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?\n\n19\n00:06:38,787 --> 00:07:06,242\n外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講\n\n20\n00:07:07,422 --> 00:07:32,828\n應該算公允吧?報告委員應該不能這樣講因為我督導是傳播這一塊那傳言是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說海洋局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道\n\n21\n00:07:38,394 --> 00:08:06,593\n這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個互補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對好謝謝我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供\n\n22\n00:08:08,188 --> 00:08:33,463\n一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長你覺得\n\n23\n00:08:35,988 --> 00:09:00,229\n當然會聽老公的那個JohnBoe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…JohnBoe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了\n\n24\n00:09:01,701 --> 00:09:05,283\n你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?\n\n25\n00:09:27,165 --> 00:09:45,195\n報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣\n\n26\n00:09:46,095 --> 00:10:04,635\n然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題\n\n27\n00:10:06,021 --> 00:10:33,406\n就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢\n\n28\n00:10:35,365 --> 00:10:59,684\n這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題\n\n29\n00:11:02,602 --> 00:11:30,681\n這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題\n\n30\n00:11:32,236 --> 00:11:45,702\n如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫\n\n31\n00:11:48,680 --> 00:12:02,310\n台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部\n\n32\n00:12:03,717 --> 00:12:19,662\n你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到\n\n33\n00:12:21,612 --> 00:12:47,112\n跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送\n\n34\n00:12:50,215 --> 00:13:03,470\n在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人\n\n35\n00:13:04,531 --> 00:13:29,880\n那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好\n\n36\n00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:37,164\n主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有\n\n37\n00:13:50,232 --> 00:14:14,619\n就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊\n\n38\n00:14:15,598 --> 00:14:26,515\n這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁\n\n39\n00:14:27,642 --> 00:14:42,331\n我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n350\t4083\t請數位部的組密請數位部的組密\n10543\t14546\t在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到20多次這也引起國際的軍事專家關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為\n33510\t58491\t那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速\n59505\t72775\t要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是不是要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘,那大概又經過半年的時間,目前蘇衛部對於台馬海岸列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?