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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 580.222, \"end\": 580.242, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 587.594, \"end\": 602.276, \"text\": \"我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 587.594, \"end\": 588.656, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 588.656, \"end\": 589.096, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 589.096, \"end\": 589.817, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 589.817, \"end\": 590.038, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 590.038, \"end\": 590.378, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"彌\"}, {\"word\": \"陀\", \"start\": 590.378, \"end\": 590.619, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 590.619, \"end\": 590.759, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 590.759, \"end\": 590.919, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 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\"跟\", \"start\": 601.475, \"end\": 601.615, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 601.615, \"end\": 601.895, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 601.895, \"end\": 601.975, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 601.975, \"end\": 601.995, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 601.995, \"end\": 602.096, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 602.096, \"end\": 602.256, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 602.256, \"end\": 602.276, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"關\"}]}, {\"start\": 603.737, \"end\": 622.628, \"text\": \"報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 603.737, \"end\": 603.877, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 603.877, \"end\": 604.858, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 604.858, \"end\": 605.218, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"伊\", \"start\": 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00:02:01,035\n你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道\n\n6\n00:02:03,339 --> 00:02:11,161\n天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁\n\n7\n00:02:28,686 --> 00:02:44,252\n包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子\n\n8\n00:02:45,632 --> 00:03:04,238\n那食藥署最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能然後發生食安事件的時候你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面啊你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品\n\n9\n00:03:14,881 --> 00:03:42,611\n要髒要慘但我們看到你這一篇專欄上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過\n\n10\n00:03:44,622 --> 00:03:59,102\n沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是,我們自將期許你,希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上,\n\n11\n00:04:00,163 --> 00:04:21,465\n而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素餐的組長沒有改革沒有換人\n\n12\n00:04:23,067 --> 00:04:23,287\n組長你回答啊\n\n13\n00:04:54,761 --> 00:05:22,537\n報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎如果1月退休我們沒有啦他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天\n\n14\n00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:40,655\n阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認為他要等退休我告訴你我今天重點不在那裡我問一下新興毒品好了阿賴\n\n15\n00:05:45,119 --> 00:06:01,789\n我現在要問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治匯報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊\n\n16\n00:06:06,933 --> 00:06:21,847\n這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha-PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長\n\n17\n00:06:28,002 --> 00:06:39,526\n高檢署去年11月在氣毒督導小組匯報成立《毒品先驅原料預警平台》由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質\n\n18\n00:06:41,147 --> 00:06:54,717\n毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平台中進行預警有效列管依託明指、美託明指、易柄、帕指等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?\n\n19\n00:07:04,224 --> 00:07:07,047\n我不是在問你這個我說它是作為什麼使用的這個本來是做什麼的原料\n\n20\n00:07:23,121 --> 00:07:26,103\n有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為\n\n21\n00:07:49,642 --> 00:07:53,804\n製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?\n\n22\n00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:22,223\n跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?\n\n23\n00:08:37,513 --> 00:08:44,321\n他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?\n\n24\n00:09:00,065 --> 00:09:17,003\n30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是AlphaPIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。\n\n25\n00:09:18,865 --> 00:09:40,242\n然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好\n\n26\n00:09:47,594 --> 00:10:02,276\n我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關\n\n27\n00:10:03,737 --> 00:10:22,628\n報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥\n\n28\n00:10:23,608 --> 00:10:40,435\n現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎\n\n29\n00:10:43,770 --> 00:11:04,379\n所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已\n\n30\n00:11:06,738 --> 00:11:09,703\n昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊\n\n31\n00:11:22,802 --> 00:11:31,925\n數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1\n\n32\n00:11:50,712 --> 00:12:12,498\n含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查\n\n33\n00:12:19,094 --> 00:12:25,318\n我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨\n\n34\n00:12:35,902 --> 00:13:00,249\n對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連\n\n35\n00:13:04,531 --> 00:13:31,085\n連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大\n\n36\n00:13:33,246 --> 00:13:36,207\n你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?\n\n37\n00:13:57,871 --> 00:13:58,051\n就是說這個\n\n38\n00:14:26,092 --> 00:14:32,460\n部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?\n\n39\n00:14:44,529 --> 00:14:56,964\n報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答\n\n40\n00:14:59,031 --> 00:15:04,696\n等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究\n\n41\n00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:33,160\n她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家\n\n42\n00:15:37,183 --> 00:15:59,154\n辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?\n\n43\n00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:33,994\n報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來檢驗能量檢驗能量是不是跟你有關食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要檢驗標準是不是你們\n\n44\n00:16:35,322 --> 00:16:39,047\n對嘛你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為\n\n45\n00:16:50,282 --> 00:16:59,528\n新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得\n\n46\n00:17:08,933 --> 00:17:37,320\n誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?\n\n47\n00:17:39,278 --> 00:18:06,131\n報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以\n\n48\n00:18:06,851 --> 00:18:26,322\n連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品\n\n49\n00:18:27,162 --> 00:18:49,992\n然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置\n\n50\n00:18:50,692 --> 00:19:09,034\n但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費\n\n51\n00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:19,220\n那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境\n\n52\n00:19:27,063 --> 00:19:46,309\n先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面\n\n53\n00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:49,351\n對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有\n\n54\n00:20:16,903 --> 00:20:26,406\n謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?\n\n55\n00:20:46,459 --> 00:20:46,579\n林淑芬議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5999\t10361\t主席各位大家午安是請我們這個邱部長部長最近一次的行政院的毒品防治會報你剛才也承認說你沒有出席嗎那天是這個次長代理出席了最近一次是6月17號那下一次你會出席嗎\n34713\t48425\t只要行程不衝突的話我會以這個為最優先那我們今天講說當天6月的那一次報告主責機關是食藥署那我們再問一下署長署長你對於毒品鑑驗的業務應該已經熟悉上手了吧你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎你知道嗎\n61442\t61782\t主席主席主席\n88578\t102385\t啊?你不知道?不清楚?無法回答?報告委員,那個是我們在新世代反毒的那個綱領下面的那我問你到底是不是主責,責成就是你要去負責?\n104232\t121035\t你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道\n123339\t131161\t天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁\n148686\t164252\t包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子\n165632\t184238\t那食藥署最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能然後發生食安事件的時候你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面啊你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品\n194881\t222611\t要髒要慘但我們看到你這一篇專欄上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過\n224622\t239102\t沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是,我們自將期許你,希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上,\n240163\t261465\t而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素餐的組長沒有改革沒有換人\n263067\t263287\t組長你回答啊\n294761\t322537\t報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎如果1月退休我們沒有啦他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天\n323680\t340655\t阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認為他要等退休我告訴你我今天重點不在那裡我問一下新興毒品好了阿賴\n345119\t361789\t我現在要問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治匯報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊\n366933\t381847\t這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha-PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長\n388002\t399526\t高檢署去年11月在氣毒督導小組匯報成立《毒品先驅原料預警平台》由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質\n401147\t414717\t毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平台中進行預警有效列管依託明指、美託明指、易柄、帕指等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?\n424224\t427047\t我不是在問你這個 我說它是作為什麼使用的 這個本來是做什麼的原料\n443121\t446103\t有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為\n469642\t473804\t製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?\n489380\t502223\t跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?\n517513\t524321\t他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?