\n76268\t91464\t這個跟委員回覆那也謝謝委員一直以來的關心那有關這個臺馬海蘭123號這個設施是不是要列入關鍵技術設施的這個部分我們在最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院\n92225\t117362\t行政院也在9月23日已經核定了台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的核定去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘,當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定那尤其是試射國家安全的問題\n118283\t144846\t那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部\n155051\t159280\t三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官\n161464\t187158\t我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船\n188806\t212488\t如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜\n213430\t241947\t蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題\n243647\t254954\t報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航艙旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少\n269666\t292961\t這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部\n298326\t316216\t經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握\n319048\t345118\t中郵台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船喔是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告\n348909\t363686\t這是2012海洋大學報告,它其實講到台灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家也就簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船相較之下台灣的航商只有14%的船是登記在台灣\n364967\t394364\t在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高\n395902\t397428\t中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?\n398787\t426242\t外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講\n427422\t452828\t應該算公允吧?報告委員應該不能這樣講因為我督導是傳播這一塊那傳言是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說海洋局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道\n458394\t486593\t這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個互補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對好謝謝我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供\n488188\t513463\t一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長你覺得\n515988\t540229\t當然會聽老公的那個John Boe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…John Boe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了\n541701\t545283\t你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?\n567165\t585195\t報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣\n586095\t604635\t然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題\n606021\t633406\t就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢\n635365\t659684\t這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題\n662602\t690681\t這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題\n692236\t705702\t如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫\n708680\t722310\t台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部\n723717\t739662\t你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到\n741612\t767112\t跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送\n770215\t783470\t在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人\n784531\t809880\t那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好\n810900\t817164\t主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有\n830232\t854619\t就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊\n855598\t866515\t這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁\n867642\t882331\t我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝\n","txt":"請數位部的組密請數位部的組密\n在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到20多次這也引起國際的軍事專家關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為\n那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速\n要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是不是要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘,那大概又經過半年的時間,目前蘇衛部對於台馬海岸列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?