\n540065\t557003\t30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是Alpha PIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。\n558865\t580242\t然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好\n587594\t602276\t我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關\n603737\t622628\t報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥\n623608\t640435\t現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎\n643770\t664379\t所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已\n666738\t669703\t昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊\n682802\t691925\t數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1\n710712\t732498\t含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查\n739094\t745318\t我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨\n755902\t780249\t對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連\n784531\t811085\t連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大\n813246\t816207\t你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?\n837871\t838051\t就是說這個\n866092\t872460\t部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?\n884529\t896964\t報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答\n899031\t904696\t等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究\n920310\t933160\t她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家\n937183\t959154\t辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?\n966550\t993994\t報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來 我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來 檢驗能量 檢驗能量是不是跟你有關 食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們 我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要 檢驗標準是不是你們\n995322\t999047\t對嘛 你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗 鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為\n1010282\t1019528\t新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得\n1028933\t1057320\t誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?\n1059278\t1086131\t報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以\n1086851\t1106322\t連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品\n1107162\t1129992\t然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置\n1130692\t1149034\t但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費\n1150396\t1159220\t那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境\n1167063\t1186309\t先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面\n1188050\t1189351\t對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有\n1216903\t1226406\t謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?\n1246459\t1246579\t林淑芬議員\n","txt":"主席各位大家午安是請我們這個邱部長部長最近一次的行政院的毒品防治會報你剛才也承認說你沒有出席嗎那天是這個次長代理出席了最近一次是6月17號那下一次你會出席嗎\n只要行程不衝突的話我會以這個為最優先那我們今天講說當天6月的那一次報告主責機關是食藥署那我們再問一下署長署長你對於毒品鑑驗的業務應該已經熟悉上手了吧你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎你知道嗎\n主席主席主席\n啊?你不知道?不清楚?無法回答?報告委員,那個是我們在新世代反毒的那個綱領下面的那我問你到底是不是主責,責成就是你要去負責?\n你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道\n天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁\n包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子\n那食藥署最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能然後發生食安事件的時候你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面啊你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品\n要髒要慘但我們看到你這一篇專欄上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過\n沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是,我們自將期許你,希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上,\n而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素餐的組長沒有改革沒有換人\n組長你回答啊\n報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎如果1月退休我們沒有啦他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天\n阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認為他要等退休我告訴你我今天重點不在那裡我問一下新興毒品好了阿賴\n我現在要問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治匯報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊\n這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha-PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長\n高檢署去年11月在氣毒督導小組匯報成立《毒品先驅原料預警平台》由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質\n毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平台中進行預警有效列管依託明指、美託明指、易柄、帕指等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?\n我不是在問你這個 我說它是作為什麼使用的 這個本來是做什麼的原料\n有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為\n製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?\n跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?\n他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?\n30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是Alpha PIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。\n然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好\n我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關\n報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥\n現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎\n所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已\n昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊\n數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1\n含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查\n我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨\n對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連\n連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大\n你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?\n就是說這個\n部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?\n報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答\n等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究\n她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家\n辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?\n報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來 我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來 檢驗能量 檢驗能量是不是跟你有關 食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們 我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要 檢驗標準是不是你們\n對嘛 你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗 鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為\n新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得\n誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?\n報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以\n連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品\n然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置\n但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費\n那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境\n先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面\n對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有\n謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?\n林淑芬議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.999 --> 00:10.361\n主席各位大家午安是請我們這個邱部長部長最近一次的行政院的毒品防治會報你剛才也承認說你沒有出席嗎那天是這個次長代理出席了最近一次是6月17號那下一次你會出席嗎\n\n00:34.713 --> 00:48.425\n只要行程不衝突的話我會以這個為最優先那我們今天講說當天6月的那一次報告主責機關是食藥署那我們再問一下署長署長你對於毒品鑑驗的業務應該已經熟悉上手了吧你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎你知道嗎\n\n01:01.442 --> 01:01.782\n主席主席主席\n\n01:28.578 --> 01:42.385\n啊?你不知道?不清楚?無法回答?報告委員,那個是我們在新世代反毒的那個綱領下面的那我問你到底是不是主責,責成就是你要去負責?\n\n01:44.232 --> 02:01.035\n你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道\n\n02:03.339 --> 02:11.161\n天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁\n\n02:28.686 --> 02:44.252\n包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子\n\n02:45.632 --> 03:04.238\n那食藥署最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能然後發生食安事件的時候你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面啊你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品\n\n03:14.881 --> 03:42.611\n要髒要慘但我們看到你這一篇專欄上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過\n\n03:44.622 --> 03:59.102\n沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是,我們自將期許你,希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上,\n\n04:00.163 --> 04:21.465\n而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素餐的組長沒有改革沒有換人\n\n04:23.067 --> 04:23.287\n組長你回答啊\n\n04:54.761 --> 05:22.537\n報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎如果1月退休我們沒有啦他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天\n\n05:23.680 --> 05:40.655\n阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認為他要等退休我告訴你我今天重點不在那裡我問一下新興毒品好了阿賴\n\n05:45.119 --> 06:01.789\n我現在要問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治匯報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊\n\n06:06.933 --> 06:21.847\n這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha-PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長\n\n06:28.002 --> 06:39.526\n高檢署去年11月在氣毒督導小組匯報成立《毒品先驅原料預警平台》由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質\n\n06:41.147 --> 06:54.717\n毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平台中進行預警有效列管依託明指、美託明指、易柄、帕指等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?\n\n07:04.224 --> 07:07.047\n我不是在問你這個我說它是作為什麼使用的這個本來是做什麼的原料\n\n07:23.121 --> 07:26.103\n有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為\n\n07:49.642 --> 07:53.804\n製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?\n\n08:09.380 --> 08:22.223\n跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?\n\n08:37.513 --> 08:44.321\n他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?\n\n09:00.065 --> 09:17.003\n30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是AlphaPIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。\n\n09:18.865 --> 09:40.242\n然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好\n\n09:47.594 --> 10:02.276\n我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關\n\n10:03.737 --> 10:22.628\n報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥\n\n10:23.608 --> 10:40.435\n現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎\n\n10:43.770 --> 11:04.379\n所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已\n\n11:06.738 --> 11:09.703\n昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊\n\n11:22.802 --> 11:31.925\n數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1\n\n11:50.712 --> 12:12.498\n含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查\n\n12:19.094 --> 12:25.318\n我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨\n\n12:35.902 --> 13:00.249\n對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連\n\n13:04.531 --> 13:31.085\n連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大\n\n13:33.246 --> 13:36.207\n你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?