\n這個跟委員回覆那也謝謝委員一直以來的關心那有關這個臺馬海蘭123號這個設施是不是要列入關鍵技術設施的這個部分我們在最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院\n行政院也在9月23日已經核定了台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的核定去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘,當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定那尤其是試射國家安全的問題\n那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部\n三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官\n我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船\n如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜\n蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題\n報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航艙旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少\n這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部\n經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握\n中郵台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船喔是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告\n這是2012海洋大學報告,它其實講到台灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家也就簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船相較之下台灣的航商只有14%的船是登記在台灣\n在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高\n中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?\n外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講\n應該算公允吧?報告委員應該不能這樣講因為我督導是傳播這一塊那傳言是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說海洋局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道\n這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個互補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對好謝謝我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供\n一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長你覺得\n當然會聽老公的那個John Boe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…John Boe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了\n你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?\n報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣\n然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題\n就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢\n這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題\n這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題\n如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫\n台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部\n你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到\n跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送\n在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人\n那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好\n主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有\n就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊\n這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁\n我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.350 --> 00:04.083\n請數位部的組密請數位部的組密\n\n00:10.543 --> 00:14.546\n在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到20多次這也引起國際的軍事專家關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為\n\n00:33.510 --> 00:58.491\n那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速\n\n00:59.505 --> 01:12.775\n要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是不是要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘,那大概又經過半年的時間,目前蘇衛部對於台馬海岸列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?