\n\n13:57.871 --> 13:58.051\n就是說這個\n\n14:26.092 --> 14:32.460\n部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?\n\n14:44.529 --> 14:56.964\n報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答\n\n14:59.031 --> 15:04.696\n等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究\n\n15:20.310 --> 15:33.160\n她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家\n\n15:37.183 --> 15:59.154\n辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?\n\n16:06.550 --> 16:33.994\n報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來檢驗能量檢驗能量是不是跟你有關食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要檢驗標準是不是你們\n\n16:35.322 --> 16:39.047\n對嘛你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為\n\n16:50.282 --> 16:59.528\n新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得\n\n17:08.933 --> 17:37.320\n誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?\n\n17:39.278 --> 18:06.131\n報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以\n\n18:06.851 --> 18:26.322\n連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品\n\n18:27.162 --> 18:49.992\n然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置\n\n18:50.692 --> 19:09.034\n但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費\n\n19:10.396 --> 19:19.220\n那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境\n\n19:27.063 --> 19:46.309\n先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面\n\n19:48.050 --> 19:49.351\n對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有\n\n20:16.903 --> 20:26.406\n謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?\n\n20:46.459 --> 20:46.579\n林淑芬議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.999,"end":10.361,"text":"主席各位大家午安是請我們這個邱部長部長最近一次的行政院的毒品防治會報你剛才也承認說你沒有出席嗎那天是這個次長代理出席了最近一次是6月17號那下一次你會出席嗎"},{"start":34.713,"end":48.425,"text":"只要行程不衝突的話我會以這個為最優先那我們今天講說當天6月的那一次報告主責機關是食藥署那我們再問一下署長署長你對於毒品鑑驗的業務應該已經熟悉上手了吧你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":61.442,"end":61.782,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":88.578,"end":102.385,"text":"啊?你不知道?不清楚?無法回答?報告委員,那個是我們在新世代反毒的那個綱領下面的那我問你到底是不是主責,責成就是你要去負責?"},{"start":104.232,"end":121.035,"text":"你知道6月17號你們的行政院毒品防治會報的主要報告機關是由食藥署署長當時的吳秀梅負責主題是驗毒策略驗毒的主責就是他就是你你不知道"},{"start":123.339,"end":131.161,"text":"天吶天吶難怪會2266署長你從上任到現在你在9月初還安排了專訪談來談去都是談5月的缺藥都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題然後提到食安的議題就是說這是我自己的弱項我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題然後關於食安事件你的同仁"},{"start":148.686,"end":164.252,"text":"包括保齡查釋事件是人家醫院通報醫院機敏的然後關於蘇丹統事件地方政府通報到中央來也是無動於衷的當初所以你認為交給你自己是弱項交給你同仁你同仁是這個樣子"},{"start":165.632,"end":184.238,"text":"那食藥署最大的問題就是抓不到鬼然後預算經費卻花最多花很多在食安預警上面但沒有預警的功能失去預警的功能然後發生食安事件的時候你們往往都是慢半拍的所以在這個專訪裡面啊你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源你要去幫台灣的藥品開發廠商學藉利用這些資源打世界盃顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品"},{"start":194.881,"end":222.611,"text":"要髒要慘但我們看到你這一篇專欄上任兩個月以後還只能談發生過的事情根本沒有談到未來願景也沒有談到制度上的調整你在7月1號上任的時候你在臉書上說你要扛起責任你要扛起責任帶領食藥署大破大立聚焦在制度的建立不要讓食藥署的危機逃過新的鬼然後得過且過"},{"start":224.622,"end":239.102,"text":"沒有檢討和建立因應制度,面對下一次危機依然束手無策,讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿在這裡,可是,我們自將期許你,希望你好好的用心在你食藥署的業務上,"},{"start":240.163,"end":261.465,"text":"而今天做這個新興毒品的這個防治的這個問題那看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚那我們更希望你喔你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣喔你們署內的同仁那些組長的四位素餐的組長沒有改革沒有換人"},{"start":263.067,"end":263.287,"text":"組長你回答啊"},{"start":294.761,"end":322.537,"text":"報告委員這個我要部長你知道他們院內他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落而且這樣子解讀的你知道嗎你有責任喔保證我覺得也肯定莊署長沒有我不需要你肯定現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休他會扛起責任他言之鑿鑿的你可以保證嗎如果1月退休我們沒有啦他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天"},{"start":323.68,"end":340.655,"text":"阿賴之中耍行耍行奉獻到最後一天也真是慘勒我覺得他在部內所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握了狀況所有同仁都認為他要等退休我告訴你我今天重點不在那裡我問一下新興毒品好了阿賴"},{"start":345.119,"end":361.789,"text":"我現在要問你新興毒品你不要再在那裡幫他查紙抹粉啦我頭一次看到這個部長在幫署長查紙抹粉通常都是署長幫部長查紙抹粉的我現在不談這個啦談新興毒品啦大家都知道尤其是行政院毒品防治匯報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長他有報告啊"},{"start":366.933,"end":381.847,"text":"這個根據法醫研究所的統計去年Alpha-PIHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻一堆明脂都混合在香煙當中使用然後呢法務部檢察司的司長"},{"start":388.002,"end":399.526,"text":"高檢署去年11月在氣毒督導小組匯報成立《毒品先驅原料預警平台》由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質"},{"start":401.147,"end":414.717,"text":"毒品先驅原料的物質提到該平台中進行預警有效列管依託明指、美託明指、易柄、帕指等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的?是什麼東西的原料?"},{"start":424.224,"end":427.047,"text":"我不是在問你這個 我說它是作為什麼使用的 這個本來是做什麼的原料"},{"start":443.121,"end":446.103,"text":"有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐童防治作為"},{"start":469.642,"end":473.804,"text":"製毒原料假冒原料要進口,或者是藥品的原料進口?跟你有關吧?那問你合成卡系統?合成卡系統?"},{"start":489.38,"end":502.223,"text":"跟你有沒有相關?你們食藥署濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計卡西銅類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅高檢署也發佈新聞稿97年到113年2月我國共檢出193種的新興毒品其中59種為合成卡西銅類而這個裡面喵喵你知道嗎?署長你點頭知道你喵喵是什麼?"},{"start":517.513,"end":524.321,"text":"他是108年以後占新興毒品檢出件數的第一名而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件平均年齡幾歲你知道嗎?"},{"start":540.065,"end":557.003,"text":"30歲,然後其中檢出了新興毒品成分排序,喵喵從110年開始期,她就是第一名,吃多吃到死的喵喵是第一名。另外值得關注的是Alpha PIHP成為第三級毒品,也是合成卡系統。"},{"start":558.865,"end":580.242,"text":"然後都是煙草俗稱彩虹煙啦彩虹煙用什麼名義偷渡進口你知道嗎進口啦不要講偷渡啦合法進來都用什麼名義進來你知道嗎原料很多卡西銅類法務委員這個我不清楚我要再去查他們用茶葉茶葉申報入境是不是跟你有相關茶葉煙草茶葉好"},{"start":587.594,"end":602.276,"text":"我們現在講說這種東西一直彌陀大家知道是麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑短暫麻醉劑如果不是偷渡走私的話那是不是也是跟你們管理有關從上游的管理原料跟你是不是都有關"},{"start":603.737,"end":622.628,"text":"報告委員那個伊托米子事實上他是一個很老的那個我現在問你是不是你管的啦假裝成藥物的原料然後進口然後卻濫用流向不明去作毒是不是跟你有關報告委員我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥"},{"start":623.608,"end":640.435,"text":"現在有篩檢到跟現在大量做成毒品混在毒品當中是兩件事我在問你的是不是你邊境管理跟你有關那除非你告訴我走私的居多合法進口的居少你有沒有辦法證明這樣子嗎"},{"start":643.77,"end":664.379,"text":"所以我是要告訴你新興毒品的問題跟你除了這個煙毒的鑑識鑑驗以外你從上游你就有很多責任更不要講到下游還有國建署的責任保證都是你管的你管很多不是只有法務部要去理你而已"},{"start":666.738,"end":669.703,"text":"昨天的聯合報也披露警方從7月到9月同一期間7、8、9、3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈違法案件681件是衛福部的2.3倍啊衛福部的啊"},{"start":682.802,"end":691.925,"text":"數字我們要看衛福部對非法新興煙品的怠惰和失職這個在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了刑事局統計警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油一共1415件送驗含大麻案件佔了52.6含喵喵的有27.9上司煙彈是一托米子的有6.1"},{"start":710.712,"end":732.498,"text":"含安非他命的是0.6這個都是混合兩種以上的毒品保定你有觀察到說這個新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎第一個成分變化快速第二適用年齡降低第三混合使用的比例逐漸升高那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎你們一年查緝幾件主動去查"},{"start":739.094,"end":745.318,"text":"我們電子煙的查緝在去年查緝的是30萬件今年查緝的是23萬件是查緝你們查貨"},{"start":755.902,"end":780.249,"text":"對,總計兩年,從去年3月22號到今年9月30號好,我這裡看到資料來,電子菸茶器50萬件,僅處罰1247件一年前9月,地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件那這個平均一天不到兩件甚至2月只有4件7到9月的暑假有294件所以這個人家認為說,這個連"},{"start":784.531,"end":811.085,"text":"連這個法務部．連警方查的都比你們多啊當然我知道不好查啊但你們有沒有重點有沒有在查啊有跟委員報告我們跟地方這邊會跟縣市衛生局這邊來共同溝通怎麼加強這個查緝的力道跟採儲的加速你們查緝的量跟查貨的查到不法的量跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大"},{"start":813.246,"end":816.207,"text":"你們怎麼查?30萬件你們查?50萬件怎麼查?我們這個查緝的狀況你們怎麼查?47萬件是實體的是直接實體查緝的你有辦法查到47萬件怎麼查的?47萬次對啦47萬次你資料送來我有點懷疑你一個行政部門中央地方加起來有辦法去查47萬件嗎?"},{"start":837.871,"end":838.051,"text":"就是說這個"},{"start":866.092,"end":872.46,"text":"部長或署長新興煙毒品的查緝工作說明你們在擬定的落差裡面有什麼困難?擬定的這個策略跟執行面的落差你們到底遇到什麼困難?你有要報告嗎?"},{"start":884.529,"end":896.964,"text":"報言這個好我先講一下先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部我知道啦毒品不是啦我當然知道但是呢我在問你們部長啊你可以叫你部長回答"},{"start":899.031,"end":904.696,"text":"等一下就跟署長相關的我想政府部門是不然我看你不要說你也說不出來我直接跟你說啦我直接講2023年的台灣藥物濫用學會他有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防治其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包茶氣困境的研究"},{"start":920.31,"end":933.16,"text":"她深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗而且邀請了新興毒品混合包、相關查緝、檢驗、藥理等5位專家"},{"start":937.183,"end":959.154,"text":"辦理了焦點團體訪談以瞭解新興毒品的混合包、查緝困境的整體情境脈絡瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰然後提出了具體建議人家是這樣子然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考請問一下來石巷署署長有跟你們相關的嗎?有跟你們相關的嗎?人家訂出來在那裡你們看了嗎?"},{"start":966.55,"end":993.994,"text":"報告委員．我沒有看到那有沒有其他人看到．沒有．好我．連這種都無動於衷來 我直接跟你報告好了人家做出來 檢驗能量 檢驗能量是不是跟你有關 食藥署那個剛剛那個毒品的檢驗不是我們 我們是對認證實驗室是由我．比如說報告檢驗方法是不是你們檢驗方法檢驗方法是不是你們要 檢驗標準是不是你們"},{"start":995.322,"end":999.047,"text":"對嘛 你沒有鑑驗方法你沒有標準程序訂定他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊所以你是最上游的欸你鑑驗 鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境因為"},{"start":1010.282,"end":1019.528,"text":"新鮮毒品混合包的特色第一個為了逃避法規經常會變化混合包成分的化學式造成檢驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出而且檢驗機器的新舊檢驗標準品的取得與否檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得"},{"start":1028.933,"end":1057.32,"text":"誰要負責給?連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分檢驗的結果,檢驗的能量能否即使趕上新興毒品變化的速度,攸關整體新興毒品混合包、茶器跟主角毒品的犯罪成效。現在來了,成分變化迅速,相關你的法令、你的檢驗方法、你的標準,你定得出來敢得上這種變化嗎?你可以嗎?"