\n\n01:16.268 --> 01:31.464\n這個跟委員回覆那也謝謝委員一直以來的關心那有關這個臺馬海蘭123號這個設施是不是要列入關鍵技術設施的這個部分我們在最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院\n\n01:32.225 --> 01:57.362\n行政院也在9月23日已經核定了台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的核定去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘,當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定那尤其是試射國家安全的問題\n\n01:58.283 --> 02:24.846\n那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部\n\n02:35.051 --> 02:39.280\n三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官\n\n02:41.464 --> 03:07.158\n我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船\n\n03:08.806 --> 03:32.488\n如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜\n\n03:33.430 --> 04:01.947\n蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題\n\n04:03.647 --> 04:14.954\n報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航艙旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少\n\n04:29.666 --> 04:52.961\n這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部\n\n04:58.326 --> 05:16.216\n經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握\n\n05:19.048 --> 05:45.118\n中郵台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船喔是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告\n\n05:48.909 --> 06:03.686\n這是2012海洋大學報告,它其實講到台灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家也就簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船相較之下台灣的航商只有14%的船是登記在台灣\n\n06:04.967 --> 06:34.364\n在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高\n\n06:35.902 --> 06:37.428\n中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?\n\n06:38.787 --> 07:06.242\n外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講\n\n07:07.422 --> 07:32.828\n應該算公允吧?報告委員應該不能這樣講因為我督導是傳播這一塊那傳言是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說海洋局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道\n\n07:38.394 --> 08:06.593\n這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個互補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對好謝謝我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供\n\n08:08.188 --> 08:33.463\n一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長你覺得\n\n08:35.988 --> 09:00.229\n當然會聽老公的那個JohnBoe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…JohnBoe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了\n\n09:01.701 --> 09:05.283\n你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?\n\n09:27.165 --> 09:45.195\n報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣\n\n09:46.095 --> 10:04.635\n然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題\n\n10:06.021 --> 10:33.406\n就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢\n\n10:35.365 --> 10:59.684\n這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題\n\n11:02.602 --> 11:30.681\n這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題\n\n11:32.236 --> 11:45.702\n如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫\n\n11:48.680 --> 12:02.310\n台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部\n\n12:03.717 --> 12:19.662\n你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到\n\n12:21.612 --> 12:47.112\n跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送\n\n12:50.215 --> 13:03.470\n在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人\n\n13:04.531 --> 13:29.880\n那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好\n\n13:30.900 --> 13:37.164\n主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有\n\n13:50.232 --> 14:14.619\n就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊\n\n14:15.598 --> 14:26.515\n這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁\n\n14:27.642 --> 14:42.331\n我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.35,"end":4.083,"text":"請數位部的組密請數位部的組密"},{"start":10.543,"end":14.546,"text":"在過去兩年的時間我們看到台馬之間海底的電纜被破壞的次數已經到20多次這也引起國際的軍事專家關注甚至會認為這是屬於灰色地帶的侵略行為"},{"start":33.51,"end":58.491,"text":"那所以我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長我其實就很明確的表達台灣海洋照這個我們的CI的定義它應該完全的符合這個關鍵基礎設施的定義那應該要列入那今年5月的時候我也和國安局的蔡局長那包括國土辦來要求競速"},{"start":59.505,"end":72.775,"text":"要從行政院跟國安的角度來研議,是不是要納入?」那我想請問一下主秘,那大概又經過半年的時間,目前蘇衛部對於台馬海岸列關鍵基礎設施目前有沒有進度?"},{"start":76.268,"end":91.464,"text":"這個跟委員回覆那也謝謝委員一直以來的關心那有關這個臺馬海蘭123號這個設施是不是要列入關鍵技術設施的這個部分我們在最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院"},{"start":92.225,"end":117.362,"text":"行政院也在9月23日已經核定了台馬海嵐123號已經納入關機基礎設施所以我們後續會配合著行政院的核定去要求電信事業去做好相關的安全維護計畫的修正主秘,當然我很高興終於聽到台馬海嵐的列為CEI終於有進度了這部分我們當然給予肯定那尤其是試射國家安全的問題"},{"start":118.283,"end":144.846,"text":"那當然接下來我們現在都知道六四議案中現在有幾個重要的工作包括定期評估風險的威脅然後也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效這些事情我們希望接下來在台馬海蘭的工作上面我們稅務部都可以把它給做好這部分應該是可以承諾的吧好我們會持續督導我們電信業者來做好這件事情好那接下來我想要請這個國安局、交通部跟經濟部"},{"start":155.051,"end":159.28,"text":"三個部會,三位在部裡面的長官"},{"start":161.464,"end":187.158,"text":"我其實一直以來關注不只是關鍵基礎設施那還包括了整個台灣其實在物資運輸上面那尤其是這方面上面的風險尤其台灣是個海島其實很多事情都要靠海運上個星期我其實有質詢了國安局的蔡局長那我提出這個問題說如果台灣運送貨物的貨櫃船這些商船、散裝船"},{"start":188.806,"end":212.488,"text":"如果他因為成本的考慮或管理的問題開始聘用大量的中國籍船員那當台海發生緊張狀況的時候你們覺得這些中國籍船員他會聽這些航商的還是聽中共政府的那天上禮拜"},{"start":213.43,"end":241.947,"text":"蔡局長很明確地回覆這當然是一個國安風險是要注意的問題他也承諾其實國安局會來分析這個國安的風險來示警跟相關部會來提醒這是一個危機我想先問一下交通部交通部國籍的船商的台灣船員的整體比例目前看起來可能已經低於20%了交通部有沒有掌握這個問題"},{"start":243.647,"end":254.954,"text":"報告委員,這個部分我們有掌握,是有掌握齁那國籍航艙旗下的這些國籍狀況具體來說中國與台灣船員實質的比例大概多少目前應該是這個比例可能精確數字可能回去還要再查證一下是不是事後再跟委員做回報那比例誰多誰少"},{"start":269.666,"end":292.961,"text":"這部分我目前沒辦法確定那你不是說你有掌握嗎但它跟台灣船員的比例這部分沒辦法確定所以對於中國籍船員的狀況在交通部沒有掌握是不是人數應該是有統計但是這個詳細數字必須我手邊現在沒有這個資料香港局有來嗎有我就是香港局對那為什麼香港局會不清楚這個數據我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字不好意思剛好沒帶到這個數字好我要再問經濟部"},{"start":298.326,"end":316.216,"text":"經濟部有沒有掌握你們國營事業的船運的團隊目前這個運輸團隊上面有多少中國籍船員因為你們這邊運送的很多鋼鐵、能源是由你們這邊國營事業的團隊喔你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":319.048,"end":345.118,"text":"中郵台電的部分我手邊沒有資料因為中鋼最近因為有中運的勞工事件所以大概中鋼由中運獲得大概中國的船員的數目我不知道但是國籍的台灣籍的比例是超過八成我現在講的包括FOC船喔是確定包括SOF那個兩位司長我給你看幾個數據我們現在看這2012年的報告"},{"start":348.909,"end":363.686,"text":"這是2012海洋大學報告,它其實講到台灣的航商擁有的船隻86%是登記在其他國家也就簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船相較之下台灣的航商只有14%的船是登記在台灣"},{"start":364.967,"end":394.364,"text":"在當時這2012年的時候1000噸以上的外籍FOC船上面聘用了6200多位的中國籍船員佔比是63%只有1700多位的台灣籍船員佔比只有18%這個是來自學術單位的報告所以我也想問航港局副局長副局長這是12年前的數據你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高"},{"start":395.902,"end":397.428,"text":"中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高?"