},{"start":1059.278,"end":1086.131,"text":"報告委員我們現在大概已知的標準品現在食藥署通通都有準備而且應該青菜公共欸人家這一個這一個要濫用學會的指出了你們成分變化迅速相關法令管制不足三個月召開一次毒品審議委員會然後查緝到了疑似的新興毒品但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質所以"},{"start":1086.851,"end":1106.322,"text":"連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪而且受驗與檢驗能量及法令你的檢驗標準它變化成分就會不一樣所以這個法規化學是一直不斷的變化連起訴都沒有辦法也沒有辦法說它是一個劣管毒品"},{"start":1107.162,"end":1129.992,"text":"然後呢我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊所以你對新興毒品的辨識、知能及工具不足然後出塞的柿子啊這個有很多的限制很多偽陽性、偽陰性那你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足也不夠當然這個拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置"},{"start":1130.692,"end":1149.034,"text":"但是呢新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力辨識能力不足第二個你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足然後這個要透過系統化的培訓要更專業然後第三個經費"},{"start":1150.396,"end":1159.22,"text":"那建驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的新興毒品的多樣性變異性使得建驗標準品難以取得再來新興毒品的資料庫的建制困境"},{"start":1167.063,"end":1186.309,"text":"先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足會導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物所以在這個圖影響資料庫當中的資料的完整性鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考還有質譜技術的運用而你在這個裡面"},{"start":1188.05,"end":1189.351,"text":"對於這個原物料上游的管控都是你們有關,並不是沒有"},{"start":1216.903,"end":1226.406,"text":"謝謝委員的指教,我想我們一定這樣結束很簡單,時間夠,雖然是這樣時間夠,但是你說這樣你都很簡單,做補充跟做輸出太簡單了你這樣子都太簡單了啦你的輸出要注意啦,什麼都搞不清楚了你這個是口號是自理的不嗎?口號是自理嗎?"},{"start":1246.459,"end":1246.579,"text":"林淑芬議員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":939,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時20分）主席、各位、大家午安。是不是請我們邱部長上台備詢？"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，最近一次的行政院的毒品防制會報，你剛才也承認說你沒有出席，那天是次長代理出席。最近一次是6月17日，那下一次你會出席嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：只要行程不衝突的話，我會以這個為最優先。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我們今天講說，當天6月17日的那一次報告，主責機關是食藥署，那我再問一下署長，署長，你對於毒品鑑驗的業務，應該已經熟悉上手了吧？你知道你是毒品鑑驗的業務主責機關嗎？你知道嗎？你自己不知道喔？還要看旁邊喔？你知不知道你是負責鑑驗的主責機關？你現在還要看旁邊。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：鑑驗的業務不是你負責的嗎？鑑驗的業務不是你負責的嗎？不是喔？你不知道，不清楚，無法回答？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，那個是我們在新世代反毒策略綱領下面的……"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你，你到底是不是主責的？就是你要去負責。你知道6月17日你們的行政院毒品防制會報的主要報告機關是由當時食藥署署長吳秀梅負責，主題是驗毒策略，驗毒的主責就是他，就是你，你不知道喔？天啊！天啊！難怪會「2266」。署長，你從上任到現在，你在9月初還安排了專訪，談來談去都是談5月的缺藥，都認為修法以後可以改善缺藥議題，然後提到食安的議題，就說：「這是我自己的弱項，我相信我的同仁檢驗強度沒有問題。」然後關於食安事件，你的同仁的表現，包括寶林茶室事件，是人家醫院通報的，然後關於蘇丹紅事件，當初地方政府通報到中央來，你們也是無動於衷的。你認為這是你自己的弱項，所以交給你同仁，你同仁是這個樣子，那食藥署最大的問題，就是抓不到鬼，然後預算經費卻花最多，花很多在食安預警上面，但是沒有預警的功能，失去預警的功能，然後發生食安事件的時候，你們往往都是慢半拍的。在這個專訪裡面，你還說希望藉由食藥署豐富的資源，你要去幫臺灣的藥品開發廠商、學界，利用這些資源打世界盃。顯然你最要緊的是你的藥品、藥商、藥廠，但我們看到你這一篇專訪，上任兩個月以後，還只能談發生過的事情，根本沒有談到未來願景，也沒有談到制度上的調整。你在7月1日號上任的時候，你在臉書上說你要扛起責任，你要扛起責任，帶領食藥署大破大立，聚焦在制度的建立，不要讓食藥署的危機「頭過身就過」，然後得過且過，沒有檢討和建立因應制度，面對下一次的危機，依然束手無策，讓人民無法問責。你言之鑿鑿，可是我們是這樣期許你，希望你好好地用心在你食藥署的業務上，而今天討論新興毒品的防制這個問題，看起來你好像還是搞不太清楚。你們署內瀰漫了一股風氣，你們署內的同仁，那些尸位素餐的組長沒有改革，沒有換人，然後還是同過去一樣就算了，署內有一股風氣，說你只是來食藥署過水，等明年1月你滿65歲，你就要退休，因此署內士氣低落。我現在再問你，剩下3個月，明年1月你就要退休嗎？然後你不要像回答媒體講的，說操之不在我，這是什麼態度啊！我們是要讓你來這裡過水，過一個好的位置然後退休的嗎？署長，你回答啊。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個我要……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你知道他們署內的同仁士氣都是這樣子低落，而且是這樣子解讀的，你知道嗎？你有責任喔！部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我絕對肯定莊署長自就任以後……"],["林委員淑芬：我不需要你肯定，現在你來跟我保證他1月不會退休，他會扛起責任。他言之鑿鑿，你可以保證嗎？如果他1月退休，我們怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：他有提到他願意為國家奉獻到最後一天。"],["林委員淑芬：如果這種「散形」、「散形」的人奉獻到最後一天也很慘。"],["邱部長泰源：不會啦。我覺得他在部內，所有的同仁都認為他很快就掌握狀況。"],["林委員淑芬：所有同仁都認為他要等退休。"],["邱部長泰源：他以一個藥學院的院長……"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，我今天的重點不在那裡啦。我問一下新興毒品好了。"],["邱部長泰源：藥學院的院長，他是可以繼續做下去，所以他到公務機關，其實是為國家……"],["林委員淑芬：來啦，我現在問你新興毒品，你不要在這裡幫他擦脂抹粉，我頭一次看到部長在幫署長擦脂抹粉，通常都是署長幫部長擦脂抹粉的。我現在不談這個啦，談新興毒品啦。大家都知道，尤其是行政院毒品防制會報裡面高檢署張斗輝檢察長報告，根據法醫研究所的統計，去年α-PiHP跟目前的毒品包括大麻、依托咪酯，都混合在香菸當中使用，法務部檢察司司長也有提到，所以高檢署去年11月在緝毒督導小組會報成立毒品先驅原料預警平台，由各查緝機關查緝過程發現新興可能作為毒品先驅原料的物質，不是毒品本身而已喔，而是毒品先驅原料的物質，提到該平台中進行預警，有效列管依托咪酯、美托咪酯、異丙帕酯等毒品。司長，我要問你，依托咪酯、美托咪酯、異丙帕酯等毒品的先驅原料都是用來做什麼的？是什麼東西的原料？"],["郭司長永發：可能都是卡西酮的原料，如果有這個來做為毒品的先驅原料的話，我們都會列為四級……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在問你這個啦。我說它是做為什麼使用的，這個本來是做什麼的原料？卡西酮、依託咪酯。"],["郭司長永發：只有一些是工業原料，也有的是醫療的。"],["林委員淑芬：那醫療就跟食藥署有關喔。吳秀梅在行政院會報裡面就有講啦！我沒有帶圖來，沒關係，署長，你知道什麼東西的列管是你的責任，署內的責任嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這個是有醫療用途，或者是有證實是有科學上用途的，就屬於我們……"],["林委員淑芬：製毒原料假冒原料藥或藥品的原料進口，跟你有關吧？那我問你，合成卡西酮跟你有沒有相關？你們食藥署的濫用藥物檢驗通報系統統計，卡西酮類毒品名列新興毒品檢驗種類的前茅，高檢署也有發布新聞稿，97年到113年2月，我國共檢出193種新興毒品，其中59種為合成卡西酮類，而這裡面的喵喵，你知道嗎？署長，你點頭。表示你知道喵喵是什麼。"],["莊署長聲宏：我知道這個喵喵是毒品，是卡西酮類，結構我還要回去確認。"],["林委員淑芬：它是108年以後新興毒品檢出件數的第一名，而且在108年到112年跟新興毒品相關的死亡案件中，死者平均年齡幾歲，你知道嗎？30歲，然後其中檢出的新興毒品成分排序，從110年開始，喵喵就是第一名。吸毒死掉的人數中，用喵喵的是第一名。另外值得關注的是，α-PiHP成為第三級毒品，也是合成卡西酮，然後都是製成菸草，俗稱彩虹菸，彩虹菸用什麼名義進口，你知道嗎？都用什麼名義合法進來，你知道嗎？原料，很多，卡西酮類。"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，這個我不清楚，我再去查。"],["林委員淑芬：他們用茶葉的名義申報入境，是不是跟你有相關？我們現在講說這種東西，依托咪酯被大家知道的是當短暫麻醉劑，如果不是偷渡走私的話，那是不是也是跟你們管理有關？從上游的管理原料，跟你是不是都有關？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，依托咪酯事實上是一個很老的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你是不是你管的啦。假裝成藥物的原料，然後進口，然後卻濫用，流向不明去做毒，是不是跟你有關？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們現在在邊境有篩檢藥物的原料藥。"],["林委員淑芬：現在有篩檢到，跟現在大量做成毒品、混在毒品當中是兩件事，我在問你的邊境管理是不是跟你有關。"],["莊署長聲宏：有。"],["林委員淑芬：那除非你告訴我走私的居多，合法進口的居少，你有辦法證明這樣子嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我是要告訴你，新興毒品的問題，除了驗毒的鑑識、鑑驗以外，從上游你就有很多責任，更不要講到下游還有國健署的責任。部長，都是你管的，你管很多，不是只有法務部要去抓而已。昨天的聯合報也披露，警方從7月到9月同一期間，在7、8、9這3個月查獲了喪屍煙彈相關違法案件681件，是衛福部的2.3倍啊。我們來看衛福部對非法新興菸品的怠惰和失職，在昨天的國教行動聯盟人家也講了，根據刑事局統計，警方從今年1到8月查獲電子煙彈、煙油，一共1,415件，送驗含大麻案件占了52.6%，含喵喵的有27.9%，喪屍煙彈含依托咪酯的，有6.1%，含安非他命的是0.6%，都是混合兩種以上的毒品。