},{"start":398.787,"end":426.242,"text":"外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點因為目前大概登記國籍我們國籍船大概100艘左右那以最近這個購船的比例有增加那中國籍船員有沒有提高這部分還是要跟委員抱歉我這個還要回去再找一下但是船部分我理解是有外籍船比例所以看起來現在我們航港局對中國籍船員的狀況看起來是非常未知沒有掌握的我這樣講"},{"start":427.422,"end":452.828,"text":"應該算公允吧?報告委員應該不能這樣講因為我督導是傳播這一塊那傳言是另外一副局長督導所以這部分我可能要回去查一下政策跟委員會部長我們今天在國防外交委員會我們談的當然是國安的問題嘛國安局其實也就說了這當然是個國安的問題嘛但我不知道為什麼你們被問到這個問題我說海洋局被問到這個問題的時候所有事情都不知道"},{"start":458.394,"end":486.593,"text":"這個就是回去之後我是不是可以再把相關數據整理出來再跟委員做個互補好不好那個副局長我跟你說我們之前有來跟在跟航港局要這些相關的資料也就是我們的這個國籍的船商這個關於各個國籍的這個船員人數的資料之前航港局是不願意提供給我們的現在你可以承諾會提供了對不對好謝謝我們回去整理一下再提供給委員什麼時候可以提供"},{"start":488.188,"end":513.463,"text":"一週內好不好一週內可以提供給我們辦公室是是好我一樣要問齁其實幾位我一樣在問同樣的問題你們覺得這些中國籍的船員當台海如果有發生緊張的時候他們會聽老共的還是聽我們台灣台灣的船商指揮副局長你覺得"},{"start":515.988,"end":540.229,"text":"當然會聽老公的那個John Boe你覺得會聽誰的?以船舶的專業來講的話應該是要聽船長的指揮但是如果船長是中國籍的船員的話那可能會有委員所擔心的這個…John Boe我跟你說甚至現在有很多船長都是中國籍的船長了船副也是中國籍的船副了"},{"start":541.701,"end":545.283,"text":"你對於國安局認為這是一個國安風險,你們的看法是什麼?我剛跟委員報告說,如果是該委員所提出的確會有人擔心這個國安的風險那你們打算怎麼做?你們打算怎麼做啊?你們是主管的業務單位啊?"},{"start":567.165,"end":585.195,"text":"報告委員這部分我想一方面我們應該要積極推動這個船舶能夠回籍因為我們對國籍的船舶對船長跟船員的比例的要求會比較高所以這部分我們會積極推動就是船舶能夠回籍出射在台灣"},{"start":586.095,"end":604.635,"text":"然後呢?船舶注射在台灣,船員可能還是有中國的船員啊?但是因為如果是國籍船的話,船長必須,船長及重要的船上的幹部必須要是台灣籍那所以這部分的話,可以增強我們對船舶這部分的一個控制長榮君,你們一直不敢面對一個問題"},{"start":606.021,"end":633.406,"text":"就是現在我們在這些台灣船商的船上不管是國籍船或FOC船中國籍船就是越來越多我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸的問題的時候我們到底是不是更明確地跟這些船商表達不該用這麼多的中國籍船員我到目前為止沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度副局長你覺得呢"},{"start":635.365,"end":659.684,"text":"這部分我們可以回去再跟我們國際航商再來做溝通那這部分也會來要求但是也要這邊很務實要跟委員報告因為這個船如果是註冊在外籍的話那基本上我們對這個外籍船控制當然是沒有辦法那麼高那我們可以來協調就是我們的國際航商在這部分船員的聘請上面應該要注重該委員所提示這個問題"},{"start":662.602,"end":690.681,"text":"這個交通部我覺得我們還是必須面對這個問題我們當然都知道接下來很多國際行商他大部分的船其實都是FOC船可是我也不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何可以去管理或要求的空間事實上也是有的只是看交通部做或不做但我這邊想要說的事情是我今天沒有在討論船員的勞動問題我現在跟你們討論的事情是國安問題"},{"start":692.236,"end":705.702,"text":"如果這是一個明確的國安風險就像剛才大家都承認了也都認了說如果到時候台海出現緊張的話我們真的沒有把握這些中國籍船員會幫"},{"start":708.68,"end":722.31,"text":"台灣所需要的海運跟物資來去做任務的運送對不對都很清楚你們剛才都說了那在這個狀況之下我們要拿出什麼對策嗎我們要具體的對策嗎不是只是說我會跟他們溝通嗎包括經濟部"},{"start":723.717,"end":739.662,"text":"你們下面的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼?大家的標準是什麼?具體的做法是什麼?坦白說我現在還沒有聽到不管是交通部也好經濟部也好有明確的目標跟明確的策略跟行動我目前沒聽到"},{"start":741.612,"end":767.112,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前為了天然氣的運送的問題我們現在跟交通部在合作啦就是我們會去交通部會去修改一個大宗物資因為大部分的我們大概都大宗物資的運送辦法那會希望會要求說我們的部分如果能夠取得不管是油啦或是天然氣如果在對方買方允許的狀況下面我們會把部分就交給國輪來運送"},{"start":770.215,"end":783.47,"text":"在給國輪運送的時候經濟部的態度就是我們跟交通部表示說我們至少要求幾個條件第一個你就是要國籍輪第二個你的國籍輪上面的重要的船員就一定是要是國籍的人"},{"start":784.531,"end":809.88,"text":"那另外還就是為了要運送一些安全所以我們現在請交通部、航港局在協助去訂一個這個就是這個大宗物資的運送的安全的一個辦法那這是我們經濟部現在在跟交通部在合作的那這個大概就是因為交通部現在還在進行這個相關的一些法律的程序所以我們的態度大概是這個樣子時間太到了齁但是我覺得這個問題其實現在拿出來討論從上個禮拜拿出來討論當然我現在看到交通部也好"},{"start":810.9,"end":817.164,"text":"主要就是因為考慮說一年大概有300多艘的LNG船到台灣來載運LNG可是並沒有國輪那這個部分的確就會有"},{"start":830.232,"end":854.619,"text":"就為委員所提到的這個國安風險所以我們這部分也在跟經部協調說是不是中油台電這未來會有一些長期的合約可以讓我們國能航廂來那國能航廂也才能夠投資在LNG船隊跟船員的培訓這部分我們正在進行當中部長你剛才講這些剛剛其實經部都講完了但是除了LNG以外我們還有很多重要的物資的運送啊"},{"start":855.598,"end":866.515,"text":"這些事是交通部在主管的,可能不一定是國營企業啊。」