部長，你有觀察到新興毒品的特色是什麼嗎？第一個，成分變化快速。第二，施用年齡降低。第三，混合使用的比例逐漸升高，那你知道這個對你們的考驗是什麼嗎？你們一年查緝幾件？主動去查的有幾件？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們電子煙的查緝，在去年查緝的時候，是30萬件，今年查緝的是23萬件。"],["林委員淑芬：你們查獲？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。總計兩年，從去年3月22日到今年9月30日……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我這裡看到資料，電子煙查緝50萬件，僅處罰1,247件，今年前9月地方跟中央衛生局裁罰了639件，平均一天不到兩件，甚至2月只有4件，7到9月的暑假有294件，所以人家認為連警方查的都比你們多。當然我知道不好查，但是重點是你們有沒有在查。"],["賈副署長淑麗：有，跟委員報告，我們在地方會跟縣市衛生局來共同溝通，看怎麼加強查緝的力道跟裁處的加速……"],["林委員淑芬：你們查緝的量跟查到不法的量，跟警方的落差怎麼這麼大？你們怎麼查？30萬件你們怎麼查？50萬件你們怎麼查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們查緝的狀況……"],["林委員淑芬：你們怎麼查？"],["賈副署長淑麗：47萬件是實體的，就是直接實體查緝的。"],["林委員淑芬：你有辦法查到47萬件，怎麼查的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是47萬次。"],["林委員淑芬：對，是47萬次。你資料送來，我很懷疑，你一個行政部門，中央和地方加起來，有辦法去查47萬件嗎？47萬次是什麼意思？"],["賈副署長淑麗：比如說，我們今天去查緝的時候，有電子煙跟加熱菸的時候，我們會併查。"],["林委員淑芬：你所有的詳細資料拿來，我是懷疑。現在我在講，食藥署的驗毒重點策略跟新興毒品混合包的查緝，實務上的確有一些落差。抱歉，我知道我講太久，我儘快好不好？部長、署長，新興毒品的查緝工作，說明你們在擬訂的策略跟執行面的落差，你們到底遇到什麼困難，你有辦法報告嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，我先講一下，先要說明的是毒品其實不是我們衛福部……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，毒品不是啦，我當然知道，但是我在問你們部長，你可以叫你部長回答，等一下就跟署長相關的……"],["邱部長泰源：我想政府部門是一體的……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我看你也不要說了，你也說不出來，我直接告訴你，我直接講，2023年臺灣藥物濫用學會有一本刊物叫藥物濫用防制，其中一篇講到新興毒品混合包查緝困境的研究，深度訪談了6位第一線的查緝人員，以及6位新興毒品混合包施用、販運的親身體驗，而且邀請了新興毒品混合包相關查緝、鑑驗、藥理等5位專家，辦理了焦點團體訪談，以瞭解新興毒品混合包查緝困境的整體情境脈絡，瞭解第一線查緝人員跟新興毒品混合包的困境和挑戰，然後提出了具體建議。人家是這樣子，然後才能夠供我們做政策改善及訂定的參考。請問一下，食藥署署長，有跟你們相關的嗎？有跟你們相關的嗎？人家訂出來在那裡，你們看了嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：委員，我沒有看到過。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那有沒有其他人看到？沒有。連這樣都無動於衷。我直接跟你報告好了，人家做出來，鑑驗能量是不是跟你有關？食藥署。"],["莊署長聲宏：毒品的鑑驗不是我們，認證實驗室是由我們……"],["林委員淑芬：你胡說八道！檢驗方法是不是你們？檢驗方法、鑑驗方法是不是你們？鑑驗標準是不是你們？"],["莊署長聲宏：委員，是。因為剛剛……"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！你沒有鑑驗方法啊！你沒有標準程序訂定，他們怎麼去做鑑驗啊？所以你是最上游的，鑑驗能力上也會造成查緝的困境，因為新興毒品的混合包的特色，第一個，為了逃避法規，經常會變化混合包成分的化學式，造成鑑驗單位在檢驗上未必能夠有效檢出，而且鑑驗機器的新舊、檢驗標準品的取得與否也有影響。檢驗標準品是誰要負責取得？是誰要負責給？"],["莊署長聲宏：我們要負責。"],["林委員淑芬：連檢驗標準品的取得與否都影響毒品成分鑑驗的結果，鑑驗的能量能否及時趕上新興毒品變化的速度，攸關整體新興毒品混合包查緝跟阻絕毒品犯罪的成效，成分變化迅速，你的法令、你的鑑驗方法、你的標準，你訂得出來，趕得上這種變化嗎？你可以嗎？"],["莊署長聲宏：報告委員，現在已知的標準品，現在食藥署統統都有準備，而且應該是……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，藥物濫用學會指出了你們的困境，包含成分變化迅速、相關法令管制不足，3個月召開一次毒品審議委員會，然後查緝到了疑似新興毒品，但法令尚未規範這些毒品的物質，所以連在法律上都沒有辦法定罪，而且受限於檢驗能量及法令，你的鑑驗標準，它變化成分，結果就會不一樣，因為這個法規，所以化學式一直不斷地變化，連起訴都沒有辦法，也沒有辦法說它是一個列管毒品，然後我們檢驗的儀器檢驗出來也沒有用啊。所以你對新興毒品的辨識知能及工具不足，然後初篩的試紙有很多的限制，很多偽陽性、偽陰性，然後你的拉曼光譜儀也無法滿足，也不夠，當然拉曼光譜儀各單位要自行去配置，但是新興毒品因為有混合包變化迅速，所以沒有辦法讓第一線的查緝人員有效提升軟硬體實力，辨識能力不足。第二個，你們連查緝人員的專業辨識能力也不足，這個要透過系統化的培訓，要更專業。第三個是經費，鑑驗標準品的缺乏是人家公認的，新興毒品的多樣性、變異性，使得鑑驗標準品難以取得。再來，新興毒品資料庫的建置困境，先驅化合物跟源頭製造原料的鑑定經驗不足，導致無法辨識原料跟先驅物，影響資料庫中資料的完整性。鑑定新興毒品的成分需要標準品的參考，還有質譜技術的運用，而你在這個部分趕不上犯罪的集團。署長，照你們這樣下去，部長，照你們這樣下去，跟你們食藥署有關的擴增拉曼光譜儀、強化邊境快篩、續購先驅物、建置新興毒品質譜圖庫資訊、監控民間檢驗機構的能力、對於原物料上游的管控，都是你們有關，並不是沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的指教。我想我們一定努力來做……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣結束很簡單，時間到了，雖然是這樣，時間到了，但是你說這樣，你們都很簡單，當部長和當署長太簡單了。"],["主席：部長，你去辦公室跟他報告啦，專題報告啦。"],["邱部長泰源：針對委員剛剛指教的……"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣子都太簡單了啦。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的署長要注意啦，什麼都搞不清楚了。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會提升我們的力量來打擊不法。"],["林委員淑芬：你用口號治你的部嗎？是口號式治理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定努力！一定努力！"],["林委員淑芬：說這幾句話就可以當部長，我也會！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，部長辛苦了。","我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有2案，很快，請一併宣讀。（參閱附錄）","一、","案由：吸毒者因無法正常控制情緒或行為，可能忽視或虐待子女。生活不穩定的吸毒父母容易給孩子帶來安全感缺失，甚至陷入暴力或性虐待的環境。當父母經濟遇到問題，生活、情緒壓力大，虐待就容易發生。","請衛福部在一周內，提交家長施用毒品與發生兒虐的相關統計數據及防治作為之書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛環委員會。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　王育敏　　","二、","案由：衛福部預告「菸品禁止使用之添加物」草案，將禁止4種口味，改為禁止27種添加物，社會各界認為讓漏洞更大，衛福部也在媒體表示，逐步擴大加味菸禁止項目是全球趨勢，然做法與美國、歐盟是否相同？國健署與歐美國家進行多次會議，法案預告期至113年10月7日止，關於國健署開過幾次會議？有關的會議記錄在哪？","爰提案，針對上述疑問，請國健署在一周內，將本次預告的決策理由、選擇這27項添加物的依據是什麼？以及政策影響評估有哪些層面？提交書面報告給立法院社會福利及衛環委員會。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　陳菁徽"],["主席：請問第1案，行政單位有無意見？"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好。第2案有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有意見，遵照辦理。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-5","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","王育敏","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王正旭","劉建國","羅廷瑋","林淑芬","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","賴士葆","涂權吉","李坤城","洪孟楷","林國成","張雅琳","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","徐富癸","楊曜","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳瑩","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、法務部、內政部、財政部、教育部列席就「有關新興煙毒品防制及強化虐\n童防治作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00001"}}}