這個大眾物資的運送辦法裡面我們就把包括這些重要的民生物資,就是像油、煤……部長我時間快到了齁"},{"start":867.642,"end":882.331,"text":"我第一個我是想要請你們提供給我就之前你們一直不願意給我的這個盤點台灣的航商國運世界下面船員國籍的人數這部分請在一週內提供給我們那第二個是我也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會來作為後續這個議題討論的依據可以嗎這應該沒有問題吧好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":999,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時21分）謝謝主席。我先請教數位部的主秘。"],["主席：請數位部主秘。"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：主秘，我在過去兩年的時間裡面，看到台馬之間的海底電纜被破壞的次數已經有二十多次，這當然也非常引起國際軍事專家的關注，甚至認為這其實就是屬於灰色地帶的一些侵略行為。我從去年3月開始質詢陳建仁院長，就很明確的表達台馬海纜，照我們CI的定義，它應該完全符合關鍵基礎設施的定義，應該要列入。今年5月的時候，我也要求國安局的蔡局長，包括國土辦，儘速從行政院跟國安的角度來研議是不是要納入。又經過半年的時間，我想請問一下主秘，數位部對於台馬海纜列關鍵基礎設施，目前有沒有進度？"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：謝謝委員一直以來的關心，有關台馬海纜123號是不是要列入關鍵基礎設施的這個部分，我們最近也把相關的檢討報告送行政院，行政院在9月23日已經核定，將台馬海纜123號納入關鍵基礎設施。所以我們後續會配合行政院的核定，要求電信事業做好相關安全維護計畫的修正。"],["洪委員申翰：本席很高興聽到台馬海纜列為CI終於有進度了，這部分我們當然給予肯定，尤其這事涉國家安全的問題。我們也都知道列入CI之後有幾個重要工作，包括定期評估風險的威脅，也包括撰寫計畫書跟定期檢核執行的成效等等這些事情，我們希望數位部接下來在台馬海纜的工作上面，都可以把它做好。這部分應該是可以承諾的吧？"],["胡主任秘書貝蒂：我們會持續督導電信業者做好這件事情。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來，我想請教國安局、交通部跟經濟部。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：三位在部裡面的長官，其實一直以來，本席關注的不只是關鍵基礎設施，還包括整個臺灣在物資運輸上面，尤其是這方面的風險。臺灣是個海島，很多事情都要靠海運。上個星期我曾質詢國安局蔡局長，我提出的問題是，如果臺灣運送貨物的這些貨櫃船、商船、散裝船，因為成本的考慮、管理的問題，開始大量聘用中國籍船員，當台海發生緊張狀況的時候，你們覺得這些中國籍船員，會聽這些航商的，還是聽中共政府的？上禮拜蔡明彥局長很明確地回復本席，這當然是一個國安風險，是要注意的問題，他也承諾國安局會分析這個國安風險，也會向相關部會示警，提醒大家這是一個危機。本席想先問一下交通部，國籍船商的臺灣船員整體比例，目前看起來可能已經低於20%，交通部有沒有掌握這個問題？"],["陳副局長賓權：這個部分我們有掌握。"],["洪委員申翰：國籍航商旗下的船員國籍狀況，具體來說，中國與臺灣船員的比例大概是多少？"],["陳副局長賓權：精確的數字可能還要再回去查證一下，是不是事後再向委員回復？"],["洪委員申翰：比例是誰多、誰少？"],["陳副局長賓權：這部分我目前沒辦法確定。"],["洪委員申翰：你不是說有掌握嗎？"],["陳副局長賓權：但是他們和臺灣船員的比例，這部分沒辦法確定。"],["洪委員申翰：所以對中國籍船員的狀況，交通部並沒有掌握，是不是？"],["陳副局長賓權：人數應該是有統計，但是詳細的數字，現在我手邊沒有這個資料。"],["洪委員申翰：航港局有來嗎？"],["陳副局長賓權：有，我就是航港局的。"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼航港局不清楚這個數據？"],["陳副局長賓權：我們剛好沒有帶到這個數字，不好意思。"],["洪委員申翰：剛好沒帶到這個數字？好，本席再問經濟部。經濟部有沒有掌握國營事業的船運團隊？目前運輸船隊有多少中國籍船員？因為你們需要運送很多鋼鐵、能源，這是由國營事業的船隊負責。你們有沒有掌握？"],["胡司長文中：中油、臺電的部分，我手邊沒有資料。因為中鋼最近有中運的勞工事件，我不知道中運的中國籍船員數目，但是臺灣籍的比例超過八成。"],["洪委員申翰：包括FOC船喔！"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["洪委員申翰：兩位司長，本席給你們看幾個數據，我們先看2012年的報告，這是2012年海洋大學的報告。它提到臺灣航商擁有的船隻，86%是登記在其他國家，簡單來說就是所謂的FOC船，相較之下，臺灣航商只有14%的船是登記在臺灣。在當時，就是2012年的時候，1,000噸以上的外籍FOC船，聘用六千兩百多位中國籍船員，占比是63%，只有一千七百多位臺灣籍船員，占比只有18%，這是來自學術單位的報告。","所以本席也想問航港局副局長，這是12年前的數據喔！你覺得過去10年外籍船的比例有沒有提高？中國籍的船員比例有沒有提高？"],["陳副局長賓權：外籍船的比例應該是有比較高一點。目前登記的國籍船大概是100艘左右，最近購船的比例有增加……"],["洪委員申翰：中國籍船員有沒有提高？"],["陳副局長賓權：這部分要向委員致歉，我們還要回去找一下。但是船的部分，就我的理解，外籍船的比例是這樣。"],["洪委員申翰：所以看起來，現在航港局對中國籍船員的狀況是未知的、沒有掌握，本席這樣說應該算公允吧？"],["陳副局長賓權：應該不能這樣說。因為我督導的是船舶這一塊，船員是另外一位副局長督導，所以這部分我可能要回去查一下再向委員回報。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，我們今天在國防外交委員會，談的當然是國安問題，其實國安局也說了，這當然是一個國安問題，但本席不知道為什麼航港局被問到這個問題的時候，卻是所有的事情都不知道。"],["陳副局長賓權：回去之後，我把相關數據整理出來再向委員回復，好不好？"],["洪委員申翰：好。副局長，本席告訴你，我們之前有向航港局要相關資料，就是我們的國籍船商所屬各個國籍的船員人數資料，之前航港局不願意提供給我們，現在你承諾會提供，對不對？"],["陳副局長賓權：是，我們回去整理一下再提供給委員。"],["洪委員申翰：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳副局長賓權：一週內好不好？因為我們還要再會……"],["洪委員申翰：一週內可以提供給我們辦公室？"],["陳副局長賓權：是。"],["洪委員申翰：好。本席要問各位同樣的問題，你們覺得這些中國籍的船員，當臺海緊張的時候，他們會聽老共的？還是聽臺灣船商的指揮？副局長，你覺得？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然會聽老共的。"],["洪委員申翰：交通部的代表，你們覺得會聽誰的？"],["陳副局長賓權：以船舶專業來說的話，應該是要聽船長的指揮，但如果船長是中國籍船員的話，可能會有委員擔心的這個問題。"],["洪委員申翰：本席告訴你，現在有很多都是中國籍的船長，船副也是中國籍。所以請教陳副局長，國安局認為這是一個國安風險，你們的看法是什麼？"],["陳副局長賓權：我剛才有向委員報告，如果是如剛才委員所說的，的確會有委員擔心的國安風險。"],["洪委員申翰：你們打算怎麼做？因為你們是主管的業務單位。"],["陳副局長賓權：關於這部分，一方面我們應該要積極推動船舶回籍，因為我們對國籍船舶的船長和船員比例要求比較高。所以這部分我們會積極推動，希望船舶能夠回籍，在臺灣註冊。"],["洪委員申翰：然後呢？船舶註冊在臺灣，但可能還是有中國籍的船員啊！"],["陳副局長賓權：但如果是國籍船的話，船長及重要的船上幹部必須是臺灣籍，可以增強我們對船舶的控制。"],["洪委員申翰：航港局一直不敢面對一個問題，就是現在在這些臺灣船商的船上，不管是國籍船或FOC船，中國籍船員就是越來越多。我們今天在討論國安情境下的運輸問題時，是不是應該更明確的向這些船商表達，不該用這麼多中國籍船員？到目前為止，本席沒有聽到航港局給一個明確的態度。副局長，你覺得呢？"],["陳副局長賓權：我們可以回去再和國籍航商溝通，這部分也會要求。但是也要很務實的向委員報告，如果船註冊為外國籍的話，基本上我們對這個外籍船的控制當然沒辦法那麼高。我們可以協調國籍航商在船員的聘請上面，應該要注重剛剛委員提示的這個問題。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，本席覺得我們必須面對這個問題。我們當然知道很多國籍航商的船都是FOC船啦！可是本席不相信我們對FOC船就沒有任何管理或要求的空間，事實上也是有的，只是看交通部做或不做。本席想要說的是，今天並不是在討論船員的勞動問題，是和你們討論國安問題，如果這是一個明確的國安風險，剛才大家也承認了，如果到時候臺海出現緊張情勢的話，我們真的沒有把握，這些中國籍船員會幫臺灣運送需要的海運物資，對不對？大家都很清楚，你們剛才都說了。","在這個狀況之下，我們要拿出對策嘛！我們要有具體的對策，而不是只說會和他們溝通。包括經濟部，你們的國營事業對這部分的看法是什麼？大家的標準是什麼？具體做法是什麼？坦白說，本席現在還沒有聽到，不管是交通部也好，經濟部也好，有明確的目標和明確的策略、行動。"],["胡司長文中：我們之前為了天然氣的運送問題，現在也在和交通部合作，交通部會去修改大宗物資運送辦法，因為我們大部分都是大宗物資。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["胡司長文中：如果能夠取得同意，不管是油或者天然氣，在對方、買方允許的狀況下，我們會把部分物資交給國輪運送。在給國輪運送的時候，經濟部的態度很明確，我們也向交通部表示，至少要求幾個條件，第一個，就是要國籍輪，第二個，國籍輪上面的重要船員一定是本國籍的人。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["胡司長文中：另外，為了維護運送安全，所以我們現在請交通部航港局協助訂定大宗物資運送辦法，這是經濟部現在和交通部在合作的，交通部現在還在進行相關的法律程序，我們的態度大概是這個樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：本席的質詢時間快到了。本席覺得這個問題從上個禮拜拿出來討論到現在，包括交通部也好，看起來並沒有明確的行動。"],["陳副局長賓權：我是不是可以再補充一下？剛才說到LNG國貨國運這個部分，其實也是我們正在和經濟部合作的一個專案，主要是考慮到一年大概有三百多艘LNG船到臺灣載運LNG，可其中並沒有國輪，這個部分的確就會有委員所提到的國安風險。所以我們也在和經濟部協調，中油、臺電未來一些長期合約可以讓國輪航商承擔，這樣國輪航商才能夠投資在LNG船隊和船員培訓，這部分我們正在進行當中。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，你現在說的這些，其實剛剛經濟部都說完了。除了LNG以外，我們還有很多重要的物資運送，這些是交通部主管的，不一定是國營企業。"],["陳副局長賓權：大宗物資的運送辦法裡面，就包括這些重要的民生物資，像油、煤等等都是。"],["洪委員申翰：副局長，本席的發言時間快到了，第一個，本席要請你們提供之前一直不願意給的，盤點臺灣航商及國營事業的船員國籍及人數，這部分請在一週內提供給我們。第二個，本席也要請你們提供過去12年的數據給委員會，做為後續討論這個議題的依據，可以嗎？應該沒有問題吧？"],["陳副局長賓權：好。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。請航港局一週內把資料整理好，提供洪申翰委員的辦公室。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-7","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","馬文君","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","黃國昌","張啓楷","王鴻薇","洪申翰","羅智強","邱志偉","洪孟楷","賴士葆","張嘉郡"],"page_start":271,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長、國家安全局、法務部調查局、海洋委員會海巡署、內政部、經濟部、農業部、\n國家發展委員會、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、數位發展部、衛生福利部報告「針對解放軍\n未來可能透過『灰色地帶戰術』和『蟒蛇戰略』對台灣封鎖之國安危機及如何確保關鍵物資自\n主、關鍵產業、基礎設施、能源自主、民生物資、糧食安全及醫療物資供應無虞之應處作為」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